Game 48: Oklahoma City Thunder (28-20) @ Phoenix Suns (20-27)

[KLEON]

I've been saying that for the last five games or so. Rubio is not the starting point guard as of now, he has been demoted to starting shooting guard while Booker is trying to pad his assists in order to make that ASG (or "statement game"). Rubio with ball in hand in the pick and roll does not draw one, but two or three defenders. We've seen it all in the beginning of the season. Rubio as a three point spot up shooter in the corner doesnt bother anyone. But i guess its really hard to spot that Booker totally dominates the ball and there isnt really anyone else running point all game. At the same time Booker is literally not even taking a hand up on D; worst effort in a while by him tonight, the drive-by's where against him.

To me, this was predictable (since everyone talks about "snub" more than our season record, and everyone kept saying "i hope he scores 50 even if we lose") and completely on Booker + Monty. I wonder how much longer this offense is kept up. It doesnt matter wether its Rubio, Jerome or some other backup, if noone but booker gets touches and if there is someone, its Kelly "BBIQ" Oubre, this will be a nice team to watch at times, but it will not lead anywhere.

I've been saying the same thing, so I see what you're saying.

But my other point still stands. Rubio is grotesque in the last five minutes of the game. He just cannot get it done. And he's scared of shooting, even free throws. You cannot absolve him of that. He shouldn't be on the court in the final 5.

I actually feel bad for Book.I think he's mentally burnt out.His teammates are garbage.Other than Book, who on this team has a combination of smarts, heart, and skill? Ayton's like a combination of the Cowardly Lion & Tin Man.Oubre's full of energy, but he' s the Scarecrow.Beyond that, there's really no player worth mentioning.I'm starting to feel confident about Ty Jerome.Next to Booker, he's the only player on this team who doesn't give me anxiety when he's in the game.Defenses can do what the want with Book.Oubre will throw sh*t at the wall & have it stick at times, but he's not a true building block.The guy's a glorified 6th man masquerading as a starter/foundational piece.I wouldn't be sad if they traded him or let him walk.At this point, I quite sure the Devin Booker era's going to end ugly.Feels inevitable.Not to say Devin's the greatest thing since sliced bread.He definitely has his flaws.It's just that, as a Suns fan, I've never felt this hopeless.I don't see any light at the end of the tunnel.Unless the Suns get lucky like the Bucks and draft their own version of Giannis.

Well said

[bwgood77]

I'm just over Rubio.Seems like a nice guy, but he's better off as a back up in this league.He could've been Jason Kidd lite back in the 90's.I'll take Book and a guard who can knock down open shots & play defense.Maybe Klay & Book would work better.

Oh, me too, and that's what I kept emphasizing in the offseason, but we have Rubio.

There are three other guys on the floor though. Can this player also throw lobs to Ayton, find cutting Bridges (his only real offensive skill) as well as Rubio ?

If Devin is as great as we all want him to be, he has to find a way to fit with the other players, otherwise it means he's a very one dimensional player.

I don't know but I think a guy like Brogdon could, as well as spread the floor. But not sure if we could have gotten him and he's been injured a lot. There really were not many options and I'm not down on Rubio nearly as much as most. I'm generally fine with him.

[sunsbg]

Oh, me too, and that's what I kept emphasizing in the offseason, but we have Rubio.

There are three other guys on the floor though. Can this player also throw lobs to Ayton, find cutting Bridges (his only real offensive skill) as well as Rubio ?

If Devin is as great as we all want him to be, he has to find a way to fit with the other players, otherwise it means he's a very one dimensional player.

I don't know but I think a guy like Brogdon could, as well as spread the floor. But not sure if we could have gotten him and he's been injured a lot. There really were not many options and I'm not down on Rubio nearly as much as most. I'm generally fine with him.

Brogdon would certainly fit well with Devin, but the player I really wanted was Morant. I thought he'd be a great fit with both Booker and Ayton based on his playmaking alone. Of course he turned into an efficient scorer as well. Thought he would be obtainable in a trade. Unfortunately, the Grizz fell in love with him. Things would look much different now for the 8th playoff spot with a bit of luck on our side. Anyway, no point of what ifs, just play to the strength of the players currently on the roster.

[hollywood6964]

Oh, me too, and that's what I kept emphasizing in the offseason, but we have Rubio.

There are three other guys on the floor though. Can this player also throw lobs to Ayton, find cutting Bridges (his only real offensive skill) as well as Rubio ?

If Devin is as great as we all want him to be, he has to find a way to fit with the other players, otherwise it means he's a very one dimensional player.

