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Suns History - Best and Worst Game or Series Memories, Favorite and Worst Draft or FA Memories,Favorite All Time Player

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Re: Suns History 

Post#61 » by DirtyDez » Wed Jun 20, 2018 3:04 am

bwgood77 wrote:
flintsky21 wrote:Question for Suns fans (hopefully I'm in the right thread): I was running through past drafts out of boredom and found something particularly interesting in the 2004 draft: The Phoenix Suns selecting Luol Deng with the 7th pick and then trading him to the Bulls for a future 1st round pick and Jackson Vroman. Why did the Suns do the trade? To save some money? They weren't in love with any of the rookies? How did the fans react at that time?

Thanks and hoping the best for you guys in the upcoming draft (and by best I mean picking Doncic but I digress). :lol:


We agreed to a trade prior to the pick being made. It seemed stupid. There were several bad mistakes that off season that largely were forgotten because the Suns ended up winning 62 games. Their plan was to go with wings and go small so they went out and signed Quentin Richardson and then signed Steve Nash. Joe Johnson was eligible for extension and wanted 6/50 but Sarver only wanted to offer him 6/45. It was chump change and had he agreed he would have been locked up....Sarver didn't want to after forking out the money for Q and Nash. Same reason they traded the pick...didn't want to pay for a rookie.

I was hoping they took Iguodala who would have been available as well. I don't know how much influence D'Antoni had on the deals or if it was all Colangelo but I always thought it would have been smart to just extend JJ, pick Iguodala and not sign Q. They took on too much money that would cost them.

They ended up trading Q for Kurt Thomas anyway, but later had to dump his contract by giving up two first rounders to get rid of it, one of those becoming Ibaka....OKC traded Kurt Thomas to San Antonio and he helped beat us in the playoffs later.


The summer of 04’ is looked at as a remarkable success in Suns history because of the Nash signing but they really cost themselves titles as well. JJ put up 19/5/5 after the Steph/Penny trade at 22 years old and we wouldn’t max him out which back then was 8-9 mil a year. We would’ve had the best backcourt in the league for 6 years. Then they turn around and basically ddump a top-10 pick (that would’ve costed less than 3 mil a year) and give the exact same contract to Q they wouldn’t give to JJ. No wonder he wanted out.

Iggy wouldn’t have contributed much that first year but think of Joe/Iggy on the wing together thru their athletic primes. Both capable of playing PG and defending multiple positions. Iggy was dynamite in the open floor while Joe could score in the half court. Both perfect compliments to Nash/Marion/Amare. We wouldn’t have had Diaw or Kurt but could’ve signed better depth bigs than Burke/Grant. You can’t really blame BC for leaving mid-season with the way he was hamstrung by ownership.

Nash
Joe
Iguodala
Marion
Amare

Probably the most athletic lineup in history...
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Re: Suns History 

Post#62 » by bwgood77 » Wed Jun 20, 2018 3:21 am

DirtyDez wrote:
bwgood77 wrote:
flintsky21 wrote:Question for Suns fans (hopefully I'm in the right thread): I was running through past drafts out of boredom and found something particularly interesting in the 2004 draft: The Phoenix Suns selecting Luol Deng with the 7th pick and then trading him to the Bulls for a future 1st round pick and Jackson Vroman. Why did the Suns do the trade? To save some money? They weren't in love with any of the rookies? How did the fans react at that time?

Thanks and hoping the best for you guys in the upcoming draft (and by best I mean picking Doncic but I digress). :lol:


We agreed to a trade prior to the pick being made. It seemed stupid. There were several bad mistakes that off season that largely were forgotten because the Suns ended up winning 62 games. Their plan was to go with wings and go small so they went out and signed Quentin Richardson and then signed Steve Nash. Joe Johnson was eligible for extension and wanted 6/50 but Sarver only wanted to offer him 6/45. It was chump change and had he agreed he would have been locked up....Sarver didn't want to after forking out the money for Q and Nash. Same reason they traded the pick...didn't want to pay for a rookie.

I was hoping they took Iguodala who would have been available as well. I don't know how much influence D'Antoni had on the deals or if it was all Colangelo but I always thought it would have been smart to just extend JJ, pick Iguodala and not sign Q. They took on too much money that would cost them.

They ended up trading Q for Kurt Thomas anyway, but later had to dump his contract by giving up two first rounders to get rid of it, one of those becoming Ibaka....OKC traded Kurt Thomas to San Antonio and he helped beat us in the playoffs later.


The summer of 04’ is looked at as a remarkable success in Suns history because of the Nash signing but they really cost themselves titles as well. JJ put up 19/5/5 after the Steph/Penny trade at 22 years old and we wouldn’t max him out which back then was 8-9 mil a year. We would’ve had the best backcourt in the league for 6 years. Then they turn around and basically ddump a top-10 pick (that would’ve costed less than 3 mil a year) and give the exact same contract to Q they wouldn’t give to JJ. No wonder he wanted out.

