Game 76: Washington Wizards (30-45) at Phoenix Suns (17-58), Wednesday, Mar 27, 10PM

[lilfishi22]

Funny how everyone is giving Ayton a lot of ****, like any other rookie would have helped us had the draft gone any different. I noticed I haven't heard a peep about Doncic for a while, probably because since the all-star break the Mavericks are 3-14. All of a sudden, the Mavericks lose an actual quality NBA player in DeAndre Jordan and they start sucking.
I wonder what Mavs fans say when Doncic goes 4-19 for 13 points and 10 assists, or when gets a -31 against the Nets earlier this month, or shoots 0-9 from 3.

Probably because the mods were moderating the board to keep the discussion on the Suns and to not stray into the whole Luka v Ayton debate again

but fwiw, Doncic has 3 triple doubles in the last 5 games with 4 double digit rebounding games in that last 4. Just because he's not being discussed on the Suns forum (by design), doesn't mean he isn't out there still far and away one of the best rookies the league has ever seen

I didn't just mean the Suns forum, I meant the GB and even in the media. The talk of Doncic has cooled off a lot likely because his team has been trash since the all-star break after they made the KP trade. Doncic is winning ROY for sure, I was just saying, when I check out Doncic threads I don't see so much negativity. Looking at the Ayton thread, there is just so much negativity on him and not enough constructive criticism IMO.

The media isn't giving the Mavs nearly as much exposure as they did when the Mavs were a .500 team and battling for a playoff spot. It happens A LOT after the trade deadline when you get a better idea of what teams are doing (tanking or not) and if they have a legit chance. Media then changes their resourcing to the "stories" which after ASW is usually playoff teams or teams in the playoff race.

The difference between the criticism for Ayton/Luka is because one far exceeded expectations while the other (imo) barely met expectations. It's really that simple. Luka fans had their expectations exceeded while Luka detractors kind of had to admit he's damn good. On the other hand, Ayton fans had their expectations probably met while his detractors see a #1 pick that is neither consistently involved in helping the team play well and also generally inconsistent overall.

It's a matter of perspective. It's hard to crticise a guy that is far exceeding expectations while it's a lot easier to say, hey what's going on here when the player with the most expectations barely meets quota on a night to night basis. It's fine to have those -31 games, or 4-19 shooting games or even 0-9 from the 3 games when he has 7 triple doubles for the season which is 1 behind Lebron and 3 behind Simmons. This is sports entertainment, it's not always going to be fair and I fully recognize that Ayton gets more negativity than Luka but it is what it is when you're drafted #1 with all the hype and expectations in the world. Would we give Bender as much of a hard time (or would he even still be on the team) if he was taken #17 instead of #4? Probably not but there's expectations that comes with going #4 in the draft and more so when going #1.

[lilfishi22]

43% 3pt shooter cant hit a wide open freethrow version of 3ptr... the hell do we pay you for?

Even Steph Curry misses at the Free Throw line

**** happens, Book gave us a chance to win, coach called a great play, we lost.... such is life sometimes.

[lilfishi22]

Why is the shot not going to Booker? Sigh

Because everyone in the goddamn world (arena and Tv) were goddamn sure Booker would get the ball so EVERYBODY GUARDED HIM!!!! Which is why Daniels had a WIDE OPEN SHOT!! that he unfortunately missed. Does this really need to be explained to you?? Great call by the coach, missed the shot. Would have been ignorant to think Book could get a clean look in that situation, how on earth does you brain not figure that?

So what! I'd rather Book take the shot with 4 guys draped on him than Daniels. Has Troy ever made a clutch shot for the Suns? Also, learn to use the multiquote feature.

This is the most ridiculous take in this thread

[lilfishi22]

Funny how everyone is giving Ayton a lot of ****, like any other rookie would have helped us had the draft gone any different. I noticed I haven't heard a peep about Doncic for a while, probably because since the all-star break the Mavericks are 3-14. All of a sudden, the Mavericks lose an actual quality NBA player in DeAndre Jordan and they start sucking.
I wonder what Mavs fans say when Doncic goes 4-19 for 13 points and 10 assists, or when gets a -31 against the Nets earlier this month, or shoots 0-9 from 3.

Doncic just set the NBA record for most triple doubles by a rookie in the history of basketball...Trae Young became the first rookie since Oscar Robertson to have 6 or more games of 30+ points and 10+ assists. God knows what they could do with a 40 or 50 pt scorer like Booker.

