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Welcome Ricky Rubio

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Re: Welcome Ricky Rubio 

Post#241 » by El Hespiritu » Sun Jul 14, 2019 4:42 pm

Aside LeBald, I can't honestly see a player at the league worthy to build the systems around him.
Not even Kawhi, The Beard or KD.
A case could be made with Gobert but this is more a matter of how his particularities as a player (qualities/frailties) determines the best systems to play.

No idea what Monty will do but I think everybody at court should be part of the system and none should be its focus.
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Re: Welcome Ricky Rubio 

Post#242 » by hollywood6964 » Sun Jul 14, 2019 4:48 pm

El Hespiritu wrote:Aside LeBald, I can't honestly see a player at the league worthy to build the systems around him.
Not even Kawhi, The Beard or KD.
A case could be made with Gobert but this is more a matter of how his particularities as a player (qualities/frailties) determines the best systems to play.

No idea what Monty will do but I think everybody at court should be part of the system and none should be its focus.

Did you just say Gobert?
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Re: Welcome Ricky Rubio 

Post#243 » by El Hespiritu » Sun Jul 14, 2019 4:52 pm

Did you just make a rethorical question?
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Re: Welcome Ricky Rubio 

Post#244 » by Bohkke » Sun Jul 14, 2019 4:56 pm

Saberestar wrote:
LesGrossman wrote:In his time in Utah the Jazz reached the playoffs twice. In their first series, the main theme was basically Rubio vs. Westbrook, with Rubio scoring the first triple double since John Stockton in his first playoff appearance, Westbrook "guaranteeing to shut this s**t down" in the post game presser and then Rubio mentally outplaying him, tricking him into a couple of dumb fouls. Next press conference Westbrook stated he "doesnt want to talk about Rubio " any more. OKC was beaten up severely, then Rubio got injured and the Jazz were unspectacularly removed from competition by the Rockets. For a few days everyone was nothing but praise for Rubio (can still be found in the game threads) but for some reason shortly after that the good old "he is useless because he cant shoot 3's" guys came around the corner again (some of which already showed up here to spread hate).

Second season, same story. Rubio was the best player vs. Houston despite the much praised Mitchell, who consistently disappears in the post season. Joe Ingles , the Jazz' #1 scoring shooter from 3, refused to take open shots and passed to Ricky instead who usualy takes and misses the desperation last second 3. What is left afterwards? Immediately after, eeryone said Ricky was the best player and had everyone showed the heart and desire he did, then the Jazz would have won. Two weeks later, the good ole boys came around and demanded a trade because he cant shoot 3's.

Basically what Rubio needs (finally) is one coach who understand what he does and does not bring to the table, and tailors a system and team around that. Minnesota never did it, they had KAT, Wiggins, Bennett as #1 picks with more popularity. Utah had Mitchell and Gobert, Rubio was deemed a "role player". Very much looking forward to see what Phoenix comes up with.

The Suns have Devin Booker and Deandre Ayton. We are gonna play for Booker, sometimes trying to find him on good spots to finish plays and sometimes giving him the ball to attack mismatches in isolations. Ayton will be our second option ( I suppose) on offense.

I am not expecting to see a system and team around Rubio because he is not good enough, we are not talking about LeBron or someone like that here. He is a good PG, and he will be part of the system as a facilitator.


I don’t think he means to build a system around Rubio or that he should be the go-to guy, just that he should be used as what he is: a pure pass-first point guard. A way in which he was almost never used in Minnesota or even less in Utah. The system should be about that, or they shouldn’t have signed Rubio.

Just let him be the guy who gets the ball up and sets the plays.

Devin Booker will be so much more efficient with Rubio finding him in the right spots. And so will Ayton.

