Knowing what you know now, leaving Hornacek out of it, did we really have the talent to be a playoff team?

[bwgood77]

I am certainly not excusing Hornacek for some terrible rotations and losing the team, but if you had known Kieff wouldn't only not be a positive, but would be THIS detrimental, do you think a guy like Pop or Carlisle, if forced to choose a roster and make the playoffs they would have chosen the Suns roster over:

Sacramento's? It seems like many feel like if we had their roster we would be an instant playoff team and contender...Cousins, Gay, WCS, McLemore, heck, add Rondo...

Utah? (no elaboration needed)

New Orleans? (no elaboration needed)

Minnesota? They have tons of young talent but they also have some vets like Rubio, Kevin Martin, Pekovic, and a bunch of guys with a couple years or experience like Dieng and Muhammad, then Lavine, Towns, Wiggins.

I think Gaspar mentioned early something along the lines of "you don't understand, if this team doesn't have Kieff at PF (after not getting Aldridge) we would be terrible."

During that road trip, we had some brutal losses, against some pretty good teams, and although we blew some games in terrible fashion (blame the coach, Knight, Bledsoe, PJ, whoever), we were fighting, so in my mind we were still playing a bit above our talent, despite the bad mistakes at the end to cost us a few games.

It seems that loss to Milwaukee just killed us and all the confidence. At this point, the confidence in the coach and players is so low, that it's pretty obvious we need to move on from Hornacek and shake up the roster and get the guys on the right path, but I just don't totally agree that "we have the talent to be a playoff team". We have some good young talent, as do a bunch of other teams in the west fighting for the playoffs and based on what people post in the trade thread, it seems most value their talent over ours.

At this point I am hoping more for a high pick than a miraculous run at the 8 seed (amazed we are still only two games back of that, but guessing it changes quickly).

But again, it seems many want half the team traded but that we are also playoff caliber and have the talent to be a playoff team. I just really don't understand this.

[toucansma]

Agree with the above. In the current scenario of the West, sure they have the "talent" to be a playoff team, but being an 8th or 7th seed in this weak West doesn't mean much for our future unfortunately. We have some good players, just not a good team. McD has been awesome in acquiring talent in a vacuum, just not assembling a team so far. Ex: acquiring Thomas, Weems, etc and not getting rid of Kieff soon enough. Sarver is in panic mode, and now the Suns look like even more of a joke firing their two assistants.

[garrick]

If we knew Kieff was going to throw a hissy fit this season I think our expectations would have been a lot lower.

The other teams aside from New Orleans still in the hunt for the number 8 playoff spot surprised me a little but considering they upgraded their roster from the previous season should be no surprise.

[blacksun]

There are people in this board who believe that we simply dont have the talent. I can think of Cutter as an advocate of this thinking, and while i respect their opinions id have to disagree. I think we definitely have the talent. However I dont believe talent is the end-all be-all of winning. To me its 50% talent, 40% coaching and team chemistry, and 10% luck. We dont have the latter two. Its just my opinion.

[RaisingArizona]

If Markieff was a 16/6 guy with good efficiency and hit big shots like last year, I think this book has a different ending.

[saintEscaton]

Hell no

[Cutter]

I really don't see us as having the talent to make the playoffs. Yes, we might sneak into the 8th spot (big maybe), but for us to be a loud-and-proud playoff team that other teams fear to play........not happening with this cast of players.

[In Len We Trust]

Look at the Dallas Mavericks roster and then get back to me.

[bwgood77]

Look at the Dallas Mavericks roster and then get back to me.

They have a hall of fame player and as I've mentioned repeatedly who I think is the best coach out there, and full of vets.

[thamadkant]

Sometimes and I mean a lot of times... the team's SYSTEM and coaching really does impact the win/loss column.

If you have a bunch of stars but no proper system, you defend that team by having each star player play ISOs and take away from the other stars.


However, a team with "good" players but no sure-fire superstar, can become an elite team if they are coached well and disciplined to the team's system. The correct system also allows players to play to their full potential... Look at Nash, Curry, Draymond Green etc.
Look at Spurs.... for close to 20 years, Popovic has implemented a system that caters to Duncan's strength mixed with european principles that allows any fundamentally sound player to be key to the system.

[bwgood77]

Sometimes and I mean a lot of times... the team's SYSTEM and coaching really does impact the win/loss column.

If you have a bunch of stars but no proper system, you defend that team by having each star player play ISOs and take away from the other stars.


However, a team with "good" players but no sure-fire superstar, can become an elite team if they are coached well and disciplined to the team's system. The correct system also allows players to play to their full potential... Look at Nash, Curry, Draymond Green etc.
Look at Spurs.... for close to 20 years, Popovic has implemented a system that caters to Duncan's strength mixed with european principles that allows any fundamentally sound player to be key to the system.

Oh yeah, having Duncan makes things much easier, as with Bird, Magic, Kareem, Wilt, Jordan, etc,

[AtheJ415]

Yes. We have the raw talent to be the 8 seed in the West. It's playing well below potential for many reasons.

[bwgood77]

Yes. We have the raw talent to be the 8 seed in the West. It's playing well below potential for many reasons.

But so do the other teams I mentioned, which means it's a crapshoot for that last seed. They are all playing below potential, mainly because they are all playing young players, except to a lesser extent, Sacramento and New Orleans, who should, based on raw talent + experience, plus each having one premier player, SHOULD be better than us.

