Game 59: LA Clippers (39-19) @ Phoenix Suns (24-34)

[RunDogGun]

I love that Booker's assists are lucky. He had 10 "lucky" assists then? lol

His shot wasnt' falling last night. That's on him but it happens to everyone now and then. He was noticeably trying on defense. He also wasn't the only one missing shots.

I don't understand the people who say things like Monty is too scared to reign Booker in. My guess would be that Monty is actually encouraging Booker to shoot more. He's typically very efficient. You could hear Eddie last night saying he wishes Devin would try and take over more or look for his own shot. I think Booker typically tries to make the right basketball play and is unselfish. He looks to pass at times which becomes a detriment as his passing isn't elite and he turns it over. This happens alot with passes to Ayton which are slightly off when he would probably be better served putting the ball up and having Ayton grab any rebound instead.

This is why I think Cam should get the start over Saric. I think Booker needs a more consistent threat on the court if Oubre is out. Cam is faster than Saric, and I think Bridges can mold Cam into playing smart defense. All of this takes pressure off Booker both offensively and defensively. While Booker's shots aren't falling as much since the allstar break, his assists have jumped 32% (2/6.3).

Even though I want Cam to start, I think Dario should still get a lot of minutes. When he plays 30+ mins, his stats are almost double from 20-29 mins. The amount of games to show this data is 16, so pretty solid sample size.

So, my new starting line up is Rubio, Booker, Cam, Bridges, Ayton with Dario being the first guy off the bench.

[lilfishi22]

I don't know what to tell you, but its tough to call someone "selfish" when they dish out ten assists. Clearly he made ten other guys better last night by setting them up. Getting double digits in assists does make the team better, there really isn't an argument to make to suggest it does not. Sounds like you just don't care for him. I am not sure why he has to be Kobe, Lebron, or MJ. But just curious, what does that make Saric. Tskitshvili?

Saric has a role, its a bench role. He isn't good enough to be a starter. His effort is fine. He needs to knock down his open shots, so our best player doesn't have to carry the team.

Side note, Booker has 8.3 assists per game since the allstar game. Please tell me how this makes him more selfish "since the allstar game".

I think you can be both. You can be "unselfish" dishing out assist but also do it in a selfish way that disrupts the offense. We've seen that with Wall, we've seen that with Westbrook and we've seen that with Iverson. Having a high assist number doesn't necessarily make you unselfish, it's still about how you get those assists.

If these guys are getting their assists by isolating for near 20 seconds and passing it off in the last second after they get stuck, it kills all offensive flow even if the result is positive. It's forgivable in few possessions but when you're doing it back to back to back, it's not going to lead to a good and efficient offense or a ton of wins.

[bwgood77]

Booker can definitely be selfish, but overall he's gotten better, especially the last few games. I hated after Ayton scored 10 easy points in the first half of the first quarter, though, that they went away from that. I hated to see Booker take so many spot up 3s. Most of his shots seemed to be after him dribbling a lot....and when he does that, he's not nearly as efficient as when the ball flows and he shoots more catch and shoots or 1 dribble shots. It felt like he was doing a lot more of that the last few games before last night.

His poor shooting was more a reflection of the shots he was taking, trying to play a lot of 1 on 1.

He can be a pretty good passer and that aspect of his game has improved, since he can cave the defense and sometimes make the pass to the open guy.

But despite the assist numbers, he obviously played quite a bit of selfish ball and there were many possessions no one else touched it and it ended up with him missing a shot. The weird thing is he is so much more efficient scoring when the ball moves and he is taking quick shots than iso'ing or taking spot up 3s. I think he has gotten better at playing team ball, particularly with Rubio around, and he said he thinks their relationship and how well they play together will only get better, so hopefully it continues to evolve.

Sometimes he just seems to fall back to bad habits but then sometimes he will totally snap out of it too. It may happen when a guy on the other team hits a long spot up, or a guy he considers a player rival makes a nice iso shot...he takes it on kind of a personal challenge. Though there have been times where someone did that and I kind of thought he might try it at the other end and he makes the right pass for a score.

