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2019 season speculation

Moderators: bwgood77, lilfishi22, Kerrsed, Qwigglez

This summer if you could only keep one, Baynes at $10mil + or Saric at $15mil +, who do you choose?

Baynes at $10 million
35
70%
Saric at $15 million
15
30%
 
Total votes: 50

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Re: 2019 season speculation: Just one more week til season opener OMG!! 

Post#641 » by bwoolf2 » Fri Oct 18, 2019 11:42 pm

bwgood77 wrote:
Crives wrote:Fun stat.. we won more games then the Mavs post all star break last year.


They also traded like 3 of their starters (DeAndre Jordan, DSJr and Wesley Matthews) in that trade and got back an injured star who didn't play. And then traded their other starter (besides Doncic) in Harrison Barnes to Sacramento for 2nd year player Justin Jackson who was/is still in development. JJ Barea had also gone down with a season ending injury.

They were playing with a skeleton crew post all star break. Tim Hardaway jr who they got in the trade was out like the last 10 games of the season too.


well the suns have played with a skeleton crew due to poor drafts and management for years so cant give the mavs a pass there
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Re: 2019 season speculation: Just one more week til season opener OMG!! 

Post#642 » by Scutt » Fri Oct 18, 2019 11:52 pm

The amount of Ayton hate on here is unreal. Trying to perceive and project Aytons personality, passion for the game, and ability to improve as a basketball player based on the quotes he has made as a 20 and 21 year old is probably not a good idea.

Some of you are treating him like a finished product, which he is not. He has areas that need needs to improve on, but the guy averaged 16 and 10 on incredible efficiency as a rookie. He was doing that with no real PG, teammates that couldn't even pass him the ball, and a coach that had very little interest in running plays for him. He also showed noticeable improvement on defense throughout the year. To do that has to take some determination and passion on his part.


I remember hearing that Amare made a speech in to his teammates about carrying them on his broad shoulders or something like that before the 06 07 season. This was to a group of guys who made it to the Western Conference finals without him the previous year. Young NBA players are just like all young people, and most have big egos, so they are going to say stupid stuff. Amare played with all the passion and fire you could ask for, and he always talked about working on his game, but the dude never tried to improve on defense or rebounding. Every player is going to have some flaws that they just don't improve upon. I bet Dallas fans are hoping Doncic can be a more consistent 3 point shooter and improve his free throw percentage. Hopefully it happens, maybe it wont. There is no reason Ayton cant develop into an adequate defender and possibly an elite offensive player. His goofy personality really shouldn't have any bearing on that. By all accounts he is receptive to coaching and wants to get better on both ends of the court. Give the dude some time before rushing to judgement.

At the very least, everyone should take solace in the fact that if Ayton doesn't turn into a superstar, the Suns wont have to pay him like one. Unlike another player on the Suns roster, who is getting paid a max contract and is going into his 5th year, but no one seems to care at all that he literally doesn't even try on defense most of the time. I guess that is the elephant in the room. Or maybe its the reason why so many want Ayton to suddenly change his stripes and become a defensive anchor. What good are you if you cant cover the flaws of the Golden child?
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Re: 2019 season speculation: Just one more week til season opener OMG!! 

Post#643 » by bwgood77 » Sat Oct 19, 2019 12:13 am

bwoolf2 wrote:
bwgood77 wrote:
Crives wrote:Fun stat.. we won more games then the Mavs post all star break last year.


They also traded like 3 of their starters (DeAndre Jordan, DSJr and Wesley Matthews) in that trade and got back an injured star who didn't play. And then traded their other starter (besides Doncic) in Harrison Barnes to Sacramento for 2nd year player Justin Jackson who was/is still in development. JJ Barea had also gone down with a season ending injury.

They were playing with a skeleton crew post all star break. Tim Hardaway jr who they got in the trade was out like the last 10 games of the season too.


well the suns have played with a skeleton crew due to poor drafts and management for years so cant give the mavs a pass there


True, but some were high on Oubre last year, particularly after the all star break, and Ayton also had Booker, Tyler Johnson, and Bridges after the break. Doncic was more or less playing the Booker role with rookie Jalen Brunson, Dorian Finney-Smith, Dwight Powell and Kleber. Kleber and Brunson are both decent but maybe not the best 2nd and 3rd best players. If thsoe were there best players Ayton was playing with he may have done worse than Doncic.
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Re: 2019 season speculation: Just one more week til season opener OMG!! 

