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2020 Season/Offseason (FA/Trade) Speculation - the Season Resumes

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If Suns get Chris Paul, who will be the 2nd leading scorer on the team?

Ayton
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94%
Paul
3
6%
 
Total votes: 47

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Re: 2020 Season/Offseason (FA/Trade) Speculation - the Season Resumes 

Post#3901 » by bwgood77 » Sat Nov 14, 2020 5:22 pm

Qwigglez wrote:Yeah to me, I don’t care if the trade falls apart. I thought the team did well last season with what they had and they could run it back and have better success. But I can also see CP3 having the kind of impact in Book and Aytons career that can help them blossom to that next level. Specially Ayton I can see him either shy away and stay this 18/10 player and be happy with that, or can see him turning into a monster and averaging 25/13.


I think if Ayton was going to take a big step this next year, he would likely do it either way. I think this past year was a big learning year for him, in more ways than one. With the suspension he had to grow up some, he learned from Baynes and Rubio as vets and professionalism and talking on the floor and likely is watching film and working hard this offseason.

I think he comes back and takes a pretty big step either way. Paul is a great leader and probably has a little more impact on him, but Rubio is a great teammate (better one than Paul), good leader and beloved locker room guy as well.

It won't surprise me in the least if Booker and Paul don't get along very well by the end of the first year. The good thing here is if they make the playoffs, it will be the first time, so that would probably outweigh any ill feelings...whereas with Harden and Griffin they were used to making the playoffs and just wore sick of him (well, I guess everyone on the Clips did according to Redick).
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Re: 2020 Season/Offseason (FA/Trade) Speculation - the Season Resumes 

Post#3902 » by Sunsdeuce » Sat Nov 14, 2020 5:45 pm

alamin330 wrote:FYI Chris Paul is not Steve Nash. Stop comparing them. Steve Nash had a chronic back condition Chris paul does not. Chris Paul is also better than Steve Nash


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Re: 2020 Season/Offseason (FA/Trade) Speculation - the Season Resumes 

Post#3903 » by Djedefre » Sat Nov 14, 2020 5:46 pm

Good luck with all that optimism regarding Ayton. Completely irrational, but i suppose it's easier to cope that way with prolly the biggest flop in franchise's history. If it was up to me, he'd be traded already.
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Re: 2020 Season/Offseason (FA/Trade) Speculation - the Season Resumes 

Post#3904 » by WeekapaugGroove » Sat Nov 14, 2020 5:49 pm

bwgood77 wrote:This trade keeps making me think of the Shaq trade where we sent out Marion.

I really specifically remember after Shaq's contract with Miami was ending and they agreed to sign him to a 5 year contract for like $100 million when he was like 34 I thought "Man, they are not going to like paying the last couple of years or that contract."

A couple of years later, of course we not only trade for him, but send out Marion.

Sure, the team did ok with him for a year, but then we wanted to dump him and traded him for the 46th pick the following year, so lost Marion for 1 year of an old Shaq.

Then of course I remember when Houston decided to pay Paul $160 million over 4 years I thought "Man, those last couple of years...they are going to regret that."

So who looks to be paying that? Us, but not only will we be paying it, but sending out a couple of solid players and possibly the 10th pick.
A chronicly out of shape shaq who also happened to be a horrible sceme fit vs an inshape Paul who would be a great fit on the floor. I understand not liking the trade because there is risk but that's a stretch of a comp.

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Re: 2020 Season/Offseason (FA/Trade) Speculation - the Season Resumes 

Post#3905 » by bwgood77 » Sat Nov 14, 2020 5:56 pm

WeekapaugGroove wrote:
bwgood77 wrote:This trade keeps making me think of the Shaq trade where we sent out Marion.

I really specifically remember after Shaq's contract with Miami was ending and they agreed to sign him to a 5 year contract for like $100 million when he was like 34 I thought "Man, they are not going to like paying the last couple of years or that contract."

A couple of years later, of course we not only trade for him, but send out Marion.

Sure, the team did ok with him for a year, but then we wanted to dump him and traded him for the 46th pick the following year, so lost Marion for 1 year of an old Shaq.

