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Around the NBA 2019-20

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Re: Around the NBA 2019-20 

Post#821 » by SunsLyf3 » Sun Aug 2, 2020 10:07 pm

Scoot McGroot wrote:
SunsLyf3 wrote:
Scoot McGroot wrote:
The reports out of Indy (from an itinerant kind of journalist who's not really tied originally to Indy, but salt ready) were that Phoenix HAD called around to multiple teams and offered Warren for free a bit before the draft, and no one was biting. Some didn't see him as a fit, and some just didn't want to commit their cap space/TPE early before seeing what free agency might offer them. By the time James was calling Indy on draft day, they had basically said they need to get it done, and decided to include the 2nd. Pritchard, knowing that Indy wasn't naturally a target in free agency jumped on it immediately. I think IF Phoenix was willing to wait until after the draft, and into free agency, they likely would have been able to move TJ for no cost, if not maybe getting a future 2nd or two in return. But, timing affects value a ton, too.

As for Rubio, we apparently had a deal ready for him in Indy, until we found out that Brogdon was gettable, and Simon (Pacers owner) called Milwaukee ownership personally to make a simple trade to get the deal done. We backed away from Rubio, and then he swung immediately to Phoenix.


The details matter. We should have at least asked for a late 1st with protections but details matter. They won't talk about that on TV though.



I’m not sure what you mean.

But, at the time he was dealt, Warren did not have the value to return cap space and a 1st. If you were willing to take back bad salary, you definitely could’ve, but that would’ve negated the whole reason to trade Warren.

Now, after he’s had essentially a healthy year, and played good defense, and proven that the improvements he was showing in his long range shooting are more real than just a hot hand, he definitely has more value than he did last year in trade.

That people will look at the deal and just say it was a bad deal and they could have gotten more. You just explained why they didn't/couldn't which won't be talked about by media. Maybe if they had tried a bit later but they needed to clear space to address the PG position.
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Re: Around the NBA 2019-20 

Post#822 » by Revived » Mon Aug 3, 2020 12:17 am

bwgood77 wrote:
Revived wrote:
Saberestar wrote:I have seen this idea a few times and it's wrong. "WE NEEDED"?? No way it was "needed". There were like 50 different options to have the cap space to sign Rubio as a FA and James Jones selected this one.

You don't trade for free a young efficient wing under a friendly long-term contract. A guy who breathes basketball.
Good teams don't make that decisions, they find the way to stay away of those terrible mistakes.

Yeah I was trying to make it sound better than it is lol. Regardless of Jones idiocy of trading for Tyler Johnson that put us in that situation in the first place.

Still could have stretched Tyler Johnson...that saves the money right there. Of course we thought he might be pretty good...bad thought.

James Jones certainly seems to have a thing for non athletic white guards.
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Re: Around the NBA 2019-20 

Post#823 » by bwgood77 » Tue Aug 4, 2020 12:45 am

Wow, Michael Porter Jr with 37 points on 75% shooting and 67% from 3 along with 12 boards. Nuggets are stacked. Jamal Murray and Gary Harris not even playing and they beat OKC who thumped Utah.

And TJ Warren again with 34 points, 11 rebounds, 4 assists, 4 blocks and 3 steals.
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Re: Around the NBA 2019-20 

Post#824 » by darmani » Tue Aug 4, 2020 5:09 am

JJJ with a massive 8 rebounds... in 3 games.
"Can’t talk basketball with everybody" - Devin Booker
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Re: Around the NBA 2019-20 

Post#825 » by cberry78 » Tue Aug 4, 2020 9:46 am

bwgood77 wrote:And TJ Warren again with 34 points, 11 rebounds, 4 assists, 4 blocks and 3 steals.


What a scrub.
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Re: Around the NBA 2019-20 

Post#826 » by Saberestar » Tue Aug 4, 2020 11:56 am

The Grizzlies are showing that they were not that good. I am not impressed at all by JJJ, he is obviously talented but his game is empty in so many aspects.
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Re: Around the NBA 2019-20 

Post#827 » by WeekapaugGroove » Tue Aug 4, 2020 3:08 pm

I don't think TJ wanted to be in Phoenix anymore, there was definitely something odd going on at the end of last season. Now I think this had been building for years and it was probably all/mostly the suns fault but I think they were done with each other.

If there's one thing consistent with Jones is he's moved anyone who doesn't want to be here.

Now before someone says the suns held him out last year keep in mind that TJ needed like 5 more 3pt attempts to hit a bonus in his contract. Had the suns not let him play and try to hit that it would have been the easiest grievance the players association would ever file. None was filed.