Post#644 » by denial » Sat Oct 19, 2019 2:07 am

I was gonna vote 10 wins. But let’s face it, everyone has a bad night sometimes.
9!

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Re: 2019 season speculation: Just one more week til season opener OMG!! 

Post#645 » by BobbieL » Sat Oct 19, 2019 2:51 am

I think Hollinger and Lowe are too hung up on how the Suns got to this roster instead of reviewing the roster and analyzing that. Overkill about losing second round picks for one of the youngest rosters inthe league.

I think 34-36 wins.
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Re: 2019 season speculation: Just one more week til season opener OMG!! 

Post#646 » by bwgood77 » Sat Oct 19, 2019 3:57 am

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Re: 2019 season speculation: Just one more week til season opener OMG!! 

Post#647 » by SideSwipe » Sat Oct 19, 2019 5:12 am

Seeing Sabonis might be available. Fit could be a bit tricky, but that guy is a talent waiting to blow up. He shows positive rating on O and D in RPM and BPM, has gotten better each year, and shows great toughness. I still think we need more rebounding this year, and Sabas is showing great rebounding skills. 9/gm in 24 minutes. Give me that and Rubio/Sabas pick and roll...please. Might mean losing Saric/Baynes and this years protected pick, but that's a guy I would spend it on even though he is restricted next offseason.
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Re: 2019 season speculation: Just one more week til season opener OMG!! 

Post#648 » by Qwigglez » Sat Oct 19, 2019 11:32 am

SideSwipe wrote:Seeing Sabonis might be available. Fit could be a bit tricky, but that guy is a talent waiting to blow up. He shows positive rating on O and D in RPM and BPM, has gotten better each year, and shows great toughness. I still think we need more rebounding this year, and Sabas is showing great rebounding skills. 9/gm in 24 minutes. Give me that and Rubio/Sabas pick and roll...please. Might mean losing Saric/Baynes and this years protected pick, but that's a guy I would spend it on even though he is restricted next offseason.



The Pacers kind of owe us one though...
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Re: 2019 season speculation: Just one more week til season opener OMG!! 

Post#649 » by Crives » Sat Oct 19, 2019 1:50 pm

I think I would rather run Kaminsky at backup center..
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Re: 2019 season speculation: Just one more week til season opener OMG!! 

Post#650 » by Saberestar » Sat Oct 19, 2019 5:00 pm

bwgood77 wrote:It's strange to see so many people bashing Ayton so badly and a bunch talking about trading him for Towns before we've even played 1 game.

I'm used to seeing people more pumped up going into the season and not getting down until 10 games in (or in some years 2 or 3).

But a second year player before he's played getting this much negative talk, and talk of trading him, especially considering our draft picks the two years before, is a bit bizarre.

The thing about Ayton is that he is our first and only #1 pick in the history of the franchise.

The expectations are pretty high for him, no one would be discussing his mistakes if would have been around the #5 pick in the draft .

This 2018 draft looks special... so many potential All Stars. The Suns bet on Ayton badly because there were another big time prospects and FOR NOW at least two of them (Doncic and Trae) look better players than him.

Another couple of prospects from that same draft (Bagley and JJJ) are at least as good as Ayton. Not better...but not worse. And I am pretty sure that not too many fans from their teams will trade any of these two players for Ayton.

So that is why Ayton is not considered untouchable in trades for some fans and we are a bit skeptical about him becoming a  franchise player in the next future. When you select a player with your #1 pick you expect that player to be the best one in his draft class.

He can improve, obviously, but that can be said too about Doncic, Trae, Bagley and JJJ.

We will see, this second season is gonna be huge for this project around him and Booker. I have hope yet.
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Re: 2019 season speculation: Just one more week til season opener OMG!! 

Post#651 » by sunskerr » Sat Oct 19, 2019 10:45 pm

Some more reasons people are impatient with Ayton:

-He doesn’t have ANY dribble moves at all.
-Doesn’t stretch the floor
-not an aware help defender

These are skills that are basically required to be a superstar in the league. It’s going to take a long time for him to develop these skills if he does at all.

So part of the reason people wanted to draft Doncic, and are down on Ayton compared to Trae, is that those guys have those sorts of skills and are elite or approaching elite in them already. I think some posters around here or maybe it was on reddit have said something like this: the number one pick should be able to dribble a damn basketball.

