Season Speculation, Trade Ideas & Discussion Pt. 4

[bwgood77]

I don't think our Centers are that bad:

Per 30:
Monroe 14-10 on 120 O-Rating
Len 12-12-1 on 120 O-Rating
Chandler 8-11 on 127 O-Rating

Per 30:
Jordan 13-9-1 on 126 O-Rating
Gasol 16-7-1 on 102 O-Rating

This is the primary reason other than Doncic possibly being a transcendent player that I put him above the centers...because I feel good centers are not hard to come by these days and they are cheap due to the small ball trend. Sure, there are centers that put up huge numbers and look great, but most of those guys are on teams not doing so well. The Pistons were, but they have regressed. I just don't think centers are nearly as valuable as versatile players that can distribute and hit the 3. That is what the best teams have.

You want a center that can protect the rim and grab rebounds but I think even a guy like Len, on a team with great shooting and passing, like the Warriors, blocking shots and pulling down rebounds, would be solid.

[bwgood77]

No. I'm advocating against George Hill, Marc Gasol, and Mike Conley, all guys who make huge amounts of money. There is a real and very tangible opportunity cost there. By making said move for the old dude who isn't worth his contract and isn't good enough to move the needle to even make the playoffs without additional moves, you ruin the opportunity to sign somebody in the offseason, all for winning a few (not many) more games today, with the only real method of still improving at that point limited to later draft picks and trades where you will have to give up some stuff of real value. Thus, you are trading more than just the players involved. The cap is our biggest and only advantage in FA. You want to ignore that, and literally everything bolded above was said about Tyson. No, we couldn't use guys like that. We could use a Gasol at 26, not at 32. And 32 year old bigs are in their prime for maybe 1 year. Their prime is exiting any second now.

Here are some guys we could use: Aaron Gordon, Porzingis, Capela, Cousins. Those are the types of needlechanging moves we should be targetting and that make sense. They likely won't happen, but if you are patient you will eventually get an opportunity at getting a guy who fits our team's age range. I would approve of any and all of those despite it hurting the tank this year. Those are very different from the awful desired contracts some here seem to covet like George Hill, Rubio, Gasol, and Conley.

I'll just say this; I wouldn't give up much for players like Hill, Gasol or Conley. They are way too expensive for who they are. Rubio I might look at because I think he's the vet PG who could help us. I don't have any issue overpaying short term money for a vet who can get us playing the right way and make Booker and TJ better. I don't mind paying for guys like DeAndre, Rubio, Kyrie (before he was traded) short term money because we have that now and these are player who I think can help us play good basketball.[/quote]

The guys you list that we can use are not going anywhere. Have you looked at the thread on the General Board about top 20 players this season? People are arguing Capela is there. Zero chance anyone else on that list gets trade except a slim chance on Cousins..but 95% chance they max him and he takes it. And if we trade for him or tried to it would take more than someone like Bender, Chriss, Jackson and the Bucks or Heat pick and he might leave us anyway....probably would...why would he stay? I know you say Booker is a draw, but more than AD? It's not like AD is taking anything away for Cousins.

The only trade I would consider out of the names you mention is Monroe straight up for Hill. I think Hill would give us a vet PG who would play the right way and it could rub off and he will pass and can hit the 3 when needed. He is expensive but we could get out for 2019. If I thought we could make a big play in FA this next summer I would be against Hill, but I don't see it, but I understand not doing it for that space and for a potentially higher pick.

But Hill wants to win, so he very well might not be happy with the Suns either. It's probably best to avoid that, but I think he could potentially have a good influence on our team if we did trade for him. I wouldn't give up more than Monoe straight up though just to give the salary relief.

[Mulhollanddrive]

Len is the only player in the NBA to average 14 points, 14 rebounds, 1 block, 70% FT per 36.

[nevetsov]

I'd still like to make a strong push for Schroeder if at all possible. Don't even mind an overpay to get him.

* Established player who projects as capable 3-4 option
* Fits age profile of core
* Fills a position of desperate need
* Signed long term on a good deal (Warren money, solid value for a 3-4 option)

With ATL in the tank race, young pieces and/ or late lotto picks would be fair value to me.