Iggy wouldn’t have contributed much that first year but think of Joe/Iggy on the wing together thru their athletic primes. Both capable of playing PG and defending multiple positions. Iggy was dynamite in the open floor while Joe could score in the half court. Both perfect compliments to Nash/Marion/Amare. We wouldn’t have had Diaw or Kurt but could’ve signed better depth bigs than Burke/Grant. You can’t really blame BC for leaving mid-season with the way he was hamstrung by ownership.

Nash
Joe
Iguodala
Marion
Amare

Probably the most athletic lineup in history...


Yeah, that lineup would maybe not have been quite as good the first year, but would have sustained with better D, and they had said after the next offseason they would have signed Raja regardless of if Joe left. If that was the case, they would have been stacked.

That was the biggest problem with the Colangelos...if they had cap space, they had to spend it...whether it be replacing McDyess with bad contracts or spending a bunch of money on Q. They also could have signed McDyess that summer instead of Q for cheap...and could have signed Vlade instead of Longley post McDyess for a lot cheaper...much cheaper in both cases...I remember one of them signed for like 3/10 and we gave much bigger contracts, to the other guys.
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Re: Suns History 

Post#63 » by flintsky21 » Wed Jun 20, 2018 5:22 am

Thanks for the insights. Now that I think about it, maybe the Suns wanted more "ready" pieces at that time to support Steve Nash's signing (who was 31). But this would be assuming the Suns were already in talk with Nash joining them around the time of the draft. So saving some money from a guaranteed 1st rounder and going for Q instead (who was coming of a career year averaging 17 ppg) would've made more sense. Plus D'Antoni was never really fond of rookies if I'm not mistaken (the Suns trading their 1st round pick again next season would support this).

In hindsight, a super-athletic trio of Amare, Marion and Iggy with Nash running the show would've been so much fun. Also interesting to think what if the Suns kept Deng instead (who was a 17 ppg scorer for most of his career and one of the better two-way players in the league at the time).
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Re: Suns History 

Post#64 » by GMATCallahan » Wed Jun 20, 2018 12:37 pm

bwgood77 wrote:
flintsky21 wrote:Question for Suns fans (hopefully I'm in the right thread): I was running through past drafts out of boredom and found something particularly interesting in the 2004 draft: The Phoenix Suns selecting Luol Deng with the 7th pick and then trading him to the Bulls for a future 1st round pick and Jackson Vroman. Why did the Suns do the trade? To save some money? They weren't in love with any of the rookies? How did the fans react at that time?

Thanks and hoping the best for you guys in the upcoming draft (and by best I mean picking Doncic but I digress). :lol:


We agreed to a trade prior to the pick being made. It seemed stupid. There were several bad mistakes that off season that largely were forgotten because the Suns ended up winning 62 games. Their plan was to go with wings and go small so they went out and signed Quentin Richardson and then signed Steve Nash. Joe Johnson was eligible for extension and wanted 6/50 but Sarver only wanted to offer him 6/45. It was chump change and had he agreed he would have been locked up....Sarver didn't want to after forking out the money for Q and Nash. Same reason they traded the pick...didn't want to pay for a rookie.

I was hoping they took Iguodala who would have been available as well. I don't know how much influence D'Antoni had on the deals or if it was all Colangelo but I always thought it would have been smart to just extend JJ, pick Iguodala and not sign Q. They took on too much money that would cost them.

They ended up trading Q for Kurt Thomas anyway, but later had to dump his contract by giving up two first rounders to get rid of it, one of those becoming Ibaka....OKC traded Kurt Thomas to San Antonio and he helped beat us in the playoffs later.


Inking Richardson would not have prevented the Suns from giving Johnson $5M more over a total of six years—an average of merely $833,333 extra per season to keep him away from restricted free agency. Sarver, being a banker rather than a basketball man, probably possessed no appreciation for Johnson's ability and thought that he could conduct a basketball negotiation like a banking transaction. Johnson, at twenty-two, had averaged 19.6 points, 5.2 assists, and 5.1 rebounds over the final 48 games of the '03-'04 regular season (following the Suns' trade of Stephon Marbury and Anfernee Hardaway to New York).