Then of course I remember when Houston decided to pay Paul $160 million over 4 years I thought "Man, those last couple of years...they are going to regret that."

So who looks to be paying that? Us, but not only will we be paying it, but sending out a couple of solid players and possibly the 10th pick.
A chronicly out of shape shaq who also happened to be a horrible sceme fit vs an inshape Paul who would be a great fit on the floor. I understand not liking the trade because there is risk but that's a stretch of a comp.

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It's just the thought process I had when they signed those insane contracts a their ages...and with Paul, it's the average of like 62 games per season or whatever it is that dips him. Shaq was only 1 or 2 years removed from a year where he won it all and many thought he should have won the MVP over Nash.

He has also been in the league longer than Shaq had. He did get drafted with Bogut, Deron Williams, Marvin Williams, Raymond Felton, Channing Frye, Andrew Bynum, David Lee, etc.

He has defied father time so far, but I don't know how much longer that will take.
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Re: 2020 Season/Offseason (FA/Trade) Speculation - the Season Resumes 

Post#3906 » by Saberestar » Sat Nov 14, 2020 6:12 pm

bwgood77 wrote:This trade keeps making me think of the Shaq trade where we sent out Marion.

I really specifically remember after Shaq's contract with Miami was ending and they agreed to sign him to a 5 year contract for like $100 million when he was like 34 I thought "Man, they are not going to like paying the last couple of years or that contract."

A couple of years later, of course we not only trade for him, but send out Marion.

Sure, the team did ok with him for a year, but then we wanted to dump him and traded him for the 46th pick the following year, so lost Marion for 1 year of an old Shaq.

Then of course I remember when Houston decided to pay Paul $160 million over 4 years I thought "Man, those last couple of years...they are going to regret that."

So who looks to be paying that? Us, but not only will we be paying it, but sending out a couple of solid players and possibly the 10th pick.

How can you compare this hypothetical trade with that one losing Shawn Marion?

That trade was not good because we lost Marion and we incorparated a good player, but he could not defend and play uptempo anymore. Shaq was fun to watch but you could not win with his slow ass on defense.

Marion was a monster. 4X All-Star, amazing defender. I hated a lot losing him. But we are not trading anyone like him now, not even close. Rubio is an starting PG and Oubre a good 6th man, but you can not compare them to Marion who was the motor and heart of that team.

In this deal the key is adding the much better player in the trade, and it is clearly CP3. Shaq at that moment was injured and worse than Marion.
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Re: 2020 Season/Offseason (FA/Trade) Speculation - the Season Resumes 

Post#3907 » by bwgood77 » Sat Nov 14, 2020 6:22 pm

Djedefre wrote:Good luck with all that optimism regarding Ayton. Completely irrational, but i suppose it's easier to cope that way with prolly the biggest flop in franchise's history. If it was up to me, he'd be traded already.


We had 3 bigger flops in the 2 drafts directly prior to his alone. In the McD era Len might as well be mentioned as well. Also within the previous decade to him we had Earl Clark and Kendall Marshall. Won't go back further but that's like 6 lottery picks in 9 years.
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Re: 2020 Season/Offseason (FA/Trade) Speculation - the Season Resumes 

Post#3908 » by bwgood77 » Sat Nov 14, 2020 6:26 pm

Saberestar wrote:
bwgood77 wrote:This trade keeps making me think of the Shaq trade where we sent out Marion.

I really specifically remember after Shaq's contract with Miami was ending and they agreed to sign him to a 5 year contract for like $100 million when he was like 34 I thought "Man, they are not going to like paying the last couple of years or that contract."

A couple of years later, of course we not only trade for him, but send out Marion.

Sure, the team did ok with him for a year, but then we wanted to dump him and traded him for the 46th pick the following year, so lost Marion for 1 year of an old Shaq.

Then of course I remember when Houston decided to pay Paul $160 million over 4 years I thought "Man, those last couple of years...they are going to regret that."

So who looks to be paying that? Us, but not only will we be paying it, but sending out a couple of solid players and possibly the 10th pick.

How can you compare this hypothetical trade with that one losing Shawn Marion?

