Dr Manute wrote: RunDogGun wrote: Dr Manute wrote:
I was going to respond to some more of the posts above, but I think you are right we are all too stuck in our beliefs - it would be a waste of time to argue. I heard from someone once that it is easier to persuade someone to change their religion then it is to change their political ideology.
We will see what happens during the impeachment trial. If Trump is found guilty of any high crimes and misdemeanors then I would want him to be removed. Know that I care about this country and I only want the best for our future. Peace be to you all.
Oddly, this doesn't have to do with beliefs really. This comes down to facts. trump has committed crimes, this is according to his own mouth, sworn testimony from his own people, and court documents. He literally just admitted to obstruction of justice yesterday. The problem is many Americans either don't care, or are just uniformed of the known facts.
He won't be found guilty, because the republicans in the senate are in lock step with the president. They don't seem to care that trump has blocked all evidence and witnesses from telling the American public the truth. One's political party shouldn't matter when it comes to the truth.
You either see it, refuse to see it, or just completely blind to it. The good news is that these are all things you can look up for yourself. Start with reading the Mueller report. Right there will give you at least 10 counts of obstruction of justice.
Didn't Democrat Congress say they have “Overwhelming And Uncontested” evidence for impeachment? - why do they even need more witnesses?
Were Republicans, the President allowed to call ANY
witnesses in his defense in the House? Why didn't the Democrats call all the witnesses they wanted (not really witnesses - No Evidence Against Trump, Just Opinions) in the Congress - then bring all evidence to Senate (acting as Jury) for a verdict.
Was the procedure in the House unprecedented? No due process for accused, witness originally interviewed behind closed doors and not all transcripts released - only some witnesses allowed to be publicly interviewed, trying to hide/protect - Eric Charamela and the real Quid Pro Quo Joe, starting impeachment without full house vote.
What about how the Senate is conducting things - Is the process the same as the Clinton Impeachment?
RunDogGun wrote:One's political party shouldn't matter when it comes to the truth. You either see it, refuse to see it, or just completely blind to it.
"impeachment is so divisive to the country that unless there’s something so compelling and overwhelming and bipartisan, I don’t think we should go down that path because it divides the country. And he’s just not worth it.” - Pelosi
Impeachment Vote = 0 Republicans
Actual bipartisan support was against impeachment
This is all a show - A Political partisan attempt to alter the 2020 election with the help of their biased media assets to sway the sheep and hide the true crimes that they are guilty of.
An outsider got in - The establishment politicians will do whatever they can to hide what is going to be exposed. Let's watch and see - should be more exciting than the way the Suns are playing.
The House had overwhelming evidence to charge the president, which they do. You do understand that an impeachment merely means a charge. The senate then has a trial. The trial in any court in the US and in many other places is when witnesses and evidence is shown so both sides can argue their case for or against. Every impeachment trial in the US have had witnesses and documents. What is new, is a complete blockade of witnesses and documents by the person who is on trial.
The due process comes in the trial portion, and has been there throughout the impeachment hearings. I don't know where you are getting your information from, but it is lacking greatly. The House did call witnesses, even subpoenas sent out. The president said publicly that they were not going to honor any subpoenas and refused to turn over any documents. That is obstruction of Congress. The information we have received has been through other court cases, trump's mouth, the brave civil servants who came forward, and many of trump's people on tv. We know what happened. The president just bragged about withholding evidence, by saying, "we have all the material".
Here is why it matters to every American: the president works for We The People, as well as our representatives in Congress. From the known evidence and sworn testimony, we know the president extorted UKraine to get announced investigations into his political rivals. The GAO has said that withholding the congressionally approved aid was illegal. So besides the massive amount of obstruction of both Congress and justice, this act was against the law. Withholding the truth from Americans is unacceptable. We shouldn't have to sue the president to get him to release public information. Congress should not be in league with the president to cover up crimes, and aid him in withholding the truth. Congress is supposed to be a check on the executive branch. By denying the Congress all these witnesses and documents, the president has effectively taken that check away. Without these checks, we lose the main cog our founders created to have a strong working government, where one branch doesn't have ultimate power.
As for quoting Pelosi, she had been against impeachment until she was forced to do it. Honestly, the House had enough evidence to charge the president with a crime from the Mueller report. But since the AG refused to indict a sitting president, and misrepresented the findings from that report, public awareness of the crimes committed wasn't as high as the concern for the country as a whole. But with this current crime (according to the law cited in the GAO report), the president was attempting to influence the upcoming election. This goes completely against our Constitution and what the founders wanted. They were against foreign influence in our elections, and never wanted a president beholden to foreign powers. It was bad enough there was such an attack on our election by the Russians in 2016, there is no way We The People should accept another meddling.
Do you think any of the evidence we know now would be public knowledge if the House was still under republican leadership? Clinton was rightfully impeached for lying under oath. Granted it was over a personal affair with a women, not a crime which was designed to affect his reelection. But witnesses were deposed, testimony was taken, even the president testified, there was a full investigation, where documents were provided. We The People are being denied that testimony, the president has refused to testify in person, documents have been hidden from us, and there has been no attempt to keep Russia from doing what they did in 2016.
So here are a few questions I have for you:
Why did the trump campaign lie about all their meetings and dealings with Russia? We know now that trump was aware of the Russian campaign and effort to help be elected. trump continued to lie to us about it while campaigning and while president, despite being shown all the intel. His ask to Russia to help, and the same day they followed through, seems like there was a clear understanding, just because it was done in plain sight doesn't make it less obvious.
Why did trump use Guiliani to carry out this plan? he holds no state position.
Why hide the call on a top secret server if it was a perfect call?
if trump did nothing wrong, all of the witnesses would easily testify this? All the documents would show this.
Why was trump pushing this "Crowdstrike" conspiracy theory, when only people like Putin was pushing it? There is no evidence supporting it. His own appointed people told him there is no merit to the theory.
Is it ok to ask a foreign power to meddle in our elections?
I think a healthy debate over this is good. Lets try not to bring political talking points into this if we can. Sticking to the known facts and arguing their merits is the best route.