Golden State is the Evolution of SSOL

[Wannabe MEP]

This has been mentioned elsewhere, but I think it deserves it's own thread.

Pace & space...4-out...lots of pick-&-roll...tons of 3-point shooting...starting PF is under 6'7"...PG-centric offense...

• Nash => Curry
• Marion => Draymond
• Barbosa => Barbosa
• Bunch of good shooter/slasher/defender wings => Bunch of good shooter/slasher/defender wings

_____________________________________________________________________________________________

Crucial differences:

• Amare => Bogut. Lose something on offense, but HUGE gains on D.
• ??? => Iggy. Between Draymond and Iggy, it's like having two Marions. We definitely had some good defensive wings over the years, but we never had two absolute bruisers like Draymond and Iggy.

[RunDogGun]

The big difference I see is Mike hated to foul it slowed the game down, where GS whole team has no problem with it. If the SSOL was allowed to foul like that and get away with it, we'd have a few rings during that time.

[bwgood77]

Plus Iggy is a great passer, so when he starts, Curry can play off ball, and when he comes in with the second unit, it gives them a second good facilitator with him and Livingston.

[RunDogGun]

Plus Iggy is a great passer, so when he starts, Curry can play off ball, and when he comes in with the second unit, it gives them a second good facilitator with him and Livingston.

They also use most of the roster, and have two starters that can come off the bench. The depth is big, because it gives Kerr some freedom to rest players if needed.

[Revived]

We didn't have a 2nd perimeter star player to compliment Nash like Curry has with Klay Thompson either. Closest was probably Joe Johnson but that was only for few years.

His stats aren't great but he's been a huge reason why other guys on GSW is getting wide open shots because Cavs don't let Klay out of sight and stick to him like glue on pick and rolls or pick and pops and even off screens.

[bwgood77]

We didn't have a 2nd perimeter star player to compliment Nash like Curry has with Klay Thompson either. Closest was probably Joe Johnson but that was only for few years.

His stats aren't great but he's been a huge reason why other guys on GSW is getting wide open shots because Cavs don't let Klay out of sight and stick to him like glue on pick and rolls or pick and pops and even off screens.

Joe Johnson was only one year with Nash, oh what could have been...

[ATTL]

If could have kept Joe it would have been huge to have that other creator on offense. When Nash was out or officials allowed defenders to get too into him we struggled.
GS has multiple players that create for themselves and teammates. They are much better passing than we were outside Nash.

And yes, I can see the comparison. Like was said , they have better and more perimeter defenders than we had, I'd say our top 3 players were better than their top 3 but after that they have several other good players on their team.

[thamadkant]

Warriors are far deeper...
Iguadala

Barbosa
Livingston
Lee

OFF the bench... geez.

[Cutter]

Yeah, but the Warriors aren't facing the Spurs prime years or Lakers prime years like SSOL Suns did. GSW is playing against an extremely injury depleted Cavs team.

[bwgood77]

Warriors are far deeper...
Iguadala

Barbosa
Livingston
Lee

OFF the bench... geez.

And of course is Sarver wasn't new and we didn't sign Q, we could have extended JJ and drafted Iggy. Oh well.

[TASTIC]

I would LOVE Iggy on this team next year at SF instead of Tucker. Would allow Knight to shoot more from deep as well

[jcsunsfan]

The GS team is much more intelligent top to bottom and there is a willingness to sacrifice personal agenda to win. I don't know if that is coaching or what but Marion, JJ and to a lesser extent Amare were unwilling to do that.

[thamadkant]

Bogut signing was HUGE... he was critical in beating Rockets and Grizzlies..
Iguadala signing was HUGE... he made James inefficient (huge +/- stats), Finals MVP afterall.
Barnes stepping up after a down season was also HUGE... Kerr got through to him, knew how to use him.
Green becoming a good overall player was HUGE too...

Warriors losing was so unlikely... the team is STACKED to the brim.

Only the great prime teams of the Spurs (2014 Spurs count too), Pistons 2004, Dynasty Bulls, 2001 Lakers would beat them in a series, out of all the champions in the last 20 years.

