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NBA Draft and NCAA Basketball

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Who would you take at 3 if Ayton/Doncic gone?

Bamba
9
13%
Bagley
11
16%
Jackson
9
13%
Porter
25
36%
Young
16
23%
 
Total votes: 70

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Re: NBA Draft and NCAA Basketball 

Post#1641 » by Revived » Tue Feb 20, 2018 5:37 am

Mulhollanddrive wrote:Mike James shot a higher FG% than Trae Young's last 11 games.

11 pts, 9 assists and 5 turnovers on 3/13 shooting from the field and 1/5 from three for Trae Young today.

I’m with the people who think he will struggle in the NBA.

He reminds me an awful lot of Jimmer Fredette. Like Trae Young, Jimmer also was on a basketball team with zero talent where he was the main and only good player on the team and put up lot of really good numbers.

Right now Trae has more Jimmer in him than Steph Curry or even Seth Curry.
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Re: NBA Draft and NCAA Basketball 

Post#1642 » by Mulhollanddrive » Tue Feb 20, 2018 6:16 am

Trae Young scored 87 extra points from off the dribble 3's in his 10 highest scoring games vs 10 lowest scoring games.
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Re: NBA Draft and NCAA Basketball 

Post#1643 » by LV-Suns » Tue Feb 20, 2018 7:53 am

AtheJ415 wrote:
1UPZ wrote:I'm bitter with Chriss because I like Bogdanovic and seeing him play well is a kick in the nuts... Especially when Chriss pouts and play dumb and lazy


Bogdan is 5 years older and making $9.5 mil per year. I'd argue it's debatable if he is even worth his contract, and the upside gap is not comparable. And I say that as someone who also likes Bogdan. Once he declined to come on a rookie deal his value went out the window.

Well, we pay Dudley 10 mil a year.
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Re: NBA Draft and NCAA Basketball 

Post#1644 » by NavLDO » Tue Feb 20, 2018 11:41 am

bwgood77 wrote:
NavLDO wrote:
bwgood77 wrote:
Trae because Booker knows him? He seems to like to be the guy who wants the ball the most and to take the most shots. With Trae that might not come as easy. Though they would make each other's games SO much easier and both probably hit like 43%+ from deep and we could erase deficits and build leads in a hurry. If you love it when Booker gets hot, that type of excitement would probably double with Trae. If only Trae had someone like that next to him in college to relieve the double and triple teams.


That's also one of the things that concern me with Young. He came into this season as a relative unknown. He was likely still the best player on Oklahoma coming into the season, but obviously, he was not even close to being a 1st Rd pick consideration in October, let alone, Lottery or Top 5. Then he has a brilliant non-conference schedule, going 10-1, with gawdy stats, then reality strikes, and since, he's only been 6-9, with decreasing stats.

He hasn't fared wonderfully against some of the better PGs coming out, either, in Jevon Carter, Kerwin Roach, and Graham. Additionally, some of these guys that are also the only 'real' talents on their clubs are finding ways to be successful, even though they are the target of opposing double and triple teams, as well...Landry Shamet, Khyri Thomas, Jevon Carter, Shake Milton, and Colin Sexton, etc.

I'll be honest, Young is losing his luster, some. I think he'll be ok in the NBA, but I certainly do not want to waste a top 5 pick on him when there are other talents to be had early, and quite a few nice shooting PGs in the draft that can be taken later, as well.


Young was underrated then he probably got overrated a bit though most places still didn't put him into top 5, even though many here did (for me he hovered around in that top 5 but I think I voted Porter at 2 even when Young was peaking). And now he is struggling, though he is playing in one of the tougher conferences (probably the toughest top to bottom) with no other real high profile national recruits like Ayton and Bagley. So comparing him based on win/loss relative to those guys isn't fair. The team is largely the same as last year, and they were 11-20. It's not like Fultz going 2-14 in conference play or whatever it was, when he joined a team that had made the NIT the year before.

Young was the 20th ranked prospect coming in

NEWCOMER OF THE YEAR: TRAE YOUNG, OKLAHOMA
Young, the No. 20 prospect in the class of 2017 according to the Recruiting Services Consensus Index, reportedly drew scholarship offers from brand-name programs like Duke, Kansas, Kentucky and Arizona, but the Norman North (Okla.) product elected to stay home and play for the Sooners.


https://www.si.com/college-basketball/2017/10/23/big-12-preview-projections-rankings-standings

But he wasn't in most first round mocks. I wasn't high on any of the PGs though prior to Young emerging though. I think most of them are career backups.

Some of the draft gurus on the NBA draft board (some of these guys are very good) were on high him...particularly Fischella, the guy you ranted on about his team's terrible trade for McDermott. viewtopic.php?f=38&t=1624106&start=20#p60369734

viewtopic.php?f=38&t=1624106#start_here

He even came around and told us in our draft thread very early how he liked him better than Sexton, and I asked him how come he is not in a mock..he mentioned he was in his and some people pointed out others, such a tankathons who had him in there in the mid teens.

No one expected Young to lead this team without top tier prospects to being ranked in the top 5, but now they are tumbling, as AZ did when they fell out of the polls losing 3 straight early in the year. The PAC 12 isn't nearly as tough as the BIG 12 either.

His non conference schedule wasn't that easy overall though, as they played two ranked teams, beating #3 Wichita St, and #25 USC and also beat Oregon. Then they played Arkansas. Then they also beat some ranked teams in conference...# 5 ranked Kansas, #10 TCU twice and #16 Texas Tech.

I have always been high on shooters and passers though, and of course the slump and the turnovers are concerning. I watched him live and really felt he is an elite passer. Very good at getting to the line.

As far as his shooting I'm still convinced he will be the best shooter out of the draft. It's been broken down with much more context than you have provided and that his high percentage of nba length 3 pointers combined with the high % of shots off the dribble, impact that %, because as a catch and shoot guy, he is a much better shooter, and he'd probably shoot much more of those in the NBA when the ball swings around more and he is open.

