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Growing up, the Clippers and the Mavericks were the laughing stock of the NBA. Both teams were often made fun of and both teams were always in the lottery.

Cuban turned the Mavs from an NBA doormat into NBA champions and constant contenders. They are always in the market for big name free agents and always making ballsy trades.

Once the Donald Sterling issues came out, it was easy to see why the Clippers always sucked. Sterling was a racist and terrible leader. The Clippers only got good when Sterling essentially got too old to run the team and took a backseat to operations. And now that he was forced to sell to Balmer, the Clippers now won the Kawai and PG sweepstakes because Kawai realized that the Clippers are now the best run franchise in LA.

Meanwhile in the same arena, the Lakers are now being passed on by major free agents because their management sucks.

So, is it any wonder why the Suns now suck after constantly being one of the most winningest sports franchises? Colangelo built the SSOL team and handed it off to Sarver who started making mistakes RIGHT AWAY.

1. Sarver embarrassed himself right away by sitting courtside and yelling at refs, waving the foam finger, and jumping of the dunk trampoline.
2. Sarver's negative treatment of refs might be one of the reasons we had a hard time getting calls in the Spurs series.
3. Sarver botched the Joe Johnson extension

All this in the first year ALONE!

And now, after another summer of underwhelming moves (seemingly motivated primarily by keeping expenses in line), I have to ask...how much longer are we going to put up with this asshat?

Probably for the foreseeable future.

I dont think sarver had a lot (or anything) to do with our offseason moves. The contrast between McD and Jones is striking. There is no way Sarver was controlling McD and Jones decisions, they're worlds different in substance and style (jj moves vs mcd moves). I've concluded that people just dont like Sarver because of something about him (the way he looks, talks, etc.. not sure what it is) because he is always scapegoated imo. I just don't see the facts adding up to the conclusion that we suck because sarver is cheap. I think we would be hard-pressed to do much better than we did this summer with our assets and the current desirability of our team (last in league).
And besides all that, and perhaps more importantly, as long as we're winning I want to see him doing 5 flip dunks off of a half-court trampoline at least once a night.

LukasBMW wrote:Growing up, the Clippers and the Mavericks were the laughing stock of the NBA. Both teams were often made fun of and bot teams were always in the lottery.

Cuban turned the Mavs from a NBS doormat into NBA champions and constant contenders. They are always in the market for big name free agents and always making ballsy trades.

Once the Donald Sterling issues came out, it was easy to see why the Clippers always sucked. Sterling was a racist and terrible leader. The Clippers only got good when Sterling essentially got too old to run the team and took a backseat to operations. And now that he was forced to sell to Balmer, the Clippers now won the Kawai and PG sweepstakes because Kawai realized that the Clippers are now the best run franchise in LA.

Meanwhile in the same arena, the Lakers are now being passed on by major free agents because their management sucks.

So, is it any wonder why the Suns now suck after constantly being one of the most winningest sports franchises? Colangelo built the SSOL team and handed it off to Sarver who started making mistakes RIGHT AWAY.

1. Sarver embarrassed himself right away by sitting courtside and yelling at refs, waving the foam finger, and jumping of the dunk trampoline.
2. Sarver's negative treatment of refs might be one of the reasons we had a hard time getting calls in the Spurs series.
3. Sarver botched the Joe Johnson extension

All this in the first year ALONE!

And now, after another summer of underwhelming moves (seemingly motivated primarily by keeping expenses in line), I have to ask...how much longer are we going to put up with this asshat?

I agree Sarver sucks as an owner and is a detriment to the franchise. However I don't think this summers moves were money motivated at all, they spent all they could and will likely be spending more with Oubre. Heck if money was the number 1 motivator he wouldn't be paying Igor not to coach here or spent on Monty.

I agree balmer has become a great owner after some early new owner issues. He's also one of the richest dudes in the world so that helps.

I think Cuban is a mixed bag. Yes they won a chip but he let guys like Chandler leave that summer in a straight up cost motivated decision. They chase FAs but really haven't done well in that regard with guys like Harrison Barnes and washed up versions of Wes Matthews and Jordan as their biggest gets. He admitted in an article I read this year that he over ruled their GM when he wanted to draft Giannis. Plus they just has some pretty bad sexual harassment issues in the org.