I don't know but I think a guy like Brogdon could, as well as spread the floor. But not sure if we could have gotten him and he's been injured a lot. There really were not many options and I'm not down on Rubio nearly as much as most. I'm generally fine with him.

Nothing is black and white, but do you think we should him in the last 4 minutes or so, clutch time?

Historically the man can't get it done, and defenses can just sit back on him n let him shoot, so he can't get others open, or leave him open for shots, which he can't make. And then you're having your pg as a spot up shooter, and he's trash at it.

We already have booker, another non clutch player who tends to turn it over or brick in the waning moments, why play two of them. Especially since rubio is a lot worse in those times, and doesn't even have the tools to be successful in those situations in the first place.

I good with Rubio during the game, but not when defenses tighten up at end of quarters n crunch time. In other words-------he's a backup.

[sunsbg]

There are three other guys on the floor though. Can this player also throw lobs to Ayton, find cutting Bridges (his only real offensive skill) as well as Rubio ?

If Devin is as great as we all want him to be, he has to find a way to fit with the other players, otherwise it means he's a very one dimensional player.

I don't know but I think a guy like Brogdon could, as well as spread the floor. But not sure if we could have gotten him and he's been injured a lot. There really were not many options and I'm not down on Rubio nearly as much as most. I'm generally fine with him.

Nothing is black and white, but do you think we should him in the last 4 minutes or so, clutch time?

Historically the man can't get it done, and defenses can just sit back on him n let him shoot, so he can't get others open, or leave him open for shots, which he can't make. And then you're having your pg as a spot up shooter, and he's trash at it.

We already have booker, another non clutch player who tends to turn it over or brick in the waning moments, why play two of them. Especially since rubio is a lot worse in those times, and doesn't even have the tools to be successful in those situations in the first place.

I good with Rubio during the game, but not when defenses tighten up at end of quarters n crunch time. In other words-------he's a backup.

He's been always a starter, just won World Cup MVP in a tournament they play a team-oriented basketball. You can make your conclusion what is his strength, obviously not shooting, most probably creating open looks for others. I'm sure Booker will look clutch if he was taking open shots.

[Kerrsed]

Well, its a cover-up.

The 2 minute report was released last night, and the league said in it that the Oubre Lane Violation was the correct call. LMAO.

Only call they deem incorrect from the last 2 minutes of play is that SGA fouled Rubio on his shot attempt when we were down by 2. So Rubio should have had 2 FT attempts, instead SGA grabbed the ball, threw it to Gallo, and Booker intentionally fouled to stop the clock (Which was Bookers last foul).

https://official.nba.com/l2m/L2MReport.html?gameId=0021900725

[bwgood77]

There are three other guys on the floor though. Can this player also throw lobs to Ayton, find cutting Bridges (his only real offensive skill) as well as Rubio ?

If Devin is as great as we all want him to be, he has to find a way to fit with the other players, otherwise it means he's a very one dimensional player.

I don't know but I think a guy like Brogdon could, as well as spread the floor. But not sure if we could have gotten him and he's been injured a lot. There really were not many options and I'm not down on Rubio nearly as much as most. I'm generally fine with him.

Nothing is black and white, but do you think we should him in the last 4 minutes or so, clutch time?

Historically the man can't get it done, and defenses can just sit back on him n let him shoot, so he can't get others open, or leave him open for shots, which he can't make. And then you're having your pg as a spot up shooter, and he's trash at it.

We already have booker, another non clutch player who tends to turn it over or brick in the waning moments, why play two of them. Especially since rubio is a lot worse in those times, and doesn't even have the tools to be successful in those situations in the first place.

I good with Rubio during the game, but not when defenses tighten up at end of quarters n crunch time. In other words-------he's a backup.

He's done fairly well most of the season and was rated as our highest impact player considering both sides of the ball. I'm sure he's had some clutch moments, one in particular was drawing a foul on a long 3 at the end of a game in Denver, then hitting 3 free throws to put it into OT. Unfortunately a couple key players including him (I believe) fouled out and we lost.

We could go Booker, Bridges, Oubre, Saric and Ayton to end games, but I don't know if that would be any better. If we have a lead we need good ball handlers, and Rubio is a much better ball handler than Booker. Booker had some dumb turnovers last night. Rubio has about a 3.5-1 ast/to ratio while Booker is more like 1.6-1.

[Saberestar]

Here come the excuses from the fanboys. Its always someone else's fault, never their idol's. It was the same story in Dragic's last season in Phoenix.