I think he would probably relieve Booker's job the most of the prospects (other than Doncic and maybe Porter, though he would draw some bigger guys), because other perimeter defenders would have to focus on Trae, leaving Booker more shots, and vice versa.

But I like him and Porter a lot because we desperately need shooting.

What concerns me on Bagley is mostly his defense and rim protection, and probably not playing C, and then his subpar 3 pt shooting in conf play on limited volume, but what many advanced experts consider the better translation of shooting is the ft% where he shoots 62%...we already have that problem with JJ.

I do like the thought of Bender pairing with Bagley in the front court since Bender can play D and probably rim protect better and Bagley is very aggressive and a good rebounder and scorer. So theoretically the pairing could work.

The thing is, to me, all the prospects have question marks and weaknesses, and shooting is the biggest premium skill needed in the NBA and we are one of the worst shooting teams.

But Ayton's lack of defense or great rim protection (though the latter isn't bad), possibly wanting to play PF, is not bad, but given his sheer dominance, he's hard to pass on in top 2 or 3, particularly at 2 if he is in the tier and equal with other guys given our needs.

But our other big weakness as a team is defense....and not having defense at the C spot is worse than not having it at the PG spot (though the Booker pairing could hurt).

Was was interesting to read today...is that even though we rank as the worst defense since 2008-9, we rank 10th in forcing the opposition to take difficult shots. That seems odd and I'm not sure what to make of that. I think Bender disrupts a lot of shots, and Jackson can be a hound, but that is just an odd stat. It leads me to believe, Triano is coaching them to force opponents to make tough shots, but our talent is lacking overall...perhaps that's not it given his history of being a bad defensive coach though.

Now about JJJ...he sounds so enticing because he can rim protect with that insane block % and he is an excellent defender, AND he is an elite 3 pt shooter. Those are all the perfect skills. He is also the youngest guy in the draft.

In theory, for today's nba, the top 3 based on the NBA today should be Doncic, Porter and JJJ...and possibly Young. But then you have the fact JJJ is a little more raw/young...so might take a little time, and Porter has the back injury.

I LOVE the idea of playing Porter at the 4 like Durant/George..IF healthy.

Then the bigs with defensive issues are the more dominant players/scorers but can we afford a bad defensive frontcourt for our future? Given our defensive problems in the back court?

But then again, what if Ayton is Towns and Bagley is a more aggressive Bosh?

Ultimately, after Doncic

Bamba is good defensively and he seems more boom/bust. Young could be too.

Ultimately I would really want Doncic at 1, and after that it's tough...based on the type of players in today's NBA JJJ and Porter are awfully tempting, but the dominance of Ayton/Bagley is tough to pass. Ultimately I will be fine with any of the top 6 in that second range....with Bamba just outside for now...and Bagley is just getting in there for me...and Young hovering around the bottom of that top tier.

The funny thing is, I was the one pointing out Trae's downfall and weaknesses and slump before you jumped on and argued with me about it (because people were talking taking him at 1) and I thought if we go PG you have to go Doncic over him. PG was hands down our biggest need a couple weeks ago so that needed to change with no options in FA...especially if that tier was too close to call.

I also really value thestepien's analysis and rankings as they seem to do a lot of in depth research....they still have Young in their top 2, but that last ranking was updated 1/30 so I'd be interested to see if they move him down. I would like to see more analysis on that.

Also, I thought Bagley was probably #1 before the season, but his weaknesses concerned me. He does seem like the type of guy what will work the hardest to improve though, and the Duke coach says he has that mindset of guys he coached on the olympics, so I think he could conceivably become a good 3 pt shooter while starting out like Bosh where he stretches the floor somewhat though not from 3 as much to being career...and could get better at defense and free throws.

You have potential work ethic issues with Ayton as well...but the dominance is hard to ignore.

Sorry for the long post...maybe some redundancies, but I'm sure you're quite used to long posts.

Edit: OKLA with a VERY slow start against KU, but of course KU is one of the top teams and most stacked teams in the country who has won 14 consecutive BIG 12 regular season conf championships, AND are at home, with Young being smothered, the usual as of late.

Ultimately though, I think an Ayton (or any big) and Shai-Gilgeous would be a great pairing or Doncic or possibly Young, and Mitchell Robinson, Robert Williams or Daniel Gafford.


First off, I'm not sure why you any of our our 'debates' as 'arguments'...I certainly do not, when we are talking basketball, of course.

Secondly, regarding Trae being 20th, yes, I know...

https://sites.google.com/site/rscihoops/2017-final

...but, as you can see, being 20th in one out of 4 available draft-able classes puts you well outside the 1st Rd consideration. And I never debated that he wasn't underrated, I wholeheartedly agree that he was, but as you've stated, he then became overrated. He looked great.

All I am saying is that, as you alluded, now that he's attracted some attention, he's not dealing with it with the same amazing results; when I say 'waste a Top 5 pick', that is because I am a believer that Eldfird, plus anyone of these 'Trae-lite' talents will do just fine for us. I don't think it's s stretch to say that these guys came into the season with higher expectations than Trae did...FOR THIS SEASON. They've been receiving attention from the get-go, and IMO, have been able to succeed; Trae 'went nuts' while no one was watching, but now that they are, I'm just saying that his 'luster' has worn off a bit. He's still ranked above these other guys; if we end up with a late lotto pick, and he's available, with the rest of these...

http://www.tankathon.com/players/compare?players=jevon-carter--shake-milton--landry-shamet--khyri-thomas--trae-young

Yeah, I'm still taking Young. So I'm not 'dissing' Young, I'm just saying he's falling back into the more natural order of things is all.

