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Okay, so I turned the engine on the Fire Hornacek bandwagon back in October – I was thinking of ditching him as soon as that ugly preseason loss to Dallas. But I gotta say… Archie looks great. We’ve been mad at how little time he’s gotten, and I’ve gotten mad at how little time Len had gotten, and everyone’s currently pretty upset that TJ isn’t playing more. But Archie has really improved sitting on Hornacek’s bench. He’s played before and performed poorly, missing a lot of shots and blowing a lot of assignments his first two and a half years. But damn. Suddenly, Archie can play. And Len can play. And I bet when TJ breaks out of his shell, he’s going to blow everyone away.

Hornacek has been tough on these guys. And we’ve lost games. But I like this front office, and the front office and the Coach have a good relationship, and Jeff has stuck it out through the firing of his assistants. And now these young guys are coming along. Jeff certainly makes the young guys prove themselves, but now they’re… proving themselves. So I’m starting to think Jeff deserves some credit.

Listen, we’re all sick of the losing (or at least we were until it became clear that we could add a superstar with a high draft pick). But if we’re honest with ourselves, I’d say none of us were really ever in love with these starters. I, for one, have tremendous respect and appreciation for PJ. I’d love to keep him around, but I’d really, really love to have him if I were a contender (because dude can switch between Draymond Green and Steph Curry relatively effectively… how many guys can say that?). But Keef? Never liked his game. Dragic? Frye? I said from the middle of the 2013-14 season that Dragic has peaked, and very few thought we should extend Frye despite his tremendous play that year. Bledsoe? I’ve been impressed by his abilities, but he’s never removed my doubts. Knight? I’m starting to think he’s more in the mold of a super-sixth man rather than a starting one or two. And Chandler… well, let’s just say you can’t help but notice how much more effective Len is playing alongside Chandler than behind or in front of him. It’s taken a long time to get here, but…

Here we are. I have a hard time anymore faulting Hornacek for the losses, and I’m impressed by the development of the now 4 draft picks who have developed on his roster. Development of young players seems to be a strength of Hornacek’s rather than a knock on his resume. And if that’s the case, sign me up. Because I’m more excited about this team today than I was in November, and I would like to stay the course with this Coach as well as this front office.

Extend Jeff Hornacek.

Sincerely,

cosmofizzo

OH man. Here it comes.

You are going to be about as popular as MLK at a KKK rally.

Suns message boards have already decided Horny is the evil spawn of Satan and Rosie ODonnell.

My only comment :

Mods lock this thread please

I agree that I believe Hornacek has developed our players pretty well. Even Kieff improve every year under Horny (besides this year). I'd say Dragic/Green also had career years under Hornacek. Miles Plumlee did also.
Everyone is looking for a scapegoat and given the circumstances I think its fair to criticize Jeff, but I don't think the blame is entirely on him. The team is a mess, but I'm scared if we fired Hornacek someone is gonna replace him and do a terrible job developing our players which I feel Hornacek has done a pretty good job at that.

hahahahahahaha

I'm with you OP.

Hornacek isn't the problem. People laugh because don't know what to say and hope the coach will be fired, because it works in that way, the coach is always first head to fall. Like in Cleveland.
Don't be like the Cavs guys.

The General Manager has more faults than the coach in my opinion. The team is that and Hornacek maybe is not taking out the max from that, but i don't know who can do better with that team.
Don't be mad at the coach if you don't really have a true PG.

PJ for President.

Zappa012 wrote:I'm with you OP.

Hornacek isn't the problem. People laugh because don't know what to say and hope the coach will be fired, because it works in that way, the coach is always first head to fall. Like in Cleveland.
Don't be like the Cavs guys.

The General Manager has more faults than the coach in my opinion. The team is that and Hornacek maybe is not taking out the max from that, but i don't know who can do better with that team.
Don't be mad at the coach if you don't really have a true PG.

PJ for President.

Yes the FO deserves to shoulder the majority of the blame when it comes to the questionable personnel decision and roster construction. But Horny has proven incapable of dealing with the hand that he was dealt and has been excused enough

ginobiliflops wrote:

OP has a well well articulated argument, why the lock? Don't you like different opinions?!
You know contradiction is useful for the conversation.

BTW. I don't think he should be fired. I am not sure if he should be extended. I do not think he is the problem.

If the title was "Jeff Hornacek Should Not Be Fired", keeping the same argument, it would have been better. Unless were planning to tank next year too.

cosmofizzo wrote:Okay, so I turned the engine on the Fire Hornacek bandwagon back in October – I was thinking of ditching him as soon as that ugly preseason loss to Dallas. But I gotta say… Archie looks great. We’ve been mad at how little time he’s gotten, and I’ve gotten mad at how little time Len had gotten, and everyone’s currently pretty upset that TJ isn’t playing more. But Archie has really improved sitting on Hornacek’s bench. He’s played before and performed poorly, missing a lot of shots and blowing a lot of assignments his first two and a half years. But damn. Suddenly, Archie can play. And Len can play. And I bet when TJ breaks out of his shell, he’s going to blow everyone away.

