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FINAL Grade Phoenix Suns Off-Season

Moderators: bwgood77, Qwigglez, Kerrsed, batsmasher, lilfishi22

What grade do you give Suns for their off-season?

10
3
5%
9
4
6%
8
8
12%
7
25
38%
6
11
17%
5
7
11%
4
3
5%
3
1
2%
2
2
3%
1
1
2%
 
Total votes: 65

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Re: Grade Phoenix Suns Off-Season 

Post#21 » by handsome salary » Wed Jul 31, 2019 7:54 pm

I give them a
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Re: Grade Phoenix Suns Off-Season 

Post#22 » by tor1234567 » Thu Aug 1, 2019 4:21 am

I'm actually interested in tuning in to watch some Suns games.

Šarić and Rubio are VERY slick passers, and those two alone will make the Suns very fun to watch.
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Re: Grade Phoenix Suns Off-Season 

Post#23 » by Moochthemonkey » Sat Aug 3, 2019 6:50 pm

I can't justify giving this offseason any more than a 5. Rubio was a needed signing albeit non-ideal (and overpaid). Giving away TJ Warren was possibly the worst move of any team this offseason. Saric might be a nice addition. All other moves are meh, the Suns needlessly Oprah'd away lower value assets and quantitatively, the transaction value was overall negative. But future success is contingent on how Booker/Ayton/Bridges/Oubre develop, not what (could have been) added this season. At least the proper pieces are now in place and the only albatross contract is expiring/tradeable.
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Re: Grade Phoenix Suns Off-Season 

Post#24 » by Sugarless » Sun Aug 4, 2019 12:43 pm

I'll never understand how some of you guys think Rubio is overpaid. I think it's just one of those things that some people continue to repeat until it sticks, without actually checking if it's true at all.

These are the starting PGs (when healthy) on this league that are not on rookie deals, their age by the end of this year, and their salary next season:

1. John Wall - 29yo - 42.8M
2. Russell Westbrook - 31yo - 41.4M
3. Stephen Curry - 31yo - 40.2M
4. Chris Paul - 34yo - 39.9M
5. Kemba Walker - 29yo - 35.2M
6. Kyrie Irving - 27yo - 34.1M
7. Kyle Lowry - 33yo - 33.3M
8. Mike Conley - 32yo - 30.5M
9. D'Angelo Russell - 23yo - 29.3M
10. Damian Lillard - 29yo - 28.0M (new extension kicks in at 31yo, at an average 49M per year)
11. Jrue Holiday - 29yo - 26.4M
12. Malcolm Brogdon - 27yo - 21.25M
13. Jeff Teague - 31yo - 19.0M
14. Terry Rozier - 25yo - 18.9M
15. Eric Bledsoe - 30yo - 17.5M
16. Goran Dragic - 33yo - 17.0M
17. Ricky Rubio - 29yo - 17.0M
18. Reggie Jackson - 29yo - 16.0M
19. Patrick Beverley - 31yo - 13.3M
20. DJ Augustin - 32yo - 7.2M
21. Rajon Rondo - 33yo - 2.6M

Average salary for a veteran starting PG: 25.3M

The rest of the starting PGs, all on rookie deals:

Ben Simmons (already signed an extension at 34M/year starting next season)
Jamal Murray (same as Simmons, extended at 34M/year)
De'Aaron Fox
Dennis Smith Jr.
Trae Young
Luka Doncic
Collin Sexton
Ja Morant
Coby White

You could add maybe Elfrid Payton instead of DSJ and Satoransky instead of White to start the season (not long term). We could also see Lebron at PG and Rondo off the bench.

In any case, as it stands right now Rubio's salary is 17th out 21 for veteran starting PGs with not one of the players below him being a better floor general, plus he's well under the average salary for his role and experience, and to make it better there are only 4 guys younger than him on that list. And that's not even taking into account how most of those salaries will increase over the next few years, while his will stay at 17M per season.

Hopefully people will look and think again if they still believe Rubio is overpaid.
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Re: Grade Phoenix Suns Off-Season 

Post#25 » by Crives » Sun Aug 4, 2019 3:22 pm

Sugarless wrote:I'll never understand how some of you guys think Rubio is overpaid. I think it's just one of those things that some people continue to repeat until it sticks, without actually checking if it's true at all.