Overall the asset management last summer was poor but they basically pushed all their chips into building around Booker and Ayton and anyone they didn't feel fit well with those two got moved. Time will tell if that was the right strategy.

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Re: Around the NBA 2019-20 

Post#828 » by sunsbg » Tue Aug 4, 2020 3:16 pm

Saberestar wrote:The Grizzlies are showing that they were not that good. I am not impressed at all by JJJ, he is obviously talented but his game is empty in so many aspects.


I surely hope we are better than the Grizzlies next season and in the future. Not impressed by Clarke either. Great stats but he's undersized and really not that talented, so he's basically a role player. The guy jumps from two feet from the FT line for a floater and looks so mechanical in general. He'll put stats next to Morant though, who creates him great looks. I hope they give him a big contract based on stats alone.
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Re: Around the NBA 2019-20 

Post#829 » by WeekapaugGroove » Tue Aug 4, 2020 3:51 pm

sunsbg wrote:
Saberestar wrote:The Grizzlies are showing that they were not that good. I am not impressed at all by JJJ, he is obviously talented but his game is empty in so many aspects.


I surely hope we are better than the Grizzlies next season and in the future. Not impressed by Clarke either. Great stats but he's undersized and really not that talented, so he's basically a role player. The guy jumps from two feet from the FT line for a floater and looks so mechanical in general. He'll put stats next to Morant though, who creates him great looks. I hope they give him a big contract based on stats alone.
I'm higher on the griz than you. Hell my biggest concern is the way Ja plays he scares me that he's going seriously hurt himself on one of his crazy at the rim finishes. He should probably tone that down a bit.

Clarkes good and if he continues to develop his shot he could be really really good.

I love JJJ but I do think his rebounding is a legit gripe, he's just never been great at it at any level. But all that really changes for how I view him is I'm having doubts he can play C for extended periods. But he'll still be a very high level stretch 4.

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Re: Around the NBA 2019-20 

Post#830 » by ImNotMcDiSwear » Tue Aug 4, 2020 3:56 pm

WeekapaugGroove wrote:I don't think TJ wanted to be in Phoenix anymore, there was definitely something odd going on at the end of last season. Now I think this had been building for years and it was probably all/mostly the suns fault but I think they were done with each other.

If there's one thing consistent with Jones is he's moved anyone who doesn't want to be here.

Now before someone says the suns held him out last year keep in mind that TJ needed like 5 more 3pt attempts to hit a bonus in his contract. Had the suns not let him play and try to hit that it would have been the easiest grievance the players association would ever file. None was filed.

Overall the asset management last summer was poor but they basically pushed all their chips into building around Booker and Ayton and anyone they didn't feel fit well with those two got moved. Time will tell if that was the right strategy.

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I have always felt that TJ was underappreciated by the coaching staff and front office, and perhaps more importantly, the fans. TJ barely played early on, despite his obvious talent level. During his last couple seasons with us, he failed to get sufficient attention or recognition for his play from the front office, coaching staff and the fans, all of whom preferred Booker taking the shots. I was never convinced that Booker was a better player than TJ on either end of the court.

I frequently argued that TJ was underrated on both sides of the ball. Doesn't turn the ball over. Underrated one-on-one defender who got plenty of steals for a guy who "doesn't play D." Doesn't get assists, but his ability to cut and put himself in position lead to others getting more assists and fewer turnovers. Before he got the 3 down, I argued that there was a good chance he'd add that shot - and then he did. But it didn't matter. I got no truck when I made these arguments on TJ's behalf and instead constantly heard only retorts about his poor passing, poor outside shooting, and poor defense. The focus by the fans on TJ's shortcomings always seemed disproportionate to me, and certainly inconsistent with the intense focus on Booker's potential and positives.

I know the head injuries bothered a lot of people. They bothered me, too. But it also seemed apparent, like you said, that there was beef between TJ and the Suns. His real problem may have been that was that he was so quiet and not very flashy - not the type of guy marketing people would want to be the face of the franchise. I really do believe that the key issue was our strong preference for Devin Booker and our inability to give TJ adequate touches as a result.

Ah, well. I don't think Oubre's much worse. And TJ's a small forward through and through, just like Bridges, who I prefer to TJ. So maybe there was never a way to keep him here and give him an adequate role. But boy does it suck to watch my man killing it as the primary option for a playoff team, to see him get all this acclaim only now, after it's too late. At least my TJ Warren rookie card collection is finally worth something.
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Re: Around the NBA 2019-20 

Post#831 » by ImNotMcDiSwear » Tue Aug 4, 2020 4:07 pm

WeekapaugGroove wrote:
sunsbg wrote:
Saberestar wrote:The Grizzlies are showing that they were not that good. I am not impressed at all by JJJ, he is obviously talented but his game is empty in so many aspects.