Rubio is stinking up the court for the last month and it's his faut. Not Booker's. Not Monty's. It's all on Rubio. He plays like garbage. Rubio has the ball in his hands all the time when Booker sits on the bench and he still sucks. Here are the Suns stats over the last 10 games:

Booker on, Rubio off: 116.6 OffRtg, 105.0 DefRtg, +11.6 NetRtg
Booker off, Rubio on: 83.3 OffRtg, 109.5 DefRtg, -26.2 NetRtg
Booker on, Rubio on: 112.1 OffRtg, 102.6 Defrtg, +9.5 NetRtg

Thanks. Yes, that is since Booker started dominating the ball all the time and Rubio is basically a corner spot up shooter. Will ya do me the favor to look up the same number for any other ten games please? If i dont see them i'll just assume they dont back up what you are trying to say - that point booker is the better idea. And not surprisingly so, because i believe that experiment has failed before.

Its not about Booker giving up anything to Rubio its Booker playing within his limitations, to his strengths, instead of allowing him to hijack the team offense to do stuff he's not really good at.

And when has that happened?

before January 10th:


after January 10th:


There's no difference here. Booker is not dominating the ball at all. You see what you want to see.

THIS.

[bwgood77]

Thanks. Yes, that is since Booker started dominating the ball all the time and Rubio is basically a corner spot up shooter. Will ya do me the favor to look up the same number for any other ten games please? If i dont see them i'll just assume they dont back up what you are trying to say - that point booker is the better idea. And not surprisingly so, because i believe that experiment has failed before.

Its not about Booker giving up anything to Rubio its Booker playing within his limitations, to his strengths, instead of allowing him to hijack the team offense to do stuff he's not really good at.

And when has that happened?

before January 10th:


after January 10th:


There's no difference here. Booker is not dominating the ball at all. You see what you want to see.

THIS.

Only problem there is Rubio brings the ball up, slowly. You can see that Booker has more frontcourt touches and then holds onto it for 4 seconds. Obviously far off the .5 offense Monty is trying to run. The narrative of discussion changed in this debate and if people don't think Rubio often turns into a spot up shooter, they probably are not watching.

[Puff]

I was disappointed like most everyone with Booker's performance in the final minutes of this game. I also am concerned about his ability to hit shots to close games out. He has been good and bad at this but he has a lot to learn, the good thing is that he is still very young. Kobe did not make every shot either, but he took them. The good thing is that he is willing to take these shots and I see this as a season for this team and him to grow together. The last couple of years there was little to learn we were consistently getting blown out of games. Bottom line I am sticking with Booker.

I am more concerned about:

Bridges shooting - A lot of folks think he is gods gift - Well for the most part except for the 26 point game he has been the invisible man, IMO. We are down to only two players that can score the ball - Oubre and Booker - Rubio sucks - and no one passes the ball or designs a play for Ayton. By the way what happen to "Dominayton" Jerome was the only who could find him where he could do his thing. I wish Cam Johnson would get healthy, I think he is going to be really good for us in the future and he is a willing passer with a great looking shot.

Rubio has been by far our worst problem IMO. He just seems disinterested and uses some phony gestures of being concerned. This is a guy I wanted now I really am having trouble even watching him. He is not the same player that started the season, WTF happened. How many lob passes has he completed to Ayton, does he even know how to throw a lob pass. Booker needs Ayton like Kobe needed Shaq. Booker can't throw a lob pass either. This part is probably the most frustrating part of this team. We got a glimpse of what Ayton might be but we need more, much more. Rubio is supposed to be leading the orchestra, he looks more like just another member of the choir.

I hoped Ty Jerome would be who he was last night, wow. If that is who he is, I definitely want me some more Jerome. Without Jerome and Tyler Johnson last night we would have been blown out.

We can complain about coaching but has not had a full roster all season - frustrating as usual for Suns Fans.

[LesGrossman]

And when has that happened?

before January 10th:


after January 10th:


There's no difference here. Booker is not dominating the ball at all. You see what you want to see.

THIS.

Only problem there is Rubio brings the ball up, slowly. You can see that Booker has more frontcourt touches and then holds onto it for 4 seconds. Obviously far off the .5 offense Monty is trying to run. The narrative of discussion changed in this debate and if people don't think Rubio often turns into a spot up shooter, they probably are not watching.

Funny, i was about to write that...its a bit of a puzzle, entertaining for that matter, to understand why the eye test seems to be proven wrong by those numbers - but in reality they prove what i said. Also interesting that he didnt reply to my question, so i assume the other stats - the first ones mentioned - also do not fit the narrative.

You see what you want to see. And you blame whoever seems to be the easiest target. While Ricky had a December that was easily all star worthy, leading the league in assists and scoring efficiently, one poor month - poor for reasons outside of his control - is enough for most guys here to "be so past him", while wishing nothing more than to return to a model that has so miserably failed last season. Oh well.