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/johnsjo02/gamelog/2004/#194-241-sum:pgl_basic

He was not efficient (.513 True Shooting Percentage during that span), and Phoenix constituted a bad team, but Johnson's combination of size, smoothness of actions, quickness with the basketball, ability to create his own shot, and soft touch stood out. He amounted to a definite building block alongside Shawn Marion and Amare Stoudemire, and Sarver should have retained him for the long haul before the market could inflate his value. Although Phoenix probably proved better off in '05-'06 with Boris Diaw, Johnson would have proved more valuable in seasons to come.
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Re: Suns History 

Post#65 » by GMATCallahan » Wed Jun 20, 2018 11:43 pm

Twenty-five years ago this evening, on June 20, 1993, the Suns hosted the Bulls in Game Six of the 1993 NBA Finals. Here is the NBC introduction to the game:



Five years ago, Sports Illustrated labeled the series "The Best Finals Ever." If ever an NBA Finals should have gone to a Game Seven, it was that year. Phoenix led by four points, in possession of the basketball, with under a minute to play—and then it was gone.





Here are NBC's closing credits:

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Re: Suns History 

Post#66 » by Frank Lee » Thu Jun 21, 2018 4:33 pm

The irony of ‘04 is BColonjello got Exec of the year.

Sometimes both he and his pop out-thought themselves.
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Re: Suns History 

Post#67 » by bwgood77 » Thu Jun 21, 2018 8:10 pm

Frank Lee wrote:The irony of ‘04 is BColonjello got Exec of the year.

Sometimes both he and his pop out-thought themselves.


I think McD studied him well. Some similarities there.

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Re: Suns History 

Post#68 » by GMATCallahan » Sun Jun 24, 2018 1:37 am

Frank Lee wrote:The irony of ‘04 is BColonjello got Exec of the year.

Sometimes both he and his pop out-thought themselves.


... 2005, but that is what you meant ('04-'05). Colangelo then received the award two years later in Toronto, which impressively meant that he garnered the honor twice in a three-year span with two different organizations.

Trading Stephon Marbury may seem like a no-brainer now, but as you may recall, that decision in early January 2004 proved pretty shocking. It allowed the Suns to dump the remainder of Anfernee Hardaway's burdensome contract, but Marbury was just twenty-six and had led Phoenix to a surprising playoff berth in 2003, causing the Suns to ink him to a massive new extension prior to the '03-'04 campaign. To seemingly start all over required some guts and gumption, and although Phoenix was surely targeting Steve Nash for the summer of 2004, no one knew that he would end up leaving Dallas—and he was three years older than Marbury, anyway. But the Suns took a calculated risk and ended up enjoying a seismic reward.

Curiously, Phoenix tried to trade Wesley Person and Wayman Tisdale to the Vancouver Grizzlies in June 1996 in exchange for the third overall pick in the draft, which Phoenix apparently would have used to select Marbury. When the second-year expansion Grizzlies rejected the offer (a proposal which made little sense given that Tisdale had just turned thirty-two and was entering the final year of his contract), the Suns drafted Nash with the fifteenth selection. Then, six months later, Phoenix traded for Jason Kidd. Then, four and a half years later, the Suns swapped Kidd for Marbury. Two and a half years after that, the franchise traded Marbury, and following another six months, the club inked Nash as a free agent—six years after trading Nash at the point guard's request. The Suns' decision to deal Nash in late June 1998 came nine months after Phoenix had refused to trade him in the three-way Antonio McDyess deal, jettisoning Person instead. By January 1999, however, Phoenix featured neither Person nor Nash nor McDyess, yet the Suns reacquired McDyess in the Marbury deal five years later—before letting him leave as a free agent six months after that.
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Re: Suns History 

Post#69 » by bwgood77 » Sun Jun 24, 2018 1:59 am

GMATCallahan wrote:
Frank Lee wrote:The irony of ‘04 is BColonjello got Exec of the year.

Sometimes both he and his pop out-thought themselves.


... 2005, but that is what you meant ('04-'05). Colangelo then received the award two years later in Toronto, which impressively meant that he garnered the honor twice in a three-year span with two different organizations.

Trading Stephon Marbury may seem like a no-brainer now, but as you may recall, that decision in early January 2004 proved pretty shocking. It allowed the Suns to dump the remainder of Anfernee Hardaway's burdensome contract, but Marbury was just twenty-six and had led Phoenix to a surprising playoff berth in 2003, causing the Suns to ink him to a massive new extension prior to the '03-'04 campaign. To seemingly start all over required some guts and gumption, and although Phoenix was surely targeting Steve Nash for the summer of 2004, no one knew that he would end up leaving Dallas—and he was three years older than Marbury, anyway. But the Suns took a calculated risk and ended up enjoying a seismic reward.

Curiously, Phoenix tried to trade Wesley Person and Wayman Tisdale to the Vancouver Grizzlies in June 1996 in exchange for the third overall pick in the draft, which Phoenix apparently would have used to select Marbury. When the second-year expansion Grizzlies rejected the offer (a proposal which made little sense given that Tisdale had just turned thirty-two and was entering the final year of his contract), the Suns drafted Nash with the fifteenth selection. Then, six months later, Phoenix traded for Jason Kidd. Then, four and a half years later, the Suns swapped Kidd for Marbury. Two and a half years after that, the franchise traded Marbury, and following another six months, the club inked Nash as a free agent—six years after trading Nash at the point guard's request. The Suns' decision to deal Nash in late June 1998 came nine months after Phoenix had refused to trade him in the three-way Antonio McDyess deal, jettisoning Person instead. By January 1999, however, Phoenix featured neither Person nor Nash nor McDyess, yet the Suns reacquired McDyess in the Marbury deal five years later—before letting him leave as a free agent six months after that.


