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Who is the second most important piece of our core?

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Second most important player in our young core

Ayton
34
62%
Bridges
21
38%
 
Total votes: 55

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Re: Who is the second most important piece of our core? 

Post#21 » by Biff » Mon Aug 24, 2020 7:52 pm

I think Bridges could definitely become another Siakam but I think our most important piece is Ayton. He has the potential to be the best player on the team. I'm skeptical of him ever maximizing his potential but there's no question what his potential is. If he ever starts playing with some aggression and can get to the line 6-7 trips a game and continue to improve defensively, he could be a 25 and 12 kind of center that is an absolute force on the defensive end. He'd be a top 10 player in the league then. But I could also see him averaging 20 and 12 for most of his career with 1.5-2 FTA/g and continue to score off soft layups and 15 footers, while providing solid defense. A nice player to have but not ideal given the kind of potential he has.
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Re: Who is the second most important piece of our core? 

Post#22 » by cberry78 » Mon Aug 24, 2020 9:03 pm

Biff wrote:I think Bridges could definitely become another Siakam but I think our most important piece is Ayton. He has the potential to be the best player on the team. I'm skeptical of him ever maximizing his potential but there's no question what his potential is. If he ever starts playing with some aggression and can get to the line 6-7 trips a game and continue to improve defensively, he could be a 25 and 12 kind of center that is an absolute force on the defensive end. He'd be a top 10 player in the league then. But I could also see him averaging 20 and 12 for most of his career with 1.5-2 FTA/g and continue to score off soft layups and 15 footers, while providing solid defense. A nice player to have but not ideal given the kind of potential he has.

If DA can get to the line 6+ times a game there's no reason he can't average 30 a night. As it stands, he's a 20/12 guy while being a "lazy" big man...a little bit of effort gives him 2 more baskets a game bumps him up to 24+, add in 6+ FT's and you're EASILY at 30 a night. Give him some wings that know how to consistently box out and he might be able to average 15 Rebounds a night.

Anyone want to turn their noses up at a 30/15 a night guy on insane efficiency?

Dreaming is free, but I don't think I'm that far off.
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Re: Who is the second most important piece of our core? 

Post#23 » by Biff » Mon Aug 24, 2020 10:33 pm

cberry78 wrote:
Biff wrote:I think Bridges could definitely become another Siakam but I think our most important piece is Ayton. He has the potential to be the best player on the team. I'm skeptical of him ever maximizing his potential but there's no question what his potential is. If he ever starts playing with some aggression and can get to the line 6-7 trips a game and continue to improve defensively, he could be a 25 and 12 kind of center that is an absolute force on the defensive end. He'd be a top 10 player in the league then. But I could also see him averaging 20 and 12 for most of his career with 1.5-2 FTA/g and continue to score off soft layups and 15 footers, while providing solid defense. A nice player to have but not ideal given the kind of potential he has.

If DA can get to the line 6+ times a game there's no reason he can't average 30 a night. As it stands, he's a 20/12 guy while being a "lazy" big man...a little bit of effort gives him 2 more baskets a game bumps him up to 24+, add in 6+ FT's and you're EASILY at 30 a night. Give him some wings that know how to consistently box out and he might be able to average 15 Rebounds a night.

Anyone want to turn their noses up at a 30/15 a night guy on insane efficiency?

Dreaming is free, but I don't think I'm that far off.


Sure, it doesn't take a wild imagination to believe that Ayton could peak as a 30/15 guy, he has all the tools to be that kind of center. However, I think that is basically close to his absolute potential and while I've been happy with his development defensively, he hasn't shown a ton of improvement offensively, so I'm a bit skeptical he ever gets there. 25/12 to me seems more reasonable to expect if he can just work on his aggressiveness.
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Re: Who is the second most important piece of our core? 

Post#24 » by bigfoot » Mon Aug 24, 2020 10:35 pm

cberry78 wrote:
Biff wrote:I think Bridges could definitely become another Siakam but I think our most important piece is Ayton. He has the potential to be the best player on the team. I'm skeptical of him ever maximizing his potential but there's no question what his potential is. If he ever starts playing with some aggression and can get to the line 6-7 trips a game and continue to improve defensively, he could be a 25 and 12 kind of center that is an absolute force on the defensive end. He'd be a top 10 player in the league then. But I could also see him averaging 20 and 12 for most of his career with 1.5-2 FTA/g and continue to score off soft layups and 15 footers, while providing solid defense. A nice player to have but not ideal given the kind of potential he has.

If DA can get to the line 6+ times a game there's no reason he can't average 30 a night. As it stands, he's a 20/12 guy while being a "lazy" big man...a little bit of effort gives him 2 more baskets a game bumps him up to 24+, add in 6+ FT's and you're EASILY at 30 a night. Give him some wings that know how to consistently box out and he might be able to average 15 Rebounds a night.

Anyone want to turn their noses up at a 30/15 a night guy on insane efficiency?

Dreaming is free, but I don't think I'm that far off.


