Are the Suns a treadmill team?

[Revived]

This is the million dollar question. Some think they are because there is not many (or any?) players with "star" potential on the roster. Others say their not because we had like the 2nd or 3rd youngest roster or starting lineup in the NBA and 3 of our starters are 25 and under.

But does rebuilding and not being on the treadmill mean having 25 and younger players with star potential? I'm not sure if anyone on the Suns right now has that.

Watching the playoffs last month and hearing about the young players on other teams with so much potential made me think then...do we have one of the least brightest future/present out of every team in the West?

First off, here are all the teams who are obviously better than Phoenix in the present:

- Spurs- Kawhi Leonard is a Finals MVP and an up and coming superstar. Oh and he's barely 23 and already the best defender in the NBA by far. Plus old big 3 still getting it done.

- Clippers- CP3's getting older but still 30 and Blake is only 26. Both are far better players than anyone on Suns.

- Grizzlies - This is pretty easy. Gasol/Conley. end of story.

- Warriors - Obvious. Steph Curry > Suns roster

- Rockets - Again obvious. James Harden > Suns roster

- Pelicans - Back in 2010, I never would have thought that New Orleans would become good before Phoenix would. Amazing how things have changed. Obvious one again, Davis > Suns.

-Thunder - Obvious.

Now out of all the non playoff teams, lets look at teams which imo have brighter futures:

- Utah - Gobert alone is a better prospect than Suns have and Hood and Favors are both very promising as well. They also have the 5th overall pick Exum who has showed signs of greatness defensively and has ton of potential offensively obviously.

- Minnesota - Wiggins alone gives them the leg up. Kid is gonna be a superstar and nobody's gonna stop him. I was one of those who thought he was all hype in high school and college but he's made me eat my words. LaVine and Mohammad are also looking very promising and if Minnesota blows it up and gets assets for Rubio/Pekovic, their in even better shape for the future. And if that isn't enough, Karl Anthony Towns...'nough said.

- Lakers - Randle + cap space + Russel. 22 year old Clarkson looks promising and they have the lure of being a big market team with a rich history.

- Kings - There's a lot of dysfunction in the FO and ownership. Things seems to have gotten feisty between Cousins and Karl but regardless, 24 year old Cousins is still the best C in the NBA and is lot better than anyone on the Suns. They also have another nice big man prospect in Caulie-Stein.

That leaves Phoenix, Mavs and Denver. Nuggets are super high on 20 year old Nurkic and believe him to the next big thing but I'm not sure he's much better than Len. Mavs have one of the best HCs in the NBA so he will make that roster look respectable enough and Dirk can still ball a bit. If they can revive Matthews career and idk trade for a center, their not gonna be that far behind us but their future looks bleak...at least their fans can hang their hat on winning a chip in the last 5 years.

Its amazing, if you asked me after last season which team has most promising future among non playoff teams in the entire NBA, I would have said Phoenix easily. And now looking at these other rosters, and how our season's gone, its saddening. Eric Bledsoe is probably's our best player and he doesn't seem to have anywhere near the ceiling that the guys on this list has and unlikely to improve all that much from where he is now. Knight is such a wildcard, even when he did good in Milwaukee most of their fans were beyond stoked to see him traded. His time in Phoenix was filed with injuries and didn't look that great when healthy. Len is probably my most favorite player on the Suns (that's more telling of the Suns roster than Len himself but I do like Len) but he seems to have a hard time staying healthy whether its ankle or nose or finger or whatever body part of his. Warren and Goodwin are the only other guys that we can be hopeful about.

We have a Cavs 1st round pick which won't be worth anything at all and then we have the Heat 2017 pick which is iirc top 7 or top 8 protected and chances are Miami will still make the playoffs then since they play in the East assuming Bosh, Dragic and Whiteside stay healthy. That 2021 unprotected pick might have great value but its 5 years down the stretch and won't have that good of value until we get lot closer to 2021.

In the meantime we continue to stay mediocre by missing playoffs and landing the #13 or #14 pick for the 5th time in the last 7 years. Late lottery picks do not do much for me.