I remember seeing fan reactions...fans being interviewed on tv after the Marbury to Knicks trade and everyone was just incredulous..."they don't know what they are doing", etc...

And then getting McDyess back. I remember wanting to keep him...I think he ended up signing a very reasonable deal in Detroit...I thought he would be a good backup big to have behind Marion/Stoudemire...and would have been much cheaper than Q, allowing, and we likely would have been ok with the JJ extension and using our draft pick on Iguodala that year.

As I recall, we had agreed to trade that pick early and later said we didn't think Iguodala or Deng would be available. Interesting that it would have given Sarver the opportunity to draft a University of Arizona player in his first draft near the top of the draft. 14 years later, finally, he was able to.
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Re: Suns History 

Post#70 » by DirtyDez » Sun Jun 24, 2018 2:23 am

bwgood77 wrote:
GMATCallahan wrote:
Frank Lee wrote:The irony of ‘04 is BColonjello got Exec of the year.

Sometimes both he and his pop out-thought themselves.


... 2005, but that is what you meant ('04-'05). Colangelo then received the award two years later in Toronto, which impressively meant that he garnered the honor twice in a three-year span with two different organizations.

Trading Stephon Marbury may seem like a no-brainer now, but as you may recall, that decision in early January 2004 proved pretty shocking. It allowed the Suns to dump the remainder of Anfernee Hardaway's burdensome contract, but Marbury was just twenty-six and had led Phoenix to a surprising playoff berth in 2003, causing the Suns to ink him to a massive new extension prior to the '03-'04 campaign. To seemingly start all over required some guts and gumption, and although Phoenix was surely targeting Steve Nash for the summer of 2004, no one knew that he would end up leaving Dallas—and he was three years older than Marbury, anyway. But the Suns took a calculated risk and ended up enjoying a seismic reward.

Curiously, Phoenix tried to trade Wesley Person and Wayman Tisdale to the Vancouver Grizzlies in June 1996 in exchange for the third overall pick in the draft, which Phoenix apparently would have used to select Marbury. When the second-year expansion Grizzlies rejected the offer (a proposal which made little sense given that Tisdale had just turned thirty-two and was entering the final year of his contract), the Suns drafted Nash with the fifteenth selection. Then, six months later, Phoenix traded for Jason Kidd. Then, four and a half years later, the Suns swapped Kidd for Marbury. Two and a half years after that, the franchise traded Marbury, and following another six months, the club inked Nash as a free agent—six years after trading Nash at the point guard's request. The Suns' decision to deal Nash in late June 1998 came nine months after Phoenix had refused to trade him in the three-way Antonio McDyess deal, jettisoning Person instead. By January 1999, however, Phoenix featured neither Person nor Nash nor McDyess, yet the Suns reacquired McDyess in the Marbury deal five years later—before letting him leave as a free agent six months after that.


I remember seeing fan reactions...fans being interviewed on tv after the Marbury to Knicks trade and everyone was just incredulous..."they don't know what they are doing", etc...

And then getting McDyess back. I remember wanting to keep him...I think he ended up signing a very reasonable deal in Detroit...I thought he would be a good backup big to have behind Marion/Stoudemire...and would have been much cheaper than Q, allowing, and we likely would have been ok with the JJ extension and using our draft pick on Iguodala that year.

As I recall, we had agreed to trade that pick early and later said we didn't think Iguodala or Deng would be available. Interesting that it would have given Sarver the opportunity to draft a University of Arizona player in his first draft near the top of the draft. 14 years later, finally, he was able to.


There was still the thought at that time the Suns could trade for a superstar like Kobe or T-Mac so the Suns weren’t going to spend on role players but McDyess would’ve been a great backup on those teams. Ultimately the Lakers decided to keep Kobe over Shaq and Houston traded their starting backcourt for McGrady before the start of FA. Nash was a pretty good backup plan looking back.
fromthetop321 wrote:I got Lebron number 1, he is also leading defensive player of the year. Curry's game still reminds me of Jeremy Lin to much.
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Re: Suns History 

Post#71 » by GMATCallahan » Sun Jun 24, 2018 5:04 am

bwgood77 wrote:I remember seeing fan reactions...fans being interviewed on tv after the Marbury to Knicks trade and everyone was just incredulous..."they don't know what they are doing", etc...