Players can certainly be selfish and get a lot of assists too though. I consider Harden a pretty selfish player even though he averages more assists than Booker.

And yes, on defense, he is far better, particularly on ball defense, where he shows a lot more effort a lot of the time. Off ball or running back on defense, etc, can use more work though.

[Saberestar]

Good game, we played good enough defense to be in the game even with a bad shooting night from Book.

Offensively Rubio and Ayton did their job and some more. But we needed Saric but he did not deliver it.

The next two games are must wins. With or without Oubre.

Why is Saric's contribution so relevant, while Booker gets away with a "he had a bad Shooting night"? Saric is literally playing his azz off with no regard to injury if you observe how he fights on the boards, while Booker has been playing absolutely selfish and not for the Team since all star break. To me, its exactly the other way around. Saric does everything within his power to win the game, but continues to struggle Shooting (noone hsa a recipe to overcome that). Booker simply does not care enough for the W and only checks his numbers and everyone else's.

Saric got the starting spot for this game with Oubre out and everyone expected him to rise his game given the opportunity.

He didn't play well, and YES, big part of that is because he was 1/7 shooting from the floor in 31 minutes. That's terrible and his job as a stretch PF is open the floor for Rubio/Booker and Ayton...and he didn't create that much needed space just because his inability to make shots.

And he was OK rebounding, but other than that he was mediocre on defense. Marcus scored in front of him some shots because he was too late rising his hand or was slow to cover him. He is a better fit as a C nowadays, because he struggles too much with athletic and fast players on the perimeter.

And I really like Saric and I want him on the team, he is a solid player, but he is not good enough to be a successful starting player in the league. Sadly he has shown a lot of inconsistency in his play all season long, and he plays well one game and mediocre or bad the next four or five. Starters need to be consistent and reliable.

Regarding Booker, he is playing great this season, he is a fantastic scorer who can create for himself or his teammates and he is only getting better. Defensively he has stepped up his game and he is close to average on that side of the court already. He needs to improve his attention and how to navigate through screens and he will get there. That would be huge because he is already a tremendous efficient scorer (TS% .618), but every player can have a bad game here or there, and he couldn't score as he usually does yesterday.

He had Leonard and George in front of him and you need to remember that every team is prepared to try to stop him, double team defenses are common for him. He creates space and opportunities for his teammates even without touching the ball because all the attention that he receives. BUT those role players on the team need to make their open shots or someway take advantage and sadly that doesn't happen too often.

[Saberestar]

Why is Saric's contribution so relevant, while Booker gets away with a "he had a bad Shooting night"? Saric is literally playing his azz off with no regard to injury if you observe how he fights on the boards, while Booker has been playing absolutely selfish and not for the Team since all star break. To me, its exactly the other way around. Saric does everything within his power to win the game, but continues to struggle Shooting (noone hsa a recipe to overcome that). Booker simply does not care enough for the W and only checks his numbers and everyone else's.

Because Saric's and other guys around Booker need to hit their shots so our best player doesn't get doubled or tripled team. Booker had ten assists tonight, and it might have been more if guys hit their shots. While I am not always happy with what Booker does (argue calls instead of getting back on D, or forcing bad shots), he takes on a huge role of being our star player. He faces the tough defense, he faces the doubles, and he has been doing a good job of getting others involved.

I like Saric, but he just isn't good enough to start, and his contribution is very relevant. I did like his rare nine rebounds, though.

I think Booker is disrupting the offense and unneccessarily going to Iso game. I dont care for his assists, i care for his catch and shoot Points. Someone Needs to hammer into his brain that he isnt headed towards a Kobe career but rather a Melo type Player: Everyone thinks "he is a great iso Player" but he never makes any Team better, only Ends up with great individual numbers. Bookers leash is much longer than Sarics he gets a ton more $ and he should do what he can to make this Team win, not his stats (which is exactly what Saric does, within his limitations). Booker is an average ISO Player at most and an average creator for a SG. He is elite when he just catches and goes for the score, theres a reason he wsa able to shine at the 3pt contest, but these days he barely ever does that. He catches and then does some triple threat / jab step / ball fake / head fake moves that he saw someone else do (MJ, Kobe, Melo, Bron) but doesnt seem to really understand or know why he would do them other than look cool; then dribbles back to half court and then goes head first into some improvised one on five playground move. Half of the time he Ends up struck in the paint and desperately kicks out to someone who then heaves a Desperation 3 and when those guys happen to get lucky booker gets another assist. What can you really criticise Saric for, attitude or decision wise? He just happens to miss his shots whtich is a confidence Thing, otherwise i'd say he is playing as hard as anyone on this Team.