I still think it’s great he averaged 16/10 as a rookie because it shows he’ll never ever be a bust. But he’s got a whole lot on his plate, and has to show more than just rim running and putbacks. He has more work to do to become an elite player than Doncic and Trae.
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Re: 2019 season speculation: Just one more week til season opener OMG!! 

Post#652 » by PharmD » Sun Oct 20, 2019 12:28 am

First gif of the year!

Image

-There's a lot of shooting on the floor and it creates a lot of space as the Nuggets don't want to leave Booker, Cam, or Frank
-Quick, decisive, simple attack leads to a dunk
-Shows Rubio's preference to assist via bounce pass instead of lob (Ayton sees the lane and expects it to end in a lob initially)
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Re: 2019 season speculation: Just one more week til season opener OMG!! 

Post#653 » by Blonde » Sun Oct 20, 2019 12:40 am

I just posted on the fantasy thread but IDK if it gets a lot of traffic. If you want to join a fantasy h2h 12 team league on espn for $20 buy-in send me a message with your email. Drafting tomorrow 3 p.m. AZ time/6 p.m. EST. Still a few spots left to fill.

Mods feel free to delete if wrong forum.
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Re: 2019 season speculation: Just one more week til season opener OMG!! 

Post#654 » by GoodBehavior » Sun Oct 20, 2019 5:15 am

bwgood77 wrote:
bwoolf2 wrote:
bwgood77 wrote:
They also traded like 3 of their starters (DeAndre Jordan, DSJr and Wesley Matthews) in that trade and got back an injured star who didn't play. And then traded their other starter (besides Doncic) in Harrison Barnes to Sacramento for 2nd year player Justin Jackson who was/is still in development. JJ Barea had also gone down with a season ending injury.

They were playing with a skeleton crew post all star break. Tim Hardaway jr who they got in the trade was out like the last 10 games of the season too.


well the suns have played with a skeleton crew due to poor drafts and management for years so cant give the mavs a pass there


True, but some were high on Oubre last year, particularly after the all star break, and Ayton also had Booker, Tyler Johnson, and Bridges after the break. Doncic was more or less playing the Booker role with rookie Jalen Brunson, Dorian Finney-Smith, Dwight Powell and Kleber. Kleber and Brunson are both decent but maybe not the best 2nd and 3rd best players. If thsoe were there best players Ayton was playing with he may have done worse than Doncic.


Bwgood, I think I have had enough of your duplicity. I think it is about time, someone stood up to you and lilfishi22. I was hoping someone would call you and him out already. That hasn't happened: maybe people are intimidated by your and lilfishi22's Moderator Status. Let me assure you that your standing on this forum means nothing to me. I cannot no longer stand by while the two of you continue unchecked and sit on your ivory tower, smug and unscathed. What needs to be said, have to be said:

a. Moderators are largely responsible for the irrational DA-bashing

When I say moderators, I am mostly referring to you (Bwgood) and lilfishi22 (not guys like Qwigglez). You both have an unhealthy obsession with the 2018 draft. Everyone knows your preference. Last season's toxic environment was because of the debate on who should have been picked in 2018. If you go back and read the discussion, lilifishi22 is right in the middle of it all (one of the chief instigator) and while you were not as overt as him, you were constantly stoking the fire: criticizing literally everything the 20 year old damn ROOKIE did while apologetically forgiving (or ignoring) the shortcomings of other draftees.

The DA-bashing got so bad, that it was finally reigned in, partly by you ... except, you and him start deploying passive-aggressive tactics. These tactics have the same results, and we're back to square one of bashing DA again, except you and him are smart to not mention the other draftee's name, and keep subtly undermining DA ad nauseam.

b. But the Passive-Aggressive nonsense is fooling no one. The Duplicity is insulting

I have more respect for guys like Frank Lee, who are obvious and upfront. You can hate his opinion but you have to at least respect the matter he goes about it. What you and lilfishi22 do is disturbing. You and him pretend to be "objective", "rational", "unbiased", "I only want whats best for the team" and deploy questionable tactics. You and him criticize DA, 9 out of 10 posts, but you make sure to have one "positive" thing to say about him, in 1 of the 10 post, to give people the fake appearance: "see how objective I am. I mention this one positive. I am definitely not bashing him." The two of you are fooling nobody.