[RaisingArizona]

Damn, Marc Gasol is 32 years old?


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33 in Jan 18

Gasol isn't really a high flyer or anyone that depends on athleticism too much. He's solid fundamentally. I don't think he'll drop off too dramatically as he ages. I could see him playing damn well near 40.

[theo001]

Ulis / Booker / Warren + JJ + Doncic / Bender + Chriss + Bridges / Chandler

No obstacles to start backcourt Doncic-Booker-Warren(Jackson). Luka is a point forward like Simmons.

[asudevil]

Len is the only player in the NBA to average 14 points, 14 rebounds, 1 block, 70% FT per 36.

Len has 3 things going against him:

a.) His hands. They are terrible.
b.) Consistency. It could be argued that he's been given less than consistent minutes throughout his career though. But there have been numerous times in which he's followed an all-star like appearance with games in which he's vanished.
c.) Limited game. When outside of 15ft, Len has very limited game. In today's game a center has great value when then can score from the outside. OR if the rest of the team has range from 3. This clears the lane for him, and spreads the floor for outside shooters. But this team consistently lacks that for the most part.

Len would thrive in a system in which teams fear the outside game. Today, the suns clearly lack that. His success/ability depends on the players around him too much.

IMO Len is on this team at the wrong time. Given another year or two IF Jackson/Bender/Chriss develop into outside threats consistently then Len would be the perfect C for this team. But right now his skills do not fit.

[RaisingArizona]

Who else is expecting a Dec. 15 trade?

[theo001]

Who else is expecting a Dec. 15 trade?

Really? next opportunity to **** up something by McDonough

[NavLDO]

I don't think Ulis is our long term answer our point guard. I know we can cherry pick some games to prove he isn't all that bad, and I think he's a fine backup PG, but I hope to find a long term improvement in the draft. I don't see his defense (despite the great effort) being good enough to be a starter on hopefully a solid playoff team.

If our standard is being a better shooter than Rubio and Mudiay than that's pretty low. Hill isn't a long term answer and hasn't played particularly well, but is shooting 43.8% from 3 this year and is a solid vet and defender. Ulis is shooting 28.6% from 3 this year. Sure he's had a stretch of games shooting better. TJ Warren has shot 43% from 3 over his last 4 games, but that doesn't mean I'd consider him a good three point shooter.

I am one of those who is fine standing pat even though I wouldn't mind finding a more solid PG. The problem is I don't see any as attainable that would make much sense,

Overall I think Hill would be the type of guy that might be attainable and might make some sense to have around for a year, given our overall subpar PG situation, though he hasn't had a great year overall, but I can also understand wanting to keep our cap sheet clean too for this summer since he doesn't ultimately move the needle much, and I'm not that concerned with getting a few extra wins. As a matter of fact, when they come because of a vet that is kind of frustrating, as I'd rather any wins come on the backs of our young guys. In theory a vet PG like Hill would make them better, though Skal, Fox and some of the other young guys are not playing well for Sacramento. Hield is though.

I don't imagine us having much of a shot at Boogie or another "big name free agent" either though, but that doesn't mean it's not worth trying. There are not many big name free agents in the next two summers that I think would sign and also make a lot of sense for our team. A lot of them happen to be shooting guards, particularly in 2019.

Hopefully our biggest difference makers are people we draft this summer or guys who are already on the team.

All salient points. Ulis does not have to be our answer at PG for the future, but for this season? Why not. James has his moments, as he did last night...17/5 on 58% shooting in just 20 minutes, while Ulis struggled. It happens.

But it's obvious, they are not our answer as full time starters; at least not what I've seen, but I guess it's possible that Ulis really improves as the season pushes on.

As far as having a shot at a 'big name' FA, you are also right; probably not happening, but I think we kind of all knew this, didn't we? Even McD, which is/was the reason for asset collection, which really baffles me. Quite a few fans here want to keep drafting rookie after rookie to develop, but I personally do not see it that way. We should not be getting 'attached' to all of these guys. Some? Sure. But we have no need for two starting SFs and two Top 10 (otherwise known as 'expected starter-level) PFs.