These are the starting PGs (when healthy) on this league that are not on rookie deals, their age by the end of this year, and their salary next season:

1. John Wall - 29yo - 42.8M
2. Russell Westbrook - 31yo - 41.4M
3. Stephen Curry - 31yo - 40.2M
4. Chris Paul - 34yo - 39.9M
5. Kemba Walker - 29yo - 35.2M
6. Kyrie Irving - 27yo - 34.1M
7. Kyle Lowry - 33yo - 33.3M
8. Mike Conley - 32yo - 30.5M
9. D'Angelo Russell - 23yo - 29.3M
10. Damian Lillard - 29yo - 28.0M (new extension kicks in at 31yo, at an average 49M per year)
11. Jrue Holiday - 29yo - 26.4M
12. Malcolm Brogdon - 27yo - 21.25M
13. Jeff Teague - 31yo - 19.0M
14. Terry Rozier - 25yo - 18.9M
15. Eric Bledsoe - 30yo - 17.5M
16. Goran Dragic - 33yo - 17.0M
17. Ricky Rubio - 29yo - 17.0M
18. Reggie Jackson - 29yo - 16.0M
19. Patrick Beverley - 31yo - 13.3M
20. DJ Augustin - 32yo - 7.2M
21. Rajon Rondo - 33yo - 2.6M

Average salary for a veteran starting PG: 25.3M

The rest of the starting PGs, all on rookie deals:

Ben Simmons (already signed an extension at 34M/year starting next season)
Jamal Murray (same as Simmons, extended at 34M/year)
De'Aaron Fox
Dennis Smith Jr.
Trae Young
Luka Doncic
Collin Sexton
Ja Morant
Coby White

You could add maybe Elfrid Payton instead of DSJ and Satoransky instead of White to start the season (not long term). We could also see Lebron at PG and Rondo off the bench.

In any case, as it stands right now Rubio's salary is 17th out 21 for veteran starting PGs with not one of the players below him being a better floor general, plus he's well under the average salary for his role and experience, and to make it better there are only 4 guys younger than him on that list. And that's not even taking into account how most of those salaries will increase over the next few years, while his will stay at 17M per season.

Hopefully people will look and think again if they still believe Rubio is overpaid.


I think the biggest issue with Rubio is that the league is trending more and more towards shooting.

I think we definitely overpaid a few million... but it was worth it and the price to pay to get a bigger FA to come to PHX with our current reputation.
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Re: Grade Phoenix Suns Off-Season 

Post#26 » by Moochthemonkey » Sun Aug 4, 2019 7:31 pm

Sugarless wrote:I'll never understand how some of you guys think Rubio is overpaid. I think it's just one of those things that some people continue to repeat until it sticks, without actually checking if it's true at all.

These are the starting PGs (when healthy) on this league that are not on rookie deals, their age by the end of this year, and their salary next season:

1. John Wall - 29yo - 42.8M
2. Russell Westbrook - 31yo - 41.4M
3. Stephen Curry - 31yo - 40.2M
4. Chris Paul - 34yo - 39.9M
5. Kemba Walker - 29yo - 35.2M
6. Kyrie Irving - 27yo - 34.1M
7. Kyle Lowry - 33yo - 33.3M
8. Mike Conley - 32yo - 30.5M
9. D'Angelo Russell - 23yo - 29.3M
10. Damian Lillard - 29yo - 28.0M (new extension kicks in at 31yo, at an average 49M per year)
11. Jrue Holiday - 29yo - 26.4M
12. Malcolm Brogdon - 27yo - 21.25M
13. Jeff Teague - 31yo - 19.0M
14. Terry Rozier - 25yo - 18.9M
15. Eric Bledsoe - 30yo - 17.5M
16. Goran Dragic - 33yo - 17.0M
17. Ricky Rubio - 29yo - 17.0M
18. Reggie Jackson - 29yo - 16.0M
19. Patrick Beverley - 31yo - 13.3M
20. DJ Augustin - 32yo - 7.2M
21. Rajon Rondo - 33yo - 2.6M

Average salary for a veteran starting PG: 25.3M

The rest of the starting PGs, all on rookie deals:

Ben Simmons (already signed an extension at 34M/year starting next season)
Jamal Murray (same as Simmons, extended at 34M/year)
De'Aaron Fox
Dennis Smith Jr.
Trae Young
Luka Doncic
Collin Sexton
Ja Morant
Coby White

You could add maybe Elfrid Payton instead of DSJ and Satoransky instead of White to start the season (not long term). We could also see Lebron at PG and Rondo off the bench.