And then getting McDyess back. I remember wanting to keep him...I think he ended up signing a very reasonable deal in Detroit...I thought he would be a good backup big to have behind Marion/Stoudemire...and would have been much cheaper than Q, allowing, and we likely would have been ok with the JJ extension and using our draft pick on Iguodala that year.

As I recall, we had agreed to trade that pick early and later said we didn't think Iguodala or Deng would be available. Interesting that it would have given Sarver the opportunity to draft a University of Arizona player in his first draft near the top of the draft. 14 years later, finally, he was able to.


Yeah, you have mentioned the McDyess idea before, and in retrospect, the Suns probably would have been better off by following your idea. Consider at the time, though, that McDyess had played in a grand total of 52 games over the previous three seasons. Although the contract that he signed with Detroit (four years, $23M) proved modest, it still might have seemed like a significant risk.

Ultimately, as I wrote earlier, the Richardson contract did not constitute a reasonable impediment to inking Johnson to that extension. I sense that Sarver, as a rookie owner, did not understand the nature of NBA market economics and instead brought his banking mentality to basketball.

By the way, referring to a point of yours a few posts ago, I am sure that D'Antoni's natural instincts were to play small, but based on what he has said in the past, the actual decision to discard a true center from the starting lineup and go small only emerged after the Suns started practicing and playing together that fall. That element, though, is what really maximized the Suns' floor spacing to optimize Phoenix's fast break and pick-and-roll—and thus Nash's performance—and it probably would not have been the same in the short term with Iguodala or Deng.

Do you remember your reaction to the Marbury trade? And what were your thoughts of him as a player with Phoenix?
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Re: Suns History 

Post#72 » by GMATCallahan » Sun Jun 24, 2018 5:43 am

DirtyDez wrote:There was still the thought at that time the Suns could trade for a superstar like Kobe or T-Mac so the Suns weren’t going to spend on role players but McDyess would’ve been a great backup on those teams. Ultimately the Lakers decided to keep Kobe over Shaq and Houston traded their starting backcourt for McGrady before the start of FA. Nash was a pretty good backup plan looking back.


Bryant was a free agent, but, yeah, the Suns were definitely interested. I always thought that the idea of signing him seemed far-fetched, though, and Phoenix seemed to have hedged its bets when Nash agreed to the Suns' offer.

http://articles.latimes.com/2004/jul/02/sports/sp-lakerep2

And that decision by Phoenix probably proved wise, because based on Bryant's own comments to Shaquille O'Neal in their recent mutual interview on NBA TV, he was going to join the Chicago Bulls until the Lakers decided to trade O'Neal.

Trading for McGrady allegedly would have cost both Shawn Marion and Joe Johnson, a notion that never made sense to me. By 2004, I was not high on McGrady, and despite some special abilities on his part, I frankly do not consider him a "great" player. He created, or settled for, a ton of bad shots, hence his career .519 True Shooting Percentage with only one season above .532 and only two higher than .526. Whatever the Basketball Hall of Fame may value, it is not offensive efficiency or wise, disciplined offense.

Of course, if the Grizzlies had not foolishly turned down the Suns' offer of Steve Nash for the fourth overall pick in the 1997 draft (which Vancouver used on Antonio Daniels), I would have loved to have seen Phoenix select McGrady in retrospect. Can you imagine a lineup, circa 2000 or 2001, with Jason Kidd, Tracy McGrady, Clifford Robinson, and Antonio McDyess? I am not sure if it would have produced a championship, but it would have been really fun to watch, and the defensive potential—with all that size, length, and quickness—would have almost matched the offensive potential. Even a lineup with Kidd, Wesley Person, McGrady, and Robinson at point guard, shooting guard, small forward, and power forward, respectively, would have given Phoenix a fine foundation for championship contention.

Bryant suffered from that same basic flaw as McGrady (as did the latter's cousin, Vince Carter), but he was tougher and more tenacious and a much better free throw shooter. Still, I am not sure if he would have ever won a championship without Phil Jackson and the triangle offense (and, of course, an elite big man within the triangle). Although he often struggled to play within the triangle, I sense that it provided just enough balance and structure to allow a club to win championships (ultimately five of them) with Kobe Bryant. But without Jackson, there seems little chance that O'Neal and Bryant would have ever won a title together, which is a remarkable idea given the sheer talent of that duo.

With the Suns' collection of young players circa 2004, Nash amounted to a much better fit than either Bryant or McGrady. With one of those two, I believe that Phoenix would have proved significantly less successful, especially in McGrady's case, given that the Suns would have probably needed to part with both Marion and Johnson. Besides, as I indicated, McGrady simply was not as good of a player as Bryant, although he would have paired more easily with Amare Stoudemire in the pick-and-roll.
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Re: Suns History 

Post#73 » by bwgood77 » Sun Jun 24, 2018 5:47 am

GMATCallahan wrote:
bwgood77 wrote:I remember seeing fan reactions...fans being interviewed on tv after the Marbury to Knicks trade and everyone was just incredulous..."they don't know what they are doing", etc...