Additionally, we have 2 picks that will likely be in the lottery (or close to lottery). One would be great to have on board, but two?

We can only start 5 players; we currently lack a PG and a C. I know you've mentioned PF as well, but realistically, I hope we give Bender or Chriss more than 2 years and to the age of 23 before we truly define them as busts.

But we have either Warren or JJ and Chriss or Bender, and on a smaller scale, Ulis and James. We also have veteran such as Chandler and Dudley, given their contracts, they aren't half bad as assets for a few teams, I bet. And then, we have 3 future 1sts that are not ours.

IMO,we should keep our pick, pick the best available Center or PG, and trade the other pick. If no Center/PG is worthy of where we pick, then trade down or pick best player available, then make best possible trade REGARDLESS of what it is...DO NOT bring a 3rd SF or PF on to this roster. Trade the player we just drafted or trade the other players we have already at the position, but we cannot leave Draft night with...

Ulis / Booker / Warren + JJ + Doncic / Bender + Chriss + Bridges / Chandler

We just sign ourselves up for this year all over again...

Anyway, spot on on a lot points your bring up, BW. But don't forget the 'trade' option, because that is likely the only way we get a Vet star here, but it's also a very realistic option, since we have the firepower to make it happen...

Agree with most all of that, except I've seen you post about Doncic, who I think can be a transcendent player, and that you think he may be redundant, but I don't think you should think of him as a SF or pigeon hole him into a position. Just like you saying Fultz could be expendable because Simmons is basically running point. Doncic will probably be the primary ball handler on his team but can play off ball, so I think basically having him and Booker handle those duties in the backcourt, we'd have size, but the offensive firepower and bbiq would be crazy.

I am more luckewarm on C, because I think these days there are a surplus of fairly solid centers and they are going to be running cheap because of that, due to the surplus and small ball, and you really want a rim protector and defender in the middle. Offensive centers leave it tough to lead to wins. KAT is great on offense but horrid on defense which leaves MN with problems until they added Butler but still they hover above 500 with a couple or "superstars" and another guy in Wiggins some think is a premier player (I agree with you that Warren is about as effective, or moreso depending on how you view it and is much cheaper). Vucevic is on fire in Orlando with stats but it's not leading to wins.

I will take Ayton for sure if that is BPA where we draft. The defensive centers are good too, but there is big risk if they don't pan out and don't add anything offensively.

As much as I am all vested in Jackson/Warren/Bender/Chriss, sometimes I think if Porter checks out and he is there and Doncic gone it might be tough to pass. Then again, we might not have that high of a pick and we still have a lot of the college season to go.

I think this is a draft where you have to take BPA, and since that is always not clear cut and is subjective, I think you need to do it from a "already performs at high level against top competition". We need defense, but we still need desperately to spread the floor. I love Warren but we need to spread the floor to allow guys like him and Jackson to work. A Doncic/Booker back court does that. Jackson can guard PGs if needed when he is in there with them. Hopefully they all develop 3 pt shots though and Warren, Booker and Chriss continue to develop defensively...Bender too...he has the def bbiq but just make sure he stays engaged.

My issue isn't with 'Doncic', it's with a third SF. As I mentioned in a recent response, if Doncic IS the BPA to run point for us, then great...take him. I think everyone is getting hungup on me saying 'Doncic'...and not ENOUGH on me saying "THIRD SF." THAT has been my contention from the getgo, and thought I had made it clear when I said "third SF" like 5 times in post, but I guess not.

I also said, that I was perfectly fine with taking Doncic (still assuming him as a SF) so long as we traded away the other two starting SFs for a PG and or Center. That's been my whole issue this entire time, and I think my point keeps getting taken out of context, but as we all know, if i post too long, then I drone on, I post a concise thought, and my point gets misconstrued.

