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2018 Free Agency and Trade Discussion continued

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Re: 2018 Free Agency and Trade Discussion continued 

Post#341 » by LukasBMW » Wed Jul 11, 2018 6:24 pm

jcsunsfan wrote:
PhxLax wrote:
Frank Lee wrote:Seems our biggest weakness/need is at PF, assuming we overlook the huge pg question mark that is Brandon Knight.

Right now, we have PF by committee, with the main board members being SFs. I’m guessing we see what and if Chriss and Bender can contribute as we forge ahead with our not so powerful SFs getting the important minutes.

I’ll bet McDeal is working on improving PF position, as he has already placed a 15 mill bandaid on it thus far. Mid Season move coming up ?


Fully agree. The whole Ariza thing was knee-jerk signing at the spur of the moment. There's no effing way they gonna be successful or try to build any consistency/progress if they gonna roll out skinny Jackson and skinny Ariza as your forwards.

I happen to think SOMETHING gonna happen in the next 60 days w/ regards to Dudley-Warren-Chandler-Bender-Chriss. We need clarity and I would love to have a legit PF on this team. Not a superstar taking away cap space, but a legit somewhat young PF that is a starter next to Ayton.


Totally disagree about Ariza being a spur of the moment signing. When you call a guy immediately upon the free agent market opening and offer him that kind of contract--that was a very deliberate plan. There were lots of other free agents they could have gone after and Ariza is the one they called immediately and they made him an offer they knew he would accept. I can see how some fans might disagree with Ariza being an effective PF, but it is clear that the Suns think he can be and that they did their own research to come to that conclusion.


Coach wanted Ariza and the rumor is he likes Knight.

I think McDonough realized that the big name guys were not coming here and he was smart enough not to try to max a RFA like Smart/Gordon/LaVine, so he punted until next year and used the opportunity to make coach happy with Ariza.

I think McDonough also realized that he may as well showcase Knight and either get him to fit, or boost his value enough to trade him.

I'm kinda surprised we didn't pay Payton the MLE as insurance...must have been some behind the scenes stuff with him we don't know about. Poor work ethic? Poor hygiene? Both? :lol:
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Re: 2018 Free Agency and Trade Discussion continued 

Post#342 » by ImNotMcDiSwear » Wed Jul 11, 2018 6:28 pm

bwgood77 wrote:
jcsunsfan wrote:
bwgood77 wrote:
If we stretch Knight, we could add $9 million or so to the cap space, minus whatever the cap hold would be on our first rounder.


If we are interested in making a deal right now, one of the hidden considerations in trading one or both of the first rounders we could have next year is the cap hold that they will command. If both are mid firsts, they could command $8 million or more in a cap hold. This might be the year to convert those, along with a tradeable asset like Warren for a real quality piece.

Say we trade Warren (not that I really want to dump him, he just seems the most logical moveable piece) and both first round picks next year for a really good pg. If we stretch Knight, potentially that could give us as much as $36 million in cap money, depending on how much salary and how long the commitment is that comes back in trade.


The Bucks pick has a good chance of being protected again, and who knows where our's would be. I wouldn't trade our first rounder next year, not with the new lottery system, and the top 4 being drawn and better odds for those without the very worst records.

There are a bunch of teams with cap space so we can't assume we will sign a big name. We could always decline options on Chriss or Bender to create more, and Shaq and Reed as well (though they make so little they would be worth keeping if they add value to the team).

I think we need to keep our picks and rookie contracts since we hopefully have some guys on our roster now that will command big second contracts. We will need those smaller cost controlled contracts to keep coming in.


I always wonder whether we'll be interested in deferring FRPs via trade. We have yet to do that. But looking at our roster, it's really hard to spot the position at which we're lacking for young talent. Deferring the FRPs would not only allow us to increase cap space, but it would also preserve trade value (most picks don't actually hit, and picks themselves are the league's most liquid assets) and, if we eventually do make the selection, we'd be adding those cheap contracts later, when they'd be more clearly needed.

Where we are in terms of the quality of our young talent is hopefully resolved to the upside this season. I'd much rather have JJ pan out than have to go chasing after Jimmy Butler and Kyrie.
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Re: 2018 Free Agency and Trade Discussion continued 

Post#343 » by ImNotMcDiSwear » Wed Jul 11, 2018 6:31 pm

LukasBMW wrote:
jcsunsfan wrote:
PhxLax wrote:
Fully agree. The whole Ariza thing was knee-jerk signing at the spur of the moment. There's no effing way they gonna be successful or try to build any consistency/progress if they gonna roll out skinny Jackson and skinny Ariza as your forwards.

