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2020 Season/Offseason (FA/Trade) Speculation - the Season Resumes

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If Suns get Chris Paul, who will be the 2nd leading scorer on the team?

Ayton
44
94%
Paul
3
6%
 
Total votes: 47

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Re: 2020 Season/Offseason (FA/Trade) Speculation - the Season Resumes 

Post#3921 » by Stark » Sat Nov 14, 2020 8:00 pm

DirtyDez wrote:
Jarlaxle0204 wrote:
alamin330 wrote:FYI Chris Paul is not Steve Nash. Stop comparing them. Steve Nash had a chronic back condition Chris paul does not. Chris Paul is also better than Steve Nash

I was with you until that last sentence.


Paul is/was a complete player. Nash was never one.


Paul will be 35 next year. 35 year old Steve averaged 16.5/11 while shooting 54/42/93 in 81 games. Carried his team to WCF while being the greatest teammate i've ever seen. I hope Paul can be as good as him.
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Re: 2020 Season/Offseason (FA/Trade) Speculation - the Season Resumes 

Post#3922 » by matt131 » Sat Nov 14, 2020 8:08 pm

bwgood77 wrote:
matt131 wrote:
BobbieL wrote:
Since it doesn't sound like this deal will be what the Nets did for Pierce and Garnett; or even what the Clippers gave up for PG13 - meaning future firsts, and switching picks and all that (hell for me - at worst, I mean at WORST< it should be flipping 10 for 25/53 but I don't think 10 should be in play ) - its a two year contract (Rubio was going to be done in two years) - for the team to make a push with the young Core 4 of Book, DA, Bridges and Cam. Thats how I view this deal - Paul will be a better influence/leader than Rubio.
Exactly. I mean, I love the current team we have. They were more fun to watch than any team we've had for a long time

But paul's contract is just as long as rubio's. If he can bring in free agents who, without him, would have been out of our price range, he will have added value. If he can whip Deandre into shape and get him to focus and be agrresive, he will have added value. If, at the end of his contract, he got us to two playoffs and other players notice we have a good, new culture and our young players are good, he will have added value.

I was initially against this trade and honestly still don't want to see Rubio or Oubre go. I love those guys. But even after 1 year, if it doesn't work, you have a 40 million dollar expiring contract that might actually he worth something to another team. The risk is high, but there are some contingency plans. The reward has a tremendously high ceiling, and it seems like that might over shadow the possible downside of the trade


What free agents? We don't have any money really. You mean Gallinari? He still isn't long for this league.

People keep mentioning expiring contracts. They are not worth that much anymore, except to a team looking to dump a long term $40 million contract. I don't understand why people view a huge expiring as easy to dump.

The great thing about an expiring contract if the player isn't worth it any more is that it expires the next year and is off your books...you certainly don't want to trade it and take on some salary dump from another team of a longer $40 million contract.

The only time you can probably get a good player back in the deal is if a team is deep into the tax for the future and needs to get out of it, but they would still need to send a ton of money back.



Free agents? Look at David Nash's IV point play newsletter. He does a great job of breaking down exactly what we could do with a Chris Paul trade and free agents. It seems to be more than you're thinking.

As for the expiring contract, I'm just saying, it could be, if used wisely and with the right team, deemed an asset, or at least not a terrible burden for us.

I guess my main point is that there are more outcomes than just "it will fail horribly" or "it will be a huge success" if we trade for Paul.
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Re: 2020 Season/Offseason (FA/Trade) Speculation - the Season Resumes 

Post#3923 » by Fo-Real » Sat Nov 14, 2020 8:19 pm

Let's not forget that next year Paul will be a HUGE expiring for trade if things aren't working out.
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Re: 2020 Season/Offseason (FA/Trade) Speculation - the Season Resumes 

Post#3924 » by Moochthemonkey » Sat Nov 14, 2020 8:33 pm

DirtyDez wrote:
Jarlaxle0204 wrote:
alamin330 wrote:FYI Chris Paul is not Steve Nash. Stop comparing them. Steve Nash had a chronic back condition Chris paul does not. Chris Paul is also better than Steve Nash

I was with you until that last sentence.