It gets worse. Lilifishi22 had a positive comment on the Cam Johnson, but threw in a dig at DA. He commented on a completely unremarkable stats: Cam got to the line 4 times (who cares?) in four games and then make sure you know that DA had zero. The subterfuge is strong.

I have glanced at most of your and his' Mavericks-related postings. You both are unequivocally Maverick-apologists. To deny otherwise is foolish, people have a right to question your objectivity and your allegiance. If you and him can't divorce yourself from what occurred during the 2018 draft and still lived in some strange past hoping to be proven correct on your 2018 draft insights, you and him should not have the right to moderate a SUNS FORUM.

There have been a number of positive DA's post or posting that defends the kid. On the majority of them, YOU are the one that constant nitpick on something to undermine the underling positive messages. This week's postings are a perfect example. Of course, you have to say something positive in 1 out of the 10 posts to keep up that "unbiased" mirage. The worse part is when you act "surprised" that people are bashing the kid, all the while you nip in the bud anything that is positive about him. That is duplicity. So let not pretend to be "surprised" that people are bashing him, when the top moderator (the most influential poster, I might add) is constantly bringing him down.

c. You and lilfishi22 are the worst fans I have seen in my 37 years. Any modicum of success this team has, I hope you enjoy none of it. It would be an injustice to all the long suffering Suns fans for the both of you to enjoy any of this team success

Because of your tenure and the relationships you forged over the years, a number of people will come to your defense. Please spare me the "he means well" or "you're wrong, he's a good dude. you're overreacting." Also please spar me the mental gymnastic of justifying or rationalizing your and his past behaviors. I am pretty sure if you look hard enough, you can try to convince people that I am wrong and that you were badly misinterpreted. I don't care.

Nor do I want to engage in a dialogue with either of you on this matter, because I am convinced neither of you are going to see the light and admit to your transgressions. This post is for people who are so fed up with your and his toxic antic but were afraid to voice it. I have never come across such vitriolic and deceitful behaviors. I stand by my comment that you and him are godawful and terrible Suns fans and while I hope you both lead meaningful lives outside the game of NBA, I don't think it's right for you to enjoy any of this team success. It would be plain wrong.
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Re: 2019 season speculation: Just one more week til season opener OMG!! 

Post#655 » by Crives » Sun Oct 20, 2019 5:25 am

How would you set the player rotations?

After preseason I am liking something like this for the 1st half.

Rotation 1 (0-6)
PG - Rubio
SG - Booker
SF - Kelly (would rather start Bridges but this is inevitable)
PF - Saric
C - Ayton

Rotation 2 (6-10)
PG - Booker
SG - Bridges
SF - Oubre
PF - Saric
C - Baynes

Rotation 3 (10 - 12)
PG - Rubio
SG - Tyler
SF - Bridges
PF - Frank
C - Ayton

Rotation 4 (12-17)
PG - Rubio
SG - Tyler
SF - Cam
PF - Frank
C - Ayton

Rotation 5 (17-21)
PG - Booker
SG - Cam
SF - Oubre
PF - Dario
C - Baynes

Rotation 6 (21-24)
PG - Rubio
SG - Booker
SF - Oubre
PF - Dario
C - Ayton
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Re: 2019 season speculation: Just one more week til season opener OMG!! 

Post#656 » by sunsbg » Sun Oct 20, 2019 7:46 am

PharmD wrote:First gif of the year!

Image

-There's a lot of shooting on the floor and it creates a lot of space as the Nuggets don't want to leave Booker, Cam, or Frank
-Quick, decisive, simple attack leads to a dunk
-Shows Rubio's preference to assist via bounce pass instead of lob (Ayton sees the lane and expects it to end in a lob initially)


Shows also how poorly a PnR is defended by most NBA teams. Grant and Plumlee don't have a clue what they are doing. Plumlee or any other good defensive big doesn't stand a chance to stop Deandre from scoring. Someone with good fundamentals like Doncic is exploiting it all day, just watch some Mavs games. That's why I hope Rubio/Ayton work to master the PnR and see more plays like this.

All in all, it's the preseason, but this play is an example of bad D than anything.
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Re: 2019 season speculation: Just one more week til season opener OMG!! 

Post#657 » by sunsbg » Sun Oct 20, 2019 8:40 am

Regarding Ayton's bashing, the glass is half-empty certainly prevails over the half-full argument on this board. And yes, it's a bit toxic, when done by the people with most posts, though it's perfectly fine they have an opinion. Just don't see how it helps with bringing more people here, which I suppose is a goal of a moderator.