I happen to think SOMETHING gonna happen in the next 60 days w/ regards to Dudley-Warren-Chandler-Bender-Chriss. We need clarity and I would love to have a legit PF on this team. Not a superstar taking away cap space, but a legit somewhat young PF that is a starter next to Ayton.


Totally disagree about Ariza being a spur of the moment signing. When you call a guy immediately upon the free agent market opening and offer him that kind of contract--that was a very deliberate plan. There were lots of other free agents they could have gone after and Ariza is the one they called immediately and they made him an offer they knew he would accept. I can see how some fans might disagree with Ariza being an effective PF, but it is clear that the Suns think he can be and that they did their own research to come to that conclusion.


Coach wanted Ariza and the rumor is he likes Knight.

I think McDonough realized that the big name guys were not coming here and he was smart enough not to try to max a RFA like Smart/Gordon/LaVine, so he punted until next year and used the opportunity to make coach happy with Ariza.

I think McDonough also realized that he may as well showcase Knight and either get him to fit, or boost his value enough to trade him.

I'm kinda surprised we didn't pay Payton the MLE as insurance...must have been some behind the scenes stuff with him we don't know about. Poor work ethic? Poor hygiene? Both? :lol:


Pretty sure that "insurance" sucks. Canaan is de facto insurance, though not under contract, considering he's hanging with our guys, played better last season, and is receiving free personal training and attention at our facilities.
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Re: 2018 Free Agency and Trade Discussion continued 

Post#344 » by BobbieL » Wed Jul 11, 2018 6:57 pm

I think Jordan Schultz and Ross(Legion of Hoops) get the same information or just guess so they are like a broken clock but if Riley can get Presti to take two of these players: James Johnson, Waiters, Tyler Johnson, Richardson, Dragic, Olynyk as Whiteside makes no sense with Adams - he stars to clears cap space for next summer.

And who knows if Riley wants a second deal - maybe something like Dniels and Chandler for Dragic - one can wish!

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Re: 2018 Free Agency and Trade Discussion continued 

Post#345 » by MathiasPW » Wed Jul 11, 2018 6:59 pm

If we enter the season with Knight as starting PG, we are doomed to fail.

I don't care how lessened his playmaking role will be because of a ball moving system, it will still go through his hands a lot, even for short spurts, and Knight is a terrible - and I mean REALLY TERRIBLE - decision-maker, on both ends of the floor. He will kill ball movement and get the defense exposed.

I can even buy the speech that he sees basketball differently after sitting for almost two years. Doesn't mean he will suddenly step on the court and make quick, solid decisions. His brain doesn't work well in such a fast environment.

I rather start Shaq and hope he can hit 3's at a 30% clip.
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Re: 2018 Free Agency and Trade Discussion continued 

Post#346 » by bwgood77 » Wed Jul 11, 2018 7:20 pm

ImNotMcDiSwear wrote:
bwgood77 wrote:
jcsunsfan wrote:
If we are interested in making a deal right now, one of the hidden considerations in trading one or both of the first rounders we could have next year is the cap hold that they will command. If both are mid firsts, they could command $8 million or more in a cap hold. This might be the year to convert those, along with a tradeable asset like Warren for a real quality piece.

Say we trade Warren (not that I really want to dump him, he just seems the most logical moveable piece) and both first round picks next year for a really good pg. If we stretch Knight, potentially that could give us as much as $36 million in cap money, depending on how much salary and how long the commitment is that comes back in trade.


The Bucks pick has a good chance of being protected again, and who knows where our's would be. I wouldn't trade our first rounder next year, not with the new lottery system, and the top 4 being drawn and better odds for those without the very worst records.

There are a bunch of teams with cap space so we can't assume we will sign a big name. We could always decline options on Chriss or Bender to create more, and Shaq and Reed as well (though they make so little they would be worth keeping if they add value to the team).

I think we need to keep our picks and rookie contracts since we hopefully have some guys on our roster now that will command big second contracts. We will need those smaller cost controlled contracts to keep coming in.


I always wonder whether we'll be interested in deferring FRPs via trade. We have yet to do that. But looking at our roster, it's really hard to spot the position at which we're lacking for young talent. Deferring the FRPs would not only allow us to increase cap space, but it would also preserve trade value (most picks don't actually hit, and picks themselves are the league's most liquid assets) and, if we eventually do make the selection, we'd be adding those cheap contracts later, when they'd be more clearly needed.

