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Booker Discussion, news and highlights

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Where would you rank last year's Booker on the 2004-05 team?

Best player
11
11%
2nd best
20
19%
3rd best
37
36%
4th best
25
24%
5th best
10
10%
 
Total votes: 103

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Re: Booker Discussion, news and highlights 

Post#1101 » by bwgood77 » Tue Mar 22, 2022 10:28 pm

oddity wrote:
bwgood77 wrote:
I think Booker is a bit better but it really depends on what you need/value too. Most feel that going to the rim and shooting 3s are the best shots in basketball. Book is great in the mid range and Paul is exceptional from there so it's a nice weapon especially when the defense is giving to you but it might not be what the coach wants you to do at all. Most coaches don't want their players to take those shots and will willingly give up mid range shots as long as they don't allow a lot of 3s or people getting to the rim.

I agree that Booker has become a better defender. He's good when engaged at 1 on 1 and has become good at playing the passing lanes, even if he might gamble for steals a bit much.

I was mostly talking about who I felt was worthy of all NBA for those last spots. I think LaVine is a little better than Mitchell this year.

I think Mitch has been better than Lavine too. Dude can score but doesn't create and lead at the level of Book or D Mitch.
Also I gotta ask why you feel the need to delineate between CP3 and Book as midrange shooters. Why is Booker only "great" but Paul is "exceptional" - they both seem like exceptional mid-range shooters to me.


Yeah, Mitchell and LaVine it just depends on the criteria, though i do think LaVine is good playmaker, though his assists have been down with two other playmakers in Ball and DeRozan (somewhat similar. With Ball out they've been up some, like 9 and 6 in his last two. Kind of similar to how Book's assists fell off when Paul came, from 6.5 to 4.3

The reason I had distinguished between Book and Paul was just from looking at #s. 3-10 ft Book is 46%, 10-16, 47%, and 16+ to 3, 47.5% Paul is 52%, 57.7% and 49%, respectvely in thos same categories. Last year Paul was 55.4%, 50.4% and 52.7%.

Last year Book was a little better from the short-mid and mid, at 48% and 53%, but a little lower from long-mid range at 43.4%.

Across the NBA though, I imagine Booker would fit into the exceptional range, but Paul's #s are just crazy good from those ranges.

Book a lot better from 3 this year though after Paul being a lot better last year.

Ayton has really been exceptional from mid range though this year. 63% 3-10 ft, 52.5% 10-16 ft, and 47% from 16 ft-3pt range.
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Re: Booker Discussion, news and highlights 

Post#1102 » by bwgood77 » Tue Mar 22, 2022 10:32 pm

lilfishi22 wrote:
Revived wrote:Image

Lowest = Best

I got confused reading this at first


Yeah, I was trying to figure out where that came from when they mentioned that on tv the other night...and checked nba.com, b-ref, RAPTOR, etc, since even on our team he ranks near the bottom. I finally figured out it comes from Statmuse, so not sure of the criteria for them. I tried looking but couldn't find it.

I did see somewhere though that he is about league avg at perimter defense but in post defense and contesting shots near the rim he is in the upper percentiles.

A lot (or most) of the DRTG and ORTG are pretty much in line with your team's ORTG or DRTG, so all our players do better on the team based ones since our team collectively has a great DRTG.
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Re: Booker Discussion, news and highlights 

Post#1103 » by lilfishi22 » Tue Mar 22, 2022 10:42 pm

I don't watch as much of other teams as I used to (time constraints) but while I do think Booker has greatly improved on that end, I hesitate to call him the best defender at the 2. But when I think about the two other top SG's in the league, Mitchell and Lavine, both are clearly a few notches worse. Maybe it is a bit of a weak class for defenders at the SG position, especially when we're talking about the top guys at their position.

Klay is no longer the defender he once was, Jimmy is more of a wing than a guard these days, Thybulle is a wing. Jrue is a PG/SG so I'd probably have him over Book from a defensive standpoint but not by much especially when you consider Book's size and length advantage to defend in the post. I think I'd take Smart over Book too defensively.
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Re: Booker Discussion, news and highlights 

Post#1104 » by bwgood77 » Tue Mar 22, 2022 10:48 pm

lilfishi22 wrote:I don't watch as much of other teams as I used to (time constraints) but while I do think Booker has greatly improved on that end, I hesitate to call him the best defender at the 2. But when I think about the two other top SG's in the league, Mitchell and Lavine, both are clearly a few notches worse. Maybe it is a bit of a weak class for defenders at the SG position, especially when we're talking about the top guys at their position.

