The Draft (Postseason Edition): 1/16/31/59 (NEW POLL)

[8on]

That's what is kind of concerning. I know AZ didn't have great defensive players but Miller's teams have always been good defensively. And you get a guy with those kinds of tools and you have your worst defensive team ever. Suddenly Miller became a bad coach? I know he's blamed a lot of any issues Ayton had (played two bigs together, bad system for Ayton, etc) but it also sounds like a lot of excuses.

Ayton passed the eye test on occasion when seeing him guard 1 on 1 or on the perimeter and he did become a better shot blocker throughout the year.

Not sure why any of that would sound like an excuse. Personnel and matchups are a very important part of defense, and most of the time Ayton was defending the same position that JJ, Tatum, and Isaac were in college instead of his natural position. Despite this, he was the only player with consistent playing time that had an individual DRTG below the team DRTG and he had the highest BLK% of any starter that Sean Miller has had. He's certainly not an elite defensive prospect, but people on here are trying to make him out as a defensive moron that only played bully ball on offense are wrong.

It's easy to say, "Ayton joined the team, their defense is bad, Miller is supposed to be a good defensive coach, so Ayton must be bad," but look at who Ayton shared the court with this year: Trier's defense fell off a cliff, PJC is a clear defensive liability, Rawle was out for half of non-conference play while his replacement had the worst DRTG on the team, and Ristic has been a defensive liability his entire time in Tucson. Now look at the 2 Sean Miller-era Arizona teams that had top 25 defensive KenPom ratings: 2014 had AG and RHJ and 2015 had Stanley and RHJ, i.e. 2 versatile NBA defensive prospects with other solid defenders like Brandon Ashley and McConnell on the court.

I did a high school study as well as college and Ayton only averaged 2.8 blocks there. Howard and even Mitch Robinson are in 6bpg and 5bpg respectively.

We’re judging guys based on high school now?

[thamadkant]

Ayton is fine if the other 4 players can help play defense.

Need a defensive PG now and a stretch defensive PF.

Rather the George/LeBron way and try to go for those guys and make them be main ball handlers.

LeBron would never consider Suns... George might.. Its close to Cali and after a season with Westbrook im sure he wants to be the main man again... He did want to win MVP one day as per his past interviews. No doubt Booker and Jackson would play off George and work well. All 3 can take turns play making... Then Ayton single covered inside...

[SkinnyOMiller]

That's what is kind of concerning. I know AZ didn't have great defensive players but Miller's teams have always been good defensively. And you get a guy with those kinds of tools and you have your worst defensive team ever. Suddenly Miller became a bad coach? I know he's blamed a lot of any issues Ayton had (played two bigs together, bad system for Ayton, etc) but it also sounds like a lot of excuses.

Ayton passed the eye test on occasion when seeing him guard 1 on 1 or on the perimeter and he did become a better shot blocker throughout the year.

Not sure why any of that would sound like an excuse. Personnel and matchups are a very important part of defense, and most of the time Ayton was defending the same position that JJ, Tatum, and Isaac were in college instead of his natural position. Despite this, he was the only player with consistent playing time that had an individual DRTG below the team DRTG and he had the highest BLK% of any starter that Sean Miller has had. He's certainly not an elite defensive prospect, but people on here are trying to make him out as a defensive moron that only played bully ball on offense are wrong.

It's easy to say, "Ayton joined the team, their defense is bad, Miller is supposed to be a good defensive coach, so Ayton must be bad," but look at who Ayton shared the court with this year: Trier's defense fell off a cliff, PJC is a clear defensive liability, Rawle was out for half of non-conference play while his replacement had the worst DRTG on the team, and Ristic has been a defensive liability his entire time in Tucson. Now look at the 2 Sean Miller-era Arizona teams that had top 25 defensive KenPom ratings: 2014 had AG and RHJ and 2015 had Stanley and RHJ, i.e. 2 versatile NBA defensive prospects with other solid defenders like Brandon Ashley and McConnell on the court.