Where we are in terms of the quality of our young talent is hopefully resolved to the upside this season. I'd much rather have JJ pan out than have to go chasing after Jimmy Butler and Kyrie.


I wouldn't start trading first round picks until you know you are clearly out of the lottery, and even then, I probably wouldn't do so. We've traded them when we had good picks in the past to teams that were not very good, only to end up with a much worse pick (I think we traded the Deng pick for a future first that ended up being at least 10 spots lower and was used on Nate Robinson, though we traded that too).
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Re: 2018 Free Agency and Trade Discussion continued 

Post#347 » by BobbieL » Wed Jul 11, 2018 7:23 pm

MathiasPW wrote:If we enter the season with Knight as starting PG, we are doomed to fail.

I don't care how lessened his playmaking role will be because of a ball moving system, it will still go through his hands a lot, even for short spurts, and Knight is a terrible - and I mean REALLY TERRIBLE - decision-maker, on both ends of the floor. He will kill ball movement and get the defense exposed.

I can even buy the speech that he sees basketball differently after sitting for almost two years. Doesn't mean he will suddenly step on the court and make quick, solid decisions. His brain doesn't work well in such a fast environment.

I rather start Shaq and hope he can hit 3's at a 30% clip.


I think the Suns are saying the right things about Knight but I still think the Suns have a couple moves left in them. Before that, I think Reed and Shaq will be on the roster. They have showed a lot. Much more versatile than a guy like Daniels

I can see Teodosic signed with the 4.4m exception as a backup - at worst
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Re: 2018 Free Agency and Trade Discussion continued 

Post#348 » by denial » Wed Jul 11, 2018 7:34 pm

LukasBMW wrote:I'm kinda surprised we didn't pay Payton the MLE as insurance...must have been some behind the scenes stuff with him we don't know about. Poor work ethic? Poor hygiene? Both? :lol:


Playing in the NBA is as much about being really talented as it is about your marketing of yourself. I seriously think the hair hurt his value.
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Re: 2018 Free Agency and Trade Discussion continued 

Post#349 » by denial » Wed Jul 11, 2018 7:36 pm

MathiasPW wrote:If we enter the season with Knight as starting PG, we are doomed to fail.

I don't care how lessened his playmaking role will be because of a ball moving system, it will still go through his hands a lot, even for short spurts, and Knight is a terrible - and I mean REALLY TERRIBLE - decision-maker, on both ends of the floor. He will kill ball movement and get the defense exposed.

I can even buy the speech that he sees basketball differently after sitting for almost two years. Doesn't mean he will suddenly step on the court and make quick, solid decisions. His brain doesn't work well in such a fast environment.

I rather start Shaq and hope he can hit 3's at a 30% clip.


I am hoping that Knight's issues were system related. I am not saying they were. I am just hoping. We literally had the worst offensive scheme in the league when he was playing (E Watson or Horny was his coach... either way awful)
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Re: 2018 Free Agency and Trade Discussion continued 

Post#350 » by BobbieL » Wed Jul 11, 2018 7:51 pm

bwgood77 wrote:
ImNotMcDiSwear wrote:
bwgood77 wrote:
The Bucks pick has a good chance of being protected again, and who knows where our's would be. I wouldn't trade our first rounder next year, not with the new lottery system, and the top 4 being drawn and better odds for those without the very worst records.

There are a bunch of teams with cap space so we can't assume we will sign a big name. We could always decline options on Chriss or Bender to create more, and Shaq and Reed as well (though they make so little they would be worth keeping if they add value to the team).

I think we need to keep our picks and rookie contracts since we hopefully have some guys on our roster now that will command big second contracts. We will need those smaller cost controlled contracts to keep coming in.


I always wonder whether we'll be interested in deferring FRPs via trade. We have yet to do that. But looking at our roster, it's really hard to spot the position at which we're lacking for young talent. Deferring the FRPs would not only allow us to increase cap space, but it would also preserve trade value (most picks don't actually hit, and picks themselves are the league's most liquid assets) and, if we eventually do make the selection, we'd be adding those cheap contracts later, when they'd be more clearly needed.

Where we are in terms of the quality of our young talent is hopefully resolved to the upside this season. I'd much rather have JJ pan out than have to go chasing after Jimmy Butler and Kyrie.