If he isn’t used this way, being a floor general, it will be a waste of time for both sides. For this is Rubio’s greatest strenght.
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Re: Welcome Ricky Rubio 

Post#245 » by Saberestar » Sun Jul 14, 2019 5:40 pm

Bohkke wrote:
Saberestar wrote:
LesGrossman wrote:In his time in Utah the Jazz reached the playoffs twice. In their first series, the main theme was basically Rubio vs. Westbrook, with Rubio scoring the first triple double since John Stockton in his first playoff appearance, Westbrook "guaranteeing to shut this s**t down" in the post game presser and then Rubio mentally outplaying him, tricking him into a couple of dumb fouls. Next press conference Westbrook stated he "doesnt want to talk about Rubio " any more. OKC was beaten up severely, then Rubio got injured and the Jazz were unspectacularly removed from competition by the Rockets. For a few days everyone was nothing but praise for Rubio (can still be found in the game threads) but for some reason shortly after that the good old "he is useless because he cant shoot 3's" guys came around the corner again (some of which already showed up here to spread hate).

Second season, same story. Rubio was the best player vs. Houston despite the much praised Mitchell, who consistently disappears in the post season. Joe Ingles , the Jazz' #1 scoring shooter from 3, refused to take open shots and passed to Ricky instead who usualy takes and misses the desperation last second 3. What is left afterwards? Immediately after, eeryone said Ricky was the best player and had everyone showed the heart and desire he did, then the Jazz would have won. Two weeks later, the good ole boys came around and demanded a trade because he cant shoot 3's.

Basically what Rubio needs (finally) is one coach who understand what he does and does not bring to the table, and tailors a system and team around that. Minnesota never did it, they had KAT, Wiggins, Bennett as #1 picks with more popularity. Utah had Mitchell and Gobert, Rubio was deemed a "role player". Very much looking forward to see what Phoenix comes up with.

The Suns have Devin Booker and Deandre Ayton. We are gonna play for Booker, sometimes trying to find him on good spots to finish plays and sometimes giving him the ball to attack mismatches in isolations. Ayton will be our second option ( I suppose) on offense.

I am not expecting to see a system and team around Rubio because he is not good enough, we are not talking about LeBron or someone like that here. He is a good PG, and he will be part of the system as a facilitator.


I don’t think he means to build a system around Rubio or that he should be the go-to guy, just that he should be used as what he is: a pure pass-first point guard. A way in which he was almost never used in Minnesota or even less in Utah. The system should be about that, or they shouldn’t have signed Rubio.

Just let him be the guy who gets the ball up and sets the plays.

Devin Booker will be so much more efficient with Rubio finding him in the right spots. And so will Ayton.

If he isn’t used this way, being a floor general, it will be a waste of time for both sides. For this is Rubio’s greatest strenght.

Yeah, I think the Suns will make Rubio a big part of the team...like he was a big part of the Wolves and the Jazz.

But I don't know why some people think that he has been misused in the past, he got the starting role every single time and a lot of opportunities. Something good about Rubio is that you know what you get.

He is a good player, but he is not good enough to build a system around him IMO. And it looks like every HC that he has had thought the same about him. He played for two GREAT coaches in R. Adelman and Q. Snyder, these two know a couple of things about how to use all the qualities that their players have.

I do not expect a crazy change in his production from the last few years. Above all, he will pass the ball to our scorers (Booker, Ayton, Oubre), he will control the tempo and will work hard on defense producing havoc, some deflections and charging fouls. That is what he has been doing (with some highs and downs) during the last eight years in the NBA.
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Re: Welcome Ricky Rubio 

Post#246 » by LesGrossman » Sun Jul 14, 2019 8:33 pm

Saberestar wrote:
LesGrossman wrote:In his time in Utah the Jazz reached the playoffs twice. In their first series, the main theme was basically Rubio vs. Westbrook, with Rubio scoring the first triple double since John Stockton in his first playoff appearance, Westbrook "guaranteeing to shut this s**t down" in the post game presser and then Rubio mentally outplaying him, tricking him into a couple of dumb fouls. Next press conference Westbrook stated he "doesnt want to talk about Rubio " any more. OKC was beaten up severely, then Rubio got injured and the Jazz were unspectacularly removed from competition by the Rockets. For a few days everyone was nothing but praise for Rubio (can still be found in the game threads) but for some reason shortly after that the good old "he is useless because he cant shoot 3's" guys came around the corner again (some of which already showed up here to spread hate).