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WeekapaugGroove wrote:

LukasBMW wrote:Growing up, the Clippers and the Mavericks were the laughing stock of the NBA. Both teams were often made fun of and bot teams were always in the lottery.

Cuban turned the Mavs from a NBS doormat into NBA champions and constant contenders. They are always in the market for big name free agents and always making ballsy trades.

Once the Donald Sterling issues came out, it was easy to see why the Clippers always sucked. Sterling was a racist and terrible leader. The Clippers only got good when Sterling essentially got too old to run the team and took a backseat to operations. And now that he was forced to sell to Balmer, the Clippers now won the Kawai and PG sweepstakes because Kawai realized that the Clippers are now the best run franchise in LA.

Meanwhile in the same arena, the Lakers are now being passed on by major free agents because their management sucks.

So, is it any wonder why the Suns now suck after constantly being one of the most winningest sports franchises? Colangelo built the SSOL team and handed it off to Sarver who started making mistakes RIGHT AWAY.

1. Sarver embarrassed himself right away by sitting courtside and yelling at refs, waving the foam finger, and jumping of the dunk trampoline.
2. Sarver's negative treatment of refs might be one of the reasons we had a hard time getting calls in the Spurs series.
3. Sarver botched the Joe Johnson extension

All this in the first year ALONE!

And now, after another summer of underwhelming moves (seemingly motivated primarily by keeping expenses in line), I have to ask...how much longer are we going to put up with this asshat?

I agree Sarver sucks as an owner and is a detriment to the franchise. However I don't think this summers moves were money motivated at all, they spent all they could and will likely be spending more with Oubre. Heck if money was the number 1 motivator he wouldn't be paying Igor not to coach here or spent on Monty.

I agree balmer has become a great owner after some early new owner issues. He's also one of the richest dudes in the world so that helps.

I think Cuban is a mixed bag. Yes they won a chip but he let guys like Chandler leave that summer in a straight up cost motivated decision. They chase FAs but really haven't done well in that regard with guys like Harrison Barnes and washed up versions of Wes Matthews and Jordan as their biggest gets. He admitted in an article I read this year that he over ruled their GM when he wanted to draft Giannis. Plus they just has some pretty bad sexual harassment issues in the org.

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Yeah, when you have a guy the workplace has nicknamed "PantsDJ" based on his actions, something is wrong in the workplace.

Considering he bought the team around $400mil and the team is worth about $1.2bil I highly doubt he's considering selling anytime soon. The changes have been made and I think Sarver has corrected a lot of his mistakes by hiring Jones and company.

I didn’t like the value from most of our trades...
But to me this has been one of the best summers in the last 9 years.

Crives wrote:I didn’t like the value from most of our trades...
But to me this has been one of the best summers in the last 9 years.

Might be sacrilegious around these parts but I think the first McD off season was better. Turned a team of Gortat's, Scola's, Beasley's, O'Neal's and Shannon Brown's into a team that had good young talent and good future assets. The 48 wins might've been lightning in a bottle but I felt pretty damn good going into that season

lilfishi22 wrote:

Crives wrote:I didn’t like the value from most of our trades...
But to me this has been one of the best summers in the last 9 years.

Might be sacrilegious around these parts but I think the first McD off season was better. Turned a team of Gortat's, Scola's, Beasley's, O'Neal's and Shannon Brown's into a team that had good young talent and good future assets. The 48 wins might've been lightning in a bottle but I felt pretty damn good going into that season

We will see if Jones and Monty can beat those 48 wins. They certainly have more star power. I don't think 3 of those players had ever regularly started....Bledsoe, Frye and Plumlee. And then of course they lost Bledsoe half the year and he was replaced by Green who had never started.

Only starters from before I think were Dragic and Tucker.

bwgood77 wrote:

lilfishi22 wrote:

Crives wrote:I didn’t like the value from most of our trades...
But to me this has been one of the best summers in the last 9 years.

Might be sacrilegious around these parts but I think the first McD off season was better. Turned a team of Gortat's, Scola's, Beasley's, O'Neal's and Shannon Brown's into a team that had good young talent and good future assets. The 48 wins might've been lightning in a bottle but I felt pretty damn good going into that season

We will see if Jones and Monty can beat those 48 wins. They certainly have more star power. I don't think 3 of those players had ever regularly started....Bledsoe, Frye and Plumlee. And then of course they lost Bledsoe half the year and he was replaced by Green who had never started.