Not sure if you are talking here about Book who is an efficient high volume scorer and is a good facilitator who every journalist and NBA player would say that is having a terrific season OR you are talking about a backup chucker like Shannon Brown. He played for us some years ago and probably you misspelled his name.

[sasquatchBob]

I think Booker is still trying to adjust to a new system. He's doing things that he didn't do before, so he like the rest of the young guys is still learning. We need to give him a year or two and I think we will love the result.

[LesGrossman]

Because Saric's and other guys around Booker need to hit their shots so our best player doesn't get doubled or tripled team. Booker had ten assists tonight, and it might have been more if guys hit their shots. While I am not always happy with what Booker does (argue calls instead of getting back on D, or forcing bad shots), he takes on a huge role of being our star player. He faces the tough defense, he faces the doubles, and he has been doing a good job of getting others involved.

I like Saric, but he just isn't good enough to start, and his contribution is very relevant. I did like his rare nine rebounds, though.

I think Booker is disrupting the offense and unneccessarily going to Iso game. I dont care for his assists, i care for his catch and shoot Points. Someone Needs to hammer into his brain that he isnt headed towards a Kobe career but rather a Melo type Player: Everyone thinks "he is a great iso Player" but he never makes any Team better, only Ends up with great individual numbers. Bookers leash is much longer than Sarics he gets a ton more $ and he should do what he can to make this Team win, not his stats (which is exactly what Saric does, within his limitations). Booker is an average ISO Player at most and an average creator for a SG. He is elite when he just catches and goes for the score, theres a reason he wsa able to shine at the 3pt contest, but these days he barely ever does that. He catches and then does some triple threat / jab step / ball fake / head fake moves that he saw someone else do (MJ, Kobe, Melo, Bron) but doesnt seem to really understand or know why he would do them other than look cool; then dribbles back to half court and then goes head first into some improvised one on five playground move. Half of the time he Ends up struck in the paint and desperately kicks out to someone who then heaves a Desperation 3 and when those guys happen to get lucky booker gets another assist. What can you really criticise Saric for, attitude or decision wise? He just happens to miss his shots whtich is a confidence Thing, otherwise i'd say he is playing as hard as anyone on this Team.

Not sure if you are talking here about Book who is an efficient high volume scorer and is a good facilitator who every journalist and NBA player would say that is having a terrific season OR you are talking about a backup chucker like Shannon Brown. He played for us some years ago and probably you misspelled his name.

Lets say its obvious we see the game in different ways.

[RunDogGun]

I don't know what to tell you, but its tough to call someone "selfish" when they dish out ten assists. Clearly he made ten other guys better last night by setting them up. Getting double digits in assists does make the team better, there really isn't an argument to make to suggest it does not. Sounds like you just don't care for him. I am not sure why he has to be Kobe, Lebron, or MJ. But just curious, what does that make Saric. Tskitshvili?

Saric has a role, its a bench role. He isn't good enough to be a starter. His effort is fine. He needs to knock down his open shots, so our best player doesn't have to carry the team.

Side note, Booker has 8.3 assists per game since the allstar game. Please tell me how this makes him more selfish "since the allstar game".

I think you can be both. You can be "unselfish" dishing out assist but also do it in a selfish way that disrupts the offense. We've seen that with Wall, we've seen that with Westbrook and we've seen that with Iverson. Having a high assist number doesn't necessarily make you unselfish, it's still about how you get those assists.

If these guys are getting their assists by isolating for near 20 seconds and passing it off in the last second after they get stuck, it kills all offensive flow even if the result is positive. It's forgivable in few possessions but when you're doing it back to back to back, it's not going to lead to a good and efficient offense or a ton of wins.