I wouldn't start trading first round picks until you know you are clearly out of the lottery, and even then, I probably wouldn't do so. We've traded them when we had good picks in the past to teams that were not very good, only to end up with a much worse pick (I think we traded the Deng pick for a future first that ended up being at least 10 spots lower and was used on Nate Robinson, though we traded that too).


revisionist history:
trading the 7th pick the night before the draft to Chicago for whatever - Bulls picked Deng; Iggy was picked 9th

my favorite - the year they had the 17 and 18 - sold both off
one to Boston with Brian Grant for for 3m plus not paying Grant
the other for 3m

So instead of two rookies on rookie deals - or even on for like 1.5m at the time and the other sold off
Mike D and Bobby S sold both for cash and grant savings - but then turned around and paid Marcus Banks 5/21 :banghead: :banghead:

the good old days
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Re: 2018 Free Agency and Trade Discussion continued 

Post#351 » by Wilber85 » Wed Jul 11, 2018 7:56 pm

denial wrote:
MathiasPW wrote:If we enter the season with Knight as starting PG, we are doomed to fail.

I don't care how lessened his playmaking role will be because of a ball moving system, it will still go through his hands a lot, even for short spurts, and Knight is a terrible - and I mean REALLY TERRIBLE - decision-maker, on both ends of the floor. He will kill ball movement and get the defense exposed.

I can even buy the speech that he sees basketball differently after sitting for almost two years. Doesn't mean he will suddenly step on the court and make quick, solid decisions. His brain doesn't work well in such a fast environment.

I rather start Shaq and hope he can hit 3's at a 30% clip.


I am hoping that Knight's issues were system related. I am not saying they were. I am just hoping. We literally had the worst offensive scheme in the league when he was playing (E Watson or Horny was his coach... either way awful)


I will bet Knight is comeback player of the year! New system, and new team. I have faith in him.

Y'all are suns fans and talking smack about him! Dude was out last year, and injured. Let him focus on his role this year.
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Re: 2018 Free Agency and Trade Discussion continued 

Post#352 » by Wilber85 » Wed Jul 11, 2018 7:56 pm

denial wrote:
MathiasPW wrote:If we enter the season with Knight as starting PG, we are doomed to fail.

I don't care how lessened his playmaking role will be because of a ball moving system, it will still go through his hands a lot, even for short spurts, and Knight is a terrible - and I mean REALLY TERRIBLE - decision-maker, on both ends of the floor. He will kill ball movement and get the defense exposed.

I can even buy the speech that he sees basketball differently after sitting for almost two years. Doesn't mean he will suddenly step on the court and make quick, solid decisions. His brain doesn't work well in such a fast environment.

I rather start Shaq and hope he can hit 3's at a 30% clip.


I am hoping that Knight's issues were system related. I am not saying they were. I am just hoping. We literally had the worst offensive scheme in the league when he was playing (E Watson or Horny was his coach... either way awful)


I will bet Knight is comeback player of the year! New system, and new team. I have faith in him.

Y'all are suns fans and talking smack about him! Dude was out last year, and injured. Let him focus on his role this year.
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Re: RE: Re: 2018 Free Agency and Trade Discussion continued 

Post#353 » by MathiasPW » Wed Jul 11, 2018 8:03 pm

Wilber85 wrote:
denial wrote:
MathiasPW wrote:If we enter the season with Knight as starting PG, we are doomed to fail.

I don't care how lessened his playmaking role will be because of a ball moving system, it will still go through his hands a lot, even for short spurts, and Knight is a terrible - and I mean REALLY TERRIBLE - decision-maker, on both ends of the floor. He will kill ball movement and get the defense exposed.

I can even buy the speech that he sees basketball differently after sitting for almost two years. Doesn't mean he will suddenly step on the court and make quick, solid decisions. His brain doesn't work well in such a fast environment.

I rather start Shaq and hope he can hit 3's at a 30% clip.


I am hoping that Knight's issues were system related. I am not saying they were. I am just hoping. We literally had the worst offensive scheme in the league when he was playing (E Watson or Horny was his coach... either way awful)


I will bet Knight is comeback player of the year! New system, and new team. I have faith in him.

Y'all are suns fans and talking smack about him! Dude was out last year, and injured. Let him focus on his role this year.
I wish I could be this optimistic. There is just zero, ZERO evidence that he can play a role efficiently. In all of his seasons, in all of his teams, he sucked and his team was worse with him on the floor.

We have to bet on Kokoskov, more so than on Knight, to make it happen. While I have faith in our coach, it's also far from given that he can make it happen.

All in all, just too much of a risk to have when you want to be competitive.