BTW there is discussion somewhat on this in the GB if anyone wants to read perhaps objective fans opinion on it

Yup ...good read ....just like I've been saying for the past year ...everyone praised the Suns for "almost getting there" a few seasons ago and now ..a blown draft pick (lakers pick) and two strike outs in a Free Agency later as well as salary dumping young talent ..it has become clear that their team is going no where fast ....


Give Me


OK4
Saric
Noel
5 First round picks (two of which will be top 5)


Over whatever hell PHX thinks their doing ....looks to me that team is on the path of treadmillville

Meh, I'd rather be a Sixers fan (even if this tanking plan turns to crap and Embidd can't hit the court) right now than a Suns fan.

The suns actually had a shot to build a title contending team but they chose to trade away their assets and sign bad contracts Its not their lack of tanking that put them into this position but some bad decisions.

Spoiler:

This part I disagree with. You can build a solid NBA team in much less than 5 years, if that's what the Sixers end up with then the whole thing was a failure.

The goal is not to have a solid team. The goal is to have a TITLE CONTENDING TEAM

Yeah, I'm sure fans of the teams like the Raptors like to brag about how good & solid their team is, when realistically they have 0% chance to win the title. Yeah I said, I would bet the lives of each of my family members & every penny of my life savings, and even say that if the Raptors won the title next year the gods could give me flesh eating bacteria & cancer that a "solid" team like the Raptors will win the title.

THE GOAL IS TO WIN A TITLE. You do that by finding a superstar. Ask 80% of 76ers fans, if it takes 5+ years to develop a team that contend, well then so be it, we'd be fine with that. Because honestly building the way we are, if it ends up working, we'll not only have a great team, we'll have a team that is great with plenty of young players so it will be a perennial contender. The Warriors drafted Curry 6 years ago. They were able to get him because they stunk. They continued to suck, added players like Klay Thompson. Curry develops into a Star, and 6 years later boom they win the title.

Championships teams take time to develop, unless you get extremely lucky, like the Celtics did when they get KG & Allen. But lets not forget, The Celtics were able to get those players because they acquired assetts, cap space, and got the #5 pick in the draft to use as trade bait. They also had Paul Pierce who turned into a star.

Sonics got Durant after sucking ass, they then won like 19 games, YES 19 games! They then got Westbrook, still sucked, they got Harden, and over the course of the next few years they developed into a contender. Because they built through the draft. Now they are perennial contenders.

Every contender has basically built through the draft.

And it's also about high-upside. You don't want to turn into the Suns.

The follow post isn't objective, its from a 76ers fan but yea

I think other execs don't like what Philly is doing because they like to pull the wool over their fans eyes by makign their teams perennial 8-5 seeds, with no hope to win anything except some extra revenue in the playoffs. Good luck Phoenix Sun execs & fans, you have no shot to be a contender down the line because you rushed the process and now have little means to finding a superstar.

Exactly, look, every fan has a right to defend their teams and enjoy watching their hometown team hit the court, but I honestly feel bad for Phoenix fans. They were in a great spot to continue building a good team through the draft. Now they've hit that spot where they are good enough to contend for a playoff spot but miles away from contending. You could praise the Suns FO for signing a guy liek Chandler to help make their team better, but honestly I'd ridicule them, because adding Chandler does nothing to make them a contender and only worstens their future draft position. I don't necessarily blame the Suns FO because this is just how the NBA works.

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1399692#start_here

[Revived]

The Suns started a full-scale rebuild at the same time as the Sixers, but they’ve made so many unpredictable turns that it sometimes appears as if they have no guiding process at all.

Suns owner Robert Sarver admits he’s an impatient sort, but he embraced a rebuild when he empowered GM Ryan McDonough to gut the wretched post–Steve Nash roster ahead of the 2013-14 season. That team nearly blitzed to the playoffs, and the Suns have been prisoners to that shocking success ever since. They’ve veered off the rebuild path, and reached in a half-dozen different directions for missing pieces in an attempt to quickly turn themselves into contenders.

They met with LeBron James’s camp a year ago, and after James held the league hostage for two weeks, the Suns dealt for Isaiah Thomas — tripling down on a point guard experiment that already included Eric Bledsoe and Goran Dragic. When Dragic soured on his role, the Suns dealt him to Miami in exchange for two first-round picks — a killer return for a player on an expiring contract who wanted out, and a classic rebuild move. Phoenix at that moment had the trade chips to compete with anyone for the next disgruntled superstar.