As far as Fishella...I could give a rats-patooty about what he said about Trae Young...A broken clock gives the correct time twice a day, too...What he said about Payton--coming into our forum--didn't need to be said, and it was trolling and you know it. But go ahead and defend his actions...just remember who went into who's forum to crap on their new acquisition...with zero foundation, or reason, for doing it.

Doncic? Yeah, I questioned him early on in the process because I simply had not watched him; I was unaware of his abilities at PG. But now, I'm excited for him due to his versatility. Between Doncic, Booker, JJ, Elfrid, and Warren, I think we can do some damage at the 1-3 spots. That leaves Chriss, Bender, and Sauce for bigs (and Warren, depending), so we'd have to hope a player falls and Miami does as well. If Miami falls out of Playoff contention (which, if you read my other post, I do not believe will happen), we May be able to snag Carter or Miles Bridges, which would be fantastic, IMO. But if we drafted later, likely Mitchell Robinson, Brandon McCoy, Chimezie Metu, Jontay Porter, or Daniel Gafford.

Assuming we get our druthers, though...when one lays it out on paper...is a Doncic / Gafford draft better for us than, say, an Ayton / Shai Gilgeous-Alexander? I guess it depends on that 2nd player, really. Doncic / Carter, is, for sure. Maybe Doncic / Porter even. But Ayton / Milton or Khyri Thomas may not...IDK.

As far as Bagley, I think he's becoming underrated at this point in Draftnik circles, and I think some of it has to do with his lack of Elite measurables. They are just 'ok'. I wonder what GMs think? Bamba, also plays in that same conference with Young, and has shown to be dominant on the boards and blocks. Carter has consistently been underrated, IMO, and JJJ has now finally, come into his own. Porter Jr. will likely be an amazing offensive force from the PF position, which we desperately need. I think we come away with one of those 5, since I do not see us winning the Lottery, and I DO see Doncic being selected 1st.
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Re: NBA Draft and NCAA Basketball 

Post#1645 » by kennydorglas » Tue Feb 20, 2018 12:20 pm

Trae still has .579 TS% 24.2 PER and +6.6 NetRtg against .500+ opp
I dont think he's bad as he's playing now, same with being that crazy **** who started the season on fuego.
It's probably something in the middle and i'm very cool with it.

shooting/playmaking/shifty ballhandling is a HELL of combo.
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Re: NBA Draft and NCAA Basketball 

Post#1646 » by m1chal » Tue Feb 20, 2018 1:28 pm

I'm not a college ball expert but assuming Payton continues to play well and ends the season on a high note why would we even look at any PG except perhaps Doncic given holes we have at frontcourt positions? I understand Young has shooting, playmaking and ballhandling skills but I also read there are doubts about his size and defense. I'm not sure we can put a poor defender next to Booker. Doncic or a skilled big man please, McD.
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Re: NBA Draft and NCAA Basketball 

Post#1647 » by Saberestar » Tue Feb 20, 2018 1:39 pm

m1chal wrote:I'm not a college ball expert but assuming Payton continues to play well and ends the season on a high note why would we even look at any PG except perhaps Doncic given holes we have at frontcourt positions? I understand Young has shooting, playmaking and ballhandling skills but I also read there are doubts about his size and defense. I'm not sure we can put a poor defender next to Booker. Doncic or a skilled big man please, McD.

Can Payton and Booker play 48 minutes per game during 82 games + (hopefully) playoffs?

Payton is big enough to play some minutes next to Trae.

Yeah, we need more good talented players on this roster.

I do not care about Ulis, Reed, Knight, House, Canaan, Daniels and Gray. A couple of them can be on the team to complete the roster next season, but we can not relay on them at all.
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Re: NBA Draft and NCAA Basketball 

Post#1648 » by bwgood77 » Tue Feb 20, 2018 1:44 pm

Spoiler:
NavLDO wrote:
bwgood77 wrote:
NavLDO wrote:
That's also one of the things that concern me with Young. He came into this season as a relative unknown. He was likely still the best player on Oklahoma coming into the season, but obviously, he was not even close to being a 1st Rd pick consideration in October, let alone, Lottery or Top 5. Then he has a brilliant non-conference schedule, going 10-1, with gawdy stats, then reality strikes, and since, he's only been 6-9, with decreasing stats.

He hasn't fared wonderfully against some of the better PGs coming out, either, in Jevon Carter, Kerwin Roach, and Graham. Additionally, some of these guys that are also the only 'real' talents on their clubs are finding ways to be successful, even though they are the target of opposing double and triple teams, as well...Landry Shamet, Khyri Thomas, Jevon Carter, Shake Milton, and Colin Sexton, etc.

I'll be honest, Young is losing his luster, some. I think he'll be ok in the NBA, but I certainly do not want to waste a top 5 pick on him when there are other talents to be had early, and quite a few nice shooting PGs in the draft that can be taken later, as well.


Young was underrated then he probably got overrated a bit though most places still didn't put him into top 5, even though many here did (for me he hovered around in that top 5 but I think I voted Porter at 2 even when Young was peaking). And now he is struggling, though he is playing in one of the tougher conferences (probably the toughest top to bottom) with no other real high profile national recruits like Ayton and Bagley. So comparing him based on win/loss relative to those guys isn't fair. The team is largely the same as last year, and they were 11-20. It's not like Fultz going 2-14 in conference play or whatever it was, when he joined a team that had made the NIT the year before.

Young was the 20th ranked prospect coming in

NEWCOMER OF THE YEAR: TRAE YOUNG, OKLAHOMA
Young, the No. 20 prospect in the class of 2017 according to the Recruiting Services Consensus Index, reportedly drew scholarship offers from brand-name programs like Duke, Kansas, Kentucky and Arizona, but the Norman North (Okla.) product elected to stay home and play for the Sooners.


https://www.si.com/college-basketball/2017/10/23/big-12-preview-projections-rankings-standings

But he wasn't in most first round mocks. I wasn't high on any of the PGs though prior to Young emerging though. I think most of them are career backups.