Second season, same story. Rubio was the best player vs. Houston despite the much praised Mitchell, who consistently disappears in the post season. Joe Ingles , the Jazz' #1 scoring shooter from 3, refused to take open shots and passed to Ricky instead who usualy takes and misses the desperation last second 3. What is left afterwards? Immediately after, eeryone said Ricky was the best player and had everyone showed the heart and desire he did, then the Jazz would have won. Two weeks later, the good ole boys came around and demanded a trade because he cant shoot 3's.

Basically what Rubio needs (finally) is one coach who understand what he does and does not bring to the table, and tailors a system and team around that. Minnesota never did it, they had KAT, Wiggins, Bennett as #1 picks with more popularity. Utah had Mitchell and Gobert, Rubio was deemed a "role player". Very much looking forward to see what Phoenix comes up with.

The Suns have Devin Booker and Deandre Ayton. We are gonna play for Booker, sometimes trying to find him on good spots to finish plays and sometimes giving him the ball to attack mismatches in isolations. Ayton will be our second option ( I suppose) on offense.

I am not expecting to see a system and team around Rubio because he is not good enough, we are not talking about LeBron or someone like that here. He is a good PG, and he will be part of the system as a facilitator.

He doesnt need a system that makes him the primary scorer, the super star or so. Of course Booker and Ayton , maybe Saric will be the top scorers. He needs a system that allows him to set his guys up though. Its in everyone's interest, too.
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Re: Welcome Ricky Rubio 

Post#247 » by El Hespiritu » Sun Jul 14, 2019 8:54 pm

He doesn't need any particular system. He never did.
Played his best basketball under SociopathEyes' systems, for instance.

He cares about everybody at court being at the same page, about everybody battering his ass in defense, about running the right plays in the right moments, about the team doing what the coaches meant to be done.

Whatever systems Monty has in mind, Rubio will play them to the higher NBA levels.

He doesn't care about systems.
Neither do I.
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Re: Welcome Ricky Rubio 

Post#248 » by LesGrossman » Sun Jul 14, 2019 9:27 pm

El Hespiritu wrote:He doesn't need any particular system. He never did.
Played his best basketball under SociopathEyes' systems, for instance.

He cares about everybody at court being at the same page, about everybody battering his ass in defense, about running the right plays in the right moments, about the team doing what the coaches meant to be done.

Whatever systems Monty has in mind, Rubio will play them to the higher NBA levels.

He doesn't care about systems.
Neither do I.

Of course he cares for systems. And no he didnt play his best basketball in Utah. He tried, and had some good episodes. But playing off the ball is not a good way to use this player, period. Thibideau did it and so did Snyder for the most part. The system, if you want to, can be very simple - pick and roll, run and score. But a motion offense with continued passing, cutting and screening often results in the wrong people making (bad) decisions and the wrong people being forced to shoot 3's.
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Re: Welcome Ricky Rubio 

Post#249 » by El Hespiritu » Sun Jul 14, 2019 10:28 pm

Of course he doesn't. And yes he did it in Utah. Had faaaaar more than good episodes. The best way to use this player is leading the team at court off & on the ball, period. BaldFaThibs and SociopathEyes did it for some part, by no means the most. I repeat: I don't want any specific system, be simple, complex, pick'n'rollers or run'n'scorers. A motion offense is as good a system as whatever other.

I'm just so confident in RR that I know he will do a great job no matter the system Monty makes him to play.
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Re: Welcome Ricky Rubio 

Post#250 » by LesGrossman » Sun Jul 14, 2019 10:38 pm

El Hespiritu wrote:Of course he doesn't. And yes he did it in Utah. Had faaaaar more than good episodes. The best way to use this player is leading the team at court off & on the ball, period. BaldFaThibs and SociopathEyes did it for some part, by no means the most. I repeat: I don't want any specific system, be simple, complex, pick'n'rollers or run'n'scorers. A motion offense is as good a system as whatever other.

I'm just so confident in RR that I know he will do a great job no matter the system Monty makes him to play.

He did so well in Thibs' system of "park Ricky in the corner" that he was traded to Utah. He did so well in Snyders egalitarian "advantage" offense that Utah traded him to Phoenix. I respect your unconditional fandom but what you write is just completely unrelated to anything that has happened in the past few years since he entered the NBA.
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Re: Welcome Ricky Rubio 

Post#251 » by El Hespiritu » Sun Jul 14, 2019 11:00 pm

He did so well in BaldFaThibs system that Utah wanted him to lead them to PO.

