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The Draft Thread: Ayton Vs Doncic 1

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Ayton vs Doncic, Who you picking?

Ayton all the way!
109
53%
Definitely Doncic!
98
47%
 
Total votes: 207

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Re: The Draft Thread: Ayton Vs Doncic 1 

Post#341 » by 8on » Sat May 19, 2018 8:41 pm

Villalobos wrote:
dantley4prez wrote:Let’s say Ayton turned out to be Amar’e. I’m sure his ceiling is much higher than that, but let’s say he became Amar’e.

Golden State can’t do ANYTHING about peak Amar’e. Iggy, Durant, Dray....I don’t think any of them could do anything about ‘08 Amar’e.


Just eat him alive on defense and score 140 points.


Ayton already has better range and a bigger frame. I can’t imagine Ayton not being better at defense.
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Re: The Draft Thread: Ayton Vs Doncic 1 

Post#342 » by Bob8 » Sat May 19, 2018 9:10 pm

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Re: The Draft Thread: Ayton Vs Doncic 1 

Post#343 » by bwoolf2 » Sat May 19, 2018 9:13 pm

stitches wrote:
bwoolf2 wrote:
stitches wrote:What game are you guys watching? Slow game? Bad play? You cannot be serious.

This is a very high quality game with great pace and spacing and some good shotmaking. Both those teams would wipe the floor the bottom feeders in the NBA and with pretty much any NCAA team.


Your kidding right, these teams would get swept in a series by any NBA team. If they would wipe the floor with NBA teams a lot more of these guys would be playing in the NBA.

The level of delusion is strong in this one... you are assuming the only reason players are not in the NBA is that they don't have the talent for it. This is not the case. You are also assuming that because they don't have the high end talent of the NBA they don't have the team play to compete.


Well then why are we trying to draft and sign the most talented players if we dont need them to compete, lets just get a bunch of decent players that try real hard. How has that worked in professional sports over the course of history?

Oh and your right all of the best players stay in Europe.... my bad
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Re: The Draft Thread: Ayton Vs Doncic 1 

Post#344 » by bigfoot » Sat May 19, 2018 10:18 pm



Still on the Doncic train. Booker (6-6), Jackson(6-8), and Doncic(6-8) have the skills to post up and abuse smaller guards. So many mismatches and quality assists that will come out of their post play.
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Re: The Draft Thread: Ayton Vs Doncic 1 

Post#345 » by JMac1 » Sat May 19, 2018 10:26 pm



Merry X Mas in May Suns’ fans

:D :o 8-) :lol: :clap: :droop: :rockon: :cuddle
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Re: The Draft Thread: Ayton Vs Doncic 1 

Post#346 » by bigfoot » Sat May 19, 2018 10:31 pm

bwoolf2 wrote:
stitches wrote:
bwoolf2 wrote:
Your kidding right, these teams would get swept in a series by any NBA team. If they would wipe the floor with NBA teams a lot more of these guys would be playing in the NBA.

The level of delusion is strong in this one... you are assuming the only reason players are not in the NBA is that they don't have the talent for it. This is not the case. You are also assuming that because they don't have the high end talent of the NBA they don't have the team play to compete.


Well then why are we trying to draft and sign the most talented players if we dont need them to compete, lets just get a bunch of decent players that try real hard. How has that worked in professional sports over the course of history?

Oh and your right all of the best players stay in Europe.... my bad


I think most Euroleague teams would destroy college teams. Really it wouldn't be close. Euroleague teams have beaten NBA teams in friendly contests. It's happening more often too.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_games_played_between_NBA_and_international_teams

A lot of Ayton supporters haven't even taken the time to look at Doncic and vice versa. We've got another 30+ days to sort it out but I think what Doncic will add on the offensive side of the game in a few years when he is a "grown" man at 250 and 6'8" with his BBIQ will far outweigh what Ayton can bring. I worry Ayton will be relegated to the bench because of small ball which is being played by current NBA playoff teams. Three point shooting analytics has killed the big man post game and I don't see Ayton bringing it back.
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Re: The Draft Thread: Ayton Vs Doncic 1 

Post#347 » by D3ko » Sat May 19, 2018 10:46 pm

TheFire wrote:Those on team Doncic (such as myself), what is your opinion on what we should do at the Center position assuming we draft Doncic at 1?

