Trade & FA Ideas & Discussion #5: A Serving of Irving?

[Dupp]

Seeing this old piece posted on the General Board reminded me again of why I'm not a huge fan of getting Kyrie..

Several unnamed members of the Cleveland Cavaliers are reportedly unhappy with Kyrie Irving's shoot-first, pass-later approach to the point guard position, according to Chris Haynes of Cleveland.com.

Those frustrations were exacerbated Wednesday night. With LeBron James taking the evening off, Irving scored 33 points on 12-of-28 shooting from the field in a 99-98 win over the Dallas Mavericks, but he managed just one assist.

While his teammates are frustrated with a lack of assists, they are more frustrated that Irving often seems unwilling to pass, per Haynes. He noted that Irving's teammates were left scratching their heads at one point during the game when Irving dribbled for the duration of the shot clock before putting up a tough shot that he missed.

Haynes added, "The notion within the locker room is that the situation is tolerable, because it isn't permanent. If the Cavaliers were dealt the misfortune of playing without [LeBron] James for an extended period of time, this locker room would be boiling over."

His teammates reportedly taking issue with his lack of distribution isn't new this season. In February, Haynes reported that James, "has been growing livid about being the sole proprietor of making sure guys are involved, and in a rhythm" and that "Irving has to take some of that responsibility away."

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2625552-kyrie-irvings-lack-of-passing-reportedly-frustrating-cavaliers-teammates

I think that might of been around the time Kyrie also git a zero assist game and Lebron actually called out Kyrie in the media and then continued to publicly take note of kyries assists for a number of games. It was at a time we were playing really bad and it took a strong "alpha" (stupid word) leader like Lebron to get him in check and semi play the right way.


Point being I completely understand not wanting him. Supremely talented dumb dumb player. And if you don't have that someone to keep him in check it's probably gonna be an issue.

On the flip maybe he was the key to cavs getting 3 outta 4 number one picks so that kinda luck would be nice for you.


What's funny about his assist numbers is we were like 15-0 when Kyrie got double didget assists. RJ mentioned it in his podcast to Kyrie and had a laugh and Kyrie kinda brushed it off a bit. I don't think he ever totally grasped he could really help the team way more if he went just like 20% more toward facilitator.

He's got probably the worst court vision ( particularly out of the pick n roll) I've ever seen from an elite guard. Some of that is unwillingness to pass but a lot of that is he just can't make quick decisions / passes.



But yeah please take him if you put together a good package!

[bwgood77]

Seeing this old piece posted on the General Board reminded me again of why I'm not a huge fan of getting Kyrie..

Several unnamed members of the Cleveland Cavaliers are reportedly unhappy with Kyrie Irving's shoot-first, pass-later approach to the point guard position, according to Chris Haynes of Cleveland.com.

Those frustrations were exacerbated Wednesday night. With LeBron James taking the evening off, Irving scored 33 points on 12-of-28 shooting from the field in a 99-98 win over the Dallas Mavericks, but he managed just one assist.

While his teammates are frustrated with a lack of assists, they are more frustrated that Irving often seems unwilling to pass, per Haynes. He noted that Irving's teammates were left scratching their heads at one point during the game when Irving dribbled for the duration of the shot clock before putting up a tough shot that he missed.

Haynes added, "The notion within the locker room is that the situation is tolerable, because it isn't permanent. If the Cavaliers were dealt the misfortune of playing without [LeBron] James for an extended period of time, this locker room would be boiling over."

His teammates reportedly taking issue with his lack of distribution isn't new this season. In February, Haynes reported that James, "has been growing livid about being the sole proprietor of making sure guys are involved, and in a rhythm" and that "Irving has to take some of that responsibility away."

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2625552-kyrie-irvings-lack-of-passing-reportedly-frustrating-cavaliers-teammates

I think that might of been around the time Kyrie also git a zero assist game and Lebron actually called out Kyrie in the media and then continued to publicly take note of kyries assists for a number of games. It was at a time we were playing really bad and it took a strong "alpha" (stupid word) leader like Lebron to get him in check and semi play the right way.

Point being I completely understand not wanting him. Supremely talented dumb dumb player. And if you don't have that someone to keep him in check it's probably gonna be an issue.

On the flip maybe he was the key to cavs getting 3 outta 4 number one picks so that kinda luck would be nice for you.

What's funny about his assist numbers is we were like 15-0 when Kyrie got double didget assists. RJ mentioned it in his podcast to Kyrie and had a laugh and Kyrie kinda brushed it off a bit. I don't think he ever totally grasped he could really help the team way more if he went just like 20% more toward facilitator.