And then, boom, the Suns traded two of their best chips — Thomas and a lightly protected pick from the Lakers — and didn’t have much other than Knight to show for it. Phoenix had dealt two guards, dangled its most enticing bait, and somehow come away with yet another point guard — and no big men to fill out a thin frontcourt.

Four months later, they came out of nowhere to sign Tyson Chandler, opened up cap space with a salary dump in Detroit, and emerged as San Antonio’s only real competition for LaMarcus Aldridge. Aldridge chose the Spurs, and the Suns are now left with Chandler — a 32-year-old center at least seven years older than the rest of the team’s core, and a seven-foot barrier to Alex Len getting the minutes he needs.

So, umm, what the heck are the Suns doing?

“It has been a roller coaster for sure,” McDonough says, chuckling.

“I am not a real patient person,” Sarver says. “You don’t have the kind of success that allows you to buy an NBA team by being a patient person in business. But it’s just a personality trait, and you try not to make decisions based on that.”

Phoenix wagered that the Lakers would upgrade enough this summer to shove that pick toward the bottom of the lottery, but it appears to have lost that part of the bet. They could have waited to pursue Knight in free agency, though prying away restricted free agents is usually a loser’s game. Still: Knight now makes about double Thomas’s salary, raising the possibility that Phoenix effectively traded one point guard and one draft pick for a worse asset at point guard they might have signed anyway and a worse draft pick — the Cleveland first-rounder Phoenix received from Boston in exchange for Thomas.

Phoenix showed it is willing to ditch the whole ‘stay young’ thing, chasing two 30-plus starters the moment free agency opened.

Phoenix swung and mostly missed. They’ll swing again. “One of these years,” McDonough says, “we hope we can win one of these.”

That may never happen. That is the danger of relying on cap space. Good news: The Suns aren’t just relying on cap space. They have a boatload of young players, and the 2018 and 2021 first-rounders coming from Miami loom as both interesting trade chips and key building blocks for the next era of Suns basketball. [B]Those picks could decline in value if Pat Riley’s beachfront pitch seduces another star, raising the possibility that Phoenix will lag behind at least Boston and Philly in the race to build a trade package for the next available star.[/B]

Philly’s owners know this, which is why they trust a process they can shape more than “normal” teams like Phoenix will ever be able to shape free agency or the trade market. But you can only do that if the owners let you.

http://grantland.com/the-triangle/a-tale-of-two-cities-phoenix-and-philly-plot-different-courses-to-contention/

Really good read. Zach Lowe is one of the most well respected writers out there and this basically a comparison of the Suns and 76ers rebuilding strategies.

Lowe doesn't say either one is better than the other, just points out the differences and how they have gone since both teams started the rebuild with a new GM at the same time two years ago.

I'd definitely recommend clicking the link and reading the whole thing.

[hollywood6964]

as far as being compared to other teams with potential, that can go both ways. Ive seen a lot of those mid-bottom teams have solid potential over the years, and still be in "we're young and up and coming" 5 years down the road. As far as phx goes, we are this treadmill team you're talking about. We're going nowhere as currently constructed, besides that back end of the lottery, for years to come. But, we're all also in position to be a very good team if we can pull off a trade or sign a big name f.a. in the next 24 months. As I see it, we either hit a home run in the next couple years, or abandon ship and rebuild. that 2 year window is about all we got going for us, because a big piece accompanied with a decent piece would put us title contention if the right fitment was made; because we are at least a decent, mostly young team, besides tyson, which is why I put a 2 year window on it.

[MrMiyagi]

A young team that wins 18 games is a team with potential. A young team that wins 39 games is a team on the treadmill. There is something wrong with that logic.

[Revived]

A young team that wins 18 games is a team with potential. A young team that wins 39 games is a team on the treadmill. There is something wrong with that logic.

I think the difference people see is in the assets that Philly has vs the assets that Phoenix has. Plus I think many feel Noel and Okafor have more star potential than anyone on the Suns.

Because otherwise, can't you say the same thing about Minnesota and the Suns? No because Wiggins alone would give them the huge edge even if Minnesota won 5 games and the Suns won 45.