1. How realistic of a shot do we have at Capela? It seems almost inevitable that Houston matches any offer.
2. Would you drafts someone like Mitchell Robinson or Robert Williams at 16?
3. Do we wait and see what Kokoskov can do with Chriss/Bender and have one of them play the position?
4. Bring back Len (yuck)? or keep Chandler as the starter for the remainder of his contract (bigger yuck)?
5. There are some other interesting options such as Derick Favors who already has a rapport with Kokoskov


1 Capela is out of market, Houston will match any offer , Phoenix should put the max and wait .

2- yes I would do , I will look for a PF/C in the next two drafts, a player able to switch on defense, rebound well , shoot at least pick and pop. Someone like taj Gibson 10 years younger .

3- I still have faith in Bender, he will be your dray green , stretch 5 , glue guy, BBIQ player., but he is still so young, he is two years away of being a center, he has to play as a PF for now.
I believe that Chriss is a valuable player but I would trade him for a center vet player with a 3/4 years contract , robin lopez, Marc gasol to teach , put experience and winning presence .

4-I'm not sold on Len but I believe that he will flourish with Luka in the team , he can be the player than can be traded next year with higher value, or keep as Kanter role. How is the Len defence on p&r?

Chandler will be a wild card I will keep him as a role player to play 7/10 minutes and bring intensity and defense, and be a role model for the youngsters.

5- same as point 3, If you can get Favors in free agency (3/4 years deal ), you will save Chris's and wait for a better deal.
Chriss + favors is better than Marc gasol or robin lopez.


This is a 2 years window to be a contender playoff team , you have to find piece to improve the team with no cap space pressure.

In the bench you need a 3&D PG, a shooter Pg/SG, , a 3&D SF, hustle& rebound PF, rim protector C.

So yup I don't know what to do with Warren, I like him as a player, is a old school scorer, he has to upgrade his 3% .
I will keep him for now and see how are the next years with him on the team.

The core to championship has to be:
Doncic (PG,SG,SF)
Booker( PG/SG)
Jackson( as a SF/PF)
Bender( as a PF/C)

And pieces that fit in this line up depending on the match up.
A quick pg,a stretch 4, a hustle 5.
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Re: The Draft Thread: Ayton Vs Doncic 1 

Post#348 » by JMac1 » Sat May 19, 2018 11:04 pm

dantley4prez wrote:
Villalobos wrote:
dantley4prez wrote:Let’s say Ayton turned out to be Amar’e. I’m sure his ceiling is much higher than that, but let’s say he became Amar’e.

Golden State can’t do ANYTHING about peak Amar’e. Iggy, Durant, Dray....I don’t think any of them could do anything about ‘08 Amar’e.


Just eat him alive on defense and score 140 points.


Ayton already has better range and a bigger frame. I can’t imagine Ayton not being better at defense.


We got eaten alive on defense because of Tim Duncan. We had great wing defenders in Marion and Bell. Our problem was not having anyone to stop Timmy.
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Re: The Draft Thread: Ayton Vs Doncic 1 

Post#349 » by 8on » Sat May 19, 2018 11:07 pm

JMac1 wrote:
dantley4prez wrote:
Villalobos wrote:
Just eat him alive on defense and score 140 points.


Ayton already has better range and a bigger frame. I can’t imagine Ayton not being better at defense.


We got eaten alive on defense because of Tim Duncan. We had great wing defenders in Marion and Bell. Our problem was not having anyone to stop Timmy.


Golden State doesn’t have Timmy
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Re: The Draft Thread: Ayton Vs Doncic 1 

Post#350 » by JMac1 » Sat May 19, 2018 11:12 pm

dantley4prez wrote:
JMac1 wrote:
dantley4prez wrote:
Ayton already has better range and a bigger frame. I can’t imagine Ayton not being better at defense.