Hornacek has been tough on these guys. And we’ve lost games. But I like this front office, and the front office and the Coach have a good relationship, and Jeff has stuck it out through the firing of his assistants. And now these young guys are coming along. Jeff certainly makes the young guys prove themselves, but now they’re… proving themselves. So I’m starting to think Jeff deserves some credit.

Listen, we’re all sick of the losing (or at least we were until it became clear that we could add a superstar with a high draft pick). But if we’re honest with ourselves, I’d say none of us were really ever in love with these starters. I, for one, have tremendous respect and appreciation for PJ. I’d love to keep him around, but I’d really, really love to have him if I were a contender (because dude can switch between Draymond Green and Steph Curry relatively effectively… how many guys can say that?). But Keef? Never liked his game. Dragic? Frye? I said from the middle of the 2013-14 season that Dragic has peaked, and very few thought we should extend Frye despite his tremendous play that year. Bledsoe? I’ve been impressed by his abilities, but he’s never removed my doubts. Knight? I’m starting to think he’s more in the mold of a super-sixth man rather than a starting one or two. And Chandler… well, let’s just say you can’t help but notice how much more effective Len is playing alongside Chandler than behind or in front of him. It’s taken a long time to get here, but…

Here we are. I have a hard time anymore faulting Hornacek for the losses, and I’m impressed by the development of the now 4 draft picks who have developed on his roster. Development of young players seems to be a strength of Hornacek’s rather than a knock on his resume. And if that’s the case, sign me up. Because I’m more excited about this team today than I was in November, and I would like to stay the course with this Coach as well as this front office.

Extend Jeff Hornacek.

Sincerely,

cosmofizzo

Very good well thought out post, though I know it won't be popular. He was originally perfect for the rebuild because he is a player development coach, so we traded all the vets, and of course Frye had no value. Then of course, he gets SO much out of guys you never expected (Green, Plumlee, Markieff comes along great that first year, and looked good much of last year), but the team surprised and suddenly the sticking to a strict rebuild was kind of off the table, unfortunately. We were never going far with that team, or the start of last year's team, but Hornacek got last year's team off to a pretty good start (28-20) after losing half of the bread and butter tandem of Dragic/Frye, but you could obviously see the FO moves disrupted chemistry, so the panic moves at last deadline.

Then to lose Dragic, Thomas, Plumlee, Ennis, then have Knight get injured immediately, followed by a Len injury, etc, and I can't expect how anyone expected us to win much after the trade deadline last year. Then the trade of Marcus, the Markieff situation, and all of this made this season very uncomfortable to say the least....but we were hanging around good teams early. There were some substitutions you could have problems with at times, but you could say that about just about any coach.

This season took a drastic bad turn at some point, right around the Bledsoe injury (even a couple games before that) so I expected Sarver with his "reshuffle the front office or coach every couple year approach" would fire him. I expected it between about December 27th and most of January.

As you mentioned, it's obvious the young players McD drafted, who Hornacek was brought in to develop, that he's done a good job with that. But with ownership's demand to compete, it almost puts him in an impossible situation if he doesn't think the younger players are quite ready or want to hold them accountable.

The worst part about him being gone, being so good with player development, is that we will probably bring in our best rookie yet this summer, and could hire some guy that is not a good development coach.

If we really go with the young guys I would extend him too, and let the team grow and have continuity, but if we keep Markieff around and try to compete, and continue with all of these same players, he might be better served (for his sake) to be let go and go elsewhere.

But I don't expect him to be extended, though nothing would surprise me with this team. I just hope if we do move on we don't bring in the wrong guy. The right guy might be hard to find.

So many people whined about D'Antoni and no D and we bring in Porter. I've been fans of plenty of teams that bring in bad coach after bad coach after getting rid of someone who did well for a year or two, and then had a bad year due to a multitude of reasons, only to see such teams continue to be bad for years. That's my biggest fear.

Even proven guys in college like Pitino and Calipari came to the NBA to coach young teams and did miserably, and couldn't handle the pressure.

jcsunsfan wrote:OH man. Here it comes.

You are going to be about as popular as MLK at a KKK rally.

Suns message boards have already decided Horny is the evil spawn of Satan and Rosie ODonnell.

It definitely takes some balls here to bring that up if that's the way you feel. I know there are quite a few who could go either way on him being extended, but they don't speak up much.

What a great thread.

I started one last season "Should Hornacek get an extension"?

Tonight was a great example of what kind of coach he really is. We came out playing very good basketball in the first half and kept a loaded Cavs team to just a 5 point lead at halftime. Horny's HOF fame coaching skills just were not enough to hold down a well coached Lebron James coached Cavaliers team.

It is obvious that Horny created a positive attitude at halftime and made all the necessary adjustments so the we could keep the final margin under 30 points, mission accomplished. It was just genius how he utilized a thin roster to perform far above expectations.