He's got probably the worst court vision ( particularly out of the pick n roll) I've ever seen from an elite guard. Some of that is unwillingness to pass but a lot of that is he just can't make quick decisions / passes.

But yeah please take him if you put together a good package!

I remember LeBron calling him out for the zero assist game where he took a ton of shots.

Yeah, I think it's safe to say there's a good chance that Booker, Jackson and whoever else would be here might not like playing with him too much.

I am pretty sick of having dumb players. But I guess it's better if they are supremely talented, as you say, though it might just make it all the more frustrating when they are playing dumb.

But Sarver may push for a trade just because another guy who scores a lot would get a lot of fans excited and put butts in seats, even if the type of play and lack of defense didn't lead to winning. But yeah, good point in leading you to two #1 picks. Maybe he brings that karma. If not playing with LeBron and making the championship, you get the #1 pick! Best of both worlds!

[Mulhollanddrive]

I wonder if RealGM existed in 2004 we'd not want Nash because of opinions about his defense.

[Dupp]

Seeing this old piece posted on the General Board reminded me again of why I'm not a huge fan of getting Kyrie..



http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2625552-kyrie-irvings-lack-of-passing-reportedly-frustrating-cavaliers-teammates

I think that might of been around the time Kyrie also git a zero assist game and Lebron actually called out Kyrie in the media and then continued to publicly take note of kyries assists for a number of games. It was at a time we were playing really bad and it took a strong "alpha" (stupid word) leader like Lebron to get him in check and semi play the right way.

Point being I completely understand not wanting him. Supremely talented dumb dumb player. And if you don't have that someone to keep him in check it's probably gonna be an issue.

On the flip maybe he was the key to cavs getting 3 outta 4 number one picks so that kinda luck would be nice for you.

What's funny about his assist numbers is we were like 15-0 when Kyrie got double didget assists. RJ mentioned it in his podcast to Kyrie and had a laugh and Kyrie kinda brushed it off a bit. I don't think he ever totally grasped he could really help the team way more if he went just like 20% more toward facilitator.

He's got probably the worst court vision ( particularly out of the pick n roll) I've ever seen from an elite guard. Some of that is unwillingness to pass but a lot of that is he just can't make quick decisions / passes.

But yeah please take him if you put together a good package!

I remember LeBron calling him out for the zero assist game where he took a ton of shots.

Yeah, I think it's safe to say there's a good chance that Booker, Jackson and whoever else would be here might not like playing with him too much.

I am pretty sick of having dumb players. But I guess it's better if they are supremely talented, as you say, though it might just make it all the more frustrating when they are playing dumb.

But Sarver may push for a trade just because another guy who scores a lot would get a lot of fans excited and put butts in seats, even if the type of play and lack of defense didn't lead to winning. But yeah, good point in leading you to two #1 picks. Maybe he brings that karma. If not playing with LeBron and making the championship, you get the #1 pick! Best of both worlds!

Its hard to really say how much kyrie will grow as a player. Hes either had the worst roster in the league or second best one with lebron. Not sure how he'd handle or grow in that middle ground.

He hasnt seemed to change much as a player so far just improved. Even if he does grow and get smarter he'll still have a lot of the same floors and hugely benifit playing with a really good playmaker. I'm not sure its ever gonna be good with him as the teams best playmaker.

[Dupp]

I wonder if RealGM existed in 2004 we'd not want Nash because of opinions about his defense.

Nash tried at least. He was basically the opposite of kyrie. No tools, a lot of effort. Also happens to be one of the best offensive players ever.

[bwgood77]

I think that might of been around the time Kyrie also git a zero assist game and Lebron actually called out Kyrie in the media and then continued to publicly take note of kyries assists for a number of games. It was at a time we were playing really bad and it took a strong "alpha" (stupid word) leader like Lebron to get him in check and semi play the right way.

Point being I completely understand not wanting him. Supremely talented dumb dumb player. And if you don't have that someone to keep him in check it's probably gonna be an issue.

On the flip maybe he was the key to cavs getting 3 outta 4 number one picks so that kinda luck would be nice for you.

What's funny about his assist numbers is we were like 15-0 when Kyrie got double didget assists. RJ mentioned it in his podcast to Kyrie and had a laugh and Kyrie kinda brushed it off a bit. I don't think he ever totally grasped he could really help the team way more if he went just like 20% more toward facilitator.

He's got probably the worst court vision ( particularly out of the pick n roll) I've ever seen from an elite guard. Some of that is unwillingness to pass but a lot of that is he just can't make quick decisions / passes.

But yeah please take him if you put together a good package!

