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NBA Draft and NCAA Basketball

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Who would you take at 3 if Ayton/Doncic gone?

Bamba
9
13%
Bagley
11
16%
Jackson
9
13%
Porter
25
36%
Young
16
23%
 
Total votes: 70

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Re: NBA Draft and NCAA Basketball 

Post#1681 » by kennydorglas » Wed Feb 21, 2018 3:00 am

bwgood77 wrote:
kennydorglas wrote:
bwgood77 wrote:
Why the two ratings for Bagley and Bridges? And Carter, Williams and some others.


because they can play multiple positions.
I added another column to keep it simple.


So Bagley slightly better as a C in college than Young as a PG, but clearly worse as a PF. And Bamba slightly better.

But then Mikal Bridges looks by far the best prospect from a production standpoint in college...far better as a SG, but still up there with the others at SF.

Interesting that only 5 scores of the top 10 prospects or so not only register 50 or higher, but nobody else even registers as high as 40. And 2 of the 5 scores 50+ are Mikal Bridges.

But it gets back to the question, since Bagley's good score was playing C, does that translate to the pro level?


It's not him playing at the 5... but his stats compared with 18yo C.
I'm kinda skeptical of Bagley playing meaningful minutes at the 5, but he should be a small ball terror if he can hold his ground just enough. Super effective and skilled.
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Re: NBA Draft and NCAA Basketball 

Post#1682 » by AtheJ415 » Wed Feb 21, 2018 5:35 am

LV-Suns wrote:
AtheJ415 wrote:
1UPZ wrote:I'm bitter with Chriss because I like Bogdanovic and seeing him play well is a kick in the nuts... Especially when Chriss pouts and play dumb and lazy


Bogdan is 5 years older and making $9.5 mil per year. I'd argue it's debatable if he is even worth his contract, and the upside gap is not comparable. And I say that as someone who also likes Bogdan. Once he declined to come on a rookie deal his value went out the window.

Well, we pay Dudley 10 mil a year.


I'm not a fan of that either. But having 1 bad contract doesn't make another somehow better. The one thing I really dislike about the FO moves aside from the Knight trade is going with Dudley and Tyson on long-term deals instead of a vet on a slightly above minimum type deal or at least a 1-2 year deal (like a Vince Carter), similar to what Elton Brand was for Philly a few years ago.
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Re: NBA Draft and NCAA Basketball 

Post#1683 » by Sunzgunz » Wed Feb 21, 2018 7:27 am

The allure/obsession with moving up in this draft is obviously the value. Theres a chance the 7th pick in this draft, would have been number 1 in last years draft, which was.a deep draft in its own right. I realise it will demand more in return than your usual #7 pick, but still no where near what the #1 pick would demand, even though it stands a decent chance of being the best pick in the draft

Funny thing, i have OCDD, Over Compulsive Draft Disorsder, i check them all day, every day and theres am interesting new trend developing. When the season began, i mentioned that acquiring a late single digit pick would be ideal as Porter, a preinjury #1 projection would slip. His went from 1 to 4 after the injury, but my guess was that a few live bodies with an actuall college resume would surpass him (Bamba, Jackson and Young may have), someone with a great march madness performance my leap frog in front of Porter (not applicable as of yet), as well as a guy who catches fire during predraft workouts (again, not applicable as of yet). My guess was that Porter could possibly go 6-10 ...i was told the idea was absurd and impossible, even given links to prove it was insane :) In all reality, it may not happen, Porter may go 4 or sooner, but...

For a month and a half, the first 7 draftees were predictable, it was just their order that varied quite a bit. Then, there was a recent two week period were Young and Porter seem to domimate that 6 and 7 spot, with an occassional JJJ and/or Bagley sighting there as well.

However, for the past week, ive actually seen a new trend where Mr. Wendal has broken the top 7 on a few occasions, as has Bridges on a few other occasions. Im yet to see them both break top 7 simultaneously, how cool would that be, 2 of the following: JJJ/Porter/Bamba/Young going 8 and 9 at the very least.

However, in areas where Carter or Bridges have broken the top 7, ive seen JJJ, Bamba and Porter all go at #8 or even higher. One mock had the Knicks taking Bamba at 8 because he was the best remaining talent, but said dont be surprised if they opted with a wing and/or traded out. Another said the exact same thing but in regards to the bulls taking Porter at that 8 spot.

Ive seen JJJ recently go 8, 9, 10 and 11 whereas Trae Young has gone 9 and 11. Insane!