So, I'll try again. I'm tired of loading up on positions while ignoring others. We are collecting assets...HAVE collected assets. It's time to cash them in, along with utilizing this draft, to get this team competitive NEXT year, and having TWO 20 YO starter-level (again, Top 10 picks imply 'starter', even if not always the case) PFs, plus TWO starter-level (yes Warren is a starting SF in this league...not a 6th-man) SFs, is not the answer. Si I'm looking at it like this:

1 young starting PF + 1 young starting SF + '18 Top 7 protected pick + '20 Unprotected 1st + '21 Unprotected 1st = Trade assets = *PG

(and for ease sake, just throwing in names...not saying this is who should NOT be traded...) And our Team should look like:

*PG / Booker / JJ / Bender / '18 1st Rd pick

Of course, Center and PG can be switched...but you get the gist...we have slots 2-4 set. Use Trade Assets above for slot 1 or 5; use a draft pick for remaining slot not taken via trade.

It really shouldn't be this hard...

[Saberestar]

Damn, Marc Gasol is 32 years old?


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33 in Jan 18

Gasol isn't really a high flyer or anyone that depends on athleticism too much. He's solid fundamentally. I don't think he'll drop off too dramatically as he ages. I could see him playing damn well near 40.

Yeah, I agree. His brother is 37 and has been playing really well for the last 5 years.

[WeekapaugGroove]

Does anyone actually believe marc gasol would be even remotely happy about getting traded to Phoenix? Lol

[Saberestar]

Does anyone actually believe marc gasol would be even remotely happy about getting traded to Phoenix? Lol

Well...that is true.

[jcsunsfan]

So what do you think that we could do that would put the Suns in contention and wouldnt hurt our future? Give up the Suns draft pick this year? and if it ends up being a top 5 pick that could give the Suns another all-star to match up with Booker. Trade JJ and in 5 years when he is the best player from this draft. How about signing a shoot first point guard like Kyrie who is only averaging 5 assists a game. No offense but there are no easy answers that we can sign or trade for a player that would give us the answer of the future. Also remember it is much harder to sign players due to the ability of teams to sign players for much higher and keep them. There are no Steve Nash's that will turn this team around out there to turn this team into a championship team.

I'm saying everything should be on the table. What if that top 5 pick ends up being a dud. What if JJ never works out his weaknesses? On the topic of Kyrie....the Celtics 23-6 and he's 2nd in the league in clutch time...

No offense but holding so much stock in all of these picks and young players and assume they'll take us to the promised land in 2020 and beyond is just as much of a potential disaster as throwing away all the picks. People look at Philly like all they did was tanked perfectly and now they have Simmons, Fultz and Embiid and forget they also whiffed on Okafor, Noel, Turner and MCW. It's taken us 4 years to realise the guy we drafted at #5 in 2013 is a dud while our two best players were drafted #13 and #14... Bender, Chriss, JJ are all up in the air and we probably will be patient and won't know what we really have until few seasons down the line. At this point, Bender and Chriss aren't exactly trending upwards and that's a scary thought. JJ has shown some flashes and has had some productive games but has largely been disappointing. Not the end of the world since he's young and we're only 30 or so games into the season but at this point you have as much evidence to say he might be the best player from this draft in 5yrs as anyone who thinks he could be the biggest bust in this draft. The reason I'm not against picking outside of the top 5 or even top 10 as a result of playing competitive basketball is because McD doesn't have a great draft record when he has a high pick anyway.

For the tankers who think doing anything that isn't tanking is 'shortsighted', think that non-tankers are advocating trading away everything just to add a few wins or that this Timeline is foolproof if we just keep sucking and keeping picking high, you're wrong.