We got eaten alive on defense because of Tim Duncan. We had great wing defenders in Marion and Bell. Our problem was not having anyone to stop Timmy.


Golden State doesn’t have Timmy


Exactly! I always wanted to see a semi-traditional big who was athletic enough on defense to switch play against these midget teams, now we finally will. Playing “small ball” with 7’1 7’1 6’8 6’6 and whoever at PG is gonna be fun!!!
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Re: The Draft Thread: Ayton Vs Doncic 1 

Post#351 » by jcsunsfan » Sat May 19, 2018 11:13 pm

I am still greedy. I want Ayton and Doncic. Then all we need is a small guard who is a defensive specialist to come of the bench when we need it.
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Re: The Draft Thread: Ayton Vs Doncic 1 

Post#352 » by bwgood77 » Sun May 20, 2018 12:07 am

juanc wrote:I've taken my time to watch some more Ayton games and his offensive game reminds me a little of Embiid. I kinda think that his offensive ceiling is Embiid.



When looking at these highlights they really love those mid range shots and they both are crafty when they get the ball near the basket. But when it comes to defense, then there's a big difference. Yes, he has all the tools to be a great defender, but so does Embiid the difference is that Jo has those instincts that can't be taught.
Maybe he wasn't able to show his whole defensive repertoair becouse he was playing out of position, but on the other side maybe his rebounding numbers were a bit inflated becouse he was guarded by the opposite PF's(The only reason i've mentioned that is becouse some of you guys are sure that he will come to the league and immediately average a double-double).

When I look at the best C's in the league( 1. Davis, 2. Embiid, 3-5. KAT, Gobert, Jokić, 6. Horford,...) I just don't see him being better than Davis and Embiid. In the best case scenario I see him in the KAT, Gobert, Jokić tier( again this is just my opinion/ranking of the C position and where I see Ayton)

I have also watched some Bamba interviews and I was shocked. He seems like a very smart guy who has his head in the right place. I would appreciate if someone could share some recent Ayton interviews


If he's anywhere in a tier with any of those guys you list (particularly the top 5), that's a huge success. Those guys are all major impact players.
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Re: The Draft Thread: Ayton Vs Doncic 1 

Post#353 » by bwgood77 » Sun May 20, 2018 12:11 am

starbosa10 wrote:
jcsunsfan wrote:
ImNotMcDiSwear wrote:I hadn't seen this. I think I just fell in love.



I might need a third option on this survey, y'all.


I am a big fan of Bamba. I think he should be in the top 3 or 4 in this draft. I might take him before Bagley. Aside from his game, he is a remarkable, well-spoken young man. It takes a certain level of talent to ad lib that kind of thing. He has a future in broadcasting after his career, definitely.

If we had ended up with the 3 or 4 pick, I would have been thrilled to end up with Bamba. I think he is much closer than people think.

My dream scenario would be doncic and trading back up for bamba


Yeah, Doncic/Booker/JJ with Bamba up front? Bender stretching the floor? Sounds nice.
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Re: The Draft Thread: Ayton Vs Doncic 1 

Post#354 » by bwgood77 » Sun May 20, 2018 12:13 am

dantley4prez wrote:Let’s say Ayton turned out to be Amar’e. I’m sure his ceiling is much higher than that, but let’s say he became Amar’e.

Golden State can’t do ANYTHING about peak Amar’e. Iggy, Durant, Dray....I don’t think any of them could do anything about ‘08 Amar’e.

Look at Harden. Golden State can stop Harden. If that’s the best case scenario for Luka, give me Ayton.