This is the worst time to bring up the “being a rookie” thing.

3rd most actually. Tied with Magic

Behind Simmons (12) and the Big O (26)

[lilfishi22]

I’m a bit surprised that people are not more enthusiastic about last 2 Booker’s games. 50+ points with that good efficiency is something extremely rare. And to have it back2back is really unbelievable.

I think you’ll find that nobody here is really surprised about it. We all know what we have in Booker and that he is an elite scorer capable of an efficient 40-50 any night. Now the world knows. It just exacerbates how bad the rest of our roster is around him.

If you know that, why you don’t build the team around him? Mavs needed just 2 months to realize what they have got and started making trades. Suns didn’t do much in 4 years.

General front office incompetence mainly

Also I don't think the world knows that about Booker, they *still* see him as a guy who can only do that when he "chucks" as the empty stats guy that he is

[lilfishi22]

I was at the game last night. Something interesting I noticed. The entire Washington bench would get hyped when they would go into the paint against Ayton. They kept making fun of Ayton yelling "That's a BABY! He's a baby! He's small!"

Ayton seems to already have a reputation for being soft. I hope he gets angry about that.

It's a pretty **** reputation to have and it's one that only he has the power to overcome. I dunno what we need, maybe hire a 6'11 version of PJ Tucker who goes at him every practice or something but that all bark and no bite reputation has got to go

[lilfishi22]

In the end of this development focused season Ayton and Bridges have regressed. Neither can hit a shot now. Such a great sign for the bright future.

LOLWUT?

WUTLOL? Ayton's scoring is going down. Used to hit the mid-range shot pretty consistently early in the season. Now shoots it too fast for some reason and bricks it most of the time. Bridges shooting is not even worth discussing. A bit worrying for a franchise that has shown lack of player development that the young players are regressing.

Have you seen the improvement of Ayton's defense? He was a complete turnstile the first couple months of the season and has steadily improved. His has basically stayed at around the 16ppg mark. His shooting is on him, Igor can't shoot for him.

Bridges offense has taken on a new persona. He's no longer just a spot up shooter. If you've watched his game evolve, he's become more of a secondary ball handler, he's averaging around 3.5apg after the ASW and he's being far more aggressive on that end now.

[lilfishi22]

We're at game 76 of a rookie year where both Ayton and Bridges have played over 2000 minutes no shame in either guy hitting a rookie wall. These guys need some rest and then training to better survive season 2. That's just the way it is with guys their 1st year.

With that said there's no way id bring either Ayton or Bridges to summer league this year. They don't need those 5-6 crap games they need focused training instead. Both guys got huge rotation minutes this year and will again next season. Send Okobo, Melton, king and Spalding.

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I think exactly the opposite.

Where are they gonna train better than with our full staff, coaches and practicing our sets?

And they (mostly Ayton) need to gain confidence as a primary option on offense.

I just find summer league to be pretty worthless especially for bigs. It's a glorified pick up game with scrubs gunning for a camp invite.

Plus with the sheer amount of minutes both guys logged this season and will again next year if healthy why bother.

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You're talking about desperate men trying to make an NBA team like their life is on the line. These guys are going to go at Ayton, they are going to try and put him on a poster and they are not going to give an inch to the "#1 pick of the 2018 draft" just for a cheap 2-way contract with a team, any team.

Ayton should be playing summer league because his "bullyszn" needs to begin and begin early

[WeekapaugGroove]

I think exactly the opposite.

Where are they gonna train better than with our full staff, coaches and practicing our sets?

And they (mostly Ayton) need to gain confidence as a primary option on offense.

I just find summer league to be pretty worthless especially for bigs. It's a glorified pick up game with scrubs gunning for a camp invite.

Plus with the sheer amount of minutes both guys logged this season and will again next year if healthy why bother.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using RealGM mobile app

You're talking about desperate men trying to make an NBA team like their life is on the line. These guys are going to go at Ayton, they are going to try and put him on a poster and they are not going to give an inch to the "#1 pick of the 2018 draft" just for a cheap 2-way contract with a team, any team.

Ayton should be playing summer league because his "bullyszn" needs to begin and begin early

I get what you're saying and I'm sure the suns will play them both in summer league. I just personally wouldn't. It's kind of a no win for Ayton in summer league, if he plays well everyone is going to be like 'well he should, it's summer league and his second year' and if he struggles at all then the sky will be falling. (example: Josh Jackson and Bender last year) Plus it's just typically a crappy time for bigs because the game is so helter skelter and guards like to gun.