That trade was not good because we lost Marion and we incorparated a good player, but he could not defend and play uptempo anymore. Shaq was fun to watch but you could not win with his slow ass on defense.

Marion was a monster. 4X All-Star, amazing defender. I hated a lot losing him. But we are not trading anyone like him now, not even close. Rubio is an starting PG and Oubre a good 6th man, but you can not compare them to Marion who was the motor and heart of that team.

In this deal the key is adding the much better player in the trade, and it is clearly CP3. Shaq at that moment was injured and worse than Marion.


It's not so much the comparison of the caliber of player we were giving up..obviously Marion is on another planet to Oubre, and also quite a bit better than Rubio, but just the sheer size of their contracts (Paul's being double the amount) and age, while giving up starters, when the guys we were trading for were much older and at the tail end of their careers. And our team and core is going to hit it's prime in 3-5 years, right after Paul is gone...so we'd need to find another PG..and inserting some 1 or 2 year guy there or a MLE guy will be a MAJOR step back unless Paul has already succumbed to injury and/or had drastic decline.
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Re: 2020 Season/Offseason (FA/Trade) Speculation - the Season Resumes 

Post#3909 » by sunsbg » Sat Nov 14, 2020 6:32 pm

bwgood77 wrote:
Djedefre wrote:Good luck with all that optimism regarding Ayton. Completely irrational, but i suppose it's easier to cope that way with prolly the biggest flop in franchise's history. If it was up to me, he'd be traded already.


We had 3 bigger flops in the 2 drafts directly prior to his alone. In the McD era Len might as well be mentioned as well. Also within the previous decade to him we had Earl Clark and Kendall Marshall. Won't go back further but that's like 6 lottery picks in 9 years.


If Ayton was not in the same draft as Doncic, people would have so different view of him. Yeah, he screwed with the suspension thing, but it's mind-boggling someone would call him the biggest flop in franchise's history.
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Re: 2020 Season/Offseason (FA/Trade) Speculation - the Season Resumes 

Post#3910 » by bwgood77 » Sat Nov 14, 2020 6:38 pm

sunsbg wrote:
bwgood77 wrote:
Djedefre wrote:Good luck with all that optimism regarding Ayton. Completely irrational, but i suppose it's easier to cope that way with prolly the biggest flop in franchise's history. If it was up to me, he'd be traded already.


We had 3 bigger flops in the 2 drafts directly prior to his alone. In the McD era Len might as well be mentioned as well. Also within the previous decade to him we had Earl Clark and Kendall Marshall. Won't go back further but that's like 6 lottery picks in 9 years.


If Ayton was not in the same draft as Doncic, people would have so different view of him. Yeah, he screwed with the suspension thing, but it's mind-boggling someone would call him the biggest flop in franchise's history.


Hey, I wanted Doncic, as I'm sure people know, but we could play that game all day with guys...Markieff over Kawhi, Len over Giannis. Now Doncic was more obvious, a clear cut top prospect and almost certainly a future multiple time MVP, but Ayton isn't a flop. He's already probably a top 10 C in his 2nd year and has only played like 109 games, or about 1.3 seasons, making major strides on the biggest concern, defense, in his second year. Sure he may be more like Aldridge on offense than Amare, but Aldridge has been pretty effective on that side over his career.
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Re: 2020 Season/Offseason (FA/Trade) Speculation - the Season Resumes 

Post#3911 » by Saberestar » Sat Nov 14, 2020 6:49 pm

bwgood77 wrote:
Saberestar wrote:
bwgood77 wrote:This trade keeps making me think of the Shaq trade where we sent out Marion.

I really specifically remember after Shaq's contract with Miami was ending and they agreed to sign him to a 5 year contract for like $100 million when he was like 34 I thought "Man, they are not going to like paying the last couple of years or that contract."

A couple of years later, of course we not only trade for him, but send out Marion.

Sure, the team did ok with him for a year, but then we wanted to dump him and traded him for the 46th pick the following year, so lost Marion for 1 year of an old Shaq.

Then of course I remember when Houston decided to pay Paul $160 million over 4 years I thought "Man, those last couple of years...they are going to regret that."

So who looks to be paying that? Us, but not only will we be paying it, but sending out a couple of solid players and possibly the 10th pick.