Paul is/was a complete player. Nash was never one.


Boris Diaw was a more complete player than Shaq. Doesn't mean he was 'better'.
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Re: 2020 Season/Offseason (FA/Trade) Speculation - the Season Resumes 

Post#3925 » by Slim Charless » Sat Nov 14, 2020 8:34 pm

Stark wrote:
DirtyDez wrote:
Jarlaxle0204 wrote:I was with you until that last sentence.


Paul is/was a complete player. Nash was never one.


Paul will be 35 next year. 35 year old Steve averaged 16.5/11 while shooting 54/42/93 in 81 games. Carried his team to WCF while being the greatest teammate i've ever seen. I hope Paul can be as good as him.


Those Suns teams that Nash had were infinitely more talented than the OKC team Paul just took to the playoffs and almost upset Houston with. Nash is a better teammate, for sure. He's much nicer and more pleasant but being nice doesn't always do it. Ayton needs an **** getting on him for being soft and this team in general needs more of an edge.

If the price is just Rubio and Oubre you gotta pull the trigger on that. It remains to be seen what else OKC is gonna want.
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Re: 2020 Season/Offseason (FA/Trade) Speculation - the Season Resumes 

Post#3926 » by DirtyDez » Sat Nov 14, 2020 8:36 pm

Stark wrote:
DirtyDez wrote:
Jarlaxle0204 wrote:I was with you until that last sentence.


Paul is/was a complete player. Nash was never one.


Paul will be 35 next year. 35 year old Steve averaged 16.5/11 while shooting 54/42/93 in 81 games. Carried his team to WCF while being the greatest teammate i've ever seen. I hope Paul can be as good as him.


Not sure what that has to do with my point. Nobody said Nash wasn’t an amazing offensive player and leader.
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Re: 2020 Season/Offseason (FA/Trade) Speculation - the Season Resumes 

Post#3927 » by Blonde » Sat Nov 14, 2020 8:45 pm

Looking forward to having two of the best closers in the league in our backcourt. Would be a stark change in circumstance from the last half decade. Rubio is good but definitely took ill advised shots and missed several clutch free throws in waning minutes.
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Re: 2020 Season/Offseason (FA/Trade) Speculation - the Season Resumes 

Post#3928 » by matt131 » Sat Nov 14, 2020 8:56 pm

Read on Twitter
?s=20

Flex comes on at around the 38 min mark.

He sure sounds discouraged from the past day or so. Seems like maybe one side is taking longer than expected to find a way to make this happen. I imagine it's us not being able to find a good home for Rubio and Oubre. Hopefully they read Kerrsed's 4 team trade proposal soon haha
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Re: 2020 Season/Offseason (FA/Trade) Speculation - the Season Resumes 

Post#3929 » by BobbieL » Sat Nov 14, 2020 9:05 pm

matt131 wrote:
Read on Twitter
?s=20

Flex comes on at around the 38 min mark.

He sure sounds discouraged from the past day or so. Seems like maybe one side is taking longer than expected to find a way to make this happen. I imagine it's us not being able to find a good home for Rubio and Oubre. Hopefully they read Kerrsed's 4 team trade proposal soon haha


I will not be disappointed if the deal falls through... we still have Rubio; we would still have Oubre, still would have 10-12m of cap space with which to get free agents (if Saric is brought back).