He did so well in SociopathEyes egalitarian "advantage" offense that under RR's lead, Utah raised to the highest level since Stockton/Malone times.

I respect your unconditional faith in your tactical and strategical skills but what I wrote is just completely related to everything that has happened in the past few years since he entered the NBA.

(sorry, I prefer paragraphs for aestethical reasons).

If Rubio thrieves at PHO, I will not praise the systems for that.
If Rubio fails af PHO, I will not blame the systems for that.

He's not so system-dependant as you think.
He's more of a trust-dependant kind of guy.
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Re: Welcome Ricky Rubio 

Post#252 » by LesGrossman » Mon Jul 15, 2019 12:21 am

El Hespiritu wrote:He did so well in BaldFaThibs system that Utah wanted him to lead them to PO.

He did so well in SociopathEyes egalitarian "advantage" offense that under RR's lead, Utah raised to the highest level since Stockton/Malone times.

I respect your unconditional faith in your tactical and strategical skills but what I wrote is just completely related to everything that has happened in the past few years since he entered the NBA.

(sorry, I prefer paragraphs for aestethical reasons).

If Rubio thrieves at PHO, I will not praise the systems for that.
If Rubio fails af PHO, I will not blame the systems for that.

He's not so system-dependant as you think.
He's more of a trust-dependant kind of guy.

You think Utah acquired Rubio for himself? I think its well known he was brought in because Hayward supposedly liked his game and they were trying to convince him to stay with Utah. And he was traded nontheless. I'll stop "arguing" wiht you here - its fine if you believe Rubio will thrive as a second coming of Ray Allen, i disagree even though i am probably one of the greatest Rubio stans around. But i guess you still beat me to it, by a mile. Have a good day.
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Re: Welcome Ricky Rubio 

Post#253 » by jcsunsfan » Mon Jul 15, 2019 12:26 am

LesGrossman wrote:
El Hespiritu wrote:He did so well in BaldFaThibs system that Utah wanted him to lead them to PO.

He did so well in SociopathEyes egalitarian "advantage" offense that under RR's lead, Utah raised to the highest level since Stockton/Malone times.

I respect your unconditional faith in your tactical and strategical skills but what I wrote is just completely related to everything that has happened in the past few years since he entered the NBA.

(sorry, I prefer paragraphs for aestethical reasons).

If Rubio thrieves at PHO, I will not praise the systems for that.
If Rubio fails af PHO, I will not blame the systems for that.

He's not so system-dependant as you think.
He's more of a trust-dependant kind of guy.

You think Utah acquired Rubio for himself? I think its well known he was brought in because Hayward supposedly liked his game and they were trying to convince him to stay with Utah. And he was traded nontheless. I'll stop "arguing" wiht you here - its fine if you believe Rubio will thrive as a second coming of Ray Allen, i disagree even though i am probably one of the greatest Rubio stans around. But i guess you still beat me to it, by a mile. Have a good day.

Hmm. Did he say that? No, he did not, and you know it. Can't put words in a guys mouth like that and drop the mic and walk away. You lost your argument right there.
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Re: Welcome Ricky Rubio 

Post#254 » by Bohkke » Mon Jul 15, 2019 5:22 am

I understand both arguments and believe neither of them are wrong. Rubio has such high BBIQ that he’ll learn to adapt and help the team in any system he’s in, as long as he feels the confidence from the coaching staff.

But he’s at his best when playing at a high pace and leading the charge. For me, handing the ball over as soon as he gets to the opponent’s court to watch the play develop through someone else’s hands is downplaying Ricky.
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Re: Welcome Ricky Rubio 

Post#255 » by Note30 » Mon Jul 15, 2019 5:37 am

El Hespiritu wrote:He did so well in BaldFaThibs system that Utah wanted him to lead them to PO.

He did so well in SociopathEyes egalitarian "advantage" offense that under RR's lead, Utah raised to the highest level since Stockton/Malone times.

I respect your unconditional faith in your tactical and strategical skills but what I wrote is just completely related to everything that has happened in the past few years since he entered the NBA.