[bwgood77]

I can see both sides of the coin. I think we are more like where Houston was before they landed Harden, or Boston before they got Garnett and Allen, where we have a ton of young assets and are probably most equipped to make a trade for a really good player if one was available. I think the fact that LaMarcus considered us when we probably were not really even on his radar before he started FA, is a very good thing. It means we go in and hit hard and make solid pitches and presentations.

I feel pretty good and am excited about our team this year.

Of course I'd be extremely excited if we had Towns, Wiggins, Payne, LaVine, Shabazz, Dieng, etc, but 2-4 of those guys could become busts. I bet at least one of Randle and Russell are busts. I like Utah's team, but none of their bigs have any range....can you win in today's NBA without that? And their guards leave a lot to be desired.

Denver is in big time trouble, and I'd much rather be where we are than Dallas and Portland.

OKC, the Spurs, Clips, Memphis and GS are ahead of us now, but Memphis is getting older and Chris Paul is getting up there in age, as well as much of the Spurs team.

Can OKC stick together? Can Durant and Westbrook stay healthy?

All these teams have question marks except maybe GS.

[MrMiyagi]

A young team that wins 18 games is a team with potential. A young team that wins 39 games is a team on the treadmill. There is something wrong with that logic.

I think the difference people see is in the assets that Philly has vs the assets that Phoenix has. Plus I think many feel Noel and Okafor have more star potential than anyone on the Suns.

Because otherwise, can't you say the same thing about Minnesota and the Suns? No because Wiggins alone would give them the huge edge even if Minnesota won 5 games and the Suns won 45.

Sure thing

[Revived]

A young team that wins 18 games is a team with potential. A young team that wins 39 games is a team on the treadmill. There is something wrong with that logic.

I think the difference people see is in the assets that Philly has vs the assets that Phoenix has. Plus I think many feel Noel and Okafor have more star potential than anyone on the Suns.

Because otherwise, can't you say the same thing about Minnesota and the Suns? No because Wiggins alone would give them the huge edge even if Minnesota won 5 games and the Suns won 45.

Sure thing

You would take Suns roster over Minnesota?

Smart move.

[suns91fan]

You overvalue young players too much. A lot of those "future superstars" are going to end up being average players or busts. Only a handful of them will end up making a true impact in the league. I still remember how T'Wolves were going to become an amazing team few years ago, led by Beasley, Flynn etc. Look how that turned up.

You also seem to undervalue players on the Suns roster. Who can guarantee, that let's say, 23 year old Knight, won't end up being an all-star player? He seems to improve every year, and it's a fair assumption that he will keep getting better. Same goes for Bledsoe, Len etc.

You won't go anywhere unless you try to win. Winning culture is important. Warriors were not a playoff team with Curry in his first three seasons. They ended up with picks 6 (Udoh), 11 (Thompson) and 7 (Barnes). Next two seasons, they ended up with the 6th seed, and had little success in the post season. And just when people started to doubt them (some even proclaim them as a threadmill team), BOOM, they win a championship. They didn't opt out for another rebuild when Curry/Ellis didn't work as planned. They didn't trade Ellis for bunch of draft picks, but for a player that they wanted to win with. They also traded for Iguodala, another move some claimed to be a threadmill move. They also scouted well, and drafted Green in the 2nd round. All of those moves suggested they had a plan, and that plan was to win, not to lose.

[MrMiyagi]

I think the difference people see is in the assets that Philly has vs the assets that Phoenix has. Plus I think many feel Noel and Okafor have more star potential than anyone on the Suns.

Because otherwise, can't you say the same thing about Minnesota and the Suns? No because Wiggins alone would give them the huge edge even if Minnesota won 5 games and the Suns won 45.

Sure thing

You would take Suns roster over Minnesota?

Smart move.

Yes, because I'm taking Bledsoe, Knight, Kieff, Len, Booker, Goodwin and Warren over Towns, Wiggins, Rubio, Dieng, Payne, LaVine and Muhammad. Did I miss any of Minny's "studs"? Their top 5 pick next season?