Klay is no longer the defender he once was, Jimmy is more of a wing than a guard these days, Thybulle is a wing. Jrue is a PG/SG so I'd probably have him over Book from a defensive standpoint but not by much especially when you consider Book's size and length advantage to defend in the post. I think I'd take Smart over Book too defensively.


Yeah, I was just thinking the same. There are not really too many good defensive starters at the 2 at least that I can think of. Smart and Jrue did come to mind but of course, as you said, they basically both play PG at this point. You could say someone like Melton plays the 2, but I don't think he starts anymore. Not sure how good Brooks is. I thought fairly solid but I don't watch them a lot. They are a very solid collective defense though. Sometimes Paul George is referred to as a 2 but he's really more of a wing it seems even if he plays 2. Then you have some backups like you mention Thybulle, and then Caruso, and I think KCP is a pretty good defender but I don't watch any of those guys much.

Booker is much improved. The main thing is he puts in effort most of the time and he's generally just learned things on that side, probably mostly benefiting from playing and talking with Chris Paul.
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Re: Booker Discussion, news and highlights 

Post#1105 » by Saberestar » Tue Mar 22, 2022 10:51 pm

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Re: Booker Discussion, news and highlights 

Post#1106 » by lilfishi22 » Tue Mar 22, 2022 10:56 pm

bwgood77 wrote:
lilfishi22 wrote:I don't watch as much of other teams as I used to (time constraints) but while I do think Booker has greatly improved on that end, I hesitate to call him the best defender at the 2. But when I think about the two other top SG's in the league, Mitchell and Lavine, both are clearly a few notches worse. Maybe it is a bit of a weak class for defenders at the SG position, especially when we're talking about the top guys at their position.

Klay is no longer the defender he once was, Jimmy is more of a wing than a guard these days, Thybulle is a wing. Jrue is a PG/SG so I'd probably have him over Book from a defensive standpoint but not by much especially when you consider Book's size and length advantage to defend in the post. I think I'd take Smart over Book too defensively.


Yeah, I was just thinking the same. There are not really too many good defensive starters at the 2 at least that I can think of. Smart and Jrue did come to mind but of course, as you said, they basically both play PG at this point. You could say someone like Melton plays the 2, but I don't think he starts anymore. Not sure how good Brooks is. I thought fairly solid but I don't watch them a lot. They are a very solid collective defense though. Sometimes Paul George is referred to as a 2 but he's really more of a wing it seems even if he plays 2. Then you have some backups like you mention Thybulle, and then Caruso, and I think KCP is a pretty good defender but I don't watch any of those guys much.

Booker is much improved. The main thing is he puts in effort most of the time and he's generally just learned things on that side, probably mostly benefiting from playing and talking with Chris Paul.

Looking back there aren't that many elite SG's who were also elite defenders. And by elite, I mean they have been voted into both All-NBA and All-Defensive teams a number of times. Kobe is really the only SG during most of his career where he was always in those teams, although the last few were probably based on reputation rather than actual defensive abilities. The other guy is Wade although he never got an all-defensive 1st team selection. More recently, Jimmy and Klay were the other guys. For Book to make an all-defensive 2nd team would be super impressive
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Re: Booker Discussion, news and highlights 

Post#1107 » by suns12345 » Tue Mar 22, 2022 11:32 pm

Saberestar wrote:
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He's a tier below Embiid and Jokic - the counting stats they're putting up are too much.

That said, he should be right there after them. It is true the name changes the criteria
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Re: Booker Discussion, news and highlights 

Post#1108 » by Saberestar » Wed Mar 23, 2022 8:16 pm

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With the love that he usually shows to Book and Mikal I wouldn't be surprised if he wants to play for us after his current contract with the Blazers.
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Re: Booker Discussion, news and highlights 

Post#1109 » by Revived » Wed Mar 23, 2022 8:24 pm

If he wasn’t such an atrocious defender, I’d have loved to see Lillard come here after CP3 retires.