Just hope Booker isn't ticked off, Oubre isn't ticked and Rubio ticked off if the deal falls through. AS I do think with the 10th pick and cap space, the Suns can improve the current roster nicely. I mean, for Chris Paul you are giving basically Rubio, Oubre, Jerome and a 6-76m player to get to 41m cash outlay (and yes I know with the cap you really only need 33). I was all for being conservative this offseason anyway. Bringing back Saric, Oubre, finding a two guard and leaving yourself open for 2021 offseason.
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Re: 2020 Season/Offseason (FA/Trade) Speculation - the Season Resumes 

Post#3930 » by bwgood77 » Sat Nov 14, 2020 9:06 pm

BobbieL wrote:
bwgood77 wrote:
matt131 wrote:Exactly. I mean, I love the current team we have. They were more fun to watch than any team we've had for a long time

But paul's contract is just as long as rubio's. If he can bring in free agents who, without him, would have been out of our price range, he will have added value. If he can whip Deandre into shape and get him to focus and be agrresive, he will have added value. If, at the end of his contract, he got us to two playoffs and other players notice we have a good, new culture and our young players are good, he will have added value.

I was initially against this trade and honestly still don't want to see Rubio or Oubre go. I love those guys. But even after 1 year, if it doesn't work, you have a 40 million dollar expiring contract that might actually he worth something to another team. The risk is high, but there are some contingency plans. The reward has a tremendously high ceiling, and it seems like that might over shadow the possible downside of the trade


What free agents? We don't have any money really. You mean Gallinari? He still isn't long for this league.

People keep mentioning expiring contracts. They are not worth that much anymore, except to a team looking to dump a long term $40 million contract. I don't understand why people view a huge expiring as easy to dump.

The great thing about an expiring contract if the player isn't worth it any more is that it expires the next year and is off your books...you certainly don't want to trade it and take on some salary dump from another team of a longer $40 million contract.

The only time you can probably get a good player back in the deal is if a team is deep into the tax for the future and needs to get out of it, but they would still need to send a ton of money back.


I just think if they stick with Rubio /Oubre, keep the 10th pick ,bring back Sario - that would leave 10-12m for two free agents under the cap. I think that team is a playoff team.

I want the deal to fall through -


If they don't go through with the trade until after they sign free agents, they can still have that money and then execute the trade after the draft and FA.

If they do the trade first, they have to use the exceptions (though that will probably be just about as much money).
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Re: 2020 Season/Offseason (FA/Trade) Speculation - the Season Resumes 

Post#3931 » by alamin330 » Sat Nov 14, 2020 9:09 pm

As great as Steve Nash was for the Dantoni suns I still say KJ and Kidd are better basketball players. Nash was great for that system. No defense, high pick n roll, ssol. Nash and Paul are both high IQ guys. Nash made pristine, fancy passes; Chris paul makes the right pass.
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Re: 2020 Season/Offseason (FA/Trade) Speculation - the Season Resumes 

Post#3932 » by Sunsdeuce » Sat Nov 14, 2020 9:11 pm

DirtyDez wrote:
Jarlaxle0204 wrote:
DirtyDez wrote:
Paul is/was a complete player. Nash was never one.

If you're saying Paul was a better defender, sure. Better player though? Nope. Steve Nash was a better passer and shooter. Both guys were great in their primes but I'd take Nash everyday.


Yes that’s what I’m saying. He wasn’t the wink link on one side of the ball.


When did Chris Paul win MVP? I must have forgot.
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Re: 2020 Season/Offseason (FA/Trade) Speculation - the Season Resumes 

Post#3933 » by BobbieL » Sat Nov 14, 2020 9:12 pm

bwgood77 wrote:
BobbieL wrote:
bwgood77 wrote:
What free agents? We don't have any money really. You mean Gallinari? He still isn't long for this league.

People keep mentioning expiring contracts. They are not worth that much anymore, except to a team looking to dump a long term $40 million contract. I don't understand why people view a huge expiring as easy to dump.

The great thing about an expiring contract if the player isn't worth it any more is that it expires the next year and is off your books...you certainly don't want to trade it and take on some salary dump from another team of a longer $40 million contract.

The only time you can probably get a good player back in the deal is if a team is deep into the tax for the future and needs to get out of it, but they would still need to send a ton of money back.


I just think if they stick with Rubio /Oubre, keep the 10th pick ,bring back Sario - that would leave 10-12m for two free agents under the cap. I think that team is a playoff team.

I want the deal to fall through -


If they don't go through with the trade until after they sign free agents, they can still have that money and then execute the trade after the draft and FA.