[darmani]

And when has that happened?

before January 10th:


after January 10th:


There's no difference here. Booker is not dominating the ball at all. You see what you want to see.

THIS.

Only problem there is Rubio brings the ball up, slowly. You can see that Booker has more frontcourt touches and then holds onto it for 4 seconds. Obviously far off the .5 offense Monty is trying to run. The narrative of discussion changed in this debate and if people don't think Rubio often turns into a spot up shooter, they probably are not watching.

As you can see Booker's front court touches decreased over the last 10 games. The Suns have a Rubio-problem, not a Booker-problem.

Rubio's field goal attempts before January 10th:
0 dribbles - 3.0
1 dribble - 1.6
2+ dribbles - 7.1

Rubio's field goal attempts after January 10th:
0 dribbles - 2.4
1 dribble - 0.9
2+ dribbles - 6.8

Spot up shooter my ass.

[darmani]

THIS.

Only problem there is Rubio brings the ball up, slowly. You can see that Booker has more frontcourt touches and then holds onto it for 4 seconds. Obviously far off the .5 offense Monty is trying to run. The narrative of discussion changed in this debate and if people don't think Rubio often turns into a spot up shooter, they probably are not watching.

Funny, i was about to write that...its a bit of a puzzle, entertaining for that matter, to understand why the eye test seems to be proven wrong by those numbers - but in reality they prove what i said. Also interesting that he didnt reply to my question, so i assume the other stats - the first ones mentioned - also do not fit the narrative.

You see what you want to see. And you blame whoever seems to be the easiest target. While Ricky had a December that was easily all star worthy, leading the league in assists and scoring efficiently, one poor month - poor for reasons outside of his control - is enough for most guys here to "be so past him", while wishing nothing more than to return to a model that has so miserably failed last season. Oh well.

What question?

[bwgood77]

THIS.

Only problem there is Rubio brings the ball up, slowly. You can see that Booker has more frontcourt touches and then holds onto it for 4 seconds. Obviously far off the .5 offense Monty is trying to run. The narrative of discussion changed in this debate and if people don't think Rubio often turns into a spot up shooter, they probably are not watching.

As you can see Booker's front court touches decreased over the last 10 games. The Suns have a Rubio-problem, not a Booker-problem.

Rubio's field goal attempts before January 10th:
0 dribbles - 3.0
1 dribble - 1.6
2+ dribbles - 7.1

Rubio's field goal attempts after January 10th:
0 dribbles - 2.4
1 dribble - 0.9
2+ dribbles - 6.8

Spot up shooter my ass.

Looks like a spot up shooter to me. He shouldn't be spotting up from 3 really at all, so he shoots between 3 and a half to 4 and a half shots a game (1 dribble is typically the avoid the defender and move over to shoot a 3, or step forward to shoot to avoid defender). Of course he takes it to the rim a lot thus the 2+ dribbles. He's not great at the rim, but still good enough to take it there. That's really what he should be doing more of instead of ever really spotting up.

[bwgood77]

Only problem there is Rubio brings the ball up, slowly. You can see that Booker has more frontcourt touches and then holds onto it for 4 seconds. Obviously far off the .5 offense Monty is trying to run. The narrative of discussion changed in this debate and if people don't think Rubio often turns into a spot up shooter, they probably are not watching.

Funny, i was about to write that...its a bit of a puzzle, entertaining for that matter, to understand why the eye test seems to be proven wrong by those numbers - but in reality they prove what i said. Also interesting that he didnt reply to my question, so i assume the other stats - the first ones mentioned - also do not fit the narrative.

You see what you want to see. And you blame whoever seems to be the easiest target. While Ricky had a December that was easily all star worthy, leading the league in assists and scoring efficiently, one poor month - poor for reasons outside of his control - is enough for most guys here to "be so past him", while wishing nothing more than to return to a model that has so miserably failed last season. Oh well.

What question?

I believe he is talking about your on/off net ratings where he asked what they were from any other sample period of a month, like the 3 months prior from the 10th to 10th.

[SuperSunsFan]

if rubio was the person bringing the ball up the court he almost exclusively handed the ball off to Booker almost immediately in nearly every possession down the stretch. rubio should not be on the court in the stretches when we go exclusively iso Book on every possession, maybe Ty should play instead of rubio at times like that.

[bwgood77]

And if he's never dominating the ball, the # of turnovers is really atrocious. 7 last night? Ugly. I'm not anti Booker and know he's by far our most important and best player, but they built our team to play as a team and utlilize people's strengths. Rubio's assists go down too because no one takes a 3 anymore barely...they all drive instead.