I did a high school study as well as college and Ayton only averaged 2.8 blocks there. Howard and even Mitch Robinson are in 6bpg and 5bpg respectively.

Guys that big who are such poor shot blockers worry me a lot. There is no reason to believe he will suddenly become a whole lot better in that area either.

When you consider his size, length and athleticism you would reasonably expect his shot block numbers to be a lot higher, even as a forward.

[bwgood77]

That's what is kind of concerning. I know AZ didn't have great defensive players but Miller's teams have always been good defensively. And you get a guy with those kinds of tools and you have your worst defensive team ever. Suddenly Miller became a bad coach? I know he's blamed a lot of any issues Ayton had (played two bigs together, bad system for Ayton, etc) but it also sounds like a lot of excuses.

Ayton passed the eye test on occasion when seeing him guard 1 on 1 or on the perimeter and he did become a better shot blocker throughout the year.

Not sure why any of that would sound like an excuse. Personnel and matchups are a very important part of defense, and most of the time Ayton was defending the same position that JJ, Tatum, and Isaac were in college instead of his natural position. Despite this, he was the only player with consistent playing time that had an individual DRTG below the team DRTG and he had the highest BLK% of any starter that Sean Miller has had. He's certainly not an elite defensive prospect, but people on here are trying to make him out as a defensive moron that only played bully ball on offense are wrong.

It's easy to say, "Ayton joined the team, their defense is bad, Miller is supposed to be a good defensive coach, so Ayton must be bad," but look at who Ayton shared the court with this year: Trier's defense fell off a cliff, PJC is a clear defensive liability, Rawle was out for half of non-conference play while his replacement had the worst DRTG on the team, and Ristic has been a defensive liability his entire time in Tucson. Now look at the 2 Sean Miller-era Arizona teams that had top 25 defensive KenPom ratings: 2014 had AG and RHJ and 2015 had Stanley and RHJ, i.e. 2 versatile NBA defensive prospects with other solid defenders like Brandon Ashley and McConnell on the court.

I didn't think he was bad defending those positions and thought he looked fine much of the time 1 on 1. Obviously not having good defenders on the rest of the team hurts as well and it's a big part of the reason his help defense looked pretty bad.

But about it sounding like an excuse....it just did. I mean it is an excuse and perhaps some or all of the things are valid. Like I mentioned I've never been THAT concerned with him (like I was with Bagley, for example) on defense, because I think he's shown some good flashes of stuff and definitely has the size and length.

But then I also know that some of the indicators of good defensive translation are missing....extremely low steal rate being one of them, and then being fairly low in the block rate (in relation to franchise type Cs taken in the top 5).....but it was encouraging to see that go up over the year so if you just took, say the last half, like how we like to look at Josh Jackson's season, it would probably look pretty good.

I think a large part for me is watching a guy put up great individual numbers and a team being SO disappointing. It just creates a fear, especially already being a Suns fan and watching a team not be good for almost a decade. Maybe you can just blame it all on his teammates or coach even though a couple of them will probably be drafted. I don't know. I mean I kind of had similar concerns with Fultz and Simmons, even though I had them highly rated, though there teams were not expected to be like top 3 teams in the country either so it was a little easier to forgive, and of course I wasn't a vested fan.

[thamadkant]

Not sure why any of that would sound like an excuse. Personnel and matchups are a very important part of defense, and most of the time Ayton was defending the same position that JJ, Tatum, and Isaac were in college instead of his natural position. Despite this, he was the only player with consistent playing time that had an individual DRTG below the team DRTG and he had the highest BLK% of any starter that Sean Miller has had. He's certainly not an elite defensive prospect, but people on here are trying to make him out as a defensive moron that only played bully ball on offense are wrong.