In any case, as it stands right now Rubio's salary is 17th out 21 for veteran starting PGs with not one of the players below him being a better floor general, plus he's well under the average salary for his role and experience, and to make it better there are only 4 guys younger than him on that list. And that's not even taking into account how most of those salaries will increase over the next few years, while his will stay at 17M per season.

Hopefully people will look and think again if they still believe Rubio is overpaid.



My opinion hasn't changed much but good research which puts Rubio's contract into better perspective, so +1.
The first 11 players are all-stars.
Brogdon was probably the consensus signing.
If Bledsoe was never here, I think he's the better signing. I would even prefer a 4 year younger Goran Dragic for his shooting. (for reference Goran Dragic and Gerald Green was a decent combo).
I would even prefer Patrick Beverley, sacrifice some passing for equal or greater defense and better 3pt shooting. Unlike Rubio, he also doesn't need the ball in has hands to be effective on offense.
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Re: Grade Phoenix Suns Off-Season 

Post#27 » by Sugarless » Sun Aug 4, 2019 9:04 pm

Moochthemonkey wrote:My opinion hasn't changed much but good research which puts Rubio's contract into better perspective, so +1.
The first 11 players are all-stars.
Brogdon was probably the consensus signing.
If Bledsoe was never here, I think he's the better signing. I would even prefer a 4 year younger Goran Dragic for his shooting. (for reference Goran Dragic and Gerald Green was a decent combo).
I would even prefer Patrick Beverley, sacrifice some passing for equal or greater defense and better 3pt shooting. Unlike Rubio, he also doesn't need the ball in has hands to be effective on offense.


I fully undestand someone liking one player over another, even if to me Rubio is a better player than half of that list. It's a matter of preference after all, and Ricky's a very special type of PG, he's not everyone's cup of tea, especially in this league.

But when it comes to his contract, which is relative to his role and experience, it's pretty hard to argue he's overpaid. He's clearly a starting PG, he's a young-ish veteran compared to his peers, and as you can see he's definitely on the low end in terms of salary for someone in his position.

PS: I would also understand someone preferring Satoransky at 10M over Rubio at 17M, for example. Having watched both for years, I think Rubio's 10x the player that Sato will ever be, but if you don't care that much about some of the things that Ricky brings to the table, you may prefer a cheaper guy who can make a simple pass and hit the open three.
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Re: Grade Phoenix Suns Off-Season 

Post#28 » by Damkac » Sun Aug 4, 2019 9:51 pm

Utah Jazz was happy to let Rubio go. You can say he fit Suns roster better than he fit with Jazz but that is not a good sign.
How many other teams were willing to sign him? Did Suns needed to give him so much money with just a few teams that may be interested in him?
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Re: Grade Phoenix Suns Off-Season 

Post#29 » by dmastro32 » Sun Aug 4, 2019 10:58 pm

Damkac wrote:Utah Jazz was happy to let Rubio go. You can say he fit Suns roster better than he fit with Jazz but that is not a good sign.
How many other teams were willing to sign him? Did Suns needed to give him so much money with just a few teams that may be interested in him?



How many other teams have mike Conley and Donovan Mitchell that can both play point and are probably better then Rubio?
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Re: Grade Phoenix Suns Off-Season 

Post#30 » by Sugarless » Sun Aug 4, 2019 11:30 pm

Damkac wrote:Utah Jazz was happy to let Rubio go. You can say he fit Suns roster better than he fit with Jazz but that is not a good sign.
How many other teams were willing to sign him? Did Suns needed to give him so much money with just a few teams that may be interested in him?