[lilfishi22]

I just find summer league to be pretty worthless especially for bigs. It's a glorified pick up game with scrubs gunning for a camp invite.

Plus with the sheer amount of minutes both guys logged this season and will again next year if healthy why bother.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using RealGM mobile app

You're talking about desperate men trying to make an NBA team like their life is on the line. These guys are going to go at Ayton, they are going to try and put him on a poster and they are not going to give an inch to the "#1 pick of the 2018 draft" just for a cheap 2-way contract with a team, any team.

Ayton should be playing summer league because his "bullyszn" needs to begin and begin early

I get what you're saying and I'm sure the suns will play them both in summer league. I just personally wouldn't. It's kind of a no win for Ayton in summer league, if he plays well everyone is going to be like 'well he should, it's summer league and his second year' and if he struggles at all then the sky will be falling. (example: Josh Jackson and Bender last year) Plus it's just typically a crappy time for bigs because the game is so helter skelter and guards like to gun.

And where are they now? They haven't proven they are legit NBA players and I tell you, it's NOT because of the Summer league. Ayton has already show he's an NBA player and he's done well in the Summer league before (unlike those other two) so he should absolutely be playing. And who knows, if we end up drafting Morant, I would love to see them build chemistry early

[bwgood77]

I was at the game last night. Something interesting I noticed. The entire Washington bench would get hyped when they would go into the paint against Ayton. They kept making fun of Ayton yelling "That's a BABY! He's a baby! He's small!"

Ayton seems to already have a reputation for being soft. I hope he gets angry about that.

Oh man. That’s embarrassing

Probably plays Fortnite like a baby too... come on Ayton! I hope he reads and hears some of this constructive criticism and I hope it helps his grow up a little faster. What kills me is it isn't like Thomas Bryant is some grizzled NBA vet. He is only a year older and is in his second year... and he's pushing our franchise guy around and making fun of Ayton! Something's got to give. Either Ayton steps up and grows up, or he can kiss that 2nd contract good-bye.

Decided to pull up a player comparison just to see since you said he was a year older. Figured Ayton would still look better. But no...per 36 slightly more pts/reb, but less efficient, way worse TS%, Bryant hits 3s at 34.5% and averages 50% more blocks per 36.

http://bkref.com/tiny/VMQzs

Hopefully in his 2nd year he is as good in some of these categories as Bryant.

[lilfishi22]

Oh man. That’s embarrassing

Probably plays Fortnite like a baby too... come on Ayton! I hope he reads and hears some of this constructive criticism and I hope it helps his grow up a little faster. What kills me is it isn't like Thomas Bryant is some grizzled NBA vet. He is only a year older and is in his second year... and he's pushing our franchise guy around and making fun of Ayton! Something's got to give. Either Ayton steps up and grows up, or he can kiss that 2nd contract good-bye.

Decided to pull up a player comparison just to see since you said he was a year older. Figured Ayton would still look better. But no...per 36 slightly more pts/reb, but less efficient, way worse TS%, Bryant hits 3s at 34.5% and averages 50% more blocks per 36.

http://bkref.com/tiny/VMQzs

Hopefully in his 2nd year he is as good in some of these categories as Bryant.

[RaisingArizona]

Because everyone in the goddamn world (arena and Tv) were goddamn sure Booker would get the ball so EVERYBODY GUARDED HIM!!!! Which is why Daniels had a WIDE OPEN SHOT!! that he unfortunately missed. Does this really need to be explained to you?? Great call by the coach, missed the shot. Would have been ignorant to think Book could get a clean look in that situation, how on earth does you brain not figure that?

So what! I'd rather Book take the shot with 4 guys draped on him than Daniels. Has Troy ever made a clutch shot for the Suns? Also, learn to use the multiquote feature.

This is the most ridiculous take in this thread

Thx, dude. Nobody still answered my question. When has Daniels ever hit a big shot for this team? But keep attacking, definitely helps build up the community here.

[lilfishi22]

So what! I'd rather Book take the shot with 4 guys draped on him than Daniels. Has Troy ever made a clutch shot for the Suns? Also, learn to use the multiquote feature.

This is the most ridiculous take in this thread

Thx, dude. Nobody still answered my question. When has Daniels ever hit a big shot for this team? But keep attacking, definitely helps build up the community here.

I answered it yesterday in a reply to you but you didn't even bother to read it. Instead of just playing the victim here, you could've just done a simple google search.