If they do the trade first, they have to use the exceptions (though that will probably be just about as much money).



right -- if the trade goes through it has to be after free agency begins next Sunday 11/22. I get that might not have much more than the MLE - but it would better to have more than the MLE.

I am intrigued what Paul can do but it seems like it will take a lot from the roster.
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Re: 2020 Season/Offseason (FA/Trade) Speculation - the Season Resumes 

Post#3934 » by bwgood77 » Sat Nov 14, 2020 9:13 pm

Saberestar wrote:
bwgood77 wrote:
Saberestar wrote:Any of all those 15 that I have said...yes.

The other names that I have added are good PGs as Rubio that I can see being better or worse for a team depending of fit, salary, health...


I think you underestimate Rubio's impact on winning and net team results, even if others put up better individual numbers. As someone mentioned on the general board:

Oh, and a quick nugget: his career +/- so far is +950. His teams during those 9 seasons when he was off the floor: -1372. Talk about impact.


Don't forget how bad we were before Rubio and how that lineup with him and Bridges/Oubre at the wings were one of the best in the entire NBA. We just didn't start playing it until late in the season. We will lose 2 pieces of that.

I do not underestimate Rubio's impact, he is nice and I like him, but he is not Chris Paul.

With Rubio/Oubre we were not even a playoff team, we are not broken a contender by trading them. CP3 would make our team much better IMO.


Yes, if healthy, and if he continues to play at the level he just did, doesn't miss his usual number of games, it will impact, but health will matter, for him and Gallo.

Without Ayton for 30 games and with the other injuries we had, and with the development of Bridges and Cam throughout the season, I think we were set to be a solid team next year. We were much better once Cam and Bridges played bigger roles, and we'd have Oubre (or whoever else we would trade him for)...the team is much better than last year IF healthy, which is what you are assuming with Chris Paul. With our Bridges/Oubre at SF/PF or Bridges/Cam, we were beating opponents handily with those lineups with Rubio. His impact was huge compared to previous point guards.

There are multiple factors here though. Paul is obviously better but he is also old, very rarely plays more than about 65 games, would be gone in 2 years (almost certainly) and we lose wing depth.

I'm fine with the Paul trade actually if we don't have to give up a pick...I'd still rather not and voted with the 69% of people who would not pull the trigger, but giving up the 10 or a future first is a huge overpay for a 35 year old with that contract....one people KNOW OKC wants to unload.
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Re: 2020 Season/Offseason (FA/Trade) Speculation - the Season Resumes 

Post#3935 » by Kerrsed » Sat Nov 14, 2020 9:18 pm

Stark wrote:
DirtyDez wrote:
Jarlaxle0204 wrote:I was with you until that last sentence.


Paul is/was a complete player. Nash was never one.


Paul will be 35 next year. 35 year old Steve averaged 16.5/11 while shooting 54/42/93 in 81 games. Carried his team to WCF while being the greatest teammate i've ever seen. I hope Paul can be as good as him.


Well, instead of TALKING about comparing stats of two 35 year olds when one hasnt hit that age quite yet so you only provide stats from one side, why dont we just take stats from both of them at 34?

Image

I'd say offensively it was pretty close. Nash has the better percentages, but they are all awfully close except 3PT%. Nash with more assists (More turnovers as well). CP3 scoring more, rebounding more, collecting more steals. Defensively it isnt even close. 1.4 DBPM vs -2.1. Thats a HUGE difference and highlights Nash's complete lack of defense.
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Re: 2020 Season/Offseason (FA/Trade) Speculation - the Season Resumes 

Post#3936 » by bwgood77 » Sat Nov 14, 2020 9:19 pm

Saberestar wrote:
bwgood77 wrote:
Saberestar wrote:How can you compare this hypothetical trade with that one losing Shawn Marion?

That trade was not good because we lost Marion and we incorparated a good player, but he could not defend and play uptempo anymore. Shaq was fun to watch but you could not win with his slow ass on defense.