[RunDogGun]

One thing is for sure, people can stop saying small ball can't win a chip.

[letsgosuns]

One thing is for sure, people can stop saying small ball can't win a chip.

It goes both ways though. Like Kerr said last night, it is about balance. The Warriors can play big and small and they do both as well or better than anyone in the league. If they need to go big against teams with centers, they have Bogut. If they need to go small against other teams, they take Bogut out. The SSOL Suns could only play small.

Kurt Thomas was nothing like Bogut. Neither was anyone else they had. That is a major difference. If the Suns had a defensive center like Bogut (even though he is terrible offensively), they would have been able to play both ways too. However D'antoni hated players like Bogut who were all defense and no offense. Bogut is such a bad offensive player and D'antoni would have never signed him. That was the biggest downfall with D'antoni. Outside of not developing a bench or concentrating on defense, D'antoni's personnel moves were always predicated on making sure the players out there could shoot the ball. The one defensive minded center they had who could not shoot was Steven Hunter and he barely played. Like Rasho Nesterovich was not a great offensive player but he served his purpose playing center next to Duncan. D'antoni did not like to play that way. He wanted offensive options at every position.

[thamadkant]

Stoudemire was a beast offensively too, but defensively... Outside of shot blocking... He was so easy to score against.

Warriors have Bogut, who is amazing in protecting the rim... Allowed Warriors to protect the paint against paint-oriented teams.

The Warriots is simply a "complete" version of the SSOL Suns... They have the defenders to make it work in the playoffs.

[Puff]

One thing is for sure, people can stop saying small ball can't win a chip.

It goes both ways though. Like Kerr said last night, it is about balance. The Warriors can play big and small and they do both as well or better than anyone in the league. If they need to go big against teams with centers, they have Bogut. If they need to go small against other teams, they take Bogut out. The SSOL Suns could only play small.

Kurt Thomas was nothing like Bogut. Neither was anyone else they had. That is a major difference. If the Suns had a defensive center like Bogut (even though he is terrible offensively), they would have been able to play both ways too. However D'antoni hated players like Bogut who were all defense and no offense. Bogut is such a bad offensive player and D'antoni would have never signed him. That was the biggest downfall with D'antoni. Outside of not developing a bench or concentrating on defense, D'antoni's personnel moves were always predicated on making sure the players out there could shoot the ball. The one defensive minded center they had who could not shoot was Steven Hunter and he barely played. Like Rasho Nesterovich was not a great offensive player but he served his purpose playing center next to Duncan. D'antoni did not like to play that way. He wanted offensive options at every position.

Just stop the crap

Tell me in detail what players that D'Antoni did not play that could actually play?

Name them while providing the success they had with another coach or another team after they sat on MIke's bench.

We had no draft picks so all Mike had at his disposal were over the hill veterans signed at the league minimum to choose from.

I guess he passed on Raja Rondo, I personally always thought that was a good thing. He was hand full in Boston and was really exposed in Dallas this year. I really doubt that he would have mixed well with our group. How do you think he would fit with that Golden State group? He's available and my guess is that he will have trouble finding a team.

I am sick and tired of the baseless accusations continuously made against him.

The real reason we never won a ring was not and is not Mike D'Antoni. All the blame should pointed towards Sarver. Our talent level was never as good as it was at the end of the 04/05 season, Sarver's 1st year as owner. That is when Joe Johsnon left town and our talent level has never approached that teams level again.

The absolute worst move and there are many to choose from was not somehow someway using that # 6 draft pick that we traded right after he bought the Suns. That alone would have put that team over the top. There is no excuse for that decision and this should not be put on D'Antoni for god's sake. People make it seem like every failure was Mike's fault.

Why in the world would you give Mike the GM job when he had 2 jobs already. The Sun's head coach and offensive coordinator for the Olympic team. Which by the way won a gold medal twice with Mike on board. Dumbass Sarver should have replaced BC with a legit GM not D'Antoni. However other than the Banks mistake I do not know what other mistake MIke made while GM. The problem is that if we had hired a legit GM maybe he would have found some help for the bench that we needed in a big way.