Amare was much better when playing with Nash though. It's hard to know how good he'd have been playing with Shai Gilgeous Alexander or something.
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Re: The Draft Thread: Ayton Vs Doncic 1 

Post#355 » by Bob8 » Sun May 20, 2018 12:23 am

bwgood77 wrote:
starbosa10 wrote:
jcsunsfan wrote:
I am a big fan of Bamba. I think he should be in the top 3 or 4 in this draft. I might take him before Bagley. Aside from his game, he is a remarkable, well-spoken young man. It takes a certain level of talent to ad lib that kind of thing. He has a future in broadcasting after his career, definitely.

If we had ended up with the 3 or 4 pick, I would have been thrilled to end up with Bamba. I think he is much closer than people think.

My dream scenario would be doncic and trading back up for bamba


Yeah, Doncic/Booker/JJ with Bamba up front? Bender stretching the floor? Sounds nice.


Bender is not the player you hope to be and I'm afraid he will never be. He just doesn't have IT. I rember him in Maccabi. He was under Vujacic's arms and Vujacic was calling all the shots in Maccabi. They gave him many chances, something totally unusual in Europe. But he was that bad, that they have to put him in B team. He shouldn't be drafted that high. He's just opposite to Doncic. Doncic wants the ball no matter what, he's full of energy, will to play, to succeed and win. Bender just doesn't want that much. You should trade him as early as possible.
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Re: The Draft Thread: Ayton Vs Doncic 1 

Post#356 » by 8on » Sun May 20, 2018 12:24 am

bwgood77 wrote:
dantley4prez wrote:Let’s say Ayton turned out to be Amar’e. I’m sure his ceiling is much higher than that, but let’s say he became Amar’e.

Golden State can’t do ANYTHING about peak Amar’e. Iggy, Durant, Dray....I don’t think any of them could do anything about ‘08 Amar’e.

Look at Harden. Golden State can stop Harden. If that’s the best case scenario for Luka, give me Ayton.


Amare was much better when playing with Nash though. It's hard to know how good he'd have been playing with Shai Gilgeous Alexander or something.


Aaron Holiday, hopefully at 31
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Re: The Draft Thread: Ayton Vs Doncic 1 

Post#357 » by bwgood77 » Sun May 20, 2018 12:33 am

bigfoot wrote:
bwoolf2 wrote:
stitches wrote:The level of delusion is strong in this one... you are assuming the only reason players are not in the NBA is that they don't have the talent for it. This is not the case. You are also assuming that because they don't have the high end talent of the NBA they don't have the team play to compete.


Well then why are we trying to draft and sign the most talented players if we dont need them to compete, lets just get a bunch of decent players that try real hard. How has that worked in professional sports over the course of history?

Oh and your right all of the best players stay in Europe.... my bad


I think most Euroleague teams would destroy college teams. Really it wouldn't be close. Euroleague teams have beaten NBA teams in friendly contests. It's happening more often too.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_games_played_between_NBA_and_international_teams

A lot of Ayton supporters haven't even taken the time to look at Doncic and vice versa. We've got another 30+ days to sort it out but I think what Doncic will add on the offensive side of the game in a few years when he is a "grown" man at 250 and 6'8" with his BBIQ will far outweigh what Ayton can bring. I worry Ayton will be relegated to the bench because of small ball which is being played by current NBA playoff teams. Three point shooting analytics has killed the big man post game and I don't see Ayton bringing it back.


If Ayton can shoot at 60%+ TS%, the offense he brings, no matter where it comes from, will be a huge positive. He was like 65% in college. It will be much tougher for him obviously in the NBA because defenders will bring it and he isn't real physical yet. But I think he'll be fine offensively and likely very good with the ball....off ball and screening and that stuff definitely needs work.

The thing that could prevent him from being an all around elite player is the fire he plays with, when he's not going for a rebound or dunk. That can wane a great deal.

And then on the defensive end, the pick n roll defense is bad, he doesn't close out on shooters, and he generally gets confused a lot, so I don't know what to expect as far as his development goes from that.