I still think Heat gives us the 12 pick, if JJJ or Young were there, HIGHLY doubt it, but if theyre available at the 11 spot and we cant find away to move up one??? ...speechless just thinking about it

But, the cool what if scenarios:

Where JJJ went at 11, they had phoenix taking Bamba at the 5 spot and they had Sexton at 15 ( if we got lucky with the bucks pick) . Defensively; Bamba, JJJ, Josh Jackson and Sexton or Payton would be treacherous!

The scenario where Young was at 11, they actually had us taking Porter with our pick, we find a way to use Heats 12 pick to move up one and get Young....the shooting/space that Porter, Booker and Young would cover would truly rival the splash brothers in just a couple seasons.

The most intriguing scenario with us standing pat, the draft had phoenix taking (and the spots they 'May' have)

1st - Ayton (Suns)
12th - Wendell Carter (clips, but could be heats)
15th - Sexton (Suns from heat, if it were the bucks)

Bucks giving us the 15th is a stretch, but again, if were 16 from the bucks and sexton is there at 15, we better find a way to pull this off...i like payton, but id like a payton/sexton combo better for noelw.
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Re: NBA Draft and NCAA Basketball 

Post#1684 » by thamadkant » Wed Feb 21, 2018 10:27 am

Suns going into 2018-2019 season with 3-5 more rookies would be terrible, it'll be more 30 point plus losses.... Booker wont be happy with that.

i would consolidate and move up.... but if Suns get Pick 1, I would trade those 2 late lotteries (if so) for veterans... package a player or 2 with them and get legit help for Booker, Warren/Jackson and the rest.
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Re: NBA Draft and NCAA Basketball 

Post#1685 » by NavLDO » Wed Feb 21, 2018 11:29 am

Blonde wrote:
NavLDO wrote:With Jackson, though, there is more to like in different areas. just look at this comparison of Bagley, Carter, Jackson, and Chriss:

http://www.tankathon.com/players/compare?players=marvin-bagley--wendell-carter--jaren-jackson-jr--marquese-chriss

Notice how Chriss has the "Red Dot" next to his numbers, like, 5x more than anyone else? Jackson appears to be more accomplished from 3, FT%, and Blocks, and Chriss has actually been pretty active in the Blks department, so if Jackson follows suit...


Don’t get me wrong, I’d swap Jackson for Chriss in a second a call it a huge upgrade. Helpful comparison tool though. I’d just call out the fact that projecting per36 numbers when a player can’t stay out of foul trouble enough to stay on the court more than 22 minutes is a bit dubious. But this comparison shows the quality of prospects between the ‘16 draft class and this year.

As for Carter, yeah I love him too. I think we’d be looking at him a lot different if Bagley hadn’t reclassified at the last minute to play at Duke with him.

I don’t think we’d be looking at trading down from a top 3 pick either. In fact I think we will be trying to do the opposite and consolidate assets to try to move up. We’ll already likely bring in 3 rookies next year (our first, our second, miami first). No need or room to make it 4 or 5.


I agree. Just another wild scenario I dreamt of in order to get rid of BK and his horrendous contract. Watch--he'll come out guns-a-blazin' next season--efficiently--and make me eat my words... :lol:

Regarding consolidation, absolutely. I agree wholeheartedly, which is why I'm really hoping Miami misses the playoffs and enters the Lottery (but doesn't win it, of course). If we could package the remaining 2nds that aren't ours (Milwaukee's, so long as they finish 48th or better) and Toronto's, and Milwaukee's 2019/2020 1st...OR...the Bucks 'fumble' and we get their 1st this year, and not their 2nd, and we have the Bucks'/Heat's 2018 1st, both in the teens, to move up to 10th or so--and get this--the Cavs own the Net's pick, who are 'surging', and may end up 10th, the Cav's need to rebuild, even after their trade, with cheap talent--I would LOVE a scenario where we trade (all prognosticated numbers here)...

...the 15th (Bucks) + 18th (Heat) + 32nd (Suns 2nd) + (and if they need further incentive, the below trade) for the 10th overall, and we select, assuming 3rd (I like 3rd, since that is as high as I think the balls will ever bounce in our favor):

http://www.espn.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=yd9d3mde

3rd: Marvin Bagley
10th: Wendell Carter Jr.
57th: The best left of Aaron Holiday, Jevon Carter, Devonte Graham, Jalen Brunson, Shake Milton, Kerwin Roach, or Tra Holder

https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/wendell-carterjr-1/gamelog/2018#20180113-20180218-sum:gamelog

Heck, Bagley and Carter have played well together, right? Why break that up?