It is tough to not have your second best scorer. Many star players taking on one of the best teams in the league, would want to try and get to the line. Refs play a part in this. Book should have been to the line a bunch more in that game. With that said, dishing the ball off to other players should be seen as sharing the ball, right? He could have just not shared the ball, right? Also, we didn't shoot all that well, so 10 assists doesn't reflect how often he passed the ball.

Oh well, if others want to call him selfish, when his assists rate has jumped 32% since Allstar break, then so be it.

[bwgood77]

I don't know what to tell you, but its tough to call someone "selfish" when they dish out ten assists. Clearly he made ten other guys better last night by setting them up. Getting double digits in assists does make the team better, there really isn't an argument to make to suggest it does not. Sounds like you just don't care for him. I am not sure why he has to be Kobe, Lebron, or MJ. But just curious, what does that make Saric. Tskitshvili?

Saric has a role, its a bench role. He isn't good enough to be a starter. His effort is fine. He needs to knock down his open shots, so our best player doesn't have to carry the team.

Side note, Booker has 8.3 assists per game since the allstar game. Please tell me how this makes him more selfish "since the allstar game".

I think you can be both. You can be "unselfish" dishing out assist but also do it in a selfish way that disrupts the offense. We've seen that with Wall, we've seen that with Westbrook and we've seen that with Iverson. Having a high assist number doesn't necessarily make you unselfish, it's still about how you get those assists.

If these guys are getting their assists by isolating for near 20 seconds and passing it off in the last second after they get stuck, it kills all offensive flow even if the result is positive. It's forgivable in few possessions but when you're doing it back to back to back, it's not going to lead to a good and efficient offense or a ton of wins.

It is tough to not have your second best scorer. Many star players taking on one of the best teams in the league, would want to try and get to the line. Refs play a part in this. Book should have been to the line a bunch more in that game. With that said, dishing the ball off to other players should be seen as sharing the ball, right? He could have just not shared the ball, right? Also, we didn't shoot all that well, so 10 assists doesn't reflect how often he passed the ball.

Oh well, if others want to call him selfish, when his assists rate has jumped 32% since Allstar break, then so be it.

If you are talking about Oubre being our 2nd best scorer, he certainly he is not, unless you are looking at something extremely simplified like ppg. His efficiency is 7th on the team, meaning he takes away from those more efficient, making our possessions less valuable, and he really doesn't pass.

In 16-17, Westbrook led the league in scoring, but he wasn't nearly the best scorer, and his efficiency probably wasn't in the top 100 but near league average. His team would have done better if he took fewer shots and found teammates better shots, or let the team operate more moving the ball for better shots. Volume in scoring can be good if you have solid efficiency, which someone like Book does, though I do think the team as a whole would do better as a whole if the ball moved more instead of him dominating it for so many possessions. Yes, 10 assists in one game is nice, and he continues to improve there, but you can probably see when you watch, when the ball moves more like it did against Utah, we shoot far better as a team as a whole, as does Booker.

[RunDogGun]

I think you can be both. You can be "unselfish" dishing out assist but also do it in a selfish way that disrupts the offense. We've seen that with Wall, we've seen that with Westbrook and we've seen that with Iverson. Having a high assist number doesn't necessarily make you unselfish, it's still about how you get those assists.

If these guys are getting their assists by isolating for near 20 seconds and passing it off in the last second after they get stuck, it kills all offensive flow even if the result is positive. It's forgivable in few possessions but when you're doing it back to back to back, it's not going to lead to a good and efficient offense or a ton of wins.

It is tough to not have your second best scorer. Many star players taking on one of the best teams in the league, would want to try and get to the line. Refs play a part in this. Book should have been to the line a bunch more in that game. With that said, dishing the ball off to other players should be seen as sharing the ball, right? He could have just not shared the ball, right? Also, we didn't shoot all that well, so 10 assists doesn't reflect how often he passed the ball.

Oh well, if others want to call him selfish, when his assists rate has jumped 32% since Allstar break, then so be it.

If you are talking about Oubre being our 2nd best scorer, he certainly he is not, unless you are looking at something extremely simplified like ppg. His efficiency is 7th on the team, meaning he takes away from those more efficient, making our possessions less valuable, and he really doesn't pass.