Some of the draft gurus on the NBA draft board (some of these guys are very good) were on high him...particularly Fischella, the guy you ranted on about his team's terrible trade for McDermott. viewtopic.php?f=38&t=1624106&start=20#p60369734

viewtopic.php?f=38&t=1624106#start_here

He even came around and told us in our draft thread very early how he liked him better than Sexton, and I asked him how come he is not in a mock..he mentioned he was in his and some people pointed out others, such a tankathons who had him in there in the mid teens.

No one expected Young to lead this team without top tier prospects to being ranked in the top 5, but now they are tumbling, as AZ did when they fell out of the polls losing 3 straight early in the year. The PAC 12 isn't nearly as tough as the BIG 12 either.

His non conference schedule wasn't that easy overall though, as they played two ranked teams, beating #3 Wichita St, and #25 USC and also beat Oregon. Then they played Arkansas. Then they also beat some ranked teams in conference...# 5 ranked Kansas, #10 TCU twice and #16 Texas Tech.

I have always been high on shooters and passers though, and of course the slump and the turnovers are concerning. I watched him live and really felt he is an elite passer. Very good at getting to the line.

As far as his shooting I'm still convinced he will be the best shooter out of the draft. It's been broken down with much more context than you have provided and that his high percentage of nba length 3 pointers combined with the high % of shots off the dribble, impact that %, because as a catch and shoot guy, he is a much better shooter, and he'd probably shoot much more of those in the NBA when the ball swings around more and he is open.

I think he would probably relieve Booker's job the most of the prospects (other than Doncic and maybe Porter, though he would draw some bigger guys), because other perimeter defenders would have to focus on Trae, leaving Booker more shots, and vice versa.

But I like him and Porter a lot because we desperately need shooting.

What concerns me on Bagley is mostly his defense and rim protection, and probably not playing C, and then his subpar 3 pt shooting in conf play on limited volume, but what many advanced experts consider the better translation of shooting is the ft% where he shoots 62%...we already have that problem with JJ.

I do like the thought of Bender pairing with Bagley in the front court since Bender can play D and probably rim protect better and Bagley is very aggressive and a good rebounder and scorer. So theoretically the pairing could work.

The thing is, to me, all the prospects have question marks and weaknesses, and shooting is the biggest premium skill needed in the NBA and we are one of the worst shooting teams.

But Ayton's lack of defense or great rim protection (though the latter isn't bad), possibly wanting to play PF, is not bad, but given his sheer dominance, he's hard to pass on in top 2 or 3, particularly at 2 if he is in the tier and equal with other guys given our needs.

But our other big weakness as a team is defense....and not having defense at the C spot is worse than not having it at the PG spot (though the Booker pairing could hurt).

Was was interesting to read today...is that even though we rank as the worst defense since 2008-9, we rank 10th in forcing the opposition to take difficult shots. That seems odd and I'm not sure what to make of that. I think Bender disrupts a lot of shots, and Jackson can be a hound, but that is just an odd stat. It leads me to believe, Triano is coaching them to force opponents to make tough shots, but our talent is lacking overall...perhaps that's not it given his history of being a bad defensive coach though.

Now about JJJ...he sounds so enticing because he can rim protect with that insane block % and he is an excellent defender, AND he is an elite 3 pt shooter. Those are all the perfect skills. He is also the youngest guy in the draft.

In theory, for today's nba, the top 3 based on the NBA today should be Doncic, Porter and JJJ...and possibly Young. But then you have the fact JJJ is a little more raw/young...so might take a little time, and Porter has the back injury.

I LOVE the idea of playing Porter at the 4 like Durant/George..IF healthy.

Then the bigs with defensive issues are the more dominant players/scorers but can we afford a bad defensive frontcourt for our future? Given our defensive problems in the back court?

But then again, what if Ayton is Towns and Bagley is a more aggressive Bosh?

Ultimately, after Doncic

Bamba is good defensively and he seems more boom/bust. Young could be too.

Ultimately I would really want Doncic at 1, and after that it's tough...based on the type of players in today's NBA JJJ and Porter are awfully tempting, but the dominance of Ayton/Bagley is tough to pass. Ultimately I will be fine with any of the top 6 in that second range....with Bamba just outside for now...and Bagley is just getting in there for me...and Young hovering around the bottom of that top tier.

The funny thing is, I was the one pointing out Trae's downfall and weaknesses and slump before you jumped on and argued with me about it (because people were talking taking him at 1) and I thought if we go PG you have to go Doncic over him. PG was hands down our biggest need a couple weeks ago so that needed to change with no options in FA...especially if that tier was too close to call.

I also really value thestepien's analysis and rankings as they seem to do a lot of in depth research....they still have Young in their top 2, but that last ranking was updated 1/30 so I'd be interested to see if they move him down. I would like to see more analysis on that.

Also, I thought Bagley was probably #1 before the season, but his weaknesses concerned me. He does seem like the type of guy what will work the hardest to improve though, and the Duke coach says he has that mindset of guys he coached on the olympics, so I think he could conceivably become a good 3 pt shooter while starting out like Bosh where he stretches the floor somewhat though not from 3 as much to being career...and could get better at defense and free throws.

You have potential work ethic issues with Ayton as well...but the dominance is hard to ignore.

Sorry for the long post...maybe some redundancies, but I'm sure you're quite used to long posts.

Edit: OKLA with a VERY slow start against KU, but of course KU is one of the top teams and most stacked teams in the country who has won 14 consecutive BIG 12 regular season conf championships, AND are at home, with Young being smothered, the usual as of late.

Ultimately though, I think an Ayton (or any big) and Shai-Gilgeous would be a great pairing or Doncic or possibly Young, and Mitchell Robinson, Robert Williams or Daniel Gafford.


