Page 1 of 3
Fun fact: So far, Suns have 5th best starting lineup in the league
Posted: Sat Nov 14, 2015 4:31 pm
by rsavaj
Re: Fun fact: So far, Suns have 5th best starting lineup in the league
Posted: Sat Nov 14, 2015 5:02 pm
by jcsunsfan
Fascinating article, but the real interesting stuff is about the substitution patterns. It goes against conventional wisdom on the board.
1. Substituting Leuer for Markieff has been a disaster. Leuer plays well, but not with all the starters.
2. Same goes for Warren. Slide Warren into the starting line up and its bad news. Warren is quite effective playing with selective groups of bench players.
It seems this article would encourage some sort of platoon system.
Warren does much better with the subs. The very best non-starting unit has been an all-sub unit of Ronnie Price, Alex Len, Jon Leuer, T.J. Warren and Sonny Weems, with a plus-11 net rating per 100 possessions (on only 14 minutes together). Small sample size alert!
I wonder if this is just because it is early in the season. It is likely that training camp included alot of work with the starters together so that they could build some cohesion. If so, this lineup probably played alot together as well against them.
I wonder why NBA coaches don't platoon more often. Every player on any given roster is talented. It would make that a platoon could give a team a completely different look and frustrate an opponent.
Re: Fun fact: So far, Suns have 5th best starting lineup in the league
Posted: Sat Nov 14, 2015 5:19 pm
by JMac1
rsavaj wrote:http://www.brightsideofthesun.com/2015/11/14/9731602/deep-dive-phoenix-suns-depth-being-challenged-but-starters-absolutely
Problem is our weak as heck bench.
We have the best starting five in the league. Now, only if we had a better bench, then we'd win the championship. I have no idea why old establish vets can't see that and won't come here at a cheap salary to win a title and help us fortify our bench
Stats don't tell the whole story..........case in point.
Re: Fun fact: So far, Suns have 5th best starting lineup in the league
Posted: Sat Nov 14, 2015 7:08 pm
by rsavaj
JMac1 wrote:rsavaj wrote:http://www.brightsideofthesun.com/2015/11/14/9731602/deep-dive-phoenix-suns-depth-being-challenged-but-starters-absolutely
Problem is our weak as heck bench.
We have the best starting five in the league. Now, only if we had a better bench, then we'd win the championship. I have no idea why old establish vets can't see that and won't come here at a cheap salary to win a title and help us fortify our bench
Stats don't tell the whole story..........case in point.
Nobody said we had the best starting five in the league.
In this case, our starting five has the been the 5th best starting 5 in the league so far. You can claim "STATISTICS LIE!" but the statistics you're protesting here are literally points scored vs points allowed
Re: Fun fact: So far, Suns have 5th best starting lineup in the league
Posted: Sat Nov 14, 2015 7:09 pm
by rsavaj
jcsunsfan wrote:Fascinating article, but the real interesting stuff is about the substitution patterns. It goes against conventional wisdom on the board.
1. Substituting Leuer for Markieff has been a disaster. Leuer plays well, but not with all the starters.
2. Same goes for Warren. Slide Warren into the starting line up and its bad news. Warren is quite effective playing with selective groups of bench players.
It seems this article would encourage some sort of platoon system.
Warren does much better with the subs. The very best non-starting unit has been an all-sub unit of Ronnie Price, Alex Len, Jon Leuer, T.J. Warren and Sonny Weems, with a plus-11 net rating per 100 possessions (on only 14 minutes together). Small sample size alert!
I wonder if this is just because it is early in the season. It is likely that training camp included alot of work with the starters together so that they could build some cohesion. If so, this lineup probably played alot together as well against them.
I wonder why NBA coaches don't platoon more often. Every player on any given roster is talented. It would make that a platoon could give a team a completely different look and frustrate an opponent.
Agreed, that's why I posted it. It shattered a lot of my preconceived notions about how the team has played so far.
Re: Fun fact: So far, Suns have 5th best starting lineup in the league
Posted: Sat Nov 14, 2015 7:17 pm
by Djedefre
That's not the end of this season's controversy:
Suns are playing 2nd fastest bball in the league. Such a high pace with so limited shooting potential and shamefully small numbers in Booker's MP box (rookie or not, he is by far our best shooter)?
Chandler's presence inside benefits our outside shooting, but as neither Bledsoe nor Knight can do the real damage with him in p'n'r, Tyson becomes a setback for their slashing and attacking the rim.
Re: Fun fact: So far, Suns have 5th best starting lineup in the league
Posted: Sat Nov 14, 2015 7:25 pm
by JMac1
rsavaj wrote:JMac1 wrote:rsavaj wrote:http://www.brightsideofthesun.com/2015/11/14/9731602/deep-dive-phoenix-suns-depth-being-challenged-but-starters-absolutely
Problem is our weak as heck bench.
We have the best starting five in the league. Now, only if we had a better bench, then we'd win the championship. I have no idea why old establish vets can't see that and won't come here at a cheap salary to win a title and help us fortify our bench
Stats don't tell the whole story..........case in point.