That's not a very strong argument.

First off, despite being a so-so fit offensively, the Jazz were a 50-win team with Rubio in the West, and he was their best player over the last two post-seasons, so I don't know about the "signs", but the facts are pretty darn good if you ask me. Secondly, they let Rubio go to get Mike Conley, who's a pretty good PG himself. It would only make sense to talk about that as a negative if they had let him go to start Dante freakin' Exum or someone along those lines (and then succeeded as a team), not an excellent all-around floor general who's a capable playmaker and a better scorer, as well as a better fit with Mitchell and their offensive system.

And frankly, the Suns weren't in a position to get Rubio on a bigger discount. The Pacers, who are a playoff team, were going to pay him in the same range, and it was a done deal until Bogdanovic signed with Utah and Indiana had the chance to sign-and-trade for Brogdon, who's also a nice fit with Oladipo when he returns. The Wolves also wanted him back if they couldn't get Russell. The Bulls were interested and only later signed Satoransky. The Magic don't even have a starting caliber PG. If the Suns had then decided to lowball him, Rubio would have no reason to sign with them. If you want a true starting PG you have to pay him his worth (and again, his salary is still well below average at his position / role). You can't offer him way less and expect him to sign unless you are offering him a perfect situation in exchange, and that means contending, not trying to make it out of the bottom of the league standings.

I'd say things worked out pretty well for both parts in the end. I always thought Rubio would be perfect on the Suns, and I'm glad he's in Phoenix now. If he has the season I expect, he's going to look like a bargain next summer, when he's still at 17M and the average salary for a starting PG goes up to 27M or higher.
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Re: Grade Phoenix Suns Off-Season 

Post#31 » by lilfishi22 » Mon Aug 5, 2019 12:09 am

Crives wrote:
Sugarless wrote:I'll never understand how some of you guys think Rubio is overpaid. I think it's just one of those things that some people continue to repeat until it sticks, without actually checking if it's true at all.

These are the starting PGs (when healthy) on this league that are not on rookie deals, their age by the end of this year, and their salary next season:

1. John Wall - 29yo - 42.8M
2. Russell Westbrook - 31yo - 41.4M
3. Stephen Curry - 31yo - 40.2M
4. Chris Paul - 34yo - 39.9M
5. Kemba Walker - 29yo - 35.2M
6. Kyrie Irving - 27yo - 34.1M
7. Kyle Lowry - 33yo - 33.3M
8. Mike Conley - 32yo - 30.5M
9. D'Angelo Russell - 23yo - 29.3M
10. Damian Lillard - 29yo - 28.0M (new extension kicks in at 31yo, at an average 49M per year)
11. Jrue Holiday - 29yo - 26.4M
12. Malcolm Brogdon - 27yo - 21.25M
13. Jeff Teague - 31yo - 19.0M
14. Terry Rozier - 25yo - 18.9M
15. Eric Bledsoe - 30yo - 17.5M
16. Goran Dragic - 33yo - 17.0M
17. Ricky Rubio - 29yo - 17.0M
18. Reggie Jackson - 29yo - 16.0M
19. Patrick Beverley - 31yo - 13.3M
20. DJ Augustin - 32yo - 7.2M
21. Rajon Rondo - 33yo - 2.6M

Average salary for a veteran starting PG: 25.3M

The rest of the starting PGs, all on rookie deals:

Ben Simmons (already signed an extension at 34M/year starting next season)
Jamal Murray (same as Simmons, extended at 34M/year)
De'Aaron Fox
Dennis Smith Jr.
Trae Young
Luka Doncic
Collin Sexton
Ja Morant
Coby White

You could add maybe Elfrid Payton instead of DSJ and Satoransky instead of White to start the season (not long term). We could also see Lebron at PG and Rondo off the bench.

In any case, as it stands right now Rubio's salary is 17th out 21 for veteran starting PGs with not one of the players below him being a better floor general, plus he's well under the average salary for his role and experience, and to make it better there are only 4 guys younger than him on that list. And that's not even taking into account how most of those salaries will increase over the next few years, while his will stay at 17M per season.

Hopefully people will look and think again if they still believe Rubio is overpaid.