[AtheJ415]

Yes. We have the raw talent to be the 8 seed in the West. It's playing well below potential for many reasons.

But so do the other teams I mentioned, which means it's a crapshoot for that last seed. They are all playing below potential, mainly because they are all playing young players, except to a lesser extent, Sacramento and New Orleans, who should, based on raw talent + experience, plus each having one premier player, SHOULD be better than us.

We're better than those other teams. It's not a crapshoot. At least it shouldn't be. Our execution is consistently crap. Our rotations are consistently crap. I can think of 1 player on the entire team who has bought into playing defense despite there being 3 elite defenders on the team, with none of them playing good team defense.

We've played our young players in the past and done better. Our young players are also better than those teams' young players. The only real difference is their top player is better, but the overall young talent isn't close imo. I think Sacramento has way less raw talent than us. Same with NO. I completely disagree there. Both have 1, maybe 2 players each I'd want on this team. And when you look at talent and a season's expectations you have to look at the level of development. Lavine has a ton of talent, but he's not developed or ready to play well. You can say that for all of MN except a couple of guys. That's why they were never a threat and are in reality a worse team than us, even if they have a brighter future 3+ years from now.

[Cutter]

Playing our young players is not going to get us into the playoffs this year. Maybe one of Len, Warren or Booker develop into a star player a few years down the road if they get regular playing time. However this year I don't see us having playoff level talent.


Like I said previously

[rsavaj]

I was thinking the team would win 35-40 wins before the season, which wouldn't be enough to make the playoffs. .500 might get you in this season, but what's the point?

I never bought the idea that this team was stocked full with talent. I was skeptical about the Knight/Bledsoe pairing. I also thought Booker and Leuer would contribute nothing, and I'm happy to say that I'm wrong.

[bwgood77]

Yes. We have the raw talent to be the 8 seed in the West. It's playing well below potential for many reasons.

But so do the other teams I mentioned, which means it's a crapshoot for that last seed. They are all playing below potential, mainly because they are all playing young players, except to a lesser extent, Sacramento and New Orleans, who should, based on raw talent + experience, plus each having one premier player, SHOULD be better than us.

We're better than those other teams. It's not a crapshoot. At least it shouldn't be. Our execution is consistently crap. Our rotations are consistently crap. I can think of 1 player on the entire team who has bought into playing defense despite there being 3 elite defenders on the team, with none of them playing good team defense.

We've played our young players in the past and done better. Our young players are also better than those teams' young players. The only real difference is their top player is better, but the overall young talent isn't close imo. I think Sacramento has way less raw talent than us. Same with NO. I completely disagree there. Both have 1, maybe 2 players each I'd want on this team. And when you look at talent and a season's expectations you have to look at the level of development. Lavine has a ton of talent, but he's not developed or ready to play well. You can say that for all of MN except a couple of guys. That's why they were never a threat and are in reality a worse team than us, even if they have a brighter future 3+ years from now.

New Orleans was better than us last year and has a top 5 player. They were banged up to start the season, but have come on since and beaten us twice. We have only gotten worse since last season, not only losing Markieff, but him being a negative for the team and hanging a big cloud over the organization. Leuer is decent, but he really isn't starting caliber for a good playoff team. As you have mentioned, Tucker sucks, and Warren is a second year player. Bledsoe is better than Leuer, Knight is a tad better than Gordon, Anderson is better than Leuer, and Tyreke is better than anything we have at the 3. But they have a superstar.

Utah was predicted to finish ahead of us and kills us at the SF, PF and C positions. I don't know how you say we are better than those teams.

Sacramento is arguable when it comes to talent. Rondo can be really good, but Bledsoe is better, Cousins is far better than anyone we have and Gay, whether he play the 3 or 4 is better than any of our 3s and 4s.

Minnesota is young, but their C rotation is probably as good, neither of us have great PFs, Towns is better than Booker and Wiggins is better than Warren. Bledsoe edges Rubio. Martin is about as good as Knight. Their talent is superior as well.

Despite all of our problems, and terrible losses with Knight costing us 2 or 3 games with bonehead turnovers, we are still ahead of all but Utah.

With Bledsoe out, we are certainly worse on paper than any of those teams.

[Puff]

In all due respect you cannot leave Hornacek out of the equation.

He is the guy handing out minutes. We all question the rotations and that appears to be a real frustration in the front office. I do not think we really know if we have enough talent due to the poor coaching our players have been receiving.

My question is. What player on the current roster has become a better player because of Jeff's coaching?

I really cannot name one player that has improved their game. Most players have regressed. Bledsoe's numbers have increased due to usage not coaching, IMO. I do not see him as a better player than he was before he got here other than maybe a better 3 point shooter but I think he stats from the 3 was better when he was with the Clippers.

[BobbieL]

If Markieff was a 16/6 guy with good efficiency and hit big shots like last year, I think this book has a different ending.

I am not saying you can blame the last 10 days solely on number 11 - but if he had just kept improving this year like he had his career and just not tanked it (I swear, the first Detroit game in Phoenix, he tanked it, he wanted Detroit to win) - I think this team could be much better,

So the negative energy just got worse and worse - guy is a loser, can't stand him. He is the worst. His teams will never win a championship. -- team killer

[MrMiyagi]

I think we were in for a shot at the 7th or 8th seed if we were healthy and not sabotaged. Would we have gotten it? I don't know, but playoff aspirations were not unfounded for this roster at the beginning of the season.