I remember LeBron calling him out for the zero assist game where he took a ton of shots.

Yeah, I think it's safe to say there's a good chance that Booker, Jackson and whoever else would be here might not like playing with him too much.

I am pretty sick of having dumb players. But I guess it's better if they are supremely talented, as you say, though it might just make it all the more frustrating when they are playing dumb.

But Sarver may push for a trade just because another guy who scores a lot would get a lot of fans excited and put butts in seats, even if the type of play and lack of defense didn't lead to winning. But yeah, good point in leading you to two #1 picks. Maybe he brings that karma. If not playing with LeBron and making the championship, you get the #1 pick! Best of both worlds!

Its hard to really say how much kyrie will grow as a player. Hes either had the worst roster in the league or second best one with lebron. Not sure how he'd handle or grow in that middle ground.

He hasnt seemed to change much as a player so far just improved. Even if he does grow and get smarter he'll still have a lot of the same floors and hugely benifit playing with a really good playmaker. I'm not sure its ever gonna be good with him as the teams best playmaker.

The good thing if he did come to Phx is that Booker, Jackson and Bender are all fairly good playmakers (or I think have the tools and bbiq to become good playmakers) so if they were in a lineup with him they are fine, and Warren is good at finding his points off misses or cuts.

Of course we are likely to lose one of those guys in a potential trade. Chriss serves best as a finisher and is pretty useless on both sides off ball so I don't think he'd be a great fit with Irving, though he might be at times with LeBron (though his bbiq and losign composure would frustrate LeBron).

Bledsoe and Chriss have pretty good chemistry though (probably better chemistry than Warren or Bender have with Bled). I think getting Chriss with Bled might make more sense not only for that, but I think being on a team with Chriss might influence Bled to stay in Cleveland after two years (provided you wanted him too) since Chriss has seemed to get close with his teammates.

[bwgood77]

I wonder if RealGM existed in 2004 we'd not want Nash because of opinions about his defense.

Nash tried at least. He was basically the opposite of kyrie. No tools, a lot of effort. Also happens to be one of the best offensive players ever.

Oh yeah, my main beef isn't Kyrie's defense, it's his selfishness on offense. Nash was the opposite of that.

[collidingNeurons]

I wonder if RealGM existed in 2004 we'd not want Nash because of opinions about his defense.

Nash tried at least. He was basically the opposite of kyrie. No tools, a lot of effort. Also happens to be one of the best offensive players ever.

Oh yeah, my main beef isn't Kyrie's defense, it's his selfishness on offense. Nash was the opposite of that.

this has a lot to do with my complaint too, and the fact he doesn't seem to be a well liked team mate, i cant recall anyone else on the heat or cavs complaining about playing with Lebron and who wants to leave the second best team in the league with three trips to the finals over something asimmature as ego other than kyrie, he has the makings of a Marbury clone to me, a me first player with all the talent in the world that never seem to make his team better.. and he seems petty and sulky to me( just an impression) not to mention when it was first announced he wanted to be traded a lot of the cav fans were acting like they expected a trade someone would put together for Anthony Davis and not Kyrie, and those are worlds apart to me

[bwgood77]

Nash tried at least. He was basically the opposite of kyrie. No tools, a lot of effort. Also happens to be one of the best offensive players ever.

Oh yeah, my main beef isn't Kyrie's defense, it's his selfishness on offense. Nash was the opposite of that.

this has a lot to do with my complaint too, and the fact he doesn't seem to be a well liked team mate, i cant recall anyone else on the heat or cavs complaining about playing with Lebron and who wants to leave the second best team in the league with three trips to the finals over something asimmature as ego other than kyrie, he has the makings of a Marbury clone to me, a me first player with all the talent in the world that never seem to make his team better.. and he seems petty and sulky to me( just an impression) not to mention when it was first announced he wanted to be traded a lot of the cav fans were acting like they expected a trade someone would put together for Anthony Davis and not Kyrie, and those are worlds apart to me

Yes, never been a fan of me first guys. A trade for AD would likely be turned down no matter what, even if we offered our own unprotected pick next year and in 2020, both Miami picks, and Bender, Chriss and Booker.