It's easy to say, "Ayton joined the team, their defense is bad, Miller is supposed to be a good defensive coach, so Ayton must be bad," but look at who Ayton shared the court with this year: Trier's defense fell off a cliff, PJC is a clear defensive liability, Rawle was out for half of non-conference play while his replacement had the worst DRTG on the team, and Ristic has been a defensive liability his entire time in Tucson. Now look at the 2 Sean Miller-era Arizona teams that had top 25 defensive KenPom ratings: 2014 had AG and RHJ and 2015 had Stanley and RHJ, i.e. 2 versatile NBA defensive prospects with other solid defenders like Brandon Ashley and McConnell on the court.

I did a high school study as well as college and Ayton only averaged 2.8 blocks there. Howard and even Mitch Robinson are in 6bpg and 5bpg respectively.

We’re judging guys based on high school now?

Out of context post from you.


The point was... Big men with his athleticism and size should be getting 5 plus blocks against 6'6 centers in high school.

I thinks it's attitude to shot blocking. Ayton has the body and athleticism but just doesn't care for it.

[Dambo]

So excited for the euroleague final four this friday.
Can't wait to see some more from my boy Luka.

[thamadkant]

The thing with young players is that once they fall in love of the idea of player they want to be by the time they're in their early 20s... Its hard to change.


Ayton... If he can get a defensive coach to convince him that he needs to be a good rim protector to be mentioned along the Embiids and Davis's... Until then he will just be a decent center but not an GREAT one... Forget Towns... He's getting flack for being lazy defensively and I think his value is a lot lower than someone like Davis or a healthy Embiid.

Plus Towns is a freakishly skilled Center ... Ayton is more traditional with a decent jump shot.

[8on]

I did a high school study as well as college and Ayton only averaged 2.8 blocks there. Howard and even Mitch Robinson are in 6bpg and 5bpg respectively.

We’re judging guys based on high school now?

Out of context post from you.


The point was... Big men with his athleticism and size should be getting 5 plus blocks against 6'6 centers in high school.

I thinks it's attitude to shot blocking. Ayton has the body and athleticism but just doesn't care for it.

I don’t care what he did in high school. I don’t need him to care about high school. Dwight Howard only had two seasons above 2.5 per game. If I never got 2.5 per game out of Ayton, I wouldn’t care. 2 is plenty

[grumpysaddle]

Ugh... Can't we just find a way to take both and be done with it? Move some assets for 2.

Doncic/Booker/Jackson/Bender or Chriss/Ayton would be awesome in a few years.

[thamadkant]

We’re judging guys based on high school now?

Out of context post from you.


The point was... Big men with his athleticism and size should be getting 5 plus blocks against 6'6 centers in high school.

I thinks it's attitude to shot blocking. Ayton has the body and athleticism but just doesn't care for it.

I don’t care what he did in high school. I don’t need him to care about high school. Dwight Howard only had two seasons above 2.5 per game. If I never got 2.5 per game out of Ayton, I wouldn’t care. 2 is plenty

I project Ayton to put up Cousins type numbers..

24 / 12 and 1.5 blocks

[8on]

Out of context post from you.


The point was... Big men with his athleticism and size should be getting 5 plus blocks against 6'6 centers in high school.

I thinks it's attitude to shot blocking. Ayton has the body and athleticism but just doesn't care for it.

I don’t care what he did in high school. I don’t need him to care about high school. Dwight Howard only had two seasons above 2.5 per game. If I never got 2.5 per game out of Ayton, I wouldn’t care. 2 is plenty

I project Ayton to put up Cousins type numbers..

24 / 12 and 1.5 blocks

Pre-injury Cousins is a great comparison. I’ll take that any day of the week.

[bwgood77]

I haven't said a thing about Capela. I don't expect him to be going anywhere and I have no expectation of him being a Sun. As for the draft, I'm just looking at who I think is going to be the best player.

