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With McD getting his extension, building through the draft, and now having three years to see this thing through, with a couple of first rounders next year, including our own which should be fairly high, we are set to see slow improvement and some exciting development of our young players, while adding the finishing touches to the core next summer.

However, if we once again, try to speed up this timeline, by trading more than just Bledsoe and a vet and maybe the 18 Heat pick to trade for a player used to playing in the finals, and once hitting a game winning shot, to join a team that will be on the outside looking in the two years he is here, he will almost assuredly decide he'd rather play elsewhere to give him that more immediate chance to win.

His style of play is also likely to be a big deterrent to his teammates, as they watch him dribble the ball for much of the shot clock and launch up 25 shots a game. Now, they already see that to an extent with Booker, but he has been a part of the core before all of the core additions outside of TJ (who I call part of the core since McD has mentioned him specifically and another time mentioned the age range of our core players is 19-23).

I also fear with his style of play it will impede the development of the younger players to some extent. It works with LeBron because LeBron gets his teammates going and Kyrie can take over when needed. Kyrie is great as sidekick to a superstar. I don't believe he can carry a team as THE superstar.

We might be a bit better with Kyrie, but not good enough to crack the top 9 or so in the west at this time, and likely not good enough to please Kyrie. So with him leaving in a couple of years, our young guys not developing as well as they could, and our draft picks (if we have any) likely being just outside of the blue chip prospects, we would once again be back at square one, having depleted our assets to acquire Kyrie, only to watch him walk out the door.

It honestly wouldn't surprise me if he asked for a trade prior to becoming a free agent, since he was traded to a team not on his list and a team that is far too young to be competitive.

If we steer clear of the trade, and our team slowly gets better and more confident playing together with this tight knit group, I believe we can gradually move toward a very tough team that loves playing together, has great skill sets, versatility, etc, and a top tier free agent would then possibly look at the Suns as a place they'd really like to play with, to take us to that next level.

But if we trade for Kyrie and he walks out that door in two years, I see there is very little chance McDonough sticks around much longer, and that if he stays the course, the future is certainly brighter long term.

Forget his gaudy per-game stats and highlight-reel plays from the NBA Finals. There are numbers that should really concern any team that trades for him. The Cavs were minus-120 in 635 minutes with Kyrie on and LeBron off last season, and nearly half of those minutes (312) came with Kevin Love. Tyronn Lue could hardly afford to take LeBron off the floor in the playoffs: Their net rating plummeted from plus-13.6 with him to minus-13.8 without him. The Cavs had three All-Stars, yet were as close to a one-man team as they could be. Kyrie ranked 40th in assist percentage and 71st in defensive RPM among NBA point guards, and if he couldn’t be bothered to play defense or share the ball when he was contending for a title, what is he going to do on a team that will struggle to crack .500? No matter how many points a backcourt of Kyrie and Booker score, they might give up just as many on the other end of the floor.

So much of what he's been able to accomplish on and off the floor has been as the beneficiary of LeBron James. That would be alarming to me if I was a team looking to get him.

"You're getting everything you want. You're getting all the shots you want, you're playing for a great coach, when the game is on the line they're coming to you, you're playing on national TV every week. To me, I don't get it. Everybody has their own desires. Maybe he wants to be Russell Westbrook and go try to win the MVP and get all the shots. That's the only thing sense I can make of it and to me that doesn't make sense"

http://www.sportingnews.com/nba/news/kyrie-irving-nba-trade-rumors-cleveland-cavaliers-news-chauncey-billups/pi2li6wzyxhv1vyukmimz7ne2





Bigger Isaiah Thomas pretty much. He'll make himself look good but nobody else. Lacking as a passer, a huge detriment to a team as a defender. I'll take a hard pass, especially since he can walk in 2 years.


If McDonough pulls the trigger and gives up substantial assets such as JJ, I think he'll live to regret it and definitely be looking for a new job around 2020.

First of all, I think every other team will be just as scared. Maybe, I've been thinking, New York can do Melo and Frank straight up for Kyrie. That's still possible, especially with the Derrick Rose addition. That said, I think even New York should be nervous about Kyrie leaving.

Because I think every other team will be scared, Bledsoe and Warren might just be the best offer they get. I'd bet a small amount of money on it.