[collidingNeurons]

Oh yeah, my main beef isn't Kyrie's defense, it's his selfishness on offense. Nash was the opposite of that.

this has a lot to do with my complaint too, and the fact he doesn't seem to be a well liked team mate, i cant recall anyone else on the heat or cavs complaining about playing with Lebron and who wants to leave the second best team in the league with three trips to the finals over something asimmature as ego other than kyrie, he has the makings of a Marbury clone to me, a me first player with all the talent in the world that never seem to make his team better.. and he seems petty and sulky to me( just an impression) not to mention when it was first announced he wanted to be traded a lot of the cav fans were acting like they expected a trade someone would put together for Anthony Davis and not Kyrie, and those are worlds apart to me

Yes, never been a fan of me first guys. A trade for AD would likely be turned down no matter what, even if we offered our own unprotected pick next year and in 2020, both Miami picks, and Bender, Chriss and Booker.

agreed however i saw similar types of trade proposals from cav fans as that for Kyrie, some even suggesting they might get Bledsoe, Jackson and two unprotected picks and one beat writer acting like Booker, Jackson and a pick was a reasonable expectation

[Waylay13]

I wonder if RealGM existed in 2004 we'd not want Nash because of opinions about his defense.

Nash tried at least. He was basically the opposite of kyrie. No tools, a lot of effort. Also happens to be one of the best offensive players ever.

Oh yeah, my main beef isn't Kyrie's defense, it's his selfishness on offense. Nash was the opposite of that.

If we were looking to trade for a player who averaged 10 assists I would be much more open to the trade. I may not still be up for trading Jackson but I would be open to trading other things and players.

[collidingNeurons]

and for the record realgm was here in 2004 when Nash signed and quite awhile before that

[bwgood77]

and for the record realgm was here in 2004 when Nash signed and quite awhile before that

Yeah, I meant to say that too. It is interesting to look at the list of Suns posters (listed in order of join date) to see when each poster joined, though only posters who had the Suns logo as their favorite team are on the list.

So many moved from espn. I was actually recruited by rsavaj on espn.

[collidingNeurons]

and for the record realgm was here in 2004 when Nash signed and quite awhile before that

Yeah, I meant to say that too. It is interesting to look at the list of Suns posters (listed in order of join date) to see when each poster joined, though only posters who had the Suns logo as their favorite team are on the list.

So many moved from espn. I was actually recruited by rsavaj on espn.

i read a bit on espn but never posted there, the ragaholics and trolls were just too prevalent for me

[bwgood77]

and for the record realgm was here in 2004 when Nash signed and quite awhile before that

Yeah, I meant to say that too. It is interesting to look at the list of Suns posters (listed in order of join date) to see when each poster joined, though only posters who had the Suns logo as their favorite team are on the list.

So many moved from espn. I was actually recruited by rsavaj on espn.

i read a bit on espn but never posted there, the ragaholics and trolls were just too prevalent for me

It wasn't bad from 2005-2007 or so and went downhill after that...still ok through my join date but yes there were trolls. I didn't post a ton back then.

[ATTL]

I wonder if RealGM existed in 2004 we'd not want Nash because of opinions about his defense.

As someone who was here, I remember most not thinking he was an upgrade over marbury. Of course we had 5 active posters at that time.

[Moochthemonkey]

I wonder if RealGM existed in 2004 we'd not want Nash because of opinions about his defense.

RealGM has been here since Jason Kidd was on the team. In fact the only active players currently under contract prior to RealGM's inception are Dirk Nowitzki and Jamal Crawford.

If the same group that posts now was to be teleported 13 seasons back then I believe the poll result of acquiring Nash would be a resounding NO and defense is perhaps the least of it. (the only people that wouldn't end up eating crow would be bigfoot and Frank Lee )

Nash had made the all star and NBA third teams twice ('02-'03) but he was 30 years old and statistically putting up slightly above average numbers (14 and 9). To put that in perspective, there were comments here in 2012 ascribing that Dragic at 26 was too old to be a cornerstone of a franchise. A 30 year old doesn't fit into the #timeline unless he's a 12th man cheerleader/locker room presence (ideally on a vet minimum salary).

Most importantly, we just had started a rebuild midseason by trading away Marbury, Hardaway, and Gugliotta not to mention getting a new coach. And the team won less than 30 times for the first time since 1988. Nash would almost certainly make teammates better and lead a positive environment- whether there is question whether someone like Kyrie would do the same. but in either circumstance the asset retained outweighs the shorter term benefits: meaning landing a top draft pick over clawing for a projected 8th-10th seed. Why not 'let the young guys play' and 'gratuitously give players days of for basketball reasons' to improve adding a solid prospect to the core of Marion/Stoudemire/Johnson.