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Re: 2018 Free Agency and Trade Discussion continued 

Post#354 » by Fo-Real » Wed Jul 11, 2018 8:24 pm

Funny that probably the one thing that everyone of us can agree on, not one of us care if Daniels is off the roster next year.
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Re: 2018 Free Agency and Trade Discussion continued 

Post#355 » by jcsunsfan » Wed Jul 11, 2018 8:25 pm

Wilber85 wrote:
denial wrote:
MathiasPW wrote:If we enter the season with Knight as starting PG, we are doomed to fail.

I don't care how lessened his playmaking role will be because of a ball moving system, it will still go through his hands a lot, even for short spurts, and Knight is a terrible - and I mean REALLY TERRIBLE - decision-maker, on both ends of the floor. He will kill ball movement and get the defense exposed.

I can even buy the speech that he sees basketball differently after sitting for almost two years. Doesn't mean he will suddenly step on the court and make quick, solid decisions. His brain doesn't work well in such a fast environment.

I rather start Shaq and hope he can hit 3's at a 30% clip.


I am hoping that Knight's issues were system related. I am not saying they were. I am just hoping. We literally had the worst offensive scheme in the league when he was playing (E Watson or Horny was his coach... either way awful)


I will bet Knight is comeback player of the year! New system, and new team. I have faith in him.

Y'all are suns fans and talking smack about him! Dude was out last year, and injured. Let him focus on his role this year.


I am glad you are optimistic, and a system change might help some. But make no mistake, Brandon Knight has to change the way he plays to have a future in this league. In his best games as a Sun he would go 1 on 5 on offense. He would not even look to pass the ball. Opposing play by play guys would joke about it during the game. It was horrible. He would take contested two point shots while his teammates stood wide open under the basket and behind the three point line. He ought to have a very short chain. If he starts pulling that crap, he needs to sit down immediately.
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Re: 2018 Free Agency and Trade Discussion continued 

Post#356 » by BobbieL » Wed Jul 11, 2018 8:29 pm

Fo-Real wrote:Funny that probably the one thing that everyone of us can agree on, not one of us care if Daniels is off the roster next year.


its not my money but i just don't see how they can release Shaq or Reed - when they have potential to keep Daniels. pay Daniels off - he is a sunk cost.

the team has been so far under the cap the last two years - and I get it . I am not even sure I want to include Shaq or Reed in a trade - but unless I see the player coming back - I can't totally answer that.

Like I said - move Daniels even if it costs you a 2nd
buyout Chandler - unless he TRULY wants to be here but otherwise - buy him out
sign Williams to replace Tyson with a minimum level deal
and if you can find a good player for 4.4m - and there should be plenty of people who will take 4.4m at this point - sign that guy. even if not a PG - there are good players still available. (like a used car salesman - come on down -- go see Cal!)
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Re: 2018 Free Agency and Trade Discussion continued 

Post#357 » by jcsunsfan » Wed Jul 11, 2018 8:50 pm

Daniels is a good player. He is an excellent shooter. We just cannot keep them all. Someone good has to be cut. But that is how it used to be with the Suns.

If its just about creating a roster spot, I would prefer to buyout Chandler or Dudley. They are both dead weight right now. Emphasis on weight.
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Re: 2018 Free Agency and Trade Discussion continued 

Post#358 » by ImNotMcDiSwear » Wed Jul 11, 2018 8:53 pm

jcsunsfan wrote:Daniels is a good player. He is an excellent shooter. We just cannot keep them all. Someone good has to be cut. But that is how it used to be with the Suns.


We have slots for everyone. Us wanting another open slot on the roster (if that rumor is true) is not about being able to keep Daniels and Shaq, it's about adding someone else.
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Re: 2018 Free Agency and Trade Discussion continued 

Post#359 » by BobbieL » Wed Jul 11, 2018 8:58 pm

ImNotMcDiSwear wrote:
jcsunsfan wrote:Daniels is a good player. He is an excellent shooter. We just cannot keep them all. Someone good has to be cut. But that is how it used to be with the Suns.


We have slots for everyone. Us wanting another open slot on the roster (if that rumor is true) is not about being able to keep Daniels and Shaq, it's about adding someone else.


Suns have 15 players under contract today - if you include the three rookies, Shaq and Reed. So, to add a player - one needs to be removed from the roster. Therefore, there is a numbers crunch and to add, one needs to go. Peters and King are two way guys so not part of the top 15.
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Re: 2018 Free Agency and Trade Discussion continued 

Post#360 » by stoo » Wed Jul 11, 2018 9:16 pm

guys.... i have already made a post about serbian coaching here... and you can look up internet about that.. so if knight plays bad (doesn't execute plans), he will be benched... don't worry... so i guess he will just have to play for the team
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