I surely hope we are better than the Grizzlies next season and in the future. Not impressed by Clarke either. Great stats but he's undersized and really not that talented, so he's basically a role player. The guy jumps from two feet from the FT line for a floater and looks so mechanical in general. He'll put stats next to Morant though, who creates him great looks. I hope they give him a big contract based on stats alone.
I'm higher on the griz than you. Hell my biggest concern is the way Ja plays he scares me that he's going seriously hurt himself on one of his crazy at the rim finishes. He should probably tone that down a bit.

Clarkes good and if he continues to develop his shot he could be really really good.

I love JJJ but I do think his rebounding is a legit gripe, he's just never been great at it at any level. But all that really changes for how I view him is I'm having doubts he can play C for extended periods. But he'll still be a very high level stretch 4.

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I like Ja more than anyone on our roster. Clarke may be better than anyone currently on our roster, too (though I would rather have Ayton personally, and proooobably Booker as well, and Cam/Bridges may prove as or more valuable in the long run). JJJ is an awesome threat, though certainly not the defensive savant he was projected to be coming out. I like Dillon Brooks a lot, too. Their front office is savvy, and their coaching staff is smart, or so it appears from how this season has gone. I mean, they saw value in Grayson Allen, who until this season has looked like pure dog****.

The problems they'll have are (1) no draft pick this year, (2) some of the talented players who might be considered part of their future - Melton and JJ - will be UFAs this summer, and (3) they're in Memphis, which is a very small market by NBA standards. I don't think Ja/Clarke/JJJ/Brooks/Valanciunas/Winslow/(Allen) is good enough as a core group to contend, so they'll have to add at least one more top tier player. They have time, but it'll be tough. Their quick success with this young group has taken them out of the top of the draft for the foreseeable future, so they'll need to find value late in the draft and through free agency and trades, which won't be easy.
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Re: Around the NBA 2019-20 

Post#832 » by WeekapaugGroove » Tue Aug 4, 2020 4:09 pm

ImNotMcDiSwear wrote:
WeekapaugGroove wrote:I don't think TJ wanted to be in Phoenix anymore, there was definitely something odd going on at the end of last season. Now I think this had been building for years and it was probably all/mostly the suns fault but I think they were done with each other.

If there's one thing consistent with Jones is he's moved anyone who doesn't want to be here.

Now before someone says the suns held him out last year keep in mind that TJ needed like 5 more 3pt attempts to hit a bonus in his contract. Had the suns not let him play and try to hit that it would have been the easiest grievance the players association would ever file. None was filed.

Overall the asset management last summer was poor but they basically pushed all their chips into building around Booker and Ayton and anyone they didn't feel fit well with those two got moved. Time will tell if that was the right strategy.

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I have always felt that TJ was underappreciated by the coaching staff and front office, and perhaps more importantly, the fans. TJ barely played early on, despite his obvious talent level. During his last couple seasons with us, he failed to get sufficient attention or recognition for his play from the front office, coaching staff and the fans, all of whom preferred Booker taking the shots. I was never convinced that Booker was a better player than TJ on either end of the court.

I frequently argued that TJ was underrated on both sides of the ball. Doesn't turn the ball over. Underrated one-on-one defender who got plenty of steals for a guy who "doesn't play D." Doesn't get assists, but his ability to cut and put himself in position lead to others getting more assists and fewer turnovers. Before he got the 3 down, I argued that there was a good chance he'd add that shot - and then he did. But it didn't matter. I got no truck when I made these arguments on TJ's behalf and instead constantly heard only retorts about his poor passing, poor outside shooting, and poor defense. The focus by the fans on TJ's shortcomings always seemed disproportionate to me, and certainly inconsistent with the intense focus on Booker's potential and positives.

I know the head injuries bothered a lot of people. They bothered me, too. But it also seemed apparent, like you said, that there was beef between TJ and the Suns. His real problem may have been that was that he was so quiet and not very flashy - not the type of guy marketing people would want to be the face of the franchise. I really do believe that the key issue was our strong preference for Devin Booker and our inability to give TJ adequate touches as a result.

Ah, well. I don't think Oubre's much worse. And TJ's a small forward through and through, just like Bridges, who I prefer to TJ. So maybe there was never a way to keep him here and give him an adequate role. But boy does it suck to watch my man killing it as the primary option for a playoff team, to see him get all this acclaim only now, after it's too late. At least my TJ Warren rookie card collection is finally worth something.
Yeah I think he's a quiet dude who never liked talking to the media and in turn never got great media coverage which didn't help his perception with the fans.