First off, I'm not sure why you any of our our 'debates' as 'arguments'...I certainly do not, when we are talking basketball, of course.

Secondly, regarding Trae being 20th, yes, I know...

https://sites.google.com/site/rscihoops/2017-final

...but, as you can see, being 20th in one out of 4 available draft-able classes puts you well outside the 1st Rd consideration. And I never debated that he wasn't underrated, I wholeheartedly agree that he was, but as you've stated, he then became overrated. He looked great.

All I am saying is that, as you alluded, now that he's attracted some attention, he's not dealing with it with the same amazing results; when I say 'waste a Top 5 pick', that is because I am a believer that Eldfird, plus anyone of these 'Trae-lite' talents will do just fine for us. I don't think it's s stretch to say that these guys came into the season with higher expectations than Trae did...FOR THIS SEASON. They've been receiving attention from the get-go, and IMO, have been able to succeed; Trae 'went nuts' while no one was watching, but now that they are, I'm just saying that his 'luster' has worn off a bit. He's still ranked above these other guys; if we end up with a late lotto pick, and he's available, with the rest of these...

http://www.tankathon.com/players/compare?players=jevon-carter--shake-milton--landry-shamet--khyri-thomas--trae-young

Yeah, I'm still taking Young. So I'm not 'dissing' Young, I'm just saying he's falling back into the more natural order of things is all.

As far as Fishella...I could give a rats-patooty about what he said about Trae Young...A broken clock gives the correct time twice a day, too...What he said about Payton--coming into our forum--didn't need to be said, and it was trolling and you know it. But go ahead and defend his actions...just remember who went into who's forum to crap on their new acquisition...with zero foundation, or reason, for doing it.

Doncic? Yeah, I questioned him early on in the process because I simply had not watched him; I was unaware of his abilities at PG. But now, I'm excited for him due to his versatility. Between Doncic, Booker, JJ, Elfrid, and Warren, I think we can do some damage at the 1-3 spots. That leaves Chriss, Bender, and Sauce for bigs (and Warren, depending), so we'd have to hope a player falls and Miami does as well. If Miami falls out of Playoff contention (which, if you read my other post, I do not believe will happen), we May be able to snag Carter or Miles Bridges, which would be fantastic, IMO. But if we drafted later, likely Mitchell Robinson, Brandon McCoy, Chimezie Metu, Jontay Porter, or Daniel Gafford.

Assuming we get our druthers, though...when one lays it out on paper...is a Doncic / Gafford draft better for us than, say, an Ayton / Shai Gilgeous-Alexander? I guess it depends on that 2nd player, really. Doncic / Carter, is, for sure. Maybe Doncic / Porter even. But Ayton / Milton or Khyri Thomas may not...IDK.

As far as Bagley, I think he's becoming underrated at this point in Draftnik circles, and I think some of it has to do with his lack of Elite measurables. They are just 'ok'. I wonder what GMs think? Bamba, also plays in that same conference with Young, and has shown to be dominant on the boards and blocks. Carter has consistently been underrated, IMO, and JJJ has now finally, come into his own. Porter Jr. will likely be an amazing offensive force from the PF position, which we desperately need. I think we come away with one of those 5, since I do not see us winning the Lottery, and I DO see Doncic being selected 1st.


As for Payton, I like him. Is he a capable of being a starting quality PG on a top team? Based on his play over the last 4 years, and the vast majority of fans on his previous team, and GMs around the league, and what his current market is, no. He wasn't even a team a rebuilding team thought was worth giving a 2nd contract to, or at least one other team in need of a PG with the GM who drafted him (NY)...they took Mudiay instead.

I am encouraged with him improvement this year but his overall 3 pt shooting and defense over his pro career and defense particularly the last two years, are not great...though 3 pt shooting on his small sample size this year is fine. Ultimately, given what else we had at PG, he is an obvious upgrade and probably the best we can do for next year though unless we land Doncic or Trae.

I don't think Bagley has dropped on all boards, or the majority...just some given his likely inability to play 5, play D, and shoot. However he is top 3 on many boards. For Suns fans he is lower due to us having young player(s) at PF, and the bigger need for a C and PF along with the other options....that bring more defense, rim protection, shooting and/or passing. Ultimately Trae is probably somewhere between 4-7 on our board I'd guess (though most fans on their big board postings have him top 3...with some at 4, some at 5 and a couple lower.

If Porter's health isn't an issue, Trae maybe should be no higher than 5. I hope Porter comes back. I think Trae has a very good chance of going to Orlando or Cleveland if they don't land Doncic. I'll be a little surprised if we take him in the top 3. I think Payton would be a very good back up PG, which we will also need. Or a bottom tier starter unless he continues improvement on both sides of the ball...then maybe he becomes more of an average starter.
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Re: NBA Draft and NCAA Basketball 

Post#1649 » by WeekapaugGroove » Tue Feb 20, 2018 2:37 pm

I think this recent stretch does drop Young unless he can ball out for this final stretch. Partly because I don't think he had risen as much for teams as he had with some draft sites and with fans. Teams have scouting reports on these guys since high school so a guy like him who was ranked in the 20's for his class coming in teams will put some stock into that and when I guy shoots up the boards I think they sometimes try to find reasons doubt that rise; this stretch is giving them those reasons and confirmation on their original thoughts on him.

Now it only takes one team desperate for a PG to fall in love with what he does well and draft him around the 5-7 range but it wouldn't shock me if he went closer to 10 than 5 at this point.

The very best the Suns could hope for with the Miami pick is probably around 12 (they finish 9th in the East and two non-playoff teams in the West are better). I doubt he makes it there but I don't think it's completely impossible.
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Re: NBA Draft and NCAA Basketball 

Post#1650 » by darealjuice » Tue Feb 20, 2018 3:39 pm

New ESPN/Givony Mock Draft for anyone that's interested. Has us taking Luka Doncic #1 and Daniel Gafford at #15 right now. Here's the first 15 picks (spoilered because it's long):

Spoiler:
1. Phoenix Suns
Luka Doncic
Real Madrid
Age: 18.9
PG

The Suns' backcourt is a work in progress after Phoenix traded Eric Bledsoe and brought in Elfrid Payton for what may end up being a rental.