Doncic, on the other hand, plays with much more toughness, with the great IQ and fire, and his motor never stops on either side. People mention his defense, but he is a pretty smart team defender and can guard at least 2-3 positions right now, and maybe up to 4 eventually. Obviously Ayton won't be able to do that though he can be decent defending smaller guys for small stretches on switches on occasion with his foot speed but teams also exploited him with that on occasion and he'd lose those guys or even if he kind of stayed with them, they'd still just take it to the rim and finish, so that could happen more in the NBA.

I do wonder what James Jones thinks about it all, having played with LeBron...probably the highest IQ in the game...and basically a 6'8, 250 lb point forward. Obviously there are many parallels with the type of player Doncic is. Picking apart the other team with your IQ and passing, scoring, getting to the line, hitting shots, etc, and willing your team to win.
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Re: The Draft Thread: Ayton Vs Doncic 1 

Post#358 » by bwgood77 » Sun May 20, 2018 12:35 am

Bob8 wrote:
bwgood77 wrote:
starbosa10 wrote:My dream scenario would be doncic and trading back up for bamba


Yeah, Doncic/Booker/JJ with Bamba up front? Bender stretching the floor? Sounds nice.


Bender is not the player you hope to be and I'm afraid he will never be. He just doesn't have IT. I rember him in Maccabi. He was under Vujacic's arms and Vujacic was calling all the shots in Maccabi. They gave him many chances, something totally unusual in Europe. But he was that bad, that they have to put him in B team. He shouldn't be drafted that high. He's just opposite to Doncic. Doncic wants the ball no matter what, he's full of energy, will to play, to succeed and win. Bender just doesn't want that much. You should trade him as early as possible.


We will see what our coach can get our of him. Same with Chriss. I didn't mention TJ. But the good thing about Bender, if he was to play with a guy like Bamba, is that he can stretch the floor. At least he can hit the 3 and is a decent passer and defender. I imagine he will improve in everything under Kokoskov.
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Re: The Draft Thread: Ayton Vs Doncic 1 

Post#359 » by Bob8 » Sun May 20, 2018 12:47 am

bwgood77 wrote:
Bob8 wrote:
bwgood77 wrote:
Yeah, Doncic/Booker/JJ with Bamba up front? Bender stretching the floor? Sounds nice.


Bender is not the player you hope to be and I'm afraid he will never be. He just doesn't have IT. I rember him in Maccabi. He was under Vujacic's arms and Vujacic was calling all the shots in Maccabi. They gave him many chances, something totally unusual in Europe. But he was that bad, that they have to put him in B team. He shouldn't be drafted that high. He's just opposite to Doncic. Doncic wants the ball no matter what, he's full of energy, will to play, to succeed and win. Bender just doesn't want that much. You should trade him as early as possible.


We will see what our coach can get our of him. Same with Chriss. I didn't mention TJ. But the good thing about Bender, if he was to play with a guy like Bamba, is that he can stretch the floor. At least he can hit the 3 and is a decent passer and defender. I imagine he will improve in everything under Kokoskov.


It's difficult to explain. On paper Bender should become better, but he just doesn't have willingness, determination to succeed. Kokoskov is good coach, but he can't do miracles. Bender was just a mistake. It happens.
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Re: The Draft Thread: Ayton Vs Doncic 1 

Post#360 » by Villalobos » Sun May 20, 2018 12:49 am

Bob8 wrote:
bwgood77 wrote:
starbosa10 wrote:My dream scenario would be doncic and trading back up for bamba


Yeah, Doncic/Booker/JJ with Bamba up front? Bender stretching the floor? Sounds nice.


Bender is not the player you hope to be and I'm afraid he will never be. He just doesn't have IT. I rember him in Maccabi. He was under Vujacic's arms and Vujacic was calling all the shots in Maccabi. They gave him many chances, something totally unusual in Europe. But he was that bad, that they have to put him in B team. He shouldn't be drafted that high. He's just opposite to Doncic. Doncic wants the ball no matter what, he's full of energy, will to play, to succeed and win. Bender just doesn't want that much. You should trade him as early as possible.


He said stretch the floor. Literally no one is comparing him to Doncic. :roll:

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