As a glass half-full fan, I prefer to look at Ayton as a great scorer(yes, that's possible even without 3pt shot, which he'll probably add) and also a good passer(did someone mention his pass to Kaminsky in Denver game, or we prefer only talking down his D). His 1-on-1 D is not bad at all, he used his body so well against Jokic, who tried to post him up. Now his team D is obviously not on this level, but I would blame coaching as well if he doesn't improve there.
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Re: 2019 season speculation: Just one more week til season opener OMG!! 

Post#658 » by MathiasPW » Sun Oct 20, 2019 11:49 am

GoodBehavior wrote:
bwgood77 wrote:
bwoolf2 wrote:
well the suns have played with a skeleton crew due to poor drafts and management for years so cant give the mavs a pass there


True, but some were high on Oubre last year, particularly after the all star break, and Ayton also had Booker, Tyler Johnson, and Bridges after the break. Doncic was more or less playing the Booker role with rookie Jalen Brunson, Dorian Finney-Smith, Dwight Powell and Kleber. Kleber and Brunson are both decent but maybe not the best 2nd and 3rd best players. If thsoe were there best players Ayton was playing with he may have done worse than Doncic.


Bwgood, I think I have had enough of your duplicity. I think it is about time, someone stood up to you and lilfishi22. I was hoping someone would call you and him out already. That hasn't happened: maybe people are intimidated by your and lilfishi22's Moderator Status. Let me assure you that your standing on this forum means nothing to me. I cannot no longer stand by while the two of you continue unchecked and sit on your ivory tower, smug and unscathed. What needs to be said, have to be said:

a. Moderators are largely responsible for the irrational DA-bashing

When I say moderators, I am mostly referring to you (Bwgood) and lilfishi22 (not guys like Qwigglez). You both have an unhealthy obsession with the 2018 draft. Everyone knows your preference. Last season's toxic environment was because of the debate on who should have been picked in 2018. If you go back and read the discussion, lilifishi22 is right in the middle of it all (one of the chief instigator) and while you were not as overt as him, you were constantly stoking the fire: criticizing literally everything the 20 year old damn ROOKIE did while apologetically forgiving (or ignoring) the shortcomings of other draftees.

The DA-bashing got so bad, that it was finally reigned in, partly by you ... except, you and him start deploying passive-aggressive tactics. These tactics have the same results, and we're back to square one of bashing DA again, except you and him are smart to not mention the other draftee's name, and keep subtly undermining DA ad nauseam.

b. But the Passive-Aggressive nonsense is fooling no one. The Duplicity is insulting

I have more respect for guys like Frank Lee, who are obvious and upfront. You can hate his opinion but you have to at least respect the matter he goes about it. What you and lilfishi22 do is disturbing. You and him pretend to be "objective", "rational", "unbiased", "I only want whats best for the team" and deploy questionable tactics. You and him criticize DA, 9 out of 10 posts, but you make sure to have one "positive" thing to say about him, in 1 of the 10 post, to give people the fake appearance: "see how objective I am. I mention this one positive. I am definitely not bashing him." The two of you are fooling nobody.

It gets worse. Lilifishi22 had a positive comment on the Cam Johnson, but threw in a dig at DA. He commented on a completely unremarkable stats: Cam got to the line 4 times (who cares?) in four games and then make sure you know that DA had zero. The subterfuge is strong.

I have glanced at most of your and his' Mavericks-related postings. You both are unequivocally Maverick-apologists. To deny otherwise is foolish, people have a right to question your objectivity and your allegiance. If you and him can't divorce yourself from what occurred during the 2018 draft and still lived in some strange past hoping to be proven correct on your 2018 draft insights, you and him should not have the right to moderate a SUNS FORUM.

There have been a number of positive DA's post or posting that defends the kid. On the majority of them, YOU are the one that constant nitpick on something to undermine the underling positive messages. This week's postings are a perfect example. Of course, you have to say something positive in 1 out of the 10 posts to keep up that "unbiased" mirage. The worse part is when you act "surprised" that people are bashing the kid, all the while you nip in the bud anything that is positive about him. That is duplicity. So let not pretend to be "surprised" that people are bashing him, when the top moderator (the most influential poster, I might add) is constantly bringing him down.

c. You and lilfishi22 are the worst fans I have seen in my 37 years. Any modicum of success this team has, I hope you enjoy none of it. It would be an injustice to all the long suffering Suns fans for the both of you to enjoy any of this team success

Because of your tenure and the relationships you forged over the years, a number of people will come to your defense. Please spare me the "he means well" or "you're wrong, he's a good dude. you're overreacting." Also please spar me the mental gymnastic of justifying or rationalizing your and his past behaviors. I am pretty sure if you look hard enough, you can try to convince people that I am wrong and that you were badly misinterpreted. I don't care.