(sorry, I prefer paragraphs for aestethical reasons).

If Rubio thrieves at PHO, I will not praise the systems for that.
If Rubio fails af PHO, I will not blame the systems for that.

He's not so system-dependant as you think.
He's more of a trust-dependant kind of guy.


I agree personally. Utah did good by him in that they forced him to attack the rim more often, and as a result he pushed himself to a new height, but his best season IMO was either when Thibs was coach ironically enough. He played just as well under Sam Mitchell, arguably better.

I think its because every coach respects the fact that Ricky knows what he's doing out there. That being said, that's not how Utah used him in his second year there. Anytime he gets parked in the corner, happened under Thibs and Synder, the offense suffers. Its just facts.

His last year was bad. Utah used him poorly, but I think its also because Ingles dropped off in his shooting percentage. That Rubio to Ingles corner three flare screen setup smoothed out Utah's offense quite often. It was one of the most used plays against OKC in 2018.
But for some reason this year, Joe and Donovan would walk the ball up more often and Rubio would slide into the corner left.

I think he isn't a system-dependent player but obviously, if you let him run the offense he and (the team) generally will do better.
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Re: Welcome Ricky Rubio 

Post#256 » by NTB » Mon Jul 15, 2019 7:11 am

Lmao imagine having these kinda conversations for Isaiah Canaan, Melton, Okobo or Jamal Crawford. Rubio will be just fine here.
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Re: Welcome Ricky Rubio 

Post#257 » by Saberestar » Mon Jul 15, 2019 8:35 am

NTB wrote:Lmao imagine having these kinda conversations for Isaiah Canaan, Melton, Okobo or Jamal Crawford. Rubio will be just fine here.

Jamal Crawford does not deserve to be on that list. The guy is 39, and even at that age is a better basketball player than those other three together.
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Re: Welcome Ricky Rubio 

Post#258 » by NTB » Mon Jul 15, 2019 9:00 am

Saberestar wrote:
NTB wrote:Lmao imagine having these kinda conversations for Isaiah Canaan, Melton, Okobo or Jamal Crawford. Rubio will be just fine here.

Jamal Crawford does not deserve to be on that list. The guy is 39, and even at that age is a better basketball player than those other three together.


He may be a good mentor but that's it. He played as PG when he is not even one. It is not his fault but that doesn't change the fact that our PG rotation was abysmal. He was never a positive on the court (advanced stat wise) even in his prime years and yet we used him on the court way too much when he is at the end of his career at age 39.
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Re: Welcome Ricky Rubio 

Post#259 » by Sugarless » Mon Jul 15, 2019 2:27 pm

I'm quite surprised to see anyone think we saw the best version of Rubio with the Jazz. That's far from the truth, unless you're focused on his scoring, and even then there's not that big of a difference with his last year in Minnesota.

Rubio's played at his best when he's been handled the reigns of the team fully. That's happened twice in his NBA career:

- Second half of the season under Mitchell, once he finally let the team run in transition and play at a faster pace overall.

- Second half of Thibs' first year with the Wolves, after he was forced to admit his Wiggins' point-forward experiment was a complete failure (as expected), and around the same time LaVine tore his ACL.

That's when we saw Rubio thrive and make the most out of a group comprised of a few talented but really young players, and a bunch of scrubs. And his team was much better because of it (for instance, the 5-man unit of Rubio - Wiggins - Muhammad - Dieng - KAT had a 121.1 ORTG and 14.2 NETRTG, which was 6th and 10th in the league respectively amongst those that logged at least 150 minutes together).

He was never fully unleashed under Adelman's corner offense, and he certainly wasn't a good fit when his role was often reduced to standing on a corner while Wiggins, LaVine, Mitchell and Ingles handled the ball during his last 3 seasons.

That's what Les is talking about when he mentions building a system around him (or his skill set, if you prefer). It's not that Rubio has to be the focal point of the offense by any means, but that you have to let him run the offense, give him a certain amount of freedom, and then reap the benefits of having someone who's probably the purest PG in the league and is at the top of his position when it comes to his BBIQ, his vision and his ability to deliver the ball at the right time and on the right spot to his teammates. And the point is not that Rubio is going to be better, the point is the Suns as a whole will be better, because that's what great traditional PGs like Ricky have always done for their teams.