How can you compare this hypothetical trade with that one losing Shawn Marion?

That trade was not good because we lost Marion and we incorparated a good player, but he could not defend and play uptempo anymore. Shaq was fun to watch but you could not win with his slow ass on defense.

Marion was a monster. 4X All-Star, amazing defender. I hated a lot losing him. But we are not trading anyone like him now, not even close. Rubio is an starting PG and Oubre a good 6th man, but you can not compare them to Marion who was the motor and heart of that team.

In this deal the key is adding the much better player in the trade, and it is clearly CP3. Shaq at that moment was injured and worse than Marion.


It's not so much the comparison of the caliber of player we were giving up..obviously Marion is on another planet to Oubre, and also quite a bit better than Rubio, but just the sheer size of their contracts (Paul's being double the amount) and age, while giving up starters, when the guys we were trading for were much older and at the tail end of their careers. And our team and core is going to hit it's prime in 3-5 years, right after Paul is gone...so we'd need to find another PG..and inserting some 1 or 2 year guy there or a MLE guy will be a MAJOR step back unless Paul has already succumbed to injury and/or had drastic decline.

I think you are thinking about too far ahead.

Teams change their players a lot, it is what it is. From our current roster who was here three years ago? Yeah, only Book.

You need to have a good team for next season and if that is the case you will find easier to have a good team in a couple of years too.

To think about rosters in 3-4 years is a mistake because there are so many changes and unknown things between now and then.

Stay here and now.
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Re: 2020 Season/Offseason (FA/Trade) Speculation - the Season Resumes 

Post#3912 » by BobbieL » Sat Nov 14, 2020 6:49 pm

bwgood77 wrote:
matt131 wrote:
BobbieL wrote:
Since it doesn't sound like this deal will be what the Nets did for Pierce and Garnett; or even what the Clippers gave up for PG13 - meaning future firsts, and switching picks and all that (hell for me - at worst, I mean at WORST< it should be flipping 10 for 25/53 but I don't think 10 should be in play ) - its a two year contract (Rubio was going to be done in two years) - for the team to make a push with the young Core 4 of Book, DA, Bridges and Cam. Thats how I view this deal - Paul will be a better influence/leader than Rubio.
Exactly. I mean, I love the current team we have. They were more fun to watch than any team we've had for a long time

But paul's contract is just as long as rubio's. If he can bring in free agents who, without him, would have been out of our price range, he will have added value. If he can whip Deandre into shape and get him to focus and be agrresive, he will have added value. If, at the end of his contract, he got us to two playoffs and other players notice we have a good, new culture and our young players are good, he will have added value.

I was initially against this trade and honestly still don't want to see Rubio or Oubre go. I love those guys. But even after 1 year, if it doesn't work, you have a 40 million dollar expiring contract that might actually he worth something to another team. The risk is high, but there are some contingency plans. The reward has a tremendously high ceiling, and it seems like that might over shadow the possible downside of the trade


What free agents? We don't have any money really. You mean Gallinari? He still isn't long for this league.

People keep mentioning expiring contracts. They are not worth that much anymore, except to a team looking to dump a long term $40 million contract. I don't understand why people view a huge expiring as easy to dump.

The great thing about an expiring contract if the player isn't worth it any more is that it expires the next year and is off your books...you certainly don't want to trade it and take on some salary dump from another team of a longer $40 million contract.

The only time you can probably get a good player back in the deal is if a team is deep into the tax for the future and needs to get out of it, but they would still need to send a ton of money back.


I just think if they stick with Rubio /Oubre, keep the 10th pick ,bring back Sario - that would leave 10-12m for two free agents under the cap. I think that team is a playoff team.

I want the deal to fall through -
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Re: 2020 Season/Offseason (FA/Trade) Speculation - the Season Resumes 

Post#3913 » by WeekapaugGroove » Sat Nov 14, 2020 6:56 pm

Saberestar wrote:
bwgood77 wrote:
Saberestar wrote:How can you compare this hypothetical trade with that one losing Shawn Marion?