Why is the shot not going to Booker? Sigh

1. Because defensive focus is on Booker, Daniels getting wide open is evidence of that
2. Daniels shooting 50% from the 3 on 10 attempts

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[tgtm_24]

So what! I'd rather Book take the shot with 4 guys draped on him than Daniels. Has Troy ever made a clutch shot for the Suns? Also, learn to use the multiquote feature.

This is the dumbest thing I have seen on here and that’s saying something.

So dispute it rather than resorting to personal attacks? God damn this board is toxic lately

Come off it man. There was no personal attacks. It was purely an opinion of your opinion. Not one person would think Booker shooting over 4 defenders compared to an open Daniels would be a better option. No basketball analytics would support it either.

You’re entitled to your opinion absolutely, but in this situation you’ll be in a significant minority

[tgtm_24]

Probably because the mods were moderating the board to keep the discussion on the Suns and to not stray into the whole Luka v Ayton debate again

but fwiw, Doncic has 3 triple doubles in the last 5 games with 4 double digit rebounding games in that last 4. Just because he's not being discussed on the Suns forum (by design), doesn't mean he isn't out there still far and away one of the best rookies the league has ever seen

I didn't just mean the Suns forum, I meant the GB and even in the media. The talk of Doncic has cooled off a lot likely because his team has been trash since the all-star break after they made the KP trade. Doncic is winning ROY for sure, I was just saying, when I check out Doncic threads I don't see so much negativity. Looking at the Ayton thread, there is just so much negativity on him and not enough constructive criticism IMO.

The media isn't giving the Mavs nearly as much exposure as they did when the Mavs were a .500 team and battling for a playoff spot. It happens A LOT after the trade deadline when you get a better idea of what teams are doing (tanking or not) and if they have a legit chance. Media then changes their resourcing to the "stories" which after ASW is usually playoff teams or teams in the playoff race.

The difference between the criticism for Ayton/Luka is because one far exceeded expectations while the other (imo) barely met expectations. It's really that simple. Luka fans had their expectations exceeded while Luka detractors kind of had to admit he's damn good. On the other hand, Ayton fans had their expectations probably met while his detractors see a #1 pick that is neither consistently involved in helping the team play well and also generally inconsistent overall.

It's a matter of perspective. It's hard to crticise a guy that is far exceeding expectations while it's a lot easier to say, hey what's going on here when the player with the most expectations barely meets quota on a night to night basis. It's fine to have those -31 games, or 4-19 shooting games or even 0-9 from the 3 games when he has 7 triple doubles for the season which is 1 behind Lebron and 3 behind Simmons. This is sports entertainment, it's not always going to be fair and I fully recognize that Ayton gets more negativity than Luka but it is what it is when you're drafted #1 with all the hype and expectations in the world. Would we give Bender as much of a hard time (or would he even still be on the team) if he was taken #17 instead of #4? Probably not but there's expectations that comes with going #4 in the draft and more so when going #1.

I think Ayton suffers most due to having Luka in the same draft class. He’s averaging 15/10 shooting around 58%. His month by month averages are actually quite consistent. His body of work would be ROY worthy most years, 10 of the last 12 rookies to average at least 15/10 have been ROY. He’s got flaws but he’ll work them out. He’ll be shooting 3 balls next year and he’ll have more strings to his bow. Ayton has more upside than Doncic for mine

[lilfishi22]

I didn't just mean the Suns forum, I meant the GB and even in the media. The talk of Doncic has cooled off a lot likely because his team has been trash since the all-star break after they made the KP trade. Doncic is winning ROY for sure, I was just saying, when I check out Doncic threads I don't see so much negativity. Looking at the Ayton thread, there is just so much negativity on him and not enough constructive criticism IMO.

The media isn't giving the Mavs nearly as much exposure as they did when the Mavs were a .500 team and battling for a playoff spot. It happens A LOT after the trade deadline when you get a better idea of what teams are doing (tanking or not) and if they have a legit chance. Media then changes their resourcing to the "stories" which after ASW is usually playoff teams or teams in the playoff race.

The difference between the criticism for Ayton/Luka is because one far exceeded expectations while the other (imo) barely met expectations. It's really that simple. Luka fans had their expectations exceeded while Luka detractors kind of had to admit he's damn good. On the other hand, Ayton fans had their expectations probably met while his detractors see a #1 pick that is neither consistently involved in helping the team play well and also generally inconsistent overall.