I think the biggest issue with Rubio is that the league is trending more and more towards shooting.

I think we definitely overpaid a few million... but it was worth it and the price to pay to get a bigger FA to come to PHX with our current reputation.

This and also the fact that the other PG's in his salary range are also considered overpaid (Dragic, Reggie Jackson, Rozier, Teague and arguably Bledsoe) and I don't think Rubio is head and shoulders better (or worse) than these guys either. So he's definitely not significantly overpaid but I can see why a lot of people see it as at least an overpay by a few millions. I'm not complaining too much though since he does have floor lifting abilities.
alamin330 wrote:This draft reminds me of the 2003 draft.
Lebron - Zion, Barrett like Melo, wade like Culver, garland like tj ford, hunter like bosh, white like Barbosa, Clarke like David West. I think this draft is actually going to be deeper though
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Re: Grade Phoenix Suns Off-Season 

Post#32 » by ChrisInAZ » Mon Aug 5, 2019 1:40 am

Fire Kokoskov: 3

Hired Monty: 6

Dumping Warren for space with the 32nd: 0 ...no words

Trade down for C.Johnson & Saric: 5? 8? 3? ...Seems Johnson is going to be a rotation player very soon. Saric already is one, and may be just a one year rental

Sign Ricky Rubio: 6 ...he's a true NBA point guard (yea!). Let's off a bunch of upside to sign him (boo!)

Traded 2020 Mil 1st for Baynes and Jerome: 5? ..Baynes seems like deadline tradebait, which should be a good thing, but I liked Holmes as a long term player.

Trade Jackson, Melton and two 2nd's for a buyout and Carter: 3 ...all up to Carter to make this an ugly "3"

Re-sign Oubre: 6 ...Not as bad as I thought it would be number-wise. It's a tradeable contract right away, and Oubre may become something special, despite my doubts.

Sign Kaminsky: 5 ...I'd rather they had just brought back Bender instead, especially considering the new coach and this "raising of the floor" strategy.

Sign Diallo: 7 ...good pick up


My rating for the Suns off season moves? A solid 4 :-?
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Re: Grade Phoenix Suns Off-Season 

Post#33 » by lilfishi22 » Mon Sep 30, 2019 1:49 am

A week away from official training camp, just over a week until the first preseason game and less than a month until the official start of the season. Our roster is pretty much final now with perhaps some final decisions to be made on the fringe players.

Now that we've had plenty of time to stew and wait for most of the offseason moves to be made, what is your grade now? Has it changed? Hijacked sasquatch's thread rather than creating a new one

As a quick recap of the key offseason moves (from BRef) and my final rating
- Fire Igor Kokoskov - 3
- Hire Monty Williams - 6
- Traded down from the #6 pick to Minny for the 11th pick (Cam Johnson) and Saric - 6
- Salary dump TJ Warren - 2
- Traded a 2020 FRP (top 7 protected) for Baynes and the 24th pick (Ty Jerome) - 6
- Drafted Jalen Lecque - 5
- Traded JJ + Melton + 2 SRP for Korver (bought out) and Jevon Carter - 3
- Signed Rubio to 3yrs $51m - 7
- Resigned Kelly Oubre to 2yrs $30m - 7
- Signed Frank Kaminsky to 2yrs $9.77m - 6
- Signed Cheick Diallo to 2yrs minimum level deal (2nd year is a team option) - 7

Overall rating: overall, I'm going to end the offseason with a 6. I wasn't a blown away with any moves we've made but I'm overall a little more optimistic about where we are compared to the previous season because we now have a full roster and depth at each position. It's all about going out there and producing now
alamin330 wrote:This draft reminds me of the 2003 draft.
Lebron - Zion, Barrett like Melo, wade like Culver, garland like tj ford, hunter like bosh, white like Barbosa, Clarke like David West. I think this draft is actually going to be deeper though
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Re: FINAL Grade Phoenix Suns Off-Season 

Post#34 » by handsome salary » Mon Sep 30, 2019 2:31 am

I voted 2. I hope it's a 8-10. I went with how other teams in the Western conference have improved and how **** this team has been run for quite a while. Prove me wrong, prove me wrong.

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