TJ was hurt a bunch here, seemed to have some bad luck. Now unlike a lot of posters I avoid speculation on injuries and when I feel like they should return, just feels irresponsible considering the lack of information we have. The weird 'head injury' from what I've gathered seems like it was the suns training staffs fault, I think BW had some info on that. If true I can absolutely understand why a rift started and why TJ didn't trust them moving forward. I also think TJ might have been legitimately annoyed the suns brought in a new SF each year to replace him.

And to my other point they just seemed to go all in on Booker and Ayton and TJ did have the worst net rating of all the wings last year with Booker. Their fit was always a little sketchy.

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Re: Around the NBA 2019-20 

Post#833 » by starbosa10 » Tue Aug 4, 2020 4:13 pm

Brandon Clarke is not better nor will ever be better than Book. What are some of these takes lol
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Re: Around the NBA 2019-20 

Post#834 » by ImNotMcDiSwear » Tue Aug 4, 2020 4:25 pm

starbosa10 wrote:Brandon Clarke is not better nor will ever be better than Book. What are some of these takes lol


The kind that acknowledges both sides of the court?
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Re: Around the NBA 2019-20 

Post#835 » by Mr Puddles » Tue Aug 4, 2020 4:58 pm

ImNotMcDiSwear wrote:
starbosa10 wrote:Brandon Clarke is not better nor will ever be better than Book. What are some of these takes lol


The kind that acknowledges both sides of the court?


Brandon Clarke is great but anyone who acknowledges both sides of the court also recognizes that Devin Booker towers over him as a scorer and facilitator. Despite being a rookie, Brandon Clarke is also a month older than Booker.

Again, I really like Brandon Clarke but Booker is a far more valuable player.
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Re: Around the NBA 2019-20 

Post#836 » by bwgood77 » Tue Aug 4, 2020 5:40 pm

WeekapaugGroove wrote:I don't think TJ wanted to be in Phoenix anymore, there was definitely something odd going on at the end of last season. Now I think this had been building for years and it was probably all/mostly the suns fault but I think they were done with each other.

If there's one thing consistent with Jones is he's moved anyone who doesn't want to be here.

Now before someone says the suns held him out last year keep in mind that TJ needed like 5 more 3pt attempts to hit a bonus in his contract. Had the suns not let him play and try to hit that it would have been the easiest grievance the players association would ever file. None was filed.

Overall the asset management last summer was poor but they basically pushed all their chips into building around Booker and Ayton and anyone they didn't feel fit well with those two got moved. Time will tell if that was the right strategy.

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I'm not as big into conspiracy theories...I just think the team and a big portion of the fan base turned on him. Liked the flashier Kelly and most preferred Josh Jackson before that..or even up to the end. I think TJ somewhat may have seen the writing on the wall but I really think he just didn't feel right down the stretch and didn't want to risk further injury when we were clearly out of it. If he felt completely 100%, as you said, I think he plays just to get those 3s.....I think Oubre is more likely healthier and we DO have a chance to play for something here.

Obviously we've talked about this stuff enough....I just still like to follow him, and I know some others do like to follow other players, so I mention stats in the game threads.

I didn't mean or want for people to get into all this old stuff again. There really isn't any need for others to come in and bash him after a good game either or whatever...or say people are crying (none of this part directed at you or anyone in particular)....I just like him as a player...always did, and am glad he's in a good position.
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Re: Around the NBA 2019-20 

Post#837 » by WeekapaugGroove » Tue Aug 4, 2020 5:57 pm

bwgood77 wrote:
WeekapaugGroove wrote:I don't think TJ wanted to be in Phoenix anymore, there was definitely something odd going on at the end of last season. Now I think this had been building for years and it was probably all/mostly the suns fault but I think they were done with each other.

If there's one thing consistent with Jones is he's moved anyone who doesn't want to be here.

Now before someone says the suns held him out last year keep in mind that TJ needed like 5 more 3pt attempts to hit a bonus in his contract. Had the suns not let him play and try to hit that it would have been the easiest grievance the players association would ever file. None was filed.

Overall the asset management last summer was poor but they basically pushed all their chips into building around Booker and Ayton and anyone they didn't feel fit well with those two got moved. Time will tell if that was the right strategy.

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I'm not as big into conspiracy theories...I just think the team and a big portion of the fan base turned on him. Liked the flashier Kelly and most preferred Josh Jackson before that..or even up to the end. I think TJ somewhat may have seen the writing on the wall but I really think he just didn't feel right down the stretch and didn't want to risk further injury when we were clearly out of it. If he felt completely 100%, as you said, I think he plays just to get those 3s.....I think Oubre is more likely healthier and we DO have a chance to play for something here.