Marion was a monster. 4X All-Star, amazing defender. I hated a lot losing him. But we are not trading anyone like him now, not even close. Rubio is an starting PG and Oubre a good 6th man, but you can not compare them to Marion who was the motor and heart of that team.

In this deal the key is adding the much better player in the trade, and it is clearly CP3. Shaq at that moment was injured and worse than Marion.


It's not so much the comparison of the caliber of player we were giving up..obviously Marion is on another planet to Oubre, and also quite a bit better than Rubio, but just the sheer size of their contracts (Paul's being double the amount) and age, while giving up starters, when the guys we were trading for were much older and at the tail end of their careers. And our team and core is going to hit it's prime in 3-5 years, right after Paul is gone...so we'd need to find another PG..and inserting some 1 or 2 year guy there or a MLE guy will be a MAJOR step back unless Paul has already succumbed to injury and/or had drastic decline.

I think you are thinking about too far ahead.

Teams change their players a lot, it is what it is. From our current roster who was here three years ago? Yeah, only Book.

You need to have a good team for next season and if that is the case you will find easier to have a good team in a couple of years too.

To think about rosters in 3-4 years is a mistake because there are so many changes and unknown things between now and then.

Stay here and now.


Yeah, but you are talking about adding an injury prone 35 year old PG to hopefully make us a playoff team, and a long shot for the 2nd round team.

And maybe we add Gallinari (though not sure if we keep Saric)...but he is more injury prone. I do like continuity, and I agree, I'd love to get better right now, but there is risk if we get a taste of the playoffs, Paul is gone in 2 years, we take a step back and miss the playoffs because Memphis and New Orleans have gotten a lot better, and then Booker decides he wants to join a contender since we no longer have a legit experienced PG...people think he may want to leave anyway in 2 1/2-3 years, but if he gets a taste of the playoffs, then we regress and miss because we lose Paul or he's simply too old in a couple years to have much impact, Booker may really want to move to a true contender.
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Re: 2020 Season/Offseason (FA/Trade) Speculation - the Season Resumes 

Post#3937 » by bwgood77 » Sat Nov 14, 2020 9:22 pm

Kerrsed wrote:
Stark wrote:
DirtyDez wrote:
Paul is/was a complete player. Nash was never one.


Paul will be 35 next year. 35 year old Steve averaged 16.5/11 while shooting 54/42/93 in 81 games. Carried his team to WCF while being the greatest teammate i've ever seen. I hope Paul can be as good as him.


Well, instead of TALKING about comparing stats of two 35 year olds when one hasnt hit that age quite yet so you only provide stats from one side, why dont we just take stats from both of them at 34?

Image

I'd say offensively it was pretty close. Nash has the better percentages, but they are all awfully close except 3PT%. Nash with more assists (More turnovers as well). CP3 scoring more, rebounding more, collecting more steals. Defensively it isnt even close. 1.4 DBPM vs -2.1. Thats a HUGE difference and highlights Nash's complete lack of defense.


Paul is better. Nash was awesome in his peak for 5-6 years, but he also had the perfect situation with D'antoni's offense, before the league was prepared for it, had the perfect finisher in Amare, a phenomenal defensive wing in Marion, and surrounded by 3 pt shooters. Nash was better on offense but Paul is far far better on the other side, and still makes a huge impact on the offensive sid of the ball.
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Re: 2020 Season/Offseason (FA/Trade) Speculation - the Season Resumes 

Post#3938 » by alamin330 » Sat Nov 14, 2020 9:23 pm

Most seem to agree Paul is a better player than Rubio.
Suns went 8-0 in the bubble without Oubre.
Replace Rubio with Paul.
Add the player(s) Paul is trying to recruit.
All that above equals- Same 8-0 bubble team with a better point guard to lead us and more veteran experience. And none of you have to pay anything to get it done. Just sit back and enjoy.
The only concern should be what makes Booker happy. Booker is a future MVP, scoring champion, Nba champion, finals MVP. Just hope all that is with that Suns.
Rubio and oubre aren’t the pieces to get a team to the finals. Guys like Chris paul are
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Re: 2020 Season/Offseason (FA/Trade) Speculation - the Season Resumes 

Post#3939 » by Kerrsed » Sat Nov 14, 2020 9:26 pm

bwgood77 wrote:
Kerrsed wrote:
Stark wrote:
Paul will be 35 next year. 35 year old Steve averaged 16.5/11 while shooting 54/42/93 in 81 games. Carried his team to WCF while being the greatest teammate i've ever seen. I hope Paul can be as good as him.