Let's not be so blinded by this 2020 plan that McD trotted out a couple of seasons ago and think that a good plan then is still a good plan now or next season. If Booker plateaued as an inefficient 15ppg scorer who does nothing else and TJ only became a spark off the bench and nothing more (two entirely likely cases for #13 and #14 picks), then fine, keep tanking. But Booker has upped his efficiency across the board, he's rebounding better, he's making plays for his team mates and he's shown he can be a lethal 4th quarter assassin. TJ is a reliable 18ppg scorer on good efficiency (even without a 3PT shot) and much improved defense. We have two guys on this team that's ready to play competitive basketball but with team mates who aren't 2 years away from being 2 years away. Doesn't that alone prompt a review of this 2020 plan? My preference is that we start building a competitive team this offseason. If something comes along midseason that would make us competitive, let's dip into that stockpile of picks we have and get deals done. Not saying we need to trade all our assets away to try and contend but let's start building a fringe playoff team. Let's develop what we already have and let's focus on Booker.

I think people who want to develop the young guys and pick through the draft are fine with trying to get competitive this off season as well. This summer we possibly flirted with adding guys (Griffin, Millsap, Irving, all of which are currently out, interestingly enough), but we decided to stick with the young guys.

No one predicted the Watson and coaching disaster though...and while some felt the Bledsoe ending would be bad, I don't think anyone expected it to go down quite that way. So the team is awful to watch due to the lack of a PG and basically the lack of anything resembling a decent head coach for the rookie year and first offseason for Bender and Chriss.

It's ugly and can be disappointing to watch, and it would be nice to have a decent vet PG who liked to pass and get others involved more but I'm not sure what's out there other than maybe George Hill. Of course if we went that route it leaves us out of FA this summer in all likelihood.

The problem with young guys under performing to an extent you want to put them on the table for trade is that it likely also means their probable trade return value is extremely low as well.

I won't be surprised if we scramble and do a trade mid season, because there is a good chance Sarver feels the same way you do and doesn't want to stand around and wait for McD's high picks not to pan out.

I definitely think our best chance to improve the team over the long term though is to keep our picks right now and use them wisely and let Booker be the leader of the guys we build beneath him.

And you made some good points about the Sixers having some bad picks...like we did with Len...just because they struck out with MCW, Noel, Okafor, an injured Embiid they didn't just throw in the towel and say "High picks suck! We can't make the right ones!" and trade them. They used them and ended up with Simmons and Fultz...and they were patient with Embiid after him showing nothing for a couple years.

I think they are glad they did keep the picks.

In fairness to our pg’s, when they do pass our forwards throw up horrible bricks—often air balls. Good grief Chriss put up an air ball on a free throw last night.


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[Hesh]

I don't know if this has been mentioned. But the "sarverout" billboard is up. Made by contributions from fans on another board.

[WeekapaugGroove]

I'm for acquiring talent by any means possible so I'm not opposed to trading picks for a good player but there is potential downside too.

Look at Orlando. The summer of 2016 they were in a similar situation as the suns; long streak of bad seasons and getting impatient so they went out and struck a deal for Ibaka and signed Biyombo. They couldn't give Biyombo away right now and the Ibaka trade had a pretty crazy butterfly effect that wasn't great for them.

Because both Ibaka and the guys he was traded for were all traded within in a year this trade basically looked like this:

Orlando gave up Sabonis and Olidipo and ended up with Ross and a 2020 pick from OKC (acquired from the Sixers for the 2017 first rounder they got from Toronto for Serge.. kind of funny that OKC traded that pick for Grant partly because they lost Ibaka). Orlando comes up the worst of all the 4 teams effected by this move.

Indiana gave up Paul George and got Oladipo and Sabonis. They got killed for the value they got but right now they have to be trilled with this return for a guy who was leaving anyway.

Toronto gave up Ross and the 28th pick in 2017 draft for Ibaka. They are probably fine with how this all went down.

OKC gave up Serge for George. This also caused them to trade the 2020 pick for Grant and because Serge went to Toronto that meant Patrick Paterson didn't get resigned there and that helped them acquire him plus without George in OKC I don't see any way that Melo approves a deal to them so indirectly this also helped get Melo. On paper OKC would seem like the big winner but on the court it's been a struggle and chances are they will lose George for nothing this summer.

Kind of crazy that one move had such a wide range of outcomes for 4 franchises.

[LukasBMW]

Stuff like this:

https://www.theringer.com/nba/2017/12/11/16760590/lebron-james-houston-rockets-free-agency

Is the reason why we should continue to tank just a few more years.