Nobody said we had the best starting five in the league.
In this case, our starting five has the been
the 5th best starting 5 in the league so far. You can claim "STATISTICS LIE!" but the statistics you're protesting here are literally points scored vs points allowed
I claim "RECORD OF THE TEAM." Our starting five is horrible...but the stats say different
Well maybe you can get us the number one seed with this "Statistical truth."
Re: Fun fact: So far, Suns have 5th best starting lineup in the league
Posted: Sat Nov 14, 2015 7:56 pm
by aIvin adams
not too surprising. bledsoe has been soooo good.
we just don't have enough shooting off the bench and Len has struggled and CHandler has been playing at his high level.
kinda wondering when coach will try Booker again. i understand giving some of the seasoned guys minutes over him-- i've never been confident in rookies personally and weems has shown enough to earn more opportunities to show he can be a shooter in our offense. plus if Archie showed some progress he could get value in a trade.
but yah i wish we oculd fast-forward two years and have 21 year old Booker
Re: Fun fact: So far, Suns have 5th best starting lineup in the league
Posted: Sat Nov 14, 2015 8:10 pm
by rsavaj
JMac1 wrote:rsavaj wrote:JMac1 wrote:We have the best starting five in the league. Now, only if we had a better bench, then we'd win the championship. I have no idea why old establish vets can't see that and won't come here at a cheap salary to win a title and help us fortify our bench
Stats don't tell the whole story..........case in point.
Nobody said we had the best starting five in the league.
In this case, our starting five has the been
the 5th best starting 5 in the league so far. You can claim "STATISTICS LIE!" but the statistics you're protesting here are literally points scored vs points allowed
I claim "RECORD OF THE TEAM." Our starting five is horrible...but the stats say different
Well maybe you can get us the number one seed with this "Statistical truth."
You're arguing something as basic as 2+2 = 4.
We play very well when the starting 5 is on the floor. That's actually measurable. It's borne out by the eye test, because you SEE them outscore the other team's starting five.
Unfortunately, they're only together for 1/3 of our minutes.
We play poorly when our bench is in the game. That's actually measurable. It's also borne out by the eye test, because you WATCH them lose ground any time the bench comes in.
I'm really not sure why this is so controversial. Please explain your argument because I really don't understand it.
Re: Fun fact: So far, Suns have 5th best starting lineup in the league
Posted: Sat Nov 14, 2015 8:14 pm
by bwgood77
jcsunsfan wrote:Fascinating article, but the real interesting stuff is about the substitution patterns. It goes against conventional wisdom on the board.
1. Substituting Leuer for Markieff has been a disaster. Leuer plays well, but not with all the starters.
2. Same goes for Warren. Slide Warren into the starting line up and its bad news. Warren is quite effective playing with selective groups of bench players.
It seems this article would encourage some sort of platoon system.
Warren does much better with the subs. The very best non-starting unit has been an all-sub unit of Ronnie Price, Alex Len, Jon Leuer, T.J. Warren and Sonny Weems, with a plus-11 net rating per 100 possessions (on only 14 minutes together). Small sample size alert!
I wonder if this is just because it is early in the season. It is likely that training camp included alot of work with the starters together so that they could build some cohesion. If so, this lineup probably played alot together as well against them.
I wonder why NBA coaches don't platoon more often. Every player on any given roster is talented. It would make that a platoon could give a team a completely different look and frustrate an opponent.
This was interesting too
In fact, the popular opinion that T.J. Warren would slide nicely into the starting lineup has been a disaster so far. With the same supporting cast as P.J. Tucker's +15-projected unit, Warren's substitution plunges the unit to a -28.6 rating.
Platooning does seem it would work well right now, but the idea of always having either Knight or Bledsoe on the court seems well too. I think a few times Bledsoe plays the whole first quarter while Knight rests near the end of it. Then Knight comes in early or starts the second as Bledsoe takes a pretty good rest...this has caused some bad early2nd quarters though.
Re: Fun fact: So far, Suns have 5th best starting lineup in the league
Posted: Sat Nov 14, 2015 8:23 pm
by bwgood77
rsavaj wrote:JMac1 wrote:rsavaj wrote:
Nobody said we had the best starting five in the league.
In this case, our starting five has the been the 5th best starting 5 in the league so far. You can claim "STATISTICS LIE!" but the statistics you're protesting here are literally points scored vs points allowed
I claim "RECORD OF THE TEAM." Our starting five is horrible...but the stats say different
Well maybe you can get us the number one seed with this "Statistical truth."
You're arguing something as basic as 2+2 = 4.
We play very well when the starting 5 is on the floor. That's actually measurable. It's borne out by the eye test, because you SEE them outscore the other team's starting five.
Unfortunately, they're only together for 1/3 of our minutes.
We play poorly when our bench is in the game. That's actually measurable. It's also borne out by the eye test, because you WATCH them lose ground any time the bench comes in.
I'm really not sure why this is so controversial. Please explain your argument because I really don't understand it.
Yeah, it's kind of a head scratcher argument. At times our team hasn't looked pretty on offense, but because we are such a great rebounding team now, we get more second chances.