Well, instead of TALKING about comparing stats of two 35 year olds when one hasnt hit that age quite yet so you only provide stats from one side, why dont we just take stats from both of them at 34?

Image

I'd say offensively it was pretty close. Nash has the better percentages, but they are all awfully close except 3PT%. Nash with more assists (More turnovers as well). CP3 scoring more, rebounding more, collecting more steals. Defensively it isnt even close. 1.4 DBPM vs -2.1. Thats a HUGE difference and highlights Nash's complete lack of defense.


Paul is better. Nash was awesome in his peak for 5-6 years, but he also had the perfect situation with D'antoni's offense, before the league was prepared for it, had the perfect finisher in Amare, a phenomenal defensive wing in Marion, and surrounded by 3 pt shooters. Nash was better on offense but Paul is far far better on the other side, and still makes a huge impact on the offensive sid of the ball.


Exactly. I was waiting to be attacked for this post before i brought up Dantoni and the taylor-made offense he created strictly for Nash, but you beat me to it. CP3 had some ok players at best on that OKC team (Gallo being the top guy), and somehow he still averaged about 8 assists. He puts in a ton of work to get guys good open shots.
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Re: 2020 Season/Offseason (FA/Trade) Speculation - the Season Resumes 

Post#3940 » by bwgood77 » Sat Nov 14, 2020 9:28 pm

Djedefre wrote:
bwgood77 wrote:
sunsbg wrote:
If Ayton was not in the same draft as Doncic, people would have so different view of him. Yeah, he screwed with the suspension thing, but it's mind-boggling someone would call him the biggest flop in franchise's history.


Hey, I wanted Doncic, as I'm sure people know, but we could play that game all day with guys...Markieff over Kawhi, Len over Giannis. Now Doncic was more obvious, a clear cut top prospect and almost certainly a future multiple time MVP, but Ayton isn't a flop. He's already probably a top 10 C in his 2nd year and has only played like 109 games, on about 1.3 seasons, making major strides on the biggest concern, defense, in his second year. Sure he may be more like Aldridge on offense than Amare, but Aldridge has been pretty effective on that side over his career.


There is no such thing as move in a vacuum. Everything is relative. For example, in that 2017 draft we could have selected Fox, Lauri, Kuzma, Isaac, Anunoby, Adebayo, Allen, Collins, Mitchell and all of them would've been (from little bit to miles) better picks. A year before, we could've selected Murray, Hield, Siakam, Sabonis... Both times we were picking 4th while other teams before us (usually) grabbed clearly better players/prospects. But the thing is, none of them was that transformational talent that guarantees multiple ring chasing campaigns. On that horrid night of june the 21st we had a #1 pick for the first time in franchise's long history and spent it on an average starting center while missing by far the biggest bball talent since Bron. And there was that PG from Oklahoma too. When you take everything into account (pick #, talent pool, actual roster composition, moment our franchise was in...) that move remains our biggest setback.


It was the wrong pick for sure...I don't know if I'd say a setback since we got better, but a flop is using a high pick on a guy that doesn't even make it to a 2nd contract. It was a HUGE opportunity cost because we'd likely have that MVP candidate...Doncic is already the favorite in his 3rd year when it comes to betting odds...so yeah, we'd be a contender this next year and not have to rely on a 35 year old PG to hopefully help us make the playoffs for a couple years.

I get your point, and it sucks, but I wouldn't classify it as a flop and certainly not the biggest one ever.

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