[letsgosuns]

One thing is for sure, people can stop saying small ball can't win a chip.

It goes both ways though. Like Kerr said last night, it is about balance. The Warriors can play big and small and they do both as well or better than anyone in the league. If they need to go big against teams with centers, they have Bogut. If they need to go small against other teams, they take Bogut out. The SSOL Suns could only play small.

Kurt Thomas was nothing like Bogut. Neither was anyone else they had. That is a major difference. If the Suns had a defensive center like Bogut (even though he is terrible offensively), they would have been able to play both ways too. However D'antoni hated players like Bogut who were all defense and no offense. Bogut is such a bad offensive player and D'antoni would have never signed him. That was the biggest downfall with D'antoni. Outside of not developing a bench or concentrating on defense, D'antoni's personnel moves were always predicated on making sure the players out there could shoot the ball. The one defensive minded center they had who could not shoot was Steven Hunter and he barely played. Like Rasho Nesterovich was not a great offensive player but he served his purpose playing center next to Duncan. D'antoni did not like to play that way. He wanted offensive options at every position.

Just stop the crap

Tell me in detail what players that D'Antoni did not play that could actually play?

Name them while providing the success they had with another coach or another team after they sat on MIke's bench.

We had no draft picks so all Mike had at his disposal were over the hill veterans signed at the league minimum to choose from.

I guess he passed on Raja Rondo, I personally always thought that was a good thing. He was hand full in Boston and was really exposed in Dallas this year. I really doubt that he would have mixed well with our group. How do you think he would fit with that Golden State group? He's available and my guess is that he will have trouble finding a team.

I am sick and tired of the baseless accusations continuously made against him.

The real reason we never won a ring was not and is not Mike D'Antoni. All the blame should pointed towards Sarver. Our talent level was never as good as it was at the end of the 04/05 season, Sarver's 1st year as owner. That is when Joe Johsnon left town and our talent level has never approached that teams level again.

The absolute worst move and there are many to choose from was not somehow someway using that # 6 draft pick that we traded right after he bought the Suns. That alone would have put that team over the top. There is no excuse for that decision and this should not be put on D'Antoni for god's sake. People make it seem like every failure was Mike's fault.

Why in the world would you give Mike the GM job when he had 2 jobs already. The Sun's head coach and offensive coordinator for the Olympic team. Which by the way won a gold medal twice with Mike on board. Dumbass Sarver should have replaced BC with a legit GM not D'Antoni. However other than the Banks mistake I do not know what other mistake MIke made while GM. The problem is that if we had hired a legit GM maybe he would have found some help for the bench that we needed in a big way.

Stop with the crap? Are you serious? It is widely known D'antoni did not like defensive minded centers with no offensive game. Perfect example was Marcin Gortat. Remember how the Suns drafted him 57th in 2005 and traded him to the Magic? At the time he supposedly did not have much offensive game and was just a big, bruising center. Don't you think the Suns could have used Gortat for the next five seasons next to Amare? Maybe if D'antoni actually cared about teaching and playing defense, the Suns would have championship banners hanging in the rafters.

Just look at this excerpt and quote from today's article on NBC: http://probasketballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/06/17/steve-kerr-credits-steve-nash-mike-dantoni-for-laying-foundation-that-became-warriors-title/

[But the other key difference between the Warriors and those Suns was defense. D’Antoni got thrashed for the Suns defense, but it was better than people remember — they gave up more points per game because of the pace, but they were a middle-of-the-pack team in terms of points allowed per possession. They were okay.

These Warriors were elite defensively — best in the NBA this season in defensive efficiency.

“Everyone wanted to talk about how many threes we took. We’re the number one defensive team in the league, and that’s what wins,” Kerr said. “You’ve got to be able to score points somehow, but you have to be good defensively. You have to be great defensively to win a title. For whatever reason, that seemed to be overlooked this year. But the combination of the offense and the defense, that matters, and I don’t think people pointed that out enough.”]