THAT, and Bledsoe/Knight's two monster games do skew the results dramatically, because while so hot, they leave the starters in, in those two games.
Some of the other games were uglier, so substitutions happen quicker, giving the starters fewer minutes together. For example, Kieff's two quick fouls in our horrible game one meant that starting unit barely played together in that first game, so that game is thrown out of the analysis.
However, at the same time, perhaps THAT is WHY we played so badly in that game, proving the starters are THAT important.
But the simple point is, numbers don't lie.
Also, there have really only been about 4 other teams that have been really impressive this year. GS, SA, OKC, and Cleveland. Most of the rest are hovering around average or terrible.
Re: Fun fact: So far, Suns have 5th best starting lineup in the league
Posted: Sat Nov 14, 2015 8:27 pm
by jcsunsfan
With these numbers, the idea of adding veteran, but productive bench help might be warranted. Either that or shorten the rotations.
Re: Fun fact: So far, Suns have 5th best starting lineup in the league
Posted: Sat Nov 14, 2015 8:34 pm
by bwgood77
jcsunsfan wrote:With these numbers, the idea of adding veteran, but productive bench help might be warranted. Either that or shorten the rotations.
Too bad Metta World Peach joined the Lakers. Kidding, but he did have three good games in a row, before doing poorly last night. He was 6-6 in threes in two of them, scoring some points, rebounds, assists, defense.
Re: Fun fact: So far, Suns have 5th best starting lineup in the league
Posted: Sat Nov 14, 2015 8:45 pm
by RaisingArizona
Once Kieff steps up and we shorten the rotation back to the Pringles man days, we'll be good to go. Only bench guys I'd like to see play substantial minutes are Booker, Len, Leuer, and TJ.
Re: Fun fact: So far, Suns have 5th best starting lineup in the league
Posted: Sat Nov 14, 2015 8:48 pm
by MrMiyagi
ginobiliflops wrote:Once Kieff steps up and we shorten the rotation back to the Pringles man days, we'll be good to go. Only bench guys I'd like to see play substantial minutes are Booker, Len, Leuer, and TJ.
Pringles man played Barbosa and Kurt Thomas as a bench. I don't want to return to the Pringles man days.
Re: Fun fact: So far, Suns have 5th best starting lineup in the league
Posted: Sat Nov 14, 2015 9:13 pm
by RaisingArizona
MrMiyagi wrote:ginobiliflops wrote:Once Kieff steps up and we shorten the rotation back to the Pringles man days, we'll be good to go. Only bench guys I'd like to see play substantial minutes are Booker, Len, Leuer, and TJ.
Pringles man played Barbosa and Kurt Thomas as a bench. I don't want to return to the Pringles man days.
Re: Fun fact: So far, Suns have 5th best starting lineup in the league
Posted: Sat Nov 14, 2015 9:26 pm
by jcsunsfan
ginobiliflops wrote:Once Kieff steps up and we shorten the rotation back to the Pringles man days, we'll be good to go. Only bench guys I'd like to see play substantial minutes are Booker, Len, Leuer, and TJ.
Kieff certainly has a golden opportunity. I wonder if he is too much of a knucklehead to take advantage of it.
Re: Fun fact: So far, Suns have 5th best starting lineup in the league
Posted: Sat Nov 14, 2015 9:58 pm
by JMac1
You know what would really be cool. If the told us how many minutes our starting five played versus other teams starting fives. You know when you are getting blown out by OKC and our starting five are on the floor and OKC only has 1 or 2 starters in there and our starting five picks up the point diff because they are playing against other teams back-ups.
How was our starting five against Dallas' starting five when they were on the floor together? How was our starting five against Det. And our starting five has had the luxury of playing depleted teams starting five as well..........
Such a ridiculous stat. You guys know how bad and horrible our starting five are and because some manipulative stats say our 5 are the 5th best some of you guys believe we just need to fortify the bench
makes me laugh. Suckers!!
Re: Fun fact: So far, Suns have 5th best starting lineup in the league
Posted: Sat Nov 14, 2015 10:04 pm
by JMac1
jcsunsfan wrote:ginobiliflops wrote:Once Kieff steps up and we shorten the rotation back to the Pringles man days, we'll be good to go. Only bench guys I'd like to see play substantial minutes are Booker, Len, Leuer, and TJ.
Kieff certainly has a golden opportunity. I wonder if he is too much of a knucklehead to take advantage of it.
Wow!!! All we need is for Kieff to step up.....smh.
Kieff is a non rebounding, jump shooting (not very well) black hole ball stopper when in the post....he is horrible, but maybe he is good enough to keep us at that 9th seed for 5 more years...
Re: Fun fact: So far, Suns have 5th best starting lineup in the league
Posted: Sat Nov 14, 2015 10:05 pm
by JMac1
jcsunsfan wrote:With these numbers, the idea of adding veteran, but productive bench help might be warranted. Either that or shorten the rotations.
Edit: Lets stay the course and add more vets and continue starting Kieff and PJ.