[darmani]

Only problem there is Rubio brings the ball up, slowly. You can see that Booker has more frontcourt touches and then holds onto it for 4 seconds. Obviously far off the .5 offense Monty is trying to run. The narrative of discussion changed in this debate and if people don't think Rubio often turns into a spot up shooter, they probably are not watching.

As you can see Booker's front court touches decreased over the last 10 games. The Suns have a Rubio-problem, not a Booker-problem.

Rubio's field goal attempts before January 10th:
0 dribbles - 3.0
1 dribble - 1.6
2+ dribbles - 7.1

Rubio's field goal attempts after January 10th:
0 dribbles - 2.4
1 dribble - 0.9
2+ dribbles - 6.8

Spot up shooter my ass.

Looks like a spot up shooter to me. He shouldn't be spotting up from 3 really at all, so he shoots between 3 and a half to 4 and a half shots a game (1 dribble is typically the avoid the defender and move over to shoot a 3, or step forward to shoot to avoid defender). Of course he takes it to the rim a lot thus the 2+ dribbles. He's not great at the rim, but still good enough to take it there. That's really what he should be doing more of instead of ever really spotting up.

Dude, you and that other idiot were arguing that Booker started dominating that ball, which forced Rubio to change his playing style and play more off the ball. This is clearly a lie. There's nothing more to discuss. Bye.

[LesGrossman]

Its crazy to look at numbers over your own eyes that should see the actual game. In the beginning of the year, Rubio brought the ball up, handoff to a big, screened for a wing, returned and got the ball back in triple threat situation from his big most of the time. Then there was a lot of pick and roll and penetration, followed by kick out from Rubio to Baynes or Saric or dish to a cutting Bridges or Booker. Its not so long ago, you know? You dont have to hide behind stats to undesrtand what has changed. Nowadays, Rubio brings the ball up (if its not one of the Oubre kamikaze posessions where noone else touches the ball), hands off to the big, screens for the wing and goes straight into the corner. He never gets the ball back most of the time unless book gets struck without plan and with several defenders on him, who then plays a poor desperation pass that ends up in Rickys hands with 0.8 on the clock. All of this happens by design, its not accidental over several games. It is designed to let Booker run the complete offense. I dont know the purpose but it doesnt seem to work, but thats besides the point. The point is that you seem to watch the games but dont actually see what happens. Rubio didnt come in to end up as a corner 3pt shooter. Its just plain stupid to blame him to be bad at it. Its also not the case that he has regressed, its more that the system and offense has obviously been altered by the coaching staff. Mabye to cater to book, maybe to help his ASG cause (not so far fetched theory - it brings $), maybe because someone thought it'd just be a good idea.

Finally, just assuming that what i observe is true, how would you feel in his situation? How motivated would you be to continue in this system that not only doesnt help you but very obviously hurts the team's success?

[bwgood77]

As you can see Booker's front court touches decreased over the last 10 games. The Suns have a Rubio-problem, not a Booker-problem.

Rubio's field goal attempts before January 10th:
0 dribbles - 3.0
1 dribble - 1.6
2+ dribbles - 7.1

Rubio's field goal attempts after January 10th:
0 dribbles - 2.4
1 dribble - 0.9
2+ dribbles - 6.8

Spot up shooter my ass.

Looks like a spot up shooter to me. He shouldn't be spotting up from 3 really at all, so he shoots between 3 and a half to 4 and a half shots a game (1 dribble is typically the avoid the defender and move over to shoot a 3, or step forward to shoot to avoid defender). Of course he takes it to the rim a lot thus the 2+ dribbles. He's not great at the rim, but still good enough to take it there. That's really what he should be doing more of instead of ever really spotting up.

Dude, you and that other idiot were arguing that Booker started dominating that ball, which forced Rubio to change his playing style and play more off the ball. This is clearly a lie. There's nothing more to discuss. Bye.

You gotta quit personally attacking people. I guess you didn't read the post about him touching it in the frontcourt a lot and holding onto it for 4 seconds or more. Heck, you posted it as evidence. We are supposed to be quickly moving the ball with a .5 offense and when we did, we were playing much better, starting 7-4 even without Ayton, and Rubio was playing better as well because the ball was moving quickly and the defense kept having to reset instead of focusing 3-4 guys on Booker and ignoring shooters because they know the majority of the time he will shoot anyway. It takes others out of the game as they watch. Other's games were impacted too, whether it be Baynes, Saric, etc. I know you are a Booker super fan and he can do no wrong, even if it sometimes costs the team. He's our biggest weapon, but when others get freezed out, most all of them play worse.