Even if Kyrie leaves after two years, we haven't given up Booker or Jackson. We're in the same spot as now, only we had a shot at someone who is potentially superstar material. (Not sure he's a superstar either, but he's as good a bet as anyone in the league).

That all being said, it could very well cost McD his job. I love McD and don't want to see him go. That said, he has taken risks like this in the past (Knight) and might see the upside of a deal like this as long as it doesn't include Jackson.

The way I see it, it's up to McD and Sarver, although Sarver's intentions are a lot clearer to me. If McD wants to do this, it's on him.

I understand the risk, but I worry we can't find a better point guard than Kyrie, even through the draft. I think it's worth the risk, even if it means losing McD.

AS LONG AS JACKSON ISN'T INVOLVED, do it.

Would rather facilitate Kyrie to Sac and get Fox if at all possible.

ginobiliflops wrote:Would rather facilitate Kyrie to Sac and get Fox if at all possible.

Oh....most definitely. Fox, Booker, Jackson and Chriss/Bender as your future core. That would be a lot of fun.

ginobiliflops wrote:Would rather facilitate Kyrie to Sac and get Fox if at all possible.

Kyrie staying in Sacramento? Worst bet in the NBA.

bwgood77 wrote:With McD getting his extension, building through the draft, and now having three years to see this thing through, with a couple of first rounders next year, including our own which should be fairly high, we are set to see slow improvement and some exciting development of our young players, while adding the finishing touches to the core next summer.

However, if we once again, try to speed up this timeline, by trading significant assets (which is what it would take) to trade for a player used to playing in the finals, and once hitting a game winning shot, to join a team that will be on the outside looking in the two years he is here, he will almost assuredly decide he'd rather play elsewhere to give him that more immediate chance to win.

His style of play is also likely to be a big deterrent to his teammates, as they watch him dribble the ball for much of the shot clock and launch up 25 shots a game. Now, they already see that to an extent with Booker, but he has been a part of the core before all of the core additions outside of TJ (who I call part of the core since McD has mention him specifically and an age range of players in our core stretching to the age of 23 at another time.)

I also fear with his style of play it will impede the development of the younger players to some extent. It works with LeBron because LeBron gets his teammates going and Kyrie can take over when needed. Kyrie is great as sidekick to a superstar. I don't believe he can carry a team as THE superstar.

We might be a bit better with Kyrie, but not good enough to crack the top 9 or so in the west at this time, and likely not good enough to please Kyrie. So with him leaving in a couple of years, our young guys not developing as well as they could, and our draft picks (if we have any) likely being just outside of the blue chip prospects, we would once again be back at square one, having depleted our assets to acquire Kyrie, only to watch him walk out the door.

It honestly wouldn't surprise me if he asked for a trade prior to becoming a free agent, since he was traded to a team not on his list and a team that is far too young to be competitive.

If our team slowly gets better and more confident playing together with this tight knit group, I believe we can gradually move toward a very tough team that loves playing together, has great skill sets, versatility, etc, and a top tier free agent would then possibly look at the Suns as a place they'd really like to play with, to take us to that next level.

But if we trade for Kyrie and he walks out that door in two years, I see there is very little chance McDonough sticks around much longer, and that if he stays the course, the future is certainly brighter long term.

Wow

You sound like my rant against Watson. Quite frankly Watson is one of my big issues as well, if we do acquire Kyrie. Is Watson capable of making him part of a team that shares the ball and plays defense?

However, I remain consistent in my belief.

I we can obtain him without including either Booker or Jackson, just do it. I really do not care what draft picks we give up to make it happen. We really do not know who those picks will actually be. We just think we know. We do know that we love Booker and Jackson. We do know that if would be nice to add a superstar sometime in the process. Kyrie surely could be that guy. If he isn't then we move on in a couple of years.

I've seen all the Warren talk in the trade thread, but given how unrealistic that offer is, that's not worth discussing any further. We know that 60% would include him and really want to and think that will fly with Cleveland and 40% don't want to include him. That's been beaten to death, so I think we've exhausted the discussion on that, though I wouldn't do it anyway, because I'm not a fan of Irving's game as a lead guy.

If I'm the Cavs, Irving is perfect for the team because LeBron gets the other guys going and Irving is that ISO scorer when you need it. If I'm afraid LeBron is leaving next season I demand a package that includes pieces to build around for the future and piece to help going forward.