Suns defense was okay, middle of the pack. ZERO CHAMPIONSHIPS. Warriors defense was elite and the number one defense in the league. JUST WON THE CHAMPIONSHIP. See the difference. Kerr's exact quote: "You have to be great defensively to win a title."

Mike D'antoni could have signed cheap defensive big guys if he wanted. He could have signed anyone. He did not. That is why there was no one on the bench waiting to play. Because D'antoni did not want them in the first place. Like I said earlier, D'antoni would never want a player like Bogut on the roster because he sucks offensively. That did not fit his scheme. So he wanted nothing to do with those kinds of guys. Remember, D'antoni was the guy that refused to hire Tom Thibodeau when Kerr wanted to bring him in to be the defensive specialist. Instead he went to Boston and they became the best defense in the league and won the title. D'antoni did not teach defense.

[Wannabe MEP]

Suns defense was okay, middle of the pack. ZERO CHAMPIONSHIPS. Warriors defense was elite and the number one defense in the league. JUST WON THE CHAMPIONSHIP. See the difference.

Ummm...yes.

I'm not quite sure who you think is disagreeing with that.

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7pdWAcK6Eh8[/youtube]

Kurt Thomas was nothing like Bogut. Neither was anyone else they had. That is a major difference. If the Suns had a defensive center like Bogut (even though he is terrible [mediocre] offensively), they would have been able to play both ways too.

Also agree with this. We never had a guy like Bogut. That was the problem.

The one defensive minded center they had who could not shoot was Steven Hunter and he barely played.

Oh, come on. He was absolute trash. And D'Antoni still played him as 7th man: more than 1000 minutes, a heckuva lot more than he got before he came to Phoenix.

Like Rasho Nesterovich was not a great offensive player but he served his purpose playing center next to Duncan.

Ridiculous comparison. Nesterovich averaged less than 5 minutes per game in the playoffs.

Mike D'antoni could have signed cheap defensive big guys if he wanted.

He had cheap defensive big guys. He played them appropriately. That was not the problem.

The Amare Stoudemire-D'Antoni pairing was doomed. Stat was incapable of anchoring an elite defense. He was GREAT as the offensive 5 -- terrible as the defensive 5. But he was only mediocre both offensively & defensively as the 4. There was no solution that included Stat. It took too long for the Suns to figure that out.

D'Antoni didn't really have a choice: Stat was the young, athletic star, and he was the best big available. If instead he had an elite defensive big like Bogut/Garnett/Tyson Chandler to REPLACE Stoudemire...

Trade Stat for Garnett, and Nash-Marion-Garnett is among the greatest cores in NBA history. Perhaps the greatest.

I understand the FO's hesitation about giving up Stat, but they absolutely made the wrong choice.

[Wannabe MEP]

The 2006-07 is perhaps the best team in Suns franchise history:

• #1 in SRS. SRS is a pretty straightforward measure from basketball-reference.com that incorporates point differential and strength of schedule.
• #1 in Elo composite, peak, & mean. Elo is very similar to SRS, but with slightly different formulas.
• Best offense in the NBA that season by far, and 13th defensively.

While they didn't go as far in the playoffs as other Suns teams, the conference was (arguably?) the toughest conference in NBA history. That was the only time there were three teams with an SRS > 7.0 in one conference: Spurs, Mavs, & Suns.

By the way, 13th defensively is quite good, especially with Amar'e starting at center...a year after he missed the season because of microfracture surgery.

Think about that compared to teams this season. That's better than the Clippers, who start Blake Griffin and DeAndre Jordan. That's better than Cleveland, OKC, Dallas, Miami, New Orleans, and Toronto. It's better than this year's Suns, despite starting +defenders in Bledsoe-Tucker-Markieff-Len. It's only a couple spots behind the Bulls (11th), with Thibs at coach, Joakim Noah, Jimmy Butler, Pau Gasol, and Taj Gibson.