Only starters from before I think were Dragic and Tucker.

The feeling was more that we're finally moving on from constant retooling and going into a proper rebuild and I thought we did it the right way. We came out with great chemistry, beat out all expectations and I think both McD and and Horny came in as runners up in EOTY and COTY respectively.

But you're right, this team definitely has more potential and has more star power. Dragic was good but wasn't a star until that season when he also made 3rd team All-NBA.

lilfishi22 wrote:

bwgood77 wrote:

lilfishi22 wrote:Might be sacrilegious around these parts but I think the first McD off season was better. Turned a team of Gortat's, Scola's, Beasley's, O'Neal's and Shannon Brown's into a team that had good young talent and good future assets. The 48 wins might've been lightning in a bottle but I felt pretty damn good going into that season

We will see if Jones and Monty can beat those 48 wins. They certainly have more star power. I don't think 3 of those players had ever regularly started....Bledsoe, Frye and Plumlee. And then of course they lost Bledsoe half the year and he was replaced by Green who had never started.

Only starters from before I think were Dragic and Tucker.

The feeling was more that we're finally moving on from constant retooling and going into a proper rebuild and I thought we did it the right way. We came out with great chemistry, beat out all expectations and I think both McD and and Horny came in as runners up in EOTY and COTY respectively.

But you're right, this team definitely has more potential and has more star power. Dragic was good but wasn't a star until that season when he also made 3rd team All-NBA.

If Ayton and Booker are as good as some think they are, they really should be able to have a similar season. Their supporting cast and depth is better (Plumlee and rookie Len vs Ayton/Baynes for starters).

Booker should be able to take a major step this year..he has offensive threats all around him and if he is a top tier player, and especially a great shooter, he should be able to take his game to star level. And Ayton should really be the star being taken #1 in a stacked draft ahead of Doncic. If that pick was deserving, I hope we see why.

bwgood77 wrote:

lilfishi22 wrote:

bwgood77 wrote:
We will see if Jones and Monty can beat those 48 wins. They certainly have more star power. I don't think 3 of those players had ever regularly started....Bledsoe, Frye and Plumlee. And then of course they lost Bledsoe half the year and he was replaced by Green who had never started.

Only starters from before I think were Dragic and Tucker.

The feeling was more that we're finally moving on from constant retooling and going into a proper rebuild and I thought we did it the right way. We came out with great chemistry, beat out all expectations and I think both McD and and Horny came in as runners up in EOTY and COTY respectively.

But you're right, this team definitely has more potential and has more star power. Dragic was good but wasn't a star until that season when he also made 3rd team All-NBA.

If Ayton and Booker are as good as some think they are, they really should be able to have a similar season. Their supporting cast and depth is better (Plumlee and rookie Len vs Ayton/Baynes for starters).

Booker should be able to take a major step this year..he has offensive threats all around him and if he is a top tier player, and especially a great shooter, he should be able to take his game to star level. And Ayton should really be the star being taken #1 in a stacked draft ahead of Doncic. If that pick was deserving, I hope we see why.

While I haven't agreed with every move your last paragrxxdx beaph is what I like about this offseason. They need to know what they have in those two and this year should give a real evaluation without the excuses that were built in the last couple few years. This is important because if either guy isn't what they think they can be then they need to pivot and find some guys who can be the main dude. I'm not saying this will be the end all be all peak years for these guys or that if they don't make the playoffs it's some type of failure but we should get a real picture of just how good they are.

I agree that I would have preferred them getting some more defenders but even that's a bit of a litmus test because realistically if they are really cornerstones ayton needs to take a step and protect the rim and Booker needs to at least hold his own and not be terrible. Because if we're being honest it's just not tennable that their two best players just suck at D and need to have a roster built around them that hides them. There's a very limited upside to that.

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WeekapaugGroove wrote:

bwgood77 wrote:

lilfishi22 wrote:The feeling was more that we're finally moving on from constant retooling and going into a proper rebuild and I thought we did it the right way. We came out with great chemistry, beat out all expectations and I think both McD and and Horny came in as runners up in EOTY and COTY respectively.