In 16-17, Westbrook led the league in scoring, but he wasn't nearly the best scorer, and his efficiency probably wasn't in the top 100 but near league average. His team would have done better if he took fewer shots and found teammates better shots, or let the team operate more moving the ball for better shots. Volume in scoring can be good if you have solid efficiency, which someone like Book does, though I do think the team as a whole would do better as a whole if the ball moved more instead of him dominating it for so many possessions. Yes, 10 assists in one game is nice, and he continues to improve there, but you can probably see when you watch, when the ball moves more like it did against Utah, we shoot far better as a team as a whole, as does Booker.

Well there's a shocker, once again attempting to correct my opinion with your opinion.

Oubre can create his own shot, and probably moves the best without the ball (Bridges is really improving in that area and in my mind about as good now, just haven't taken advantage of it like Oubre has). Oubre has been shooting well from three as well. I was looking at more than just ppg. But if you disagree that he isn't good at creating for himself, that he doesn't move well without the ball giving other players a solid target for the finish, and doesn't get himself to the line(this part is huge when looking at a scorer), well then we will just have to agree to disagree.

In reviewing, Ayton has recently overtaken Oubre as our second best scorer, but Ayton seems to be fed a lot more by others to get those buckets, and he doesn't get to the line nearly as much as Oubre.

[sunsbg]

It is tough to not have your second best scorer. Many star players taking on one of the best teams in the league, would want to try and get to the line. Refs play a part in this. Book should have been to the line a bunch more in that game. With that said, dishing the ball off to other players should be seen as sharing the ball, right? He could have just not shared the ball, right? Also, we didn't shoot all that well, so 10 assists doesn't reflect how often he passed the ball.

Oh well, if others want to call him selfish, when his assists rate has jumped 32% since Allstar break, then so be it.

If you are talking about Oubre being our 2nd best scorer, he certainly he is not, unless you are looking at something extremely simplified like ppg. His efficiency is 7th on the team, meaning he takes away from those more efficient, making our possessions less valuable, and he really doesn't pass.

In 16-17, Westbrook led the league in scoring, but he wasn't nearly the best scorer, and his efficiency probably wasn't in the top 100 but near league average. His team would have done better if he took fewer shots and found teammates better shots, or let the team operate more moving the ball for better shots. Volume in scoring can be good if you have solid efficiency, which someone like Book does, though I do think the team as a whole would do better as a whole if the ball moved more instead of him dominating it for so many possessions. Yes, 10 assists in one game is nice, and he continues to improve there, but you can probably see when you watch, when the ball moves more like it did against Utah, we shoot far better as a team as a whole, as does Booker.

Well there's a shocker, once again attempting to correct my opinion with your opinion.

Oubre can create his own shot, and probably moves the best without the ball (Bridges is really improving in that area and in my mind about as good now, just haven't taken advantage of it like Oubre has). Oubre has been shooting well from three as well. I was looking at more than just ppg. But if you disagree that he isn't good at creating for himself, that he doesn't move well without the ball giving other players a solid target for the finish, and doesn't get himself to the line(this part is huge when looking at a scorer), well then we will just have to agree to disagree.

In reviewing, Ayton has recently overtaken Oubre as our second best scorer, but Ayton seems to be fed a lot more by others to get those buckets, and he doesn't get to the line nearly as much as Oubre.

Bwgood is first to discard 19ppg, but also first to bring 3/3 as some kind of evidence for a highly efficient offensive player. It will be interesting to see Mikal's production with increased expectations and load with Oubre being out.

[bwgood77]

It is tough to not have your second best scorer. Many star players taking on one of the best teams in the league, would want to try and get to the line. Refs play a part in this. Book should have been to the line a bunch more in that game. With that said, dishing the ball off to other players should be seen as sharing the ball, right? He could have just not shared the ball, right? Also, we didn't shoot all that well, so 10 assists doesn't reflect how often he passed the ball.

Oh well, if others want to call him selfish, when his assists rate has jumped 32% since Allstar break, then so be it.