[bwgood77]

Well, we've been a treadmill team for one year, landing in the same spot, but two summers ago we were projected to win 17 and now we are projected to win 46, so I don't know if I'd say we are going to be a treadmill team going forward or not. The keys are Warren, Len, Bogdan and Booker. Bledsoe and Knight should be solid and maybe could be solid players like Mike Conley or something, and then if those other guys grow into really solid players, we should be looking good.

We landed in a similar spot 3 and 4 years ago, but that was a completely different and older roster. Now we are young and should only get better.

Few would have predicted a guy like Draymond Green would break out, and most wouldn't have thought Klay Thompson would be quite as good as he is.

No one would have predicted the 88 Suns would have broken out like they did. They traded an All Star Nance for a rookie PG, and signed a journey man in Tom Chambers, and I'm sure people said guys like Hornacek and Majerle will never be great players. There were likely many in the doom and gloom department back then too. Then we went from 28 to 55 wins, and swept Magic, Worthy and company the next year. Or maybe we beat them in five.

No one was expecting the 2004-5 Suns either. Many people were pissed we traded Marbury for cap space. I still remember fans being interviewed on tv....saying things like "I don't know what our FO is doing..they seem to have no idea what they are doing."

The Suns always seem to break out into a great team when you least expect it (last year too). Few thought Amare would be a star and I'm sure many thought we were never going to be good always getting the 9th or 10th pick when we got Marion and Amare (JJ was a 10th pick too).

[Revived]

Sure thing

You would take Suns roster over Minnesota?

Smart move.

Yes, because I'm taking Bledsoe, Knight, Kieff, Len, Booker, Goodwin and Warren over Towns, Wiggins, Rubio, Dieng, Payne, LaVine and Muhammad. Did I miss any of Minny's "studs"? Their top 5 pick next season?

Your probably one of very few people on Earth that would take the Suns roster over one that features Andrew Wiggins. So congrats on that. And why is "stud" in quotations? You realize Wiggins is one right?

[suns91fan]

You would take Suns roster over Minnesota?

Smart move.

Yes, because I'm taking Bledsoe, Knight, Kieff, Len, Booker, Goodwin and Warren over Towns, Wiggins, Rubio, Dieng, Payne, LaVine and Muhammad. Did I miss any of Minny's "studs"? Their top 5 pick next season?

Your probably one of very few people on Earth that would take the Suns roster over one that features Andrew Wiggins. So congrats on that. And why is "stud" in quotations? You realize Wiggins is one right?

No he is not, until he proves he is. He had a negative impact to T'Wolves team last year, and that's not what a stud is supposed to do. Now, will he become one? Remains to be seen.

[thamadkant]

1. 76ers are a joke to NOT just the NBA, but Sports. They are the poster boy for TANKING and loop-hole exploiters.
I would rather the Suns way OVER 76ers way 10/10 times.
Okafor is probably the only pick I really envy them for.... the guy is Duncan-esque offensively.

2. Suns ARE in danger of becomming a treadmill team. For me my definition of treadmill is a team GOING NOWHERE even will all the hard work. But they are not there yet, I still see potential in Len, Goodwin, Warren, Knight... Bledsoe a little bit.

But once the Suns are over the cap and the youth are NOT developed properly, I think they will be stuck as a fringe playoff team relying on injuries to sneak into the playoffs.

Sarver apparently wants to make the playoffs ASAP, McD has done very well to NOT give away young players and picks whilst obtaining good players.

IMO, this upcoming season, Suns GM and ownership have a tough decision to make.
- If the Suns are hovering around 0.500 by All-Star break, with a projected 9th or 10th finish. What do you?
Sarver wants to treadmill, he values making the playoffs over acquiring high-value draft picks (top 5). McD? We dont know... but I believe him when he said he wanted a long term solution OVER a short term solution.


The advantage of making 8th seed or higher, is that Suns are an option to Free Agents... just like Aldridge... who DIDNT even consider Knicks nor Lakers. Durant is a free agent and if the Suns believe he has a good enough chance to leave Thunder, then they ensure they are competitive to catch Durant's attention.


For me, give me Magic, Bucks, Jazz etc plan over 76ers.
The NBA need to reform its rules for teams like 76ers... heck Charlotte tanked for 3 years, but realized they were losing out on profits and fan base support... so they are doing their best to make the playoffs. 76ers FO are TESTING die-hard 76ers fans loyalty... but 5 years of bottoming out hurts.