It's a matter of perspective. It's hard to crticise a guy that is far exceeding expectations while it's a lot easier to say, hey what's going on here when the player with the most expectations barely meets quota on a night to night basis. It's fine to have those -31 games, or 4-19 shooting games or even 0-9 from the 3 games when he has 7 triple doubles for the season which is 1 behind Lebron and 3 behind Simmons. This is sports entertainment, it's not always going to be fair and I fully recognize that Ayton gets more negativity than Luka but it is what it is when you're drafted #1 with all the hype and expectations in the world. Would we give Bender as much of a hard time (or would he even still be on the team) if he was taken #17 instead of #4? Probably not but there's expectations that comes with going #4 in the draft and more so when going #1.

I think Ayton suffers most due to having Luka in the same draft class. He’s averaging 15/10 shooting around 58%. His month by month averages are actually quite consistent. His body of work would be ROY worthy most years, 10 of the last 12 rookies to average at least 15/10 have been ROY. He’s got flaws but he’ll work them out. He’ll be shooting 3 balls next year and he’ll have more strings to his bow. Ayton has more upside than Doncic for mine

Pretty much. 15/10 in the NBA just isn't that uncommon. Sure it's tough for bigs to come in and average 15/10 but 15/10 in itself (even with the great efficiency) isn't particularly game changing in the NBA. And the problem with Ayton is that Luka's 21/7/6 is absolutely historical and game changing. It's just much harder to make a case for Ayton to say that he's some amazing young player when he doesn't have the highlight reel, the awesome stats, the competitive team or even much of a consistent offensive role.

You're probably right in theory about upside but I mean you can say that about anyone. I think JJJr has more potential than Ayton I just don't think saying Player A has more upside than Player B has much value when both are fairly close and most players won't reach their ultimate potential anyway

[tgtm_24]

The media isn't giving the Mavs nearly as much exposure as they did when the Mavs were a .500 team and battling for a playoff spot. It happens A LOT after the trade deadline when you get a better idea of what teams are doing (tanking or not) and if they have a legit chance. Media then changes their resourcing to the "stories" which after ASW is usually playoff teams or teams in the playoff race.

The difference between the criticism for Ayton/Luka is because one far exceeded expectations while the other (imo) barely met expectations. It's really that simple. Luka fans had their expectations exceeded while Luka detractors kind of had to admit he's damn good. On the other hand, Ayton fans had their expectations probably met while his detractors see a #1 pick that is neither consistently involved in helping the team play well and also generally inconsistent overall.

It's a matter of perspective. It's hard to crticise a guy that is far exceeding expectations while it's a lot easier to say, hey what's going on here when the player with the most expectations barely meets quota on a night to night basis. It's fine to have those -31 games, or 4-19 shooting games or even 0-9 from the 3 games when he has 7 triple doubles for the season which is 1 behind Lebron and 3 behind Simmons. This is sports entertainment, it's not always going to be fair and I fully recognize that Ayton gets more negativity than Luka but it is what it is when you're drafted #1 with all the hype and expectations in the world. Would we give Bender as much of a hard time (or would he even still be on the team) if he was taken #17 instead of #4? Probably not but there's expectations that comes with going #4 in the draft and more so when going #1.

I think Ayton suffers most due to having Luka in the same draft class. He’s averaging 15/10 shooting around 58%. His month by month averages are actually quite consistent. His body of work would be ROY worthy most years, 10 of the last 12 rookies to average at least 15/10 have been ROY. He’s got flaws but he’ll work them out. He’ll be shooting 3 balls next year and he’ll have more strings to his bow. Ayton has more upside than Doncic for mine

Pretty much. 15/10 in the NBA just isn't that uncommon. Sure it's tough for bigs to come in and average 15/10 but 15/10 in itself (even with the great efficiency) isn't particularly game changing in the NBA. And the problem with Ayton is that Luka's 21/7/6 is absolutely historical and game changing. It's just much harder to make a case for Ayton to say that he's some amazing young player when he doesn't have the highlight reel, the awesome stats, the competitive team or even much of a consistent offensive role.

You're probably right in theory about upside but I mean you can say that about anyone. I think JJJr has more potential than Ayton I just don't think saying Player A has more upside than Player B has much value when both are fairly close and most players won't reach their ultimate potential anyway

Agree with that but I think Ayton deserves some slack but virtue of the fact playing the entire season without a bona fide point guard. Not too many C’s can do much without one. Not saying a PG would move the needle ahead of Luka, but it definitely won’t see him go backwards!