So if I'm talking to the Suns and Booker is off the table I go for Bledsoe, Dudley and Jackson. I'd try to get a pick, as it sounds like they are right now per Gambo. But I'd MIGHT take just those three players. Now if Jackson is off the table, I'm not sure it's worth dealing, but if I liked Bender as a prospect, I'd consider Bledsoe, Phx's 2018 unprotected pick, Phx's 2020 pick (or a pick swap in 2019) and Bender.

Other than that, I don't think it's worth it. I don't even think Bledsoe and Phx's unprotected pick next year is worth it, even though that could be Doncic or someone. If that was the best offer I could get, I'd do it though. I'd much prefer that to Warren if I'm the Cavs, as you can very likely have a centerpiece for the future post LeBron and can start building through the draft.

My biggest concern is we might be assuming Kyrie with Lebron is all the Kyrie we would get, while he may be much more.

I don't remember much of Kyrie before LeBron returned. But he has the skills (not only scoring, he has some awesome passing skills as can be seen on some assist highlights) to be a great player under different systems as well, if he buys in.

MathiasPW wrote:My biggest concern is we might be assuming Kyrie with Lebron is all the Kyrie we would get, while he may be much more.

I don't remember much of Kyrie before LeBron returned. But he has the skills (not only scoring, he has some awesome passing skills as can be seen on some assist highlights) to be a great player under different systems as well, if he buys in.

I just checked a couple of stats that are important to me.

Kyrie career:

Assist to TO - 2.04 to 1 (5.5 to 2.7) appears that he does a real good job taking care of the ball) certainly not horrible.
3p% - .383 (very good and a required skillset in today's NBA)
FT % - .873 - you can't foul him and he gets almost 4 foul shots per game.

While watching him in the finals I have really been impressed. It seems as though he can get to the hoop whenever he wants against whomever is guarding him and he is a fantastic finisher. He also is very good from distance.

I understand everyone's concerns but I also understand our managements interest.

At least it keeps the conversation going until we get to watch football.

aint no one trading for kyrie. Thier asking price is absurd and his number are super inflated playing next to lebron.

MathiasPW wrote:My biggest concern is we might be assuming Kyrie with Lebron is all the Kyrie we would get, while he may be much more.

I don't remember much of Kyrie before LeBron returned. But he has the skills (not only scoring, he has some awesome passing skills as can be seen on some assist highlights) to be a great player under different systems as well, if he buys in.

In Lowe and Windhorst's podcast, Lowe mentioned something along the lines of "I don't think he has that great vision for passing that someone like Harden has" while explaining a detailed game moment, where a defender slightly loses his man, and Windhorst says that the people in Cleveland say "No, he does...he could do all that, but he just doesn't want to...he wants to do all the fancy dribbling and launch up some impossible looking shot just to show he can do it."

Trading for Kyrie is not necessarily trying to speed up the timeline, its just the next step in building a contender. You take a shot at getting a superstar when you can. McD has always done that all along. He takes a shot at the star free agent every time. What's good is that he does not over pay for the mediocre free agents, except for BK.

But I would be fine with getting Fox out of the deal. I have a hunch that Sacramento is not going to want to part with him, even for Kyrie.

Cleveland is not going to get as much for him as people think.

jcsunsfan wrote:Trading for Kyrie is not necessarily trying to speed up the timeline, its just the next step in building a contender. You take a shot at getting a superstar when you can. McD has always done that all along. He takes a shot at the star free agent every time. What's good is that he does not over pay for the mediocre free agents, except for BK.

But I would be fine with getting Fox out of the deal. I have a hunch that Sacramento is not going to want to part with him, even for Kyrie.

Cleveland is not going to get as much for him as people think.

I seriously doubt the Kings are trading Fox. They probably know they have as much chance of keeping Kyrie in two years as we do.

We would be speeding up the timeline because if not Jackson, we would likely be trading an unprotected pick for him, or extremely lightly protected one. If we traded an unprotected pick for him and he got injured, we could be in big trouble.

But the more important factor is he'd be very unlikely to stay, since he has stated which teams he'd like to play for and is a free agent in two years. He is used to making the playoffs and being a key piece. You can bet if the Spurs want him in two years, they will make a run for him and he has already stated he will be there, and he'd likely welcome it even more after two non playoff years (if he didn't ask to get traded before).

We are in a good position. We can trade for Kyrie if we believe the trade is a good one. But we do not have to do so. We can be good staying where we are too.