Like I said above, Okafor is the ONLY realy good pick they've done IMO.
Embiid's injuries are a concern, can he survive 82 games a year?
Nerlens Noel is nice, but he was picked 6th in a POOR draft year so I dont blame them... and he looks to be a poor man's Camby.

In the end, 76ers plan will likely backfire.... why would Okafor, Noel re-sign with a team who focuses on getting draft picks over creating a good team. LOOK, I love watching young players DEVELOP to their potential. But 76ers trading away any player over 20 who play well for them because they are making them too competitive is a disgrace... thats my IMO what 76ers did and I'll stick by that.

[thamadkant]

Also people here need to respect Saunders more... the guy doesnt like losing like Hinkie does...

I think he may have done a Spurs by getting Wiggins and Towns.

IMO, their future is brighter than the Suns.. slightly... until I see Towns on the court against NBA big men. If he performs, then I will upgrade their status as SIGNIFICANTLY brighter than the Suns.

Remember they have KG, who is highly competitive and eventually he'll be part of the ownership.

[MrMiyagi]

You would take Suns roster over Minnesota?

Smart move.

Yes, because I'm taking Bledsoe, Knight, Kieff, Len, Booker, Goodwin and Warren over Towns, Wiggins, Rubio, Dieng, Payne, LaVine and Muhammad. Did I miss any of Minny's "studs"? Their top 5 pick next season?

Your probably one of very few people on Earth that would take the Suns roster over one that features Andrew Wiggins. So congrats on that. And why is "stud" in quotations? You realize Wiggins is one right?

As big a stud as MCW and Tyreke Evans until he proves himself further.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=cartemi01&y1=2014&p2=wiggian01&y2=2015&y3=2010&p3=evansty01&p4=&p5=&p6=

I'm not saying Wiggins is a bad player, he won Rookie of the Year and he does look very good, but I'm not anointing him anything yet.

[Two Time]

I don't view the Suns as a treadmill team, with the plan they have put in motion the past few off-seasons. They were fine with a poor season in 13-14, but they did a better job than they anticipated.
They went all out for the best player that could be had in free agency this season, that would have put them among the top teams in the West(opinion of course, as that cant be approved).
They went all in, made some sacrifices, put themselves in contention, and didn't end up taking the player home. Thems the bricks when going for a superstar.
The team is exploring all avenues to improve themselves, I can't fault them for that. They're not ignoring the draft for free agency, and they're not ignoring free agent talent for the draft. I think its a sound method.

[bwgood77]

I don't think people know what treadmill team means on the GB. At least some people. If you consistently get the 5th pick, that is treadmill because you are staying in the same place. If you are consistently first round fodder, that is treadmill. If you are consistently second round fodder, that is treadmill.

We got rid of old guys, got the 5th pick, won 48 games in the toughest WC ever, then had injuries and roster turnover and took a small step back, but got rid of more older guys and went even younger. That is not treadmill

Now if they think we are a future treadmill team? OK, but there are a lot of treadmill teams.

[bwgood77]

Yes, because I'm taking Bledsoe, Knight, Kieff, Len, Booker, Goodwin and Warren over Towns, Wiggins, Rubio, Dieng, Payne, LaVine and Muhammad. Did I miss any of Minny's "studs"? Their top 5 pick next season?

Your probably one of very few people on Earth that would take the Suns roster over one that features Andrew Wiggins. So congrats on that. And why is "stud" in quotations? You realize Wiggins is one right?

No he is not, until he proves he is. He had a negative impact to T'Wolves team last year, and that's not what a stud is supposed to do. Now, will he become one? Remains to be seen.

Wiggins played fairly well as a rookie, but he has failed to live up to expectations. At Kansas he couldn't do much, and then he did ok individually last year, but guys like LeBron and even Melo took bottom of the heap teams to the playoffs as rookies, so Wiggins rep is still based mostly on hype.

[thamadkant]

Wolves are out west though... Wolves also had "injuries" with Rubio, Martin, Pekovic...
They fielded Wiggins, Shabazz, Dieng, LaVine a lot... and thats a good young lineup... no clogs, each one plays a different position.