After tonight, I am convinced

Hornacek deserves a lifetime contract. There just is not one coach on this planet that accomplish so much with so little. I definitely want him developing the high draft picks we will certainly earn during his lifetime watch. We have never had the number one pick in the draft. I am certain that Horny will be able to earn our franchise numerous number 1 picks. I hope he signs that contract, soon.

Archie is only playing now because of our horrible injury problems; who knows whether we would ever have seen him play for us otherwise? Don't pretend like hornacek was waiting for this, this is simply a matter of (fortunate for us) circumstance. Len gets his minutes jerked around on a regular basis for half the season and becomes super inconsistent, regressing from what he had become last year. Now, with full minutes (again due to injury) he is showing what he can do. Warren is currently still being jerked around; who knows how good he could be if he got minutes consistently? If Tucker gets injured tomorrow will you give hornacek credit for Warren's breakout game the next day? When it is just as likely that he plays 15 mpg the rest of the season if no one gets hurt and players start coming back? These players may be developing under Hornacek but he has shown no awareness of that. People have been ranting on here for ages about how the kids need minutes, and now that they get them and are doing well, it is somehow a boost to hornacek's credibility? Maybe they have been this good for a while now! How would we know? We never get to see them consistently.

Regardless, hornacek has to go for engineering what has to be one of the worst defenses I've seen in a while, even as a Suns fan. He couldn't get any defensive effort from his veterans and the scheme was broken. I'm worried the young guys will pick up crappy defensive fundamentals as well. Booker and Warren especially need work on that end; they need someone competent to teach them.

Puff wrote:What a great thread.

I started one last season "Should Hornacek get an extension"?

Tonight was a great example of what kind of coach he really is. We came out playing very good basketball in the first half and kept a loaded Cavs team to just a 5 point lead at halftime. Horny's HOF fame coaching skills just were not enough to hold down a well coached Lebron James coached Cavaliers team.

I think that one was earlier this season (or perhaps the offseason) when Budenholzer got his. Last season's I believe was "Is Hornacek the problem?"

If you want to say you want to keep Jeff it's fine. I can get that somebody may think he's a better coach than he's shown this year. That said, I am not sure it's possible to get an egoless, veteran team that has so few off the court issues and so much talent that Jeff's leadership and management weaknesses would allow him to coach any team to the title. I see him as a developmental coach if anything. He's the guy you hire to get you to a certain point, but then you fire him and bring in somebody else to get you further. He could improve, but right now that's where he is imo.

Also, thinking Jeff should stay is a different conversation from whether he deserves to be fired. He most definitely has earned a firing should it come to that. This year, he's been dreadful, and I see no real basketball reason to think otherwise.

bwgood77 wrote:

Puff wrote:What a great thread.

I started one last season "Should Hornacek get an extension"?

Tonight was a great example of what kind of coach he really is. We came out playing very good basketball in the first half and kept a loaded Cavs team to just a 5 point lead at halftime. Horny's HOF fame coaching skills just were not enough to hold down a well coached Lebron James coached Cavaliers team.

I think that one was earlier this season (or perhaps the offseason) when Budenholzer got his. Last season's I believe was "Is Hornacek the problem?"

I started the following two threads not the one that I stated, my error.

On - 12/1/2014 - "Is Hornacek the Problem"

IMO that was the start of him losing the locker room. McDonough made some changes to the roster in the off season and Hornacek did a poor job of managing playing time and the locker room. Remember that was in 2014 after myself and about everyone else on the planet gave him kudos for the job he did the previous year while winning 48 games. While the 48 win team exceeded expectations it failed to win several winnable games and lost many close games down the stretch which prevented us from going to the playoffs.

On 11/26/2015 - "When Does Hornacek Get His Contract Extended"

That thread was a sarcastic approach to his many supporters on this board. I had been and still am extremely skeptical about his ability to be an NBA head coach. He certainly appears to be a great human being but managing an NBA locker room appears to be an extremely difficult job at best. I just do not think he is the man for the job and have felt that way for well over a year.

My problem is I really have no idea who would make a good replacement for him with this group of players but I think we need to replace him prior to dumping everyone again. We have tried dumping underperforming players since last year's trade deadline and we are now the worst team in the NBA.

I say it is time to try a new coach.

PS: On Gambo today, I think Burns is his partner, he said that after the Philadelphia loss Hornacek was extremely frustrated and concerned about the team not following the coaches instructions. Burns suggested that he sounded like a coach who had lost the locker room and sounded like a coach ready to quit. Both Gambo & Burns doubted that he would because he is not a quitter. I have had the same thoughts and have expected a resignation from him for weeks.

Puff wrote: Both Gambo & Burns doubted that he would because he is not a quitter. I have had the same thoughts and have expected a resignation from him for weeks.

I've thought he might feel like he just didn't want to deal with this mess any more and could resign as well, and wouldn't be surprised if he has told them something like (for a mutual respect thing), "I will coach out my contract, and play who you want me to play for trade purposes and we can mutually agree to part ways this summer."