And then getting McDyess back. I remember wanting to keep him...I think he ended up signing a very reasonable deal in Detroit...I thought he would be a good backup big to have behind Marion/Stoudemire...and would have been much cheaper than Q, allowing, and we likely would have been ok with the JJ extension and using our draft pick on Iguodala that year.

As I recall, we had agreed to trade that pick early and later said we didn't think Iguodala or Deng would be available. Interesting that it would have given Sarver the opportunity to draft a University of Arizona player in his first draft near the top of the draft. 14 years later, finally, he was able to.


Yeah, you have mentioned the McDyess idea before, and in retrospect, the Suns probably would have been better off by following your idea. Consider at the time, though, that McDyess had played in a grand total of 52 games over the previous three seasons. Although the contract that he signed with Detroit (four years, $23M) proved modest, it still might have seemed like a significant risk.

Ultimately, as I wrote earlier, the Richardson contract did not constitute a reasonable impediment to inking Johnson to that extension. I sense that Sarver, as a rookie owner, did not understand the nature of NBA market economics and instead brought his banking mentality to basketball.

By the way, referring to a point of yours a few posts ago, I am sure that D'Antoni's natural instincts were to play small, but based on what he has said in the past, the actual decision to discard a true center from the starting lineup and go small only emerged after the Suns started practicing and playing together that fall. That element, though, is what really maximized the Suns' floor spacing to optimize Phoenix's fast break and pick-and-roll—and thus Nash's performance—and it probably would not have been the same in the short term with Iguodala or Deng.

Do you remember your reaction to the Marbury trade? And what were your thoughts of him as a player with Phoenix?


I honestly can't remember my reactions of the Marbury trade...I think just more kind of curious on what we planned to do to replace him. I was never a huge Marbury fan, but he obviously had some talent...but of course, you know, after being used to KJ and then Kidd, he didn't seem particularly special and was making a lot of money.
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Re: Suns History 

Post#74 » by DirtyDez » Sun Jun 24, 2018 6:09 am

GMATCallahan wrote:
DirtyDez wrote:There was still the thought at that time the Suns could trade for a superstar like Kobe or T-Mac so the Suns weren’t going to spend on role players but McDyess would’ve been a great backup on those teams. Ultimately the Lakers decided to keep Kobe over Shaq and Houston traded their starting backcourt for McGrady before the start of FA. Nash was a pretty good backup plan looking back.


Bryant was a free agent, but, yeah, the Suns were definitely interested. I always thought that the idea of signing him seemed far-fetched, though, and Phoenix seemed to have hedged its bets when Nash agreed to the Suns' offer.

http://articles.latimes.com/2004/jul/02/sports/sp-lakerep2

And that decision by Phoenix probably proved wise, because based on Bryant's own comments to Shaquille O'Neal in their recent mutual interview on NBA TV, he was going to join the Chicago Bulls until the Lakers decided to trade O'Neal.

Trading for McGrady allegedly would have cost both Shawn Marion and Joe Johnson, a notion that never made sense to me. By 2004, I was not high on McGrady, and despite some special abilities on his part, I frankly do not consider him a "great" player. He created, or settled for, a ton of bad shots, hence his career .519 True Shooting Percentage with only one season above .532 and only two higher than .526. Whatever the Basketball Hall of Fame may value, it is not offensive efficiency or wise, disciplined offense.

Of course, if the Grizzlies had not foolishly turned down the Suns' offer of Steve Nash for the fourth overall pick in the 1997 draft (which Vancouver used on Antonio Daniels), I would have loved to have seen Phoenix select McGrady in retrospect. Can you imagine a lineup, circa 2000 or 2001, with Jason Kidd, Tracy McGrady, Clifford Robinson, and Antonio McDyess? I am not sure if it would have produced a championship, but it would have been really fun to watch, and the defensive potential—with all that size, length, and quickness—would have almost matched the offensive potential. Even a lineup with Kidd, Wesley Person, McGrady, and Robinson at point guard, shooting guard, small forward, and power forward, respectively, would have given Phoenix a fine foundation for championship contention.

Bryant suffered from that same basic flaw as McGrady (as did the latter's cousin, Vince Carter), but he was tougher and more tenacious and a much better free throw shooter. Still, I am not sure if he would have ever won a championship without Phil Jackson and the triangle offense (and, of course, an elite big man within the triangle). Although he often struggled to play within the triangle, I sense that it provided just enough balance and structure to allow a club to win championships (ultimately five of them) with Kobe Bryant. But without Jackson, there seems little chance that O'Neal and Bryant would have ever won a title together, which is a remarkable idea given the sheer talent of that duo.