If you are talking about Oubre being our 2nd best scorer, he certainly he is not, unless you are looking at something extremely simplified like ppg. His efficiency is 7th on the team, meaning he takes away from those more efficient, making our possessions less valuable, and he really doesn't pass.

In 16-17, Westbrook led the league in scoring, but he wasn't nearly the best scorer, and his efficiency probably wasn't in the top 100 but near league average. His team would have done better if he took fewer shots and found teammates better shots, or let the team operate more moving the ball for better shots. Volume in scoring can be good if you have solid efficiency, which someone like Book does, though I do think the team as a whole would do better as a whole if the ball moved more instead of him dominating it for so many possessions. Yes, 10 assists in one game is nice, and he continues to improve there, but you can probably see when you watch, when the ball moves more like it did against Utah, we shoot far better as a team as a whole, as does Booker.

Well there's a shocker, once again attempting to correct my opinion with your opinion.

Oubre can create his own shot, and probably moves the best without the ball (Bridges is really improving in that area and in my mind about as good now, just haven't taken advantage of it like Oubre has). Oubre has been shooting well from three as well. I was looking at more than just ppg. But if you disagree that he isn't good at creating for himself, that he doesn't move well without the ball giving other players a solid target for the finish, and doesn't get himself to the line(this part is huge when looking at a scorer), well then we will just have to agree to disagree.

In reviewing, Ayton has recently overtaken Oubre as our second best scorer, but Ayton seems to be fed a lot more by others to get those buckets, and he doesn't get to the line nearly as much as Oubre.

Yes, this is a message board with opinions. But I am also stating it with empirical evidence based on watching games and looking at the actual numbers that track efficiency.

I do agree he can create his own shot, but they are often very bad shots. He is much much better at shooting spot up 3s or cutting and getting open near the rim. But when he tries to create it is often him driving in against 3 defenders getting blocked repeatedly or just throwing up terrible shots. He had gotten a little better regarding this, but not good.

But I suppose you could call him our 3rd best scorer, but I think if he took fewer shots, and just spread the floor, that it would help Booker and others get better shots, and improve his own efficiency as well. He's made some nice strides, and the energy is nice, but the lack of bbiq can be hard to watch.

[RunDogGun]

I do love how you assume I didn't use empirical evidence to come to the conclusion I did.

I totally understand this is a message board with opinions. My comment was referring to you attempting to correct my opinion with your opinion as if your opinion was a fact. You could have just said that you disagreed with my conclusion add your own, and then used your data, but was it really needed? It was such a minor part of my overall comment, which was referring to Booker taking on more of the burden of the game because a top player on our team, who scores a bulk of the starting points (and whatever the heck I need to attach to it for people to understand how important Oubre is to the starting line up).

Regardless of whether you like how Oubre gets to the line, how he shoots, etc, it doesn't change the fact that he scores almost 19 pts/gm, and gets to the line the second most on the team. He is a good three point shooter, and plays with heart. With all that said, missing that from a game, could easily change/alter Booker's approach to that game (which by the way, was the whole point of my comment, not an opportunity to change the topic to a minor opinion side tangent to bag on Oubre) was absent.

Also, just because I don't comment on game threads, doesn't mean I don't watch the games. Please stop assuming that if an opinion doesn't match yours, it means that people don't watch the games, or that your eyes somehow see the game better than others. This is the second time you've used this in reference to one of my posts.

[LesGrossman]

I think the core of the messages of bwgood77 - a message i can relate to very well - is the belief that the game has to be played in a certain way to lead to team success. Not talking about wins, playoffs, titles. One way to play lifts a teams' game, other ways lift individual player stats. This is an extremely complex topic because ultimately it says that Westbrook was awful in his MVP season. Many people actually SAID it during that season but still he was selected for some raesons. The team didnt succeed and it didnt come as a surprise to many.

I see much of this in Lebron, Harden and others but i've learned that discussions are very frustrating and mostly useless because people who dont understand this at first sight are more or less immune to explanations. I feel like Oubre and especially Booker are similar cases. If you watch the game - and you said you do - and dont see how they hurt the team theres very little sense in continuing the discussion.