Obviously we've talked about this stuff enough....I just still like to follow him, and I know some others do like to follow other players, so I mention stats in the game threads.

I didn't mean or want for people to get into all this old stuff again. There really isn't any need for others to come in and bash him after a good game either or whatever...or say people are crying (none of this part directed at you or anyone in particular)....I just like him as a player...always did, and am glad he's in a good position.
I brought up the grievance thing simply because every time a player sits people here assume the suns are not playing them for some conspiracy. That's one case where because of that bonus I just don't think it's realistic because as I mentioned it would be a slam dunk case for the PA. I agree TJ probably didn't think his leg was right last year and that's why he didn't play.

I'm not one to jump to conspiracies but in this case it sure seemed like there was a rift between TJ and the Suns. But as I stated I think it was probably mostly if not all the suns fault. I'd also say it's no more irresponsible to state that than some of the speculation on oubres current status.

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Re: Around the NBA 2019-20 

Post#838 » by ImNotMcDiSwear » Tue Aug 4, 2020 5:59 pm

Mr Puddles wrote:
ImNotMcDiSwear wrote:
starbosa10 wrote:Brandon Clarke is not better nor will ever be better than Book. What are some of these takes lol


The kind that acknowledges both sides of the court?


Brandon Clarke is great but anyone who acknowledges both sides of the court also recognizes that Devin Booker towers over him as a scorer and facilitator. Despite being a rookie, Brandon Clarke is also a month older than Booker.

Again, I really like Brandon Clarke but Booker is a far more valuable player.


You make a good point about their comparative ages. But Clarke gives you at the PF position what Mikal gives you at the SF - a premier defender, a guy you can put on the other team's best player, almost regardless of position. Add to that his efficiency and ability to blend in with a team's offense, and I'm just not convinced Booker is the more valuable player overall. I'm sure their trade values are very different, but that's the league.

Booker's still improving, and if he was knocking down threes at a 40%+ rate, this would be a different conversation. He's got the mentality to be a #1 option, but he's so darn inconsistent. Booker wins us games, but he also costs us games with his turnovers, iso play, and defense. Clarke is consistent and won't lose you games, though he's not the type of player to carry you. I really believe there's a solid debate to be had here, though I know I'm in the minority (as per usual). But in general, I'll almost always take the two-way player.
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Re: Around the NBA 2019-20 

Post#839 » by WeekapaugGroove » Tue Aug 4, 2020 7:05 pm

ImNotMcDiSwear wrote:
Mr Puddles wrote:
ImNotMcDiSwear wrote:
The kind that acknowledges both sides of the court?


Brandon Clarke is great but anyone who acknowledges both sides of the court also recognizes that Devin Booker towers over him as a scorer and facilitator. Despite being a rookie, Brandon Clarke is also a month older than Booker.

Again, I really like Brandon Clarke but Booker is a far more valuable player.


You make a good point about their comparative ages. But Clarke gives you at the PF position what Mikal gives you at the SF - a premier defender, a guy you can put on the other team's best player, almost regardless of position. Add to that his efficiency and ability to blend in with a team's offense, and I'm just not convinced Booker is the more valuable player overall. I'm sure their trade values are very different, but that's the league.

Booker's still improving, and if he was knocking down threes at a 40%+ rate, this would be a different conversation. He's got the mentality to be a #1 option, but he's so darn inconsistent. Booker wins us games, but he also costs us games with his turnovers, iso play, and defense. Clarke is consistent and won't lose you games, though he's not the type of player to carry you. I really believe there's a solid debate to be had here, though I know I'm in the minority (as per usual). But in general, I'll almost always take the two-way player.
I agree with a lot of what you're saying I just personally don't like comparing super high end lower usage role players with higher usage 'star' types. They're just so different in what they are asked to do and frankly you need both to be a good team. After years and years of those awesome role players being undervalued I kind of feel we might have overcorrected recently because advanced stats love those types. Bottom line to be a really good team you need a tough shot maker and a guy who can get you a score late when things break down.

But totally agree Booker needs to shoot better from 3, cut the careless TOs down and give better and smarter defensive effort for him to take the next step in his career and be a true number 1 guy on a good team. Hope he does.

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Re: Around the NBA 2019-20 

Post#840 » by sunsbg » Tue Aug 4, 2020 8:10 pm

I would compare Clarke to Richaun Holmes - hard workers, bring energy and fans love them, clearly not top talents though. Basic stats of those two are pretty similar.

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