With the Suns' collection of young players circa 2004, Nash amounted to a much better fit than either Bryant or McGrady. With one of those two, I believe that Phoenix would have proved significantly less successful, especially in McGrady's case, given that the Suns would have probably needed to part with both Marion and Johnson. Besides, as I indicated, McGrady simply was not as good of a player as Bryant, although he would have paired more easily with Amare Stoudemire in the pick-and-roll.


Yeah I think Kobe showed a little bit of interest because he was a fan of D’Antoni growing up in Italy. They never sounded like a serious threat to sign him though. He knew they wouldn’t choose Shaq over him.
fromthetop321 wrote:I got Lebron number 1, he is also leading defensive player of the year. Curry's game still reminds me of Jeremy Lin to much.
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Re: Suns History 

Post#75 » by GMATCallahan » Sun Jun 24, 2018 6:37 am

DirtyDez wrote:Yeah I think Kobe showed a little bit of interest because he was a fan of D’Antoni growing up in Italy. They never sounded like a serious threat to sign him though. He knew they wouldn’t choose Shaq over him.


... yes, good point. But as we have both acknowledged, he seemed to be looking at Phoenix primarily just to keep all his options open and go through the process. Evidently, his preferred alternative to the Lakers was Chicago—he must have been that intent on following in Jordan's footsteps.

I remember when the rift between Bryant and O'Neal first emerged during the '00-'01 season. I liked the idea of the Suns trading Kidd for Bryant, but apparently Phil Jackson wanted both Kidd and Marion—and Jerry Buss would not trade Bryant regardless.
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Re: Suns History 

Post#76 » by bwgood77 » Thu Jul 5, 2018 6:15 pm

Big NBA Fan wrote:Been a long time since I have posted at RealGM, but I was reading through this thread and noticed yet another tired Shaq/Marion trade criticism and it's time to set the facts right instead of using a selective memory to protect Marion's sacred legacy at all costs.

It's no different than how the Phil Jackson supporters mistreated MDA in Los Angeles or how the Michael Jordan fans like Skip Bayless bash LeBron at every opportunity to protect MJ.

Marion's legacy as a Sun is secure; he is clearly the best SF in franchise history and his 2006 season was insane. And he was super unlucky with the controversial suspensions in 2007. And yes, the trade did not work out. However, there are several irrefutable facts that need to be mentioned...

- He was an absolute disaster in Miami in a contract year; averaged only 11 PPG (!) and got traded midway through his first full season with them and then bad-mouthed Spoelstra on his way out.

Why doesn't he get called out for that? Because people are always trying to defend their original opinions. And he was only 29 years old when he was a member of the Heat. Nobody was expecting him to be 2006 Matrix, but he was expected to be a lot better.

He had every chance to show the world he was worthy of a max deal and he failed miserably. Not even Mark Cuban gave him anywhere near what he demanded from Sarver and Kerr which led to his trade demand and subsequent bad attitude in the locker-room.

His only positive contribution to the Heat was that he was very popular with his team-mates despite his dissatisfaction with their style of play.

- The 2010 team, the best team of the Nash era, did not have Matrix and hardly had a better record than the 2009 team after 53 games; 30-23 in 2009 and 31-22 in 2010. Why is that important?

Because it was Game 54 in 2009 where STAT suffered a season-ending injury and Diaw (traded) was no longer available.

The Marion fans act- in an attempt to blame Shaq for everything- that STAT didn't suffer a season-ending injury, that Terry Porter (who was hated by the team) wasn't the coach, etc.

STAT was an MVP candidate in 2010 and they played their best basketball that year with a true C in Lopez. STAT put up 28/10 with Shaq under MDA, which is why I laugh at the critics who say they could not have co-existed.

- Marion sucked against the Spurs in 2005/2010/2014; completely no-showed all 3 times which is why I am skeptical that they would have won the whole thing in 2008 with him without KT or an elite post defender against Prime Duncan/Peak Gasol with the Lakers and Kobe.

These are all facts I have stated, and sometimes the truth hurts. And the truth is that Shaq played way better for the Suns than Marion did for the Heat (Who saw that coming), the offense under Gentry post-Porter in 2009 increased their scoring by 15 PPG after Terry was dismissed (Demonstrating who really slowed the team down), and that STAT's season ending injury in 2009 and the Porter fiasco were out of Shaq's control.

Steve Kerr, not him, made the costly error of Porter and STAT's season-ending injury was devastating. Was losing Prime STAT for 29 games NOT supposed to hurt? And they STILL only missed the playoffs by one game.

If Kerr had hired Alvin instead of Porter from the beginning and STAT played all 82 games in 2009, the Suns would have had a successful season that year with Shaquille.

Shaq was awesome in 2009, even though the Marion fans don't want to admit it.