Philly and Minnesota are the scariest young teams in the NBA and they got that way by tanking.

A few more years of pain guys. And remember, Philly wasted lotto picks on Okafor, Noel, and MCW. They hit on Embiid, Simmmons. They kinda hit on Saric. Jury is out on Fultz.

We wasted picks on Len, We hit on Booker. We kinda hit on TJ.

We just need one more hit. ONE more hit. PLUS we need one of JJ/Chriss/Bender to get it together.

[bwgood77]

I'm for acquiring talent by any means possible so I'm not opposed to trading picks for a good player but there is potential downside too.

Look at Orlando. The summer of 2016 they were in a similar situation as the suns; long streak of bad seasons and getting impatient so they went out and struck a deal for Ibaka and signed Biyombo. They couldn't give Biyombo away right now and the Ibaka trade had a pretty crazy butterfly effect that wasn't great for them.

Because both Ibaka and the guys he was traded for were all traded within in a year this trade basically looked like this:

Orlando gave up Sabonis and Olidipo and ended up with Ross and a 2020 pick from OKC (acquired from the Sixers for the 2017 first rounder they got from Toronto for Serge.. kind of funny that OKC traded that pick for Grant partly because they lost Ibaka). Orlando comes up the worst of all the 4 teams effected by this move.

Indiana gave up Paul George and got Oladipo and Sabonis. They got killed for the value they got but right now they have to be trilled with this return for a guy who was leaving anyway.

Toronto gave up Ross and the 28th pick in 2017 draft for Ibaka. They are probably fine with how this all went down.

OKC gave up Serge for George. This also caused them to trade the 2020 pick for Grant and because Serge went to Toronto that meant Patrick Paterson didn't get resigned there and that helped them acquire him plus without George in OKC I don't see any way that Melo approves a deal to them so indirectly this also helped get Melo. On paper OKC would seem like the big winner but on the court it's been a struggle and chances are they will lose George for nothing this summer.

Kind of crazy that one move had such a wide range of outcomes for 4 franchises.

Yeah, two teams give up on young players (Dipo and Sabonis) and try to trade them for a win now player and the team that ended up with Dipo and Sabonis (and was ridiculed for it) is the one watching them flourish and a team no one thought would be in the playoff mix is the 5 seed right now after losing it's star because the franchise appeared to not put enough talent around him.

[bigfoot]

Stuff like this:

https://www.theringer.com/nba/2017/12/11/16760590/lebron-james-houston-rockets-free-agency

Is the reason why we should continue to tank just a few more years.

Philly and Minnesota are the scariest young teams in the NBA and they got that way by tanking.

A few more years of pain guys. And remember, Philly wasted lotto picks on Okafor, Noel, and MCW. They hit on Embiid, Simmmons. They kinda hit on Saric. Jury is out on Fultz.

We wasted picks on Len, We hit on Booker. We kinda hit on TJ.

We just need one more hit. ONE more hit. PLUS we need one of JJ/Chriss/Bender to get it together.

This sounds really desperate. Please consider checking this out https://tinyurl.com/c2la48y

[RaisingArizona]

Stuff like this:

https://www.theringer.com/nba/2017/12/11/16760590/lebron-james-houston-rockets-free-agency

Is the reason why we should continue to tank just a few more years.

Philly and Minnesota are the scariest young teams in the NBA and they got that way by tanking.

A few more years of pain guys. And remember, Philly wasted lotto picks on Okafor, Noel, and MCW. They hit on Embiid, Simmmons. They kinda hit on Saric. Jury is out on Fultz.

We wasted picks on Len, We hit on Booker. We kinda hit on TJ.

We just need one more hit. ONE more hit. PLUS we need one of JJ/Chriss/Bender to get it together.

Given the odds of us actually getting a top 3 pick (never happened in 50 years) and us then hitting on said prospect, is it really worth throwing years away to play the lottery? At some point there has to be a better strategy than hedging all of our bets into Powerball tickets.