But taking defense into account as well, we may better off with Payne since we don’t need a high volume scorer at the PG spot.
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Re: Booker Discussion, news and highlights 

Post#1110 » by dremill24 » Wed Mar 23, 2022 9:11 pm

Revived wrote:If he wasn’t such an atrocious defender, I’d have loved to see Lillard come here after CP3 retires.

But taking defense into account as well, we may better off with Payne since we don’t need a high volume scorer at the PG spot.


Im not really seeing how Payne is a defensive upgrade over Lillard. Dame would likely put in more effort in our system and doesnt have nearly the physical limitations Payne does. Payne is scrappy and energetic, which is helpful, but gets trucked due to his size quite frequently, and its not like he's containing dribble penetration with lockdown isolation defense.
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Re: Booker Discussion, news and highlights 

Post#1111 » by cberry78 » Wed Mar 23, 2022 9:39 pm

Revived wrote:If he wasn’t such an atrocious defender, I’d have loved to see Lillard come here after CP3 retires.

But taking defense into account as well, we may better off with Payne since we don’t need a high volume scorer at the PG spot.

How much of Lillard's bad defense is because he's always been essentially the only option for Portland? Book was seen as a turnstile in PHX before he was surrounded by competent NBA players - could Lillard be in the same mold, defensive potential-wise, as Book?
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Re: Booker Discussion, news and highlights 

Post#1112 » by bwgood77 » Wed Mar 23, 2022 10:20 pm

We won't be able to afford Lillard unless we trade away another couple big pieces. I am not sure with our roster a score first PG is the best fit either. Obviously the more great players the better.

But he has 3 more years at $42, $45 and $48 million. If we did trade, just to match salaries it would probably have to be a max Ayton and Cam Johnson or something.

Payne obviously isn't better but I think him at $10 million is probably better than Lillard at $50 million.
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Re: Booker Discussion, news and highlights 

Post#1113 » by Saberestar » Wed Mar 23, 2022 10:40 pm

bwgood77 wrote:We won't be able to afford Lillard unless we trade away another couple big pieces. I am not sure with our roster a score first PG is the best fit either. Obviously the more great players the better.

But he has 3 more years at $42, $45 and $48 million. If we did trade, just to match salaries it would probably have to be a max Ayton and Cam Johnson or something.

Payne obviously isn't better but I think him at $10 million is probably better than Lillard at $50 million.

I wasn't talking about trading for him. CP3 ends his contract with the Suns at the same time that Lillard ends his current contract with the Blazers or where he gets traded.

At that moment he probably will be a nice option for us as a FA but who knows how good he will be that point of his career.
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Re: Booker Discussion, news and highlights 

Post#1114 » by bwgood77 » Thu Mar 24, 2022 2:24 am

Saberestar wrote:
bwgood77 wrote:We won't be able to afford Lillard unless we trade away another couple big pieces. I am not sure with our roster a score first PG is the best fit either. Obviously the more great players the better.

But he has 3 more years at $42, $45 and $48 million. If we did trade, just to match salaries it would probably have to be a max Ayton and Cam Johnson or something.

Payne obviously isn't better but I think him at $10 million is probably better than Lillard at $50 million.

I wasn't talking about trading for him. CP3 ends his contract with the Suns at the same time that Lillard ends his current contract with the Blazers or where he gets traded.

At that moment he probably will be a nice option for us as a FA but who knows how good he will be that point of his career.


Yeah, I figured you meant then, but I just mentioned the 3 more years because it's a ways off and we likely have a new starter by then. We can't afford to pay our next PG CP3 money given the fact we were able to pay Paul a couple of his years before Ayton and Bridges new contracts and 3 years before Cam's new one. When they are all making more, we won't have any cap space for an expensive PG, unless we trade some of those guys for one.
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Re: Booker Discussion, news and highlights 

Post#1115 » by Revived » Thu Mar 24, 2022 1:07 pm

bwgood77 wrote:
Saberestar wrote:
bwgood77 wrote:We won't be able to afford Lillard unless we trade away another couple big pieces. I am not sure with our roster a score first PG is the best fit either. Obviously the more great players the better.