I would rather have my long term point guard money invested in Kyrie Irving than Eric Bledsoe.

Now that Jackson is off the table. I say go for it with other assets, within reason.

How many players are straight up better than Irving right now and also younger? Maybe three?

Irving is a young guy who is a proven winner against the best competition. He is definitely a star, more-so than anyone on our team now. I mean if Booker were just to become an all-star reserve people here would be jumping to the moon. Yet Irving is an all-star MVP not to mention NBA champion and on this board its like, well is he really a TRUE superstar?? Yeah okay.

We get him or we don't, fine with me either way. It just seems like the arguments against going for him at all are a bit absurd. There is a feeling we have to have just the exact perfect player. To the point that we can only really desire players we can't possibly get. Anyone that may actually be available to us is not good enough. Perhaps the holy union that must take place for our chosen player to be born upon the Earth has not yet even occurred. Granted that is hyperbole and not a great argument either.

Point is, yeah Kyrie Irving may not pan out, yeah he could leave, whatever. I just don't like the idea of us sort of refusing to try anything for fear of messing up our hashtag trustthetimeline. Instead all we are supposed to do is put insanely high hopes on a never ending series of 18 to 20 year old kids.

bwgood77 wrote:

MathiasPW wrote:My biggest concern is we might be assuming Kyrie with Lebron is all the Kyrie we would get, while he may be much more.

I don't remember much of Kyrie before LeBron returned. But he has the skills (not only scoring, he has some awesome passing skills as can be seen on some assist highlights) to be a great player under different systems as well, if he buys in.

In Lowe and Windhorst's podcast, Lowe mentioned something along the lines of "I don't think he has that great vision for passing that someone like Harden has" while explaining a detailed game moment, where a defender slightly loses his man, and Windhorst says that the people in Cleveland say "No, he does...he could do all that, but he just doesn't want to...he wants to do all the fancy dribbling and launch up some impossible looking shot just to show he can do it."

This isn't the first time Windhorst has talked negatively about Kyrie. Windhorst is Lebron's avatar in the world of rumors, leaks and "sources". He's a guy that started covering Lebron in his first stint with Cleveland, then moved to ESPN when Lebron signed with Miami (and when ESPN started a whole section following the Heat) and now he's back in Cleveland covering Lebron.

It comes at no surprise that the guy who's been getting the inside feed from Lebron's camp, significantly helping his career, is going to disparage Kyrie while painting Lebron as the good guy.

I really don't remember seeing this many posters questioning Kyrie's star status until all of a sudden when he became available and the Suns reportedly throwing their hat in the ring. It feels like now that there is some chatter about the Suns wanting in that posters find every single stat, every single article they could to disparage Kyrie's star status.

I don't believe Kyrie is on the same MVP level of Lebron, Harden, Westbrook, KD, Curry or Kawhi. Let's get that out of the way.

I don't want to keep listing all of Kyrie's positives because I've done it a few times already but I really have to ask again, what are we REALLY giving up for a top 15-20 player in the league at 25? I'll put JJ and Booker in the untouchable bucket but to me, everyone else should be tradeable. I don't know, although I'm sceptical that a package of Bledsoe, Warren and a few picks would get it done but if we use that as the baseline, the only long term player we give up isWarren. A guy who probably won't be a top 20-30 player in the league. It's not a crazy package for a very, very good player.

Yes, he could leave in two seasons, but in two seasons what have we given up? A couple of picks which could easily end up as nothing, Warren who may be a 20/8 player (which is awesome) and a 29 year old Bledsoe who's due for a new deal.

Yeah I understand Kyrie could possibly walk in a few years but seriously why would he want to? What situation would be better? He seems kind of open minded with his current list of teams. I suppose the Cavs are prolly thinking the same thing about now but their ownership with Dan Gilbert is a bit unstable to say the least and there's also the LeBron factor there too. With that said so many greats have loved playing in PHX over the years (KJ, Barkley, Nash, Marion, Amare, etc). As an ASU grad I can say the Phoenix area is one of the best places in the country. Surround Kyrie with talent and it could be a perfect match. I'm guessing McD will take a chance on a star somewhere along the line so trading for a 25 year old who has already made the winning shot in the Finals could possibly be the best chance to add a potential long term superstar.

It's a guard dominated league these days so if one of the best ones hit the market it's definitely worth it to at least inquire which may be all that happens here.