But you're right, this team definitely has more potential and has more star power. Dragic was good but wasn't a star until that season when he also made 3rd team All-NBA.

If Ayton and Booker are as good as some think they are, they really should be able to have a similar season. Their supporting cast and depth is better (Plumlee and rookie Len vs Ayton/Baynes for starters).

Booker should be able to take a major step this year..he has offensive threats all around him and if he is a top tier player, and especially a great shooter, he should be able to take his game to star level. And Ayton should really be the star being taken #1 in a stacked draft ahead of Doncic. If that pick was deserving, I hope we see why.

While I haven't agreed with every move your last paragrxxdx beaph is what I like about this offseason. They need to know what they have in those two and this year should give a real evaluation without the excuses that were built in the last couple few years. This is important because if either guy isn't what they think they can be then they need to pivot and find some guys who can be the main dude. I'm not saying this will be the end all be all peak years for these guys or that if they don't make the playoffs it's some type of failure but we should get a real picture of just how good they are.

I agree that I would have preferred them getting some more defenders but even that's a bit of a litmus test because realistically if they are really cornerstones ayton needs to take a step and protect the rim and Booker needs to at least hold his own and not be terrible. Because if we're being honest it's just not tennable that their two best players just suck at D and need to have a roster built around them that hides them. There's a very limited upside to that.

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I agree with you in the sense that if they are real stars you shouldn't need to surround them with defensive players (particularly Ayton) and I see twitter folks saying similar things.

But if they are TRULY surrounding them (or more paticularly, Ayton) with offensive guys because they think these guys can be defensive studs right now like people like David Nash, Max and I guess what you are saying here are thinking, I think that's a mistake. I mean if you take Ayton, you know that defense for him is an enormous work in process at best. Maybe I've just watched him longer and am not as confident as you guys with that. I think he might be able to get there, but I would have supplemented with more defensive help and not expected it immediately.

I don't think that's the case. I think they are building the team to maximise the current abilities of Booker and Ayton. I don't think we're expecting Booker and Ayton to turn into stud defensive players any time soon. It would've been great if we could bring on board a bunch of two way players to surround the two but that's easier said than done. It seems like they just went all out on offense and hope that the team would collectively be able to step up on the defensive end

lilfishi22 wrote:I don't think that's the case. I think they are building the team to maximise the current abilities of Booker and Ayton. I don't think we're expecting Booker and Ayton to turn into stud defensive players any time soon. It would've been great if we could bring on board a bunch of two way players to surround the two but that's easier said than done. It seems like they just went all out on offense and hope that the team would collectively be able to step up on the defensive end

Yeah, maybe that was a bit strawman, but I think with a team like this what happens is if we shoot well we could maybe compete with anyone, and it gives the false impression that we can compete with anyone at any time....but it's not at any time, it's only when you shoot well and/or the other team shoots poorly. Defense is what keeps you in games when you are not shooting so well.

Last year I think when we won some games down the stretch it was in part due to it being at the end of the season and teams settled into their playoff seedings and also taking us lightly. I think sometimes some wins can make us think we are better than we are overall at times.

I am glad we have Rubio and Jerome and of course Bridges so we dig in on defense at some positions, and with Baynes at the backup C position. I just hope that if we don't start off shooting well we don't get in big holes early again because of defense deficiencies.

It seems like people are believing Ayton is ready to be a defensive anchor so if the team really feels that way, and it appears they do based on their moves, it will be great to see. I know he has it in him, so if he has picked up a lot on that side to be able to recover quickly and play team/off ball defense and really be our defensive anchor, we could surprise some people.

LukasBMW wrote:And now that he was forced to sell to Balmer, the Clippers now won the Kawai and PG sweepstakes because Kawai realized that the Clippers are now the best run franchise in LA.

How are they the best run franchise? Some players made a decision to play together there and they are able to pay them is what I see.

I'm not saying they are run poorly or anything. It just seems more like its almost irrelevant because the players made the decision. Contracts don't matter, players sign a contract then demand trades and the owners go along with it.

Maybe in a year or two one or both of George and Leonard will be demanding more trades and some other teams will be so well run as to be chosen destinations.