Elfrid / Booker / JJ / Bagley / Carter

While rotating in serious minutes to Warren, Bender, Chriss, and BK, I guess (ugh...), plus, getting our new 2nd Rd PG into the mix as much as possible, and if Reed is GTG as well. Who needs FA at that point?
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Re: NBA Draft and NCAA Basketball 

Post#1686 » by Mulhollanddrive » Wed Feb 21, 2018 11:53 am

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Re: NBA Draft and NCAA Basketball 

Post#1687 » by bwgood77 » Wed Feb 21, 2018 4:40 pm

NavLDO wrote:Heck, Bagley and Carter have played well together, right? Why break that up?

Elfrid / Booker / JJ / Bagley / Carter

While rotating in serious minutes to Warren, Bender, Chriss, and BK, I guess (ugh...), plus, getting our new 2nd Rd PG into the mix as much as possible, and if Reed is GTG as well. Who needs FA at that point?


Duke plays better on D when they break it up...from the article just posted...

Duke has been far better on defense without its star big man
By Ben Leonard | 02/20/2018

Marvin Bagley III is a truly special talent—on offense. But as it has shown recently, Duke is better served without him on defense.
In their last three games, the Blue Devils have been locked in on defense in a way few thought would be possible. Certainly, its offense has taken a hit, but overall, Duke has netted nearly four points per game better without him in conference play. After downing Virginia Tech and Clemson, the Blue Devils have held two straight conference opponents to fewer than 60 points for the first time since 2015.

Bagley is worse than frontcourt mates Wendell Carter Jr. and Javin DeLaurier in defensive rating, and he has looked overmatched defensively for much of the year. Although he is a transcendent offensive talent, he hasn’t been able to protect the rim for much of the season. He has a putrid 3.2 percent block rate—that’s five times worse than the national leader.

And though Bagley has strong post moves on offense, he hasn’t been able to translate that to the defensive end of the floor. He has struggled in particular when he plays against someone his own size—take Wake Forest’s Doral Moore, for example. The 7-foot-1 Demon Deacon center embarrassed Bagley, throwing down dunk after dunk and scoring 14 points in the first half. Krzyzewski says the only way Duke could guard him was fouling him, a strategy that eventually worked, but not without a cost—Bagley got into foul trouble and DeLaurier fouled out after just 12 minutes.
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Re: NBA Draft and NCAA Basketball 

Post#1688 » by WeekapaugGroove » Wed Feb 21, 2018 4:56 pm

Sheesh. That article is why bagley scares the hell out of me.
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Re: NBA Draft and NCAA Basketball 

Post#1689 » by bwgood77 » Wed Feb 21, 2018 5:00 pm

WeekapaugGroove wrote:Sheesh. That article is why bagley scares the hell out of me.


Yeah, as bad as our defense is, the one way to improve it fast is with a defensive big, but you throw a big that can't defend, it only compounds things. I mean, even Jackson, our defensive minded rookie, ranks 37th in DRTG among rookies... https://basketball.realgm.com/nba/stats/2018/Advanced_Stats/Qualified/drtg/All/asc/1/Regular_Season?rookies= A few of those guys don't play much though.
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Re: NBA Draft and NCAA Basketball 

Post#1690 » by JMac1 » Wed Feb 21, 2018 5:28 pm

1UPZ wrote:Suns going into 2018-2019 season with 3-5 more rookies would be terrible, it'll be more 30 point plus losses.... Booker wont be happy with that.

i would consolidate and move up.... but if Suns get Pick 1, I would trade those 2 late lotteries (if so) for veterans... package a player or 2 with them and get legit help for Booker, Warren/Jackson and the rest.


As for the poll. I picked JJJ, because I have no knowledge of Porter’s play. Also, if we add a vet, I’m looking/hoping/praying that guy and Booker and JJ will be the studs.
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Re: NBA Draft and NCAA Basketball 

Post#1691 » by kennydorglas » Wed Feb 21, 2018 6:00 pm

bwgood77 wrote:
NavLDO wrote:Heck, Bagley and Carter have played well together, right? Why break that up?

Elfrid / Booker / JJ / Bagley / Carter

While rotating in serious minutes to Warren, Bender, Chriss, and BK, I guess (ugh...), plus, getting our new 2nd Rd PG into the mix as much as possible, and if Reed is GTG as well. Who needs FA at that point?


Duke plays better on D when they break it up...from the article just posted...

Duke has been far better on defense without its star big man
By Ben Leonard | 02/20/2018

Marvin Bagley III is a truly special talent—on offense. But as it has shown recently, Duke is better served without him on defense.
In their last three games, the Blue Devils have been locked in on defense in a way few thought would be possible. Certainly, its offense has taken a hit, but overall, Duke has netted nearly four points per game better without him in conference play. After downing Virginia Tech and Clemson, the Blue Devils have held two straight conference opponents to fewer than 60 points for the first time since 2015.