Now, your points about shooting would be good except for the fact that AZ DID have pretty good 3 pt shooters. Trier shot 38%. PJC 42%, Awklins 36%. And the other starting big on limited attempts shot 40%. I mean those are better %s than he would have around him in Phx.

The 3 second rule will help though, except that being that the Suns don't have a lot of guys who can shoot I imagine Ayton will always have a second defender on him in our lineup as well if he's just hanging around down in the post.

But I guess maybe if Koko is running a lot of motion things would keep moving.

Trier, PJC, and Awklins pretty much all disappeared from the outside when it mattered, when playing outside of the Pac12 or and/or vs. better competition. Neither of them are pure shooters. They could only be described as streaky. Both Awklins and Trier work their game from the inside out, so if they're not getting to the hoop it's rare they will kickstart letting it rain from the outside.

Jut go check out that fat 11% 3-point shooting they turned in for the tournament game vs. Buffalo.

- 11.8% vs NC State
- 25% vs. SMU
- 17.6% vs. Purdue

It is strange that they really choked from the perimeter in those tourney. I guess they just faced better perimeter D or just choked, but overall the team wasn't really wasn't a bad 3 pt shooting team for the season. I mean Trier put up almost 5.6 attempts per game, Awlkins 4 and PJC 3.4.

[bwgood77]

Out of context post from you.


The point was... Big men with his athleticism and size should be getting 5 plus blocks against 6'6 centers in high school.

I thinks it's attitude to shot blocking. Ayton has the body and athleticism but just doesn't care for it.

I don’t care what he did in high school. I don’t need him to care about high school. Dwight Howard only had two seasons above 2.5 per game. If I never got 2.5 per game out of Ayton, I wouldn’t care. 2 is plenty

I project Ayton to put up Cousins type numbers..

24 / 12 and 1.5 blocks

In his prime? Next year?

[Jstock12]

Doncic is definitely a superior prospect to Ayton. People will realize this very soon.

[Revived]

Spoiler:

Read on Twitter

Yeah, I could post that Dan D'Antoni video again but if you are trying to run much through the post you are likely just getting further behind. As long as he can be a great finisher and just finish dunks mostly and become a defensive monster it would probably be good.

I just have no idea what we will do at PG. If we don't seriously address that position this off season I don't think we will be THAT much better because it's such a glaring ugly hole.

You don’t have much confidence in Ulis/Harrison or maybe Payton?

[bwgood77]

Spoiler:

Read on Twitter

Yeah, I could post that Dan D'Antoni video again but if you are trying to run much through the post you are likely just getting further behind. As long as he can be a great finisher and just finish dunks mostly and become a defensive monster it would probably be good.

I just have no idea what we will do at PG. If we don't seriously address that position this off season I don't think we will be THAT much better because it's such a glaring ugly hole.

You don’t have much confidence in Ulis/Harrison or maybe Payton?

You forgot about the guy who clearly thinks he's still a part of the team..

Read on Twitter

[bwgood77]

Doncic is definitely a superior prospect to Ayton. People will realize this very soon.

Everyone will probably realize it like one year from now.

[thamadkant]

I don’t care what he did in high school. I don’t need him to care about high school. Dwight Howard only had two seasons above 2.5 per game. If I never got 2.5 per game out of Ayton, I wouldn’t care. 2 is plenty

I project Ayton to put up Cousins type numbers..

24 / 12 and 1.5 blocks

In his prime? Next year?

Same production as Cousins from rookie year as well.. So maybe 15 and 8 assuming he plays 30 minutes as a rookie

[sleepyvato]

Ayton! Ayton! Ayton!

[enigmatics]

It is strange that they really choked from the perimeter in those tourney. I guess they just faced better perimeter D or just choked, but overall the team wasn't really wasn't a bad 3 pt shooting team for the season. I mean Trier put up almost 5.6 attempts per game, Awlkins 4 and PJC 3.4.

Their numbers were padded due to the Pac12.

Any UofA fan who watched them should legitimately be able to say they're not pure shooters.