And I don't even like Shaq on a personal level. But I have to call things as I see it.


I definitely wouldn't have made the Shaq trade, but you obviously have a right to your opinion.
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Re: Suns History 

Post#77 » by Big NBA Fan » Thu Jul 5, 2018 6:21 pm

I know it was a tremendously unpopular trade, and like I said, I don't even like the guy.

I'm just saying that the things that went wrong in 2009 like the Porter debacle, STAT's season-ending injury, Diaw not being available anymore, etc. were NOT his fault.

It could have worked with some better luck on their side.

It was like everything that could have gone wrong, went wrong whether it was Tim Duncan's miracle 3 pointer in Game 1, losing Grant Hill in that same game (their best defender), MDA getting horribly outcoached, Mike quitting, Porter over Gentry, Amare missing 29 games, etc.

What have the Suns accomplished since STAT left? Nothing! Sad, but true.

Even the great Steve Nash missed the playoffs 3 out of his last 4 years in Phoenix before he became washed-up in LA and was part of the most disastrous super-team ever...the 2013 Lakers.
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Re: Suns History 

Post#78 » by scooper1030 » Fri Aug 10, 2018 7:16 pm

For any Suns history buffs out there, The Timeline Podcast (which I must shamefully admit I co-host) just released a documentary episode about the 2009-2010 season. We got an original interview with Espo who shows up throughout the episode, but we also filled it with soundbites of game highlights, player interviews, reactions from analysts like Bill Simmons and Jalen Rose, and more. It's the first time we decided to go for a narrative episode instead of a discussion about the current team...but we'll be back to discussing the current Suns next week.

If you're interested in listening you can find the episode here (https://thetimelinepodcast.com/2018/08/09/episode-10-special-an-oral-history-of-the-2009-2010-phoenix-suns-featuring-espo/) or by searching The Timeline: A Phoenix Suns Podcast on iTunes, Google Play or Stitcher.

Hope I'm not breaking any self-promotion rules here by doing this, if so mods just please let me know.

Thanks!
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Re: Suns History 

Post#79 » by bwgood77 » Thu Sep 6, 2018 8:51 pm

This bolded part below is hilarious...came across it in a Boris Diaw retirement thread...

"When we acquired Boris in 2006, he was probably the fastest guy on the team from end to end. He could also really leap. Yet somehow he doesn't rely on his athleticism to get things done. It's almost like he uses it as a last resort."

You hear similar tales of awe from those who were with Diaw in Atlanta too.

"Everybody loves the chase-down block that LeBron is so good at, right?" Stotts said. "When we were watching video of [Diaw] before we drafted him, I can't tell you how many of those we saw. He's deceptively athletic with great timing and instincts. He has a wingspan that's deceptive too."

The capper comes from Cleveland Cavaliers general manager David Griffin, who, like Quinter, was an integral part of the Suns' front-office team when Diaw was acquired in a sign-and-trade for Joe Johnson orchestrated by then-Suns personnel chief Bryan Colangelo.

"Boris walks into the gym one day wearing flip-flops and holding his customary cappuccino, which was a staple for him every morning," Griffin recalled. "It was during pre-draft workouts, so he sees the Vertec [machine] and asks what it is.

"We tell him it measures your vertical leap by determining how many of the bars you can touch. He asks what's the highest anyone has ever gone, and we tell him Amare' [Stoudemire] cleared the entire rack.

"Boris puts down the cappuccino, takes off his flip-flops and clears the entire rack on the first try. Then he calmly puts his flip-flops back on, picks up his cappuccino and walks away, saying, 'That was not difficult.'"


http://www.espn.com/nba/playoffs/2014/story/_/id/11084748/boris-diaw-dishes-san-antonio-spurs
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Re: Suns History 

Post#80 » by TASTIC » Fri Sep 7, 2018 2:50 am

scooper1030 wrote:For any Suns history buffs out there, The Timeline Podcast (which I must shamefully admit I co-host) just released a documentary episode about the 2009-2010 season. We got an original interview with Espo who shows up throughout the episode, but we also filled it with soundbites of game highlights, player interviews, reactions from analysts like Bill Simmons and Jalen Rose, and more. It's the first time we decided to go for a narrative episode instead of a discussion about the current team...but we'll be back to discussing the current Suns next week.

If you're interested in listening you can find the episode here (https://thetimelinepodcast.com/2018/08/09/episode-10-special-an-oral-history-of-the-2009-2010-phoenix-suns-featuring-espo/) or by searching The Timeline: A Phoenix Suns Podcast on iTunes, Google Play or Stitcher.

Hope I'm not breaking any self-promotion rules here by doing this, if so mods just please let me know.

Thanks!

That was a crazy season - the one me and the Aussie mob did the Destination Phoenix tour...Epic!
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