Doncic's size, skill level and versatility allow him to play anywhere from 1 to 4, but there's little doubt that he's at his best with the ball in his hands. He would fit very well with playmaking wings Devin Booker and Josh Jackson.

He's having a phenomenal season in Europe, posting historic numbers in the Euroleague and Spanish ACB for an 18-year-old.

Deandre Ayton will also get a long look here.

2. Atlanta Hawks
Deandre Ayton
Arizona
Freshman
C

The Hawks are not in a position to draft based on need at this stage of their rebuilding effort, and there are question marks about how well promising big man John Collins fits in alongside another center who doesn't protect the rim at an elite rate.

Nevertheless, Ayton has elevated himself into the conversation as a top-two pick with his incredible natural physical tools and high skill level. His rebounding and scoring prowess could be very attractive here, even if Mohamed Bamba might actually be a better fit stylistically.

3. Sacramento Kings
Mohamed Bamba
Texas
Freshman
C

None of the Kings' big men have emerged as franchise cornerstones at this stage, meaning it would be foolish to pass on a top-tier talent due to positional concerns.

Bamba will likely get some looks in the top two as well, given his rare combination of length, shot-blocking instincts and offensive promise. He is starting to make 3-pointers more consistently (10-for-28 in his past 15 games), and his unicorn potential gives him arguably the highest upside of any player in this draft.

4. Cleveland Cavaliers (via Nets)
Jaren Jackson
Michigan State
Freshman
C

At 6-foot-11 and 242 pounds, with a 7-foot-4 wingspan, it's very likely that Jackson will see significant minutes at center in the NBA as his promising frame fills out, rather than at the 4, as he mostly does in college at the moment. Jackson's ability to space the floor (44 percent from 3; 79 percent from the line), block shots (5.9 per 40 minutes), switch on every screen and, increasingly, put the ball on the floor from the perimeter makes him an ideal fit for the modern NBA.

He has significant upside to grow into as well, as he's the youngest player currently projected to be drafted. Jackson is the exact type of player the Cavs sorely need on their roster right now, but he'd be a terrific building block to have regardless of what LeBron James decides to do.

5. Orlando Magic
Marvin Bagley III
Duke
Freshman
C

Although there are some positional concerns regarding Bagley and his fit in the modern NBA, at some point his talent level and sheer production are likely too great to pass on.

The Magic could very well be in the market for a point guard, but there are still question marks about whether Trae Young and Collin Sexton are worthy of being picked this high. Bagley is likely best suited for the center spot, and his scoring instincts, rebounding prowess and athleticism would make for an interesting fit alongside building blocks Aaron Gordon and Jonathan Isaac.

6. Chicago Bulls
Michael Porter Jr.
Missouri
Freshman
PF

The Bulls have a gaping hole at the small forward position, and could use all the firepower they can find from the perimeter. Porter's ability to play alongside Lauri Markkanen should make him very attractive at this spot.

Porter came into the season with the hope of making a run at being the No. 1 pick in the draft, but unfortunately he hasn't been able to build his case because of a back injury. The results of his medical examination will play a significant role in where he is ultimately drafted, but NBA teams don't appear to be especially concerned right now about the nature of the injury and his long-term prognosis.

7. Memphis Grizzlies
Trae Young
Oklahoma
Freshman
PG

Mike Conley is a Memphis cornerstone signed to one of the NBA's most lucrative contracts, but he is already 30 and has struggled to stay healthy in recent seasons. With the Grizzlies' playoff run ending, they will have to think about entering a rebuilding stage -- including drafting for talent rather than need.

Trae Young has been mired in a prolonged shooting slump since exploding onto the national radar, but still is a very intriguing fit in today's NBA with his tremendous passing and scoring ability.

8. Dallas Mavericks
Wendell Carter Jr.
Duke
Freshman
C

Carter's season got off to a slow start, but he has been Duke's best player in 2018 and has recaptured his status as a potential top-10 pick, which is where he started the season.

The Mavs could certainly use help in the frontcourt, and Carter's basketball IQ and versatility are promising in a number of ways.

9. New York Knicks
Collin Sexton
Alabama
Freshman
PG

Frank Ntilikina has had some nice rookie moments, but the Knicks are finding out that the long-armed, 6-foot-5 guard seems better suited playing alongside a more dominant ball handler and shot creator who can take some of the scoring responsibilities off his shoulders.

Enter Sexton, with his tremendous aggressiveness driving the lane, taking off-the-dribble jumpers and putting defensive pressure on opposing guards. NBA teams have some concerns about Sexton's ability to stay healthy due to his reckless style of play. He's been dinged up much of the season, which hasn't helped matters.

10. Philadelphia 76ers (via Lakers)
Mikal Bridges
Villanova
Junior
SF

The Sixers are in line to draft in the top 10 due to the shrewd Michael Carter-Williams trade made by Sam Hinkie three years ago (as long as the pick is not 2nd, 3rd, 4th or 5th, in which case it goes to Boston).

Shooting, defensive versatility, and basketball IQ are what the 76ers need to continue to add, and Bridges brings all of them along with the ability to guard 1 to 4. He isn't as gifted a shot-creator as you'd like from a top-10 pick, but if he's playing alongside the likes of Ben Simmons and Joel Embiid, he won't need to be.

11. Charlotte Hornets
Miles Bridges
Michigan State
Sophomore
SF/PF

Charlotte continues to search for long-term solutions at both forward positions, and will likely look to add athleticism to what's become a fairly disappointing roster.