Nor do I want to engage in a dialogue with either of you on this matter, because I am convinced neither of you are going to see the light and admit to your transgressions. This post is for people who are so fed up with your and his toxic antic but were afraid to voice it. I have never come across such vitriolic and deceitful behaviors. I stand by my comment that you and him are godawful and terrible Suns fans and while I hope you both lead meaningful lives outside the game of NBA, I don't think it's right for you to enjoy any of this team success. It would be plain wrong.


Image

They are probably having a secret meeting now on how to get you banned and make it look unbiased.
Image
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Re: 2019 season speculation: 3 more days til season opener! 

Post#659 » by alamin330 » Sun Oct 20, 2019 12:34 pm

It doesn’t matter what someone thinks about DA vs Doncic. Doncic is nice. Ayton is nice. Doncic can ball but Ayton is a beast. Just because his mannerisms and personality aren’t up to certain individuals standards on here doesn’t make what they say about him factual. They will learn the hard way. They also aren’t objective so why argue with people who don’t want to learn? Of course we all know Carlisle used Doncic last year like his favorite player ever. The ball was in his hands as much as other stars in the league. Ayton barely touched the ball and had a huge impact. Doncic will never be able to fill the stat sheet like ayton will. Ayton will be a 25 ppg, 15 rpg, 4 apg 2 bpg, 1.5 spg on > 50% fg and 80% ft and 30% 3pt. Last time I talk about the two players.

Side note: Barring injuries suns are definitely making the playoffs. Warriors don’t look good at all. This might be the year spurs finally miss the playoffs. Terry Stotts was surprised by the whooping the suns gave them during preseason even though it was preseason. He didn’t expect that outcome. Kings are going to take a step back kinda like the suns after the first hornacek year.
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Re: 2019 season speculation: 3 more days til season opener! 

Post#660 » by sunsbg » Sun Oct 20, 2019 1:19 pm

alamin330 wrote:It doesn’t matter what someone thinks about DA vs Doncic. Doncic is nice. Ayton is nice. Doncic can ball but Ayton is a beast. Just because his mannerisms and personality aren’t up to certain individuals standards on here doesn’t make what they say about him factual. They will learn the hard way. They also aren’t objective so why argue with people who don’t want to learn? Of course we all know Carlisle used Doncic last year like his favorite player ever. The ball was in his hands as much as other stars in the league. Ayton barely touched the ball and had a huge impact. Doncic will never be able to fill the stat sheet like ayton will. Ayton will be a 25 ppg, 15 rpg, 4 apg 2 bpg, 1.5 spg on > 50% fg and 80% ft and 30% 3pt. Last time I talk about the two players.

Side note: Barring injuries suns are definitely making the playoffs. Warriors don’t look good at all. This might be the year spurs finally miss the playoffs. Terry Stotts was surprised by the whooping the suns gave them during preseason even though it was preseason. He didn’t expect that outcome. Kings are going to take a step back kinda like the suns after the first hornacek year.


I mentioned a stat recently that he was the player with most touches after the ASB. So it's really unfair to compare Doncic and Ayton at this point. Luka's father was a professional BB player and put the ball in his hands when he was 7, Ayton started playing when he was 15. One played professionally several years, the other had one college year and high school where you probably gain bad habits than actually learn the game.

Doncic will put stats that's for sure. He has the green light to do whatever he wants after seeing him launch 3s multiple times early in the shot clock this preseason. His foul drawing tactics are already on Harden's level. Just as Harden I see him like a great regular season player, that eventually underachieves in playoffs, when teams play proper D and referees officiate the game different.

As for Ayton, I don't know if he ever puts 15rbs, but even if he ends on Aldridge's level, you still can have a winning team with such player. It's funny how many times you read something in the meaning of 'if Ayton doesn't become a defensive monster, the Suns will suck forever'. Team D is not a one man responsibility, but some appear to think it's all on Ayton's shoulders, or at least it appears this way.

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