That trade was not good because we lost Marion and we incorparated a good player, but he could not defend and play uptempo anymore. Shaq was fun to watch but you could not win with his slow ass on defense.

Marion was a monster. 4X All-Star, amazing defender. I hated a lot losing him. But we are not trading anyone like him now, not even close. Rubio is an starting PG and Oubre a good 6th man, but you can not compare them to Marion who was the motor and heart of that team.

In this deal the key is adding the much better player in the trade, and it is clearly CP3. Shaq at that moment was injured and worse than Marion.


It's not so much the comparison of the caliber of player we were giving up..obviously Marion is on another planet to Oubre, and also quite a bit better than Rubio, but just the sheer size of their contracts (Paul's being double the amount) and age, while giving up starters, when the guys we were trading for were much older and at the tail end of their careers. And our team and core is going to hit it's prime in 3-5 years, right after Paul is gone...so we'd need to find another PG..and inserting some 1 or 2 year guy there or a MLE guy will be a MAJOR step back unless Paul has already succumbed to injury and/or had drastic decline.

I think you are thinking about too far ahead.

Teams change their players a lot, it is what it is. From our current roster who was here three years ago? Yeah, only Book.

You need to have a good team for next season and if that is the case you will find easier to have a good team in a couple of years too.

To think about rosters in 3-4 years is a mistake because there are so many changes and unknown things between now and then.

Stay here and now.
This^

I've been a be patient guy in the past but that was because they weren't a move away and frankly booker wasn't the player he is now back then. They have to treat this like a 4 year window because that's all the longer you know you have booker and he's ready right now. The reality is no matter what they do he could bounce so maybe it's really a 3 year window because if you enter that last summer of his deal and he won't extend you have to at least have the trade conversation.

There just aren't many opportunities to add an all NBA guy without paying out the nose so I'm fine with this gamble and it would be fun to go into a year with expectations and a chance at an actual run. Like I truly believe if they add a couple other vets this team could not only make the playoffs but actually compete in them.

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Re: 2020 Season/Offseason (FA/Trade) Speculation - the Season Resumes 

Post#3914 » by Sunsdeuce » Sat Nov 14, 2020 7:17 pm

Djedefre wrote:Good luck with all that optimism regarding Ayton. Completely irrational, but i suppose it's easier to cope that way with prolly the biggest flop in franchise's history. If it was up to me, he'd be traded already.

If you don’t appreciate defense, rebounding, or interior game changing defense (or even analytics) than sure Doncic is your man. And if your thing is for a player to have the ball 90% of the time on offense than Ayton is not your guy. If jacking up threes while playing no defense is your think, than Doncic is your guy.

But if you appreciate all facets of the game and fundamentals, than Ayton is your guy. More to basketball than just scoring.
Not a big fan of analytics myself but almost all advanced stats say Ayton is a top 10 player on defense. He’s already a double double machine. He can guard anyone on the floor. Ayton changes the opponents willingness to drive the lane. That alone is game changing. I mean 30 pt 20 rebound games are what Ayton can, has and will do.

Point of all this is you can’t compare Ayton to Doncic. It’s like saying Chandler Jones is better than Deandre Hopkins. It an illogical comparison. Sure Doncic is going to get more points, he has the ball in his hand 90% of the time on offense and doesn’t have to contribute to the other side of the ball. Ayton’s position does not require him to have the ball in his hand all the time. But his position requires defense and rebounding. Fundamentals of basketball haven’t changed in 50 years. Defense leads to offense. Rebounds lead to scoring.
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Re: 2020 Season/Offseason (FA/Trade) Speculation - the Season Resumes 

Post#3915 » by Jarlaxle0204 » Sat Nov 14, 2020 7:30 pm

alamin330 wrote:FYI Chris Paul is not Steve Nash. Stop comparing them. Steve Nash had a chronic back condition Chris paul does not. Chris Paul is also better than Steve Nash

I was with you until that last sentence.
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Re: 2020 Season/Offseason (FA/Trade) Speculation - the Season Resumes 

Post#3916 » by Djedefre » Sat Nov 14, 2020 7:40 pm

bwgood77 wrote:
sunsbg wrote:
bwgood77 wrote:
We had 3 bigger flops in the 2 drafts directly prior to his alone. In the McD era Len might as well be mentioned as well. Also within the previous decade to him we had Earl Clark and Kendall Marshall. Won't go back further but that's like 6 lottery picks in 9 years.