I can't say I'm a big fan of Monty Williams as a coach so far. His stint in NOLA wasn't anything to write home about, to be honest. But I like the fact that he's talked about learning with / from Ricky. Rubio is going to be his extension on the floor, he'll run the plays that he's told and his execution will be excellent for the most part, as usual, but if Monty gives him some freedom to operate, read the defense and trust his instincts, then I'm confident the Suns offense will shine, and Ayton and Booker will be the first to benefit from it.

PS: Quin Snyder is an excellent coach, but it's his defense around Gobert that sets him apart, not his offense, despite the amount of open shots it generates through constant (albeit slow) movement. Rubio played his role in that offense, and he did just fine, but if you look at his best moments playing for the Jazz, they came with the ball in his hands, running around the paint and creating for others. And you could see that especially during both playoffs runs, when their offense stalled and he was allowed to handle the ball more, mainly at the expense of Joe Ingles.
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Re: Welcome Ricky Rubio 

Post#260 » by jcsunsfan » Mon Jul 15, 2019 3:03 pm

Sugarless wrote:I'm quite surprised to see anyone think we saw the best version of Rubio with the Jazz. That's far from the truth, unless you're focused on his scoring, and even then there's not that big of a difference with his last year in Minnesota.

Rubio's played at his best when he's been handled the reigns of the team fully. That's happened twice in his NBA career:

- Second half of the season under Mitchell, once he finally let the team run in transition and play at a faster pace overall.

- Second half of Thibs' first year with the Wolves, after he was forced to admit his Wiggins' point-forward experiment was a complete failure (as expected), and around the same time LaVine tore his ACL.

That's when we saw Rubio thrive and make the most out of a group comprised of a few talented but really young players, and a bunch of scrubs. And his team was much better because of it (for instance, the 5-man unit of Rubio - Wiggins - Muhammad - Dieng - KAT had a 121.1 ORTG and 14.2 NETRTG, which was 6th and 10th in the league respectively amongst those that logged at least 150 minutes together).

He was never fully unleashed under Adelman's corner offense, and he certainly wasn't a good fit when his role was often reduced to standing on a corner while Wiggins, LaVine, Mitchell and Ingles handled the ball during his last 3 seasons.

That's what Les is talking about when he mentions building a system around him (or his skill set, if you prefer). It's not that Rubio has to be the focal point of the offense by any means, but that you have to let him run the offense, give him a certain amount of freedom, and then reap the benefits of having someone who's probably the purest PG in the league and is at the top of his position when it comes to his BBIQ, his vision and his ability to deliver the ball at the right time and on the right spot to his teammates. And the point is not that Rubio is going to be better, the point is the Suns as a whole will be better, because that's what great traditional PGs like Ricky have always done for their teams.

I can't say I'm a big fan of Monty Williams as a coach so far. His stint in NOLA wasn't anything to write home about, to be honest. But I like the fact that he's talked about learning with / from Ricky. Rubio is going to be his extension on the floor, he'll run the plays that he's told and his execution will be excellent for the most part, as usual, but if Monty gives him some freedom to operate, read the defense and trust his instincts, then I'm confident the Suns offense will shine, and Ayton and Booker will be the first to benefit from it.

PS: Quin Snyder is an excellent coach, but it's his defense around Gobert that sets him apart, not his offense, despite the amount of open shots it generates through constant (albeit slow) movement. Rubio played his role in that offense, and he did just fine, but if you look at his best moments playing for the Jazz, they came with the ball in his hands, running around the paint and creating for others. And you could see that especially during both playoffs runs, when their offense stalled and he was allowed to handle the ball more, mainly at the expense of Joe Ingles.

Oh good grief. It’s coming isn’t it? If Rubio struggles at all or doesn’t quite meet up to these lofty expectations, it will all be on Monty. Because Ricky is nothing but wonderful. Listen guys, you want to make the Phoenix fan base (at least on this forum) hate Ricky Rubio? Treat him like he can do no wrong and blame everyone else for his flaws.

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