But he has 3 more years at $42, $45 and $48 million. If we did trade, just to match salaries it would probably have to be a max Ayton and Cam Johnson or something.

Payne obviously isn't better but I think him at $10 million is probably better than Lillard at $50 million.

I wasn't talking about trading for him. CP3 ends his contract with the Suns at the same time that Lillard ends his current contract with the Blazers or where he gets traded.

At that moment he probably will be a nice option for us as a FA but who knows how good he will be that point of his career.


Yeah, I figured you meant then, but I just mentioned the 3 more years because it's a ways off and we likely have a new starter by then. We can't afford to pay our next PG CP3 money given the fact we were able to pay Paul a couple of his years before Ayton and Bridges new contracts and 3 years before Cam's new one. When they are all making more, we won't have any cap space for an expensive PG, unless we trade some of those guys for one.

Ideally, we could find a floor general type PG in the draft within the next 2 years. Of course a lot easier said than done.
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Re: Booker Discussion, news and highlights 

Post#1116 » by Qwigglez » Thu Mar 24, 2022 3:36 pm

It’s been five years guys…

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Re: Booker Discussion, news and highlights 

Post#1117 » by bwgood77 » Thu Mar 24, 2022 3:47 pm

Revived wrote:
bwgood77 wrote:
Saberestar wrote:I wasn't talking about trading for him. CP3 ends his contract with the Suns at the same time that Lillard ends his current contract with the Blazers or where he gets traded.

At that moment he probably will be a nice option for us as a FA but who knows how good he will be that point of his career.


Yeah, I figured you meant then, but I just mentioned the 3 more years because it's a ways off and we likely have a new starter by then. We can't afford to pay our next PG CP3 money given the fact we were able to pay Paul a couple of his years before Ayton and Bridges new contracts and 3 years before Cam's new one. When they are all making more, we won't have any cap space for an expensive PG, unless we trade some of those guys for one.

Ideally, we could find a floor general type PG in the draft within the next 2 years. Of course a lot easier said than done.


That had been my hope but we've gotten rid of our last two and next pick. And we will have all our starters and maybe key reserves in their prime (late 20s) so likely won't go for some more raw starting PG. I think/hope eventually we start using our picks and spending time developing them so we can have very solid promising players on rookie style contracts (much how we developed our current core).
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Re: Booker Discussion, news and highlights 

Post#1118 » by Revived » Thu Mar 24, 2022 8:24 pm

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Re: Booker Discussion, news and highlights 

Post#1119 » by lilfishi22 » Thu Mar 24, 2022 10:38 pm

I've mentioned this before but the reason he doesn't get MVP love is because it would require the media to admit they wrong by writing off Booker early on in his career as an empty bucket, not a winner etc. It's orders of magnitude easier to vote for Jokic, Embiid or Giannis (safe choices) or whoever is the new hot thing to bandwagon than to come back around and admit what they said about early career Book was premature and wrong.
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Re: Booker Discussion, news and highlights 

Post#1120 » by bwgood77 » Thu Mar 24, 2022 11:36 pm

lilfishi22 wrote:I've mentioned this before but the reason he doesn't get MVP love is because it would require the media to admit they wrong by writing off Booker early on in his career as an empty bucket, not a winner etc. It's orders of magnitude easier to vote for Jokic, Embiid or Giannis (safe choices) or whoever is the new hot thing to bandwagon than to come back around and admit what they said about early career Book was premature and wrong.


It is in part to CP3 being 3rd or 4th or 5th on lists most of the year. If we had this record without CP3 all year, I think Booker definitely should be in the running for MVP. But with both playing bigger roles, and CP3 still having more win shares than Book despite playing in fewer games (Mikal has more too and Ayton in even fewer games) and if you look at WS/48, he ranks lower.

I know that is obviously just a stat based way to look at it and Book is our unquestioned best player and leader when CP3 is out, but the 3 guys at the top of the MVP race are basically largely carrying their teams to top records. Giannis has more help but the two Cs are having incredible MVP seasons and I think without them their teams would be FAR worse.

The problem is we have like 2 top 15 players while the rest of those teams have like 1 top 3-7 players. Ja is the interesting one to look at since they have the 2nd best record and he is their 1 true star while we are the 1st team with 2 true stars.

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