Bagley is worse than frontcourt mates Wendell Carter Jr. and Javin DeLaurier in defensive rating, and he has looked overmatched defensively for much of the year. Although he is a transcendent offensive talent, he hasn’t been able to protect the rim for much of the season. He has a putrid 3.2 percent block rate—that’s five times worse than the national leader.

And though Bagley has strong post moves on offense, he hasn’t been able to translate that to the defensive end of the floor. He has struggled in particular when he plays against someone his own size—take Wake Forest’s Doral Moore, for example. The 7-foot-1 Demon Deacon center embarrassed Bagley, throwing down dunk after dunk and scoring 14 points in the first half. Krzyzewski says the only way Duke could guard him was fouling him, a strategy that eventually worked, but not without a cost—Bagley got into foul trouble and DeLaurier fouled out after just 12 minutes.


Coach K finally is using full-time zone defense now. That's why their defense is improved.
They have bad defenders all over the court... let's see when Bagley is back if they really will stumble again.
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Re: NBA Draft and NCAA Basketball 

Post#1692 » by Sunzgunz » Wed Feb 21, 2018 6:25 pm

1UPZ wrote:Suns going into 2018-2019 season with 3-5 more rookies would be terrible, it'll be more 30 point plus losses.... Booker wont be happy with that.

i would consolidate and move up.... but if Suns get Pick 1, I would trade those 2 late lotteries (if so) for veterans... package a player or 2 with them and get legit help for Booker, Warren/Jackson and the rest.


Im with you, i would love to package and trade up to that 7 spot. My dream scenario is Ayton and Porter falls to us at 7, but i wouldnt lose any sleep if JJJ, Bamba or Young fall to us at that spot.

I think our big off season splash will be an attenpt to sign aaron gordon....im cool with that for the right price!

A 2, 3, 4, 5, consisting of booker, porter, gordon and Ayton would be impressive! ...with a solid young bench.
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Re: NBA Draft and NCAA Basketball 

Post#1693 » by Wilber85 » Wed Feb 21, 2018 6:51 pm

How did the dude with a back injury who is not playing become #1 on the poll?

I am confused.

I would take Bagley, Ayton, Doncic, Young, Jackson all over Porter.
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Re: NBA Draft and NCAA Basketball 

Post#1694 » by bwgood77 » Wed Feb 21, 2018 6:56 pm

Sunzgunz wrote:
1UPZ wrote:Suns going into 2018-2019 season with 3-5 more rookies would be terrible, it'll be more 30 point plus losses.... Booker wont be happy with that.

i would consolidate and move up.... but if Suns get Pick 1, I would trade those 2 late lotteries (if so) for veterans... package a player or 2 with them and get legit help for Booker, Warren/Jackson and the rest.


Im with you, i would love to package and trade up to that 7 spot. My dream scenario is Ayton and Porter falls to us at 7, but i wouldnt lose any sleep if JJJ, Bamba or Young fall to us at that spot.

I think our big off season splash will be an attenpt to sign aaron gordon....im cool with that for the right price!

A 2, 3, 4, 5, consisting of booker, porter, gordon and Ayton would be impressive! ...with a solid young bench.


My dream scenario is that we win the lottery and we can trade the Miami pick and Ulis/Reed for #2.
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Re: NBA Draft and NCAA Basketball 

Post#1695 » by Sunzgunz » Wed Feb 21, 2018 7:14 pm

bwgood77 wrote:
Sunzgunz wrote:
1UPZ wrote:Suns going into 2018-2019 season with 3-5 more rookies would be terrible, it'll be more 30 point plus losses.... Booker wont be happy with that.

i would consolidate and move up.... but if Suns get Pick 1, I would trade those 2 late lotteries (if so) for veterans... package a player or 2 with them and get legit help for Booker, Warren/Jackson and the rest.


Im with you, i would love to package and trade up to that 7 spot. My dream scenario is Ayton and Porter falls to us at 7, but i wouldnt lose any sleep if JJJ, Bamba or Young fall to us at that spot.

I think our big off season splash will be an attenpt to sign aaron gordon....im cool with that for the right price!

A 2, 3, 4, 5, consisting of booker, porter, gordon and Ayton would be impressive! ...with a solid young bench.


My dream scenario is that we win the lottery and we can trade the Miami pick and Ulis/Reed for #2.
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Re: NBA Draft and NCAA Basketball 

Post#1696 » by jcsunsfan » Wed Feb 21, 2018 7:30 pm

WeekapaugGroove wrote:Sheesh. That article is why bagley scares the hell out of me.