Bridges is a freakish athlete who has struggled at times to make the full-time transition to small forward, but he undoubtedly has potential as a two-way forward who can guard all over the floor and give you enough shooting, ballhandling and passing to get by at one of the most important positions in today's NBA.

12. LA Clippers (via Pistons)
Kevin Knox
Kentucky
Freshman
PF

The Clippers will likely be looking to add athleticism, shooting and length at the forward positions, where they don't have much depth outside of Tobias Harris.

Knox hasn't had a very efficient freshman season, partially due to his playing out of position, but there's a significant market in the NBA for combo forwards in his mold who can make an open shot, defend multiple positions and offer some offensive versatility. He's one of the youngest players in this draft, so he still has plenty of room to grow.

The Clippers will receive Detroit's pick if it falls outside the top four.

13. LA Clippers
Robert Williams
Texas A&M
Sophomore
C

Williams has had a somewhat disappointing sophomore season while playing out of position as a power forward in traditional dual-post player lineups. His game is tailor-made for the NBA, though -- he has potential as a rim-running, pick-and-roll-finishing, shot-blocker/offensive rebounder in the Clint Capela mold.

With DeAndre Jordan in the final year of his contract, the Clippers could certainly look to Williams as a potential successor.

14. Chicago Bulls (via Pelicans)
Lonnie Walker IV
Miami
Freshman
SG/SF

Chicago's wing rotation is still a work in progress, and could certainly use some more shooting, length and perimeter defensive prowess.

Walker started off the season poorly, but has been much better in ACC play, reestablishing himself as a potential lottery-caliber prospect. The lack of depth at the wing position certainly helps him as well.

His youth, strong frame, 6-foot-10½ wingspan and ability to shoot with his feet set or off the dribble make him a candidate to rise even further during the predraft process as teams search for upside and diamonds in the rough.

15. Phoenix Suns (via Heat)
Daniel Gafford
Arkansas
Freshman
C

Gafford's tremendous physical tools and significant upside will likely mean his name is called somewhere in the top 20 on draft night, if he has a strong predraft process.

Unfortunately the glut of big men in this class (plus the lack of wings around the league) makes it difficult for him to crack the lottery in this team-needs-based mock draft. The Suns are one team that could potentially look for depth at the center spot, adding much needed rim protection and finishing ability as Alex Len enters free agency.
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Re: NBA Draft and NCAA Basketball 

Post#1651 » by jcsunsfan » Tue Feb 20, 2018 4:48 pm

Hmmm. With Young dropping back, to say #7. Let's just run a dream scenario. We get the #1 pick. Take Ayton. Then cash in the the Miami pick, the Milwakee pick, and maybe Warren or next year's #1 Suns pick and trade up to #7 and take Young. I think a team may take that rather than drafting Young who looks like big risk big reward to some teams.
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Re: NBA Draft and NCAA Basketball 

Post#1652 » by Bogyo » Tue Feb 20, 2018 5:47 pm

jcsunsfan wrote:Hmmm. With Young dropping back, to say #7. Let's just run a dream scenario. We get the #1 pick. Take Ayton. Then cash in the the Miami pick, the Milwakee pick, and maybe Warren or next year's #1 Suns pick and trade up to #7 and take Young. I think a team may take that rather than drafting Young who looks like big risk big reward to some teams.


There is a slight chance of this happening, depending on who is at the 7th spot.
I'd think Memphis/Chicago/Cleveland/NY all would take a long, hard look at some combination of all those picks plus Warren or Chriss for the 7th spot.
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Re: NBA Draft and NCAA Basketball 

Post#1653 » by NavLDO » Tue Feb 20, 2018 5:57 pm

1UPZ wrote:What's Bagley's position in the NBA?


He's got the same measurements as Chriss but without the athleticism. So rim protection would suffer... And rebounding?

He's got narrow shoulders and bulking up would hurt his game style. So I see similar contribution as Randle? Unless he can become a true stretch mid range like Bosh


But with ohh-so-much-more talent, better attitude, and higher IQ. Bagley is just so much more plug-n-play than Chriss as well.

Overall, though, Bagley likely needs to be a PF. That said, seeing some minutes at the 5 like Chriss does, or Warren does the 4, wouldn't kill a team. It's not like 7'1" Wingspan on a 6'11" body... narrow shoulders or not, is not as bad as 5'10" at PG.

I get the sense that Bagley is the kind of guy that's going to make some teams regret passing on him. Maybe not. Maybe everyone picked ahead of him will pan out.
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Re: NBA Draft and NCAA Basketball 

Post#1654 » by NavLDO » Tue Feb 20, 2018 6:27 pm

Saberestar wrote:
m1chal wrote:I'm not a college ball expert but assuming Payton continues to play well and ends the season on a high note why would we even look at any PG except perhaps Doncic given holes we have at frontcourt positions? I understand Young has shooting, playmaking and ballhandling skills but I also read there are doubts about his size and defense. I'm not sure we can put a poor defender next to Booker. Doncic or a skilled big man please, McD.

Can Payton and Booker play 48 minutes per game during 82 games + (hopefully) playoffs?

Payton is big enough to play some minutes next to Trae.

Yeah, we need more good talented players on this roster.

I do not care about Ulis, Reed, Knight, House, Canaan, Daniels and Gray. A couple of them can be on the team to complete the roster next season, but we can not relay on them at all.


Yeah, I understand his point...why would we invest a Lottery pick on a PG like Young, so long as we have Payton, I believe is what he's wondering. I agree with his sentiment, but we technically can use an upgrade anywhere but at the 2 or 3 (considering JJ and Warren).