Meanwhile in the same arena, the Lakers are now being passed on by major free agents because their management sucks.

They still got James and Davis. Even with evidently bad management they still got some of the best players in the game to go there.

And now, after another summer of underwhelming moves (seemingly motivated primarily by keeping expenses in line), I have to ask...how much longer are we going to put up with this asshat?

Yeah I Actually I find it disgusting the way the league is structured and cities pay so much money yet the people have virtually no control over anything. Its sad in a way to realize how loyal many fans are to the "Phoenix" Suns when in reality Sarver is the owner, not the people of Phoenix. Sarver can do whatever he wants including move the team and fans can't do anything about it.

I have a hard time seeing Ayton being ready to become a defensive anchor this season, let alone before his rookie contract ends. I think if he is to get there, it would be through incremental improvements on different areas of defense over multiple seasons. Having Baynes around I would hope would have the same effect on Ayton as PJ had on Booker. You know they went hard in practice and I think that's where a lot of Booker's toughness came from. There were no easy nights because PJ was there too during practice. Last season Ayton didn't really have a real solid big that knew how to use his body to punish him on both ends of the court during practice but now we do. So I do expect him to take another step forward in improving his defense and toughness but I don't expect him to become a defensive anchor.

I think raising our floor at least on one of the court is key if you're not able to do both at the same time. I think this offseason we've worked hard to raise our floor dramatically on offense. Sure we'll probably give up 120 a game but if we can score 120, we give ourselves a chance to win and at least have an identity (all out offense) we can have pride in and build off. What we get on the defensive end will be a bonus

Crives wrote:I didn’t like the value from most of our trades...
But to me this has been one of the best summers in the last 9 years.

Hard to argue considering

1) We addressed starting PG for the next three years
2) We addressed the PF position for at least a year and possible more since Saric will be a RFA
3) We addressed backup PF and C positions on short term contracts
4) We dumped players under contract that contributed to losing (Jackson, injury prone Warren)
5) Did a pick swap of Bucks pick for Jerome
6) All done with very limited cap space
7) Only gave up three second round picks and Melton.
8) Haven't overpaid for Oubre yet
9) Experienced head coach

On paper, this team is significantly better than what we trotted out on the court last season. Just getting rid of Jackson should make a big difference.

Once the suns figure out how to not look like a clown show from ownership to the front office....we will be good again

ryanball wrote:

LukasBMW wrote:And now that he was forced to sell to Balmer, the Clippers now won the Kawai and PG sweepstakes because Kawai realized that the Clippers are now the best run franchise in LA.

How are they the best run franchise? Some players made a decision to play together there and they are able to pay them is what I see.

I'm not saying they are run poorly or anything. It just seems more like its almost irrelevant because the players made the decision. Contracts don't matter, players sign a contract then demand trades and the owners go along with it.

Maybe in a year or two one or both of George and Leonard will be demanding more trades and some other teams will be so well run as to be chosen destinations.

Well they really did a pretty remarkable job going from Paul, Griffin, Redick, Jordan to this team quickly.

Paul wants to go to Houston. So they do a S&T, get a pick, Beverley and Lou...for a guy that was leaving. Redick leaves, but they sign Blake to a max...but maybe their whole goal was to sign him to a huge deal instead of lose him for nothing and then try and sign him later for more assets. Either way, they DID trade him to the Pistons for Tobias Harris, a couple other players and a couple picks. Then they take SGA in the draft.

Then they trade Harris for a first round Philly pick, the unprotected Heat pick we know well, and Landry Shamet.

So they added all these picks, Shamet, Beverley and Lou, and made cheap solid FA signings like Harrell and JaMychal Green.

But they had that stockpile of picks and young players, along with Gallinari who they had previously traded for as well to trade for the George.

Now of course this all hinged on Kawhi wanting to go to LA if they do the George trade. They probably don't do that trade if Kawhi isn't coming too.

But even without those guys, and this same team, they won 48 games after trading away all those big names, starting a couple rookie PGs, so they have a solid organization, development, coaching.

We try and start a couple of rookies, even both lottery picks (one being the #1 pick), along with Booker and win 19 games and blame it on being young. They start 2 rookies with Gallinari and Beverley and win 48.