Choosing between Bagley and Carter reminds me of trying to choose between Brook Lopez and Robin Lopez--kinda.
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Re: NBA Draft and NCAA Basketball 

Post#1697 » by Sunzgunz » Wed Feb 21, 2018 7:41 pm

Sunzgunz wrote:
bwgood77 wrote:
Sunzgunz wrote:
Im with you, i would love to package and trade up to that 7 spot. My dream scenario is Ayton and Porter falls to us at 7, but i wouldnt lose any sleep if JJJ, Bamba or Young fall to us at that spot.

I think our big off season splash will be an attenpt to sign aaron gordon....im cool with that for the right price!

A 2, 3, 4, 5, consisting of booker, porter, gordon and Ayton would be impressive! ...with a solid young bench.


My dream scenario is that we win the lottery and we can trade the Miami pick and Ulis/Reed for #2.


Well that's just silly! :crazy:

:)

:beer: to dreaming!


For the record, Willis Reed doesnt play anymore and the Heat Pick will most likely be in the late teens! ...so ive been told :)
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Re: NBA Draft and NCAA Basketball 

Post#1698 » by bwgood77 » Wed Feb 21, 2018 8:44 pm

Sunzgunz wrote:
Sunzgunz wrote:
bwgood77 wrote:
My dream scenario is that we win the lottery and we can trade the Miami pick and Ulis/Reed for #2.


Well that's just silly! :crazy:

:)

:beer: to dreaming!


For the record, Willis Reed doesnt play anymore and the Heat Pick will most likely be in the late teens! ...so ive been told :)


I was just joining in throwing out unrealistic possibilities.
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Re: NBA Draft and NCAA Basketball 

Post#1699 » by Sunzgunz » Wed Feb 21, 2018 9:24 pm

bwgood77 wrote:
Sunzgunz wrote:
Sunzgunz wrote:
Well that's just silly! :crazy:

:)

:beer: to dreaming!


For the record, Willis Reed doesnt play anymore and the Heat Pick will most likely be in the late teens! ...so ive been told :)


I was just joining in throwing out unrealistic possibilities.


Like when you told me there was no chance Porter falls past 4 towards the beginning of the season?

When you told me the heat would not finish between 12-14....late teens and offered a link as if were proof? Lmao!

Or the bucks would be in the mid 20s?

Now, you might be right on all of them, but believe it or not, you might be wrong on all of them!

So will the Heat pick will be 18 or 19? I said 12-14, which is unrealistic in your view.

Quite the conundrum, do you hope for the Suns sake that i am right, and you can reconcile your narcissism at a later date. Or does being right, even if it hurts the Suns, vindicate your self perception?

I would take the easy way out, even if you dont mean it, by saying, I hope your right for the Suns sake, but I doubt it. Its a much softer stance and gives you just enough wiggle room to climb out of any whole you dig.

:)
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Re: NBA Draft and NCAA Basketball 

Post#1700 » by bwgood77 » Wed Feb 21, 2018 9:56 pm

Sunzgunz wrote:
bwgood77 wrote:
Sunzgunz wrote:
For the record, Willis Reed doesnt play anymore and the Heat Pick will most likely be in the late teens! ...so ive been told :)


I was just joining in throwing out unrealistic possibilities.


Like when you told me there was no chance Porter falls past 4 towards the beginning of the season?

When you told me the heat would not finish between 12-14....late teens and offered a link as if were proof? Lmao!

Or the bucks would be in the mid 20s?

Now, you might be right on all of them, but believe it or not, you might be wrong on all of them!

So will the Heat pick will be 18 or 19? I said 12-14, which is unrealistic in your view.

:)


I was just joking, but like I said, I don't see anyone in this bottom 7 trading out of it. I do think it's possible to trade up, but probably not send a minor package to move up to a player that is being viewed by the masses as a "game changer".

As for the Heat pick, anything can happen, they could even get lucky and win a top 3 pick and it doesn't convey at all. I do hope it lands between 12 and 14. I did think it would end in the mid teens and will be happy to be wrong. With the Clips and Jazz playing as well as they have, if the Heat continue not playing as well.

I don't recall thinking the Bucks pick would be in the mid 20s..just that there was very little chance that it conveys since it has to be 16 at worst....I still feel that way barring a big injury to Giannis as well.

I don't recall saying anything about Porter either. I definitely wouldn't have expected him to fall past 4 before his injury and Bagley reclassified though, so you're probably right there.

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