But certainly, any one of the PGs from the Miami 1st range to the late 2nd would be a wise investment.
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Re: NBA Draft and NCAA Basketball 

Post#1655 » by Blonde » Tue Feb 20, 2018 6:31 pm

Right now we must take BPA. Elfrid Payton cannot factor into our decision. I like Elfrid a lot and would feel comfortable with him being our starter going into next season and possibly improving a lot, but he has some serious limitations that should not forclose us from drafting another guard. I question whether he can be effective in a playoff series when he shoots free throws poorly and doesn't space the floor well.

Having Elfrid around would be to the benefit of Doncic or Young, and he could easily share the floor with either of those guys. If we have an overqualified backup point guard, that is not the worst situation to be in.

Now looking at Trae Young, his numbers have dipped a lot recently. I like his fit significantly more now that we have Elfrid on the team though. I imagine Young will look a lot better when he suddenly becomes the second best offensive option on his team and doesn't have to pull up off screens before the double team closes in on him. I think Young will be fine in the NBA, but if we want to start him and Booker together down the line, we better have a defensive stalwart to back them both up.

I'm still out on Jackson Jr. I won't be surprised if he becomes an elite defensive player one day who can spread the floor well, but don't see that happening here. I can't see a player of his archetype flourishing here, especially after our power forward experiment of the last 2 years. He has many of the same flaws as Chriss: poor rebounder, fouls often, limited individual offensive creation. Not that I'm factoring in fit with Chriss, I just think there are more worthy options in the top 5. He's more in the 6-9 range to me, and there are 2 or maybe 3 bigs who I'd rather have: Ayton, Bagley, and potentially Carter.
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Re: NBA Draft and NCAA Basketball 

Post#1656 » by ATTL » Tue Feb 20, 2018 6:44 pm

jcsunsfan wrote:Hmmm. With Young dropping back, to say #7. Let's just run a dream scenario. We get the #1 pick. Take Ayton. Then cash in the the Miami pick, the Milwakee pick, and maybe Warren or next year's #1 Suns pick and trade up to #7 and take Young. I think a team may take that rather than drafting Young who looks like big risk big reward to some teams.


Thats what I've been hoping for too, its a long shot but still a possibility. It might be more likely one of the top bigs drop.
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Re: NBA Draft and NCAA Basketball 

Post#1657 » by ImNotMcDiSwear » Tue Feb 20, 2018 6:50 pm

ATTL wrote:
jcsunsfan wrote:Hmmm. With Young dropping back, to say #7. Let's just run a dream scenario. We get the #1 pick. Take Ayton. Then cash in the the Miami pick, the Milwakee pick, and maybe Warren or next year's #1 Suns pick and trade up to #7 and take Young. I think a team may take that rather than drafting Young who looks like big risk big reward to some teams.


Thats what I've been hoping for too, its a long shot but still a possibility. It might be more likely one of the top bigs drop.


With so many promising bigs expected to be available in the range of the MIA pick, I could see McD having Trae Young higher on his board than most would expect. Maybe even as high as #2.
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Re: NBA Draft and NCAA Basketball 

Post#1658 » by Saberestar » Tue Feb 20, 2018 7:06 pm

1UPZ wrote:
In2ition wrote:
1UPZ wrote:What's Bagley's position in the NBA?


He's got the same measurements as Chriss but without the athleticism. So rim protection would suffer... And rebounding?

He's got narrow shoulders and bulking up would hurt his game style. So I see similar contribution as Randle? Unless he can become a true stretch mid range like Bosh

This is nuts. Same measurements as Chriss? Bagley would eat Chriss's lunch tomorrow, despite playing less years in hs and being 2 years younger. He's an inch taller and is more athletic than Chriss, and a far superior rebounder without fouling out or getting techs. He's 2 inches taller than Randle and a far superior prospect too.




Bagley is listed as 6'10 With 7'0 wingspan and 8'10 standing reach or maybe 8'11.

Chriss is 6'9 With 7'0 wingspan or shorter... But similar 8'10~8'11 standing reach.

Didn't say anything about his performance but a question on his position in the NBA...because he seems lacking length to be a rim protector.... No doubt he has talent as I envision something similar to Chris Noah. But it's not nuts when it's factual that he's got similar measurements as Chriss.

The big difference is basketball IQ and motor. It is not even close. Bagley is a basketball player and Chriss is an athlete.
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Re: NBA Draft and NCAA Basketball 

Post#1659 » by bwgood77 » Tue Feb 20, 2018 7:17 pm

kennydorglas wrote:Trae still has .579 TS% 24.2 PER and +6.6 NetRtg against .500+ opp
I dont think he's bad as he's playing now, same with being that crazy **** who started the season on fuego.
It's probably something in the middle and i'm very cool with it.

shooting/playmaking/shifty ballhandling is a HELL of combo.


If you watch the past few games, he is absolutely smothered by defenders as well and rarely gets any open shots. He'd get a lot more in the NBA. But yeah, he was playing insane basketball and now is playing the opposite and the truth lies somewhere in between. Players have ups and downs. He played well against some very good teams early, and some teams more the caliber of the ones Steph Curry played in college at Davidson.
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Re: NBA Draft and NCAA Basketball 

Post#1660 » by bwgood77 » Tue Feb 20, 2018 7:19 pm

Saberestar wrote:
m1chal wrote:I'm not a college ball expert but assuming Payton continues to play well and ends the season on a high note why would we even look at any PG except perhaps Doncic given holes we have at frontcourt positions? I understand Young has shooting, playmaking and ballhandling skills but I also read there are doubts about his size and defense. I'm not sure we can put a poor defender next to Booker. Doncic or a skilled big man please, McD.

Can Payton and Booker play 48 minutes per game during 82 games + (hopefully) playoffs?

Payton is big enough to play some minutes next to Trae.

Yeah, we need more good talented players on this roster.

I do not care about Ulis, Reed, Knight, House, Canaan, Daniels and Gray. A couple of them can be on the team to complete the roster next season, but we can not relay on them at all.


It also depends on where we are picking, how good we want our starting PG to be and what type of skills we want from him.

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