Steve Nash made 8.75 million in his first (returning) year here. that's 20% of the cap...Jeff Teague is making about 20% of the cap right now, and he's similar to a 2004 Nash: 29 years and coming off a 15/8 season. say Eric Bledsoe wasn't here, would you want to give 20% of the cap to a Jeff Teague

and this is disregarding the point that Nash was signed here as an FA; a 25 y/o Kyrie would come here at the cost of multiple assets. And I haven't read much qualms here if those assets are just Bledsoe/Warren (or Chriss)/top 10 protected pick. But giving up Joe Johnson and picks to acquire 30 y/o Nash? Sarver might do it, but there would be little to no RealGMers that would pull the trigger on that one.

there was concerns regarding Nash's back too (rumored to be the reason Cuban didn't pay him) although it didn't really show in DNPs.

I'm off tangent in my ramble as you were only talking about Nash/Irving's lack of defense, but I'd imagine this community would overall react negatively to acquiring Nash in 2004, even if was just through FA. but to be fair, how many 30 year olds become surprise two-time MVPs

[LukasBMW]

I remember getting Nash and I was like....why???

I was shocked when we started the season on fire. Thing is, I think we had the best record in the NBA 15 games into the season and no one was showing up at the games. I remember getting tickets from scalpers super cheap for the first half of the season. Then all the fans caught on and you couldn't get a seat.

[bwgood77]

I wonder if RealGM existed in 2004 we'd not want Nash because of opinions about his defense.

RealGM has been here since Jason Kidd was on the team. In fact the only active players currently under contract prior to RealGM's inception are Dirk Nowitzki and Jamal Crawford.

If the same group that posts now was to be teleported 13 seasons back then I believe the poll result of acquiring Nash would be a resounding NO and defense is perhaps the least of it. (the only people that wouldn't end up eating crow would be bigfoot and Frank Lee )

Nash had made the all star and NBA third teams twice ('02-'03) but he was 30 years old and statistically putting up slightly above average numbers (14 and 9). To put that in perspective, there were comments here in 2012 ascribing that Dragic at 26 was too old to be a cornerstone of a franchise. A 30 year old doesn't fit into the #timeline unless he's a 12th man cheerleader/locker room presence (ideally on a vet minimum salary).

Most importantly, we just had started a rebuild midseason by trading away Marbury, Hardaway, and Gugliotta not to mention getting a new coach. And the team won less than 30 times for the first time since 1988. Nash would almost certainly make teammates better and lead a positive environment- whether there is question whether someone like Kyrie would do the same. but in either circumstance the asset retained outweighs the shorter term benefits: meaning landing a top draft pick over clawing for a projected 8th-10th seed. Why not 'let the young guys play' and 'gratuitously give players days of for basketball reasons' to improve adding a solid prospect to the core of Marion/Stoudemire/Johnson.

Steve Nash made 8.75 million in his first (returning) year here. that's 20% of the cap...Jeff Teague is making about 20% of the cap right now, and he's similar to a 2004 Nash: 29 years and coming off a 15/8 season. say Eric Bledsoe wasn't here, would you want to give 20% of the cap to a Jeff Teague

and this is disregarding the point that Nash was signed here as an FA; a 25 y/o Kyrie would come here at the cost of multiple assets. And I haven't read much qualms here if those assets are just Bledsoe/Warren (or Chriss)/top 10 protected pick. But giving up Joe Johnson and picks to acquire 30 y/o Nash? Sarver might do it, but there would be little to no RealGMers that would pull the trigger on that one.

there was concerns regarding Nash's back too (rumored to be the reason Cuban didn't pay him) although it didn't really show in DNPs.

I'm off tangent in my ramble as you were only talking about Nash/Irving's lack of defense, but I'd imagine this community would overall react negatively to acquiring Nash in 2004, even if was just through FA. but to be fair, how many 30 year olds become surprise two-time MVPs

I can't believe you were monitoring the boards at that time, but I can't imagine acquiring Nash in free agency after trading Marbury would not have been a popular move. I mean we drafted him and he was a liked player. We had a rookie of the year, Marion who was a lottery pick and traded vets for a young Joe Johnson. We had filled the other positions. But the bigger difference at that point in time was that we were NEVER a losing team, so ANY big free agent signing would have been popular.

But the primary and most important point is that Nash CHOSE to sign with us and gave us a commitment for a number of years. With Kyrie, not only is there no commitment, but I imagine it is unlikely he would stay, and we would lose assets in the process. That is a big difference, but I guess you acknowledged that.

I enjoyed reading your post though.

[collidingNeurons]

Amare was nearly as important as Nash and used to help recruit him then you had johnson and Marion, and Quentin Richardson came in that year too, not to mention Dantoni was a brand new version of basketball then, it' the main reason the NBA is as it is now in my opinion... a lot of us were ready to move on past marbury by the time he left but most of us weren't the visionary that Dantoni was so most were luke warm at best on Nash