If Ayton was not in the same draft as Doncic, people would have so different view of him. Yeah, he screwed with the suspension thing, but it's mind-boggling someone would call him the biggest flop in franchise's history.


Hey, I wanted Doncic, as I'm sure people know, but we could play that game all day with guys...Markieff over Kawhi, Len over Giannis. Now Doncic was more obvious, a clear cut top prospect and almost certainly a future multiple time MVP, but Ayton isn't a flop. He's already probably a top 10 C in his 2nd year and has only played like 109 games, on about 1.3 seasons, making major strides on the biggest concern, defense, in his second year. Sure he may be more like Aldridge on offense than Amare, but Aldridge has been pretty effective on that side over his career.


There is no such thing as move in a vacuum. Everything is relative. For example, in that 2017 draft we could have selected Fox, Lauri, Kuzma, Isaac, Anunoby, Adebayo, Allen, Collins, Mitchell and all of them would've been (from little bit to miles) better picks. A year before, we could've selected Murray, Hield, Siakam, Sabonis... Both times we were picking 4th while other teams before us (usually) grabbed clearly better players/prospects. But the thing is, none of them was that transformational talent that guarantees multiple ring chasing campaigns. On that horrid night of june the 21st we had a #1 pick for the first time in franchise's long history and spent it on an average starting center while missing by far the biggest bball talent since Bron. And there was that PG from Oklahoma too. When you take everything into account (pick #, talent pool, actual roster composition, moment our franchise was in...) that move remains our biggest setback.
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Re: 2020 Season/Offseason (FA/Trade) Speculation - the Season Resumes 

Post#3917 » by Saberestar » Sat Nov 14, 2020 7:40 pm

alamin330 wrote:FYI Chris Paul is not Steve Nash. Stop comparing them. Steve Nash had a chronic back condition Chris paul does not. Chris Paul is also better than Steve Nash

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Re: 2020 Season/Offseason (FA/Trade) Speculation - the Season Resumes 

Post#3918 » by DirtyDez » Sat Nov 14, 2020 7:44 pm

Jarlaxle0204 wrote:
alamin330 wrote:FYI Chris Paul is not Steve Nash. Stop comparing them. Steve Nash had a chronic back condition Chris paul does not. Chris Paul is also better than Steve Nash

I was with you until that last sentence.


Paul is/was a complete player. Nash was never one.
fromthetop321 wrote:I got Lebron number 1, he is also leading defensive player of the year. Curry's game still reminds me of Jeremy Lin to much.
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Re: 2020 Season/Offseason (FA/Trade) Speculation - the Season Resumes 

Post#3919 » by Jarlaxle0204 » Sat Nov 14, 2020 7:53 pm

DirtyDez wrote:
Jarlaxle0204 wrote:
alamin330 wrote:FYI Chris Paul is not Steve Nash. Stop comparing them. Steve Nash had a chronic back condition Chris paul does not. Chris Paul is also better than Steve Nash

I was with you until that last sentence.


Paul is/was a complete player. Nash was never one.

If you're saying Paul was a better defender, sure. Better player though? Nope. Steve Nash was a better passer and shooter. Both guys were great in their primes but I'd take Nash everyday.
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Re: 2020 Season/Offseason (FA/Trade) Speculation - the Season Resumes 

Post#3920 » by DirtyDez » Sat Nov 14, 2020 7:57 pm

Jarlaxle0204 wrote:
DirtyDez wrote:
Jarlaxle0204 wrote:I was with you until that last sentence.


Paul is/was a complete player. Nash was never one.

If you're saying Paul was a better defender, sure. Better player though? Nope. Steve Nash was a better passer and shooter. Both guys were great in their primes but I'd take Nash everyday.


Yes that’s what I’m saying. He wasn’t the wink link on one side of the ball.
fromthetop321 wrote:I got Lebron number 1, he is also leading defensive player of the year. Curry's game still reminds me of Jeremy Lin to much.

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