The problem is I don't know how you fix lazy or low-motor guys. You can go to the gym and put up 40,000 three-pointers in the summer (Warren) or completely revamp your shot mechanics (Bridges). I'm not certain where I can recall a guy who just flipped the switch from a passive pansy to a dominating force.
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Re: Who is the second most important piece of our core? 

Post#25 » by SunsLyf3 » Mon Aug 24, 2020 10:50 pm

bigfoot wrote:
cberry78 wrote:
Biff wrote:I think Bridges could definitely become another Siakam but I think our most important piece is Ayton. He has the potential to be the best player on the team. I'm skeptical of him ever maximizing his potential but there's no question what his potential is. If he ever starts playing with some aggression and can get to the line 6-7 trips a game and continue to improve defensively, he could be a 25 and 12 kind of center that is an absolute force on the defensive end. He'd be a top 10 player in the league then. But I could also see him averaging 20 and 12 for most of his career with 1.5-2 FTA/g and continue to score off soft layups and 15 footers, while providing solid defense. A nice player to have but not ideal given the kind of potential he has.

If DA can get to the line 6+ times a game there's no reason he can't average 30 a night. As it stands, he's a 20/12 guy while being a "lazy" big man...a little bit of effort gives him 2 more baskets a game bumps him up to 24+, add in 6+ FT's and you're EASILY at 30 a night. Give him some wings that know how to consistently box out and he might be able to average 15 Rebounds a night.

Anyone want to turn their noses up at a 30/15 a night guy on insane efficiency?

Dreaming is free, but I don't think I'm that far off.


The problem is I don't know how you fix lazy or low-motor guys. You can go to the gym and put up 40,000 three-pointers in the summer (Warren) or completely revamp your shot mechanics (Bridges). I'm not certain where I can recall a guy who just flipped the switch from a passive pansy to a dominating force.

Pau Gasol after KG owned him in the finals.
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Re: Who is the second most important piece of our core? 

Post#26 » by Biff » Mon Aug 24, 2020 10:55 pm

bigfoot wrote:
cberry78 wrote:
Biff wrote:I think Bridges could definitely become another Siakam but I think our most important piece is Ayton. He has the potential to be the best player on the team. I'm skeptical of him ever maximizing his potential but there's no question what his potential is. If he ever starts playing with some aggression and can get to the line 6-7 trips a game and continue to improve defensively, he could be a 25 and 12 kind of center that is an absolute force on the defensive end. He'd be a top 10 player in the league then. But I could also see him averaging 20 and 12 for most of his career with 1.5-2 FTA/g and continue to score off soft layups and 15 footers, while providing solid defense. A nice player to have but not ideal given the kind of potential he has.

If DA can get to the line 6+ times a game there's no reason he can't average 30 a night. As it stands, he's a 20/12 guy while being a "lazy" big man...a little bit of effort gives him 2 more baskets a game bumps him up to 24+, add in 6+ FT's and you're EASILY at 30 a night. Give him some wings that know how to consistently box out and he might be able to average 15 Rebounds a night.

Anyone want to turn their noses up at a 30/15 a night guy on insane efficiency?

Dreaming is free, but I don't think I'm that far off.


The problem is I don't know how you fix lazy or low-motor guys. You can go to the gym and put up 40,000 three-pointers in the summer (Warren) or completely revamp your shot mechanics (Bridges). I'm not certain where I can recall a guy who just flipped the switch from a passive pansy to a dominating force.


I agree, fixing a players motor is more difficult than fixing mechanics issues or defensive technique. Maybe a sports psychologist could help him? Some sort sports-specific CBT therapy? I'm not really familiar with current techniques used on athletes but it seems like some form of CBT therapy could maybe help him react and respond to situations differently. Microdosing psilocybin or LSD actually has tons of promise for helping to rewire the brain but we aren't quite there yet as a society. Also, not sure if I trust Ayton to use psychedelics responsibly.
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Re: Who is the second most important piece of our core? 

Post#27 » by Saberestar » Mon Aug 24, 2020 10:58 pm

cberry78 wrote:
Biff wrote:I think Bridges could definitely become another Siakam but I think our most important piece is Ayton. He has the potential to be the best player on the team. I'm skeptical of him ever maximizing his potential but there's no question what his potential is. If he ever starts playing with some aggression and can get to the line 6-7 trips a game and continue to improve defensively, he could be a 25 and 12 kind of center that is an absolute force on the defensive end. He'd be a top 10 player in the league then. But I could also see him averaging 20 and 12 for most of his career with 1.5-2 FTA/g and continue to score off soft layups and 15 footers, while providing solid defense. A nice player to have but not ideal given the kind of potential he has.

If DA can get to the line 6+ times a game there's no reason he can't average 30 a night. As it stands, he's a 20/12 guy while being a "lazy" big man...a little bit of effort gives him 2 more baskets a game bumps him up to 24+, add in 6+ FT's and you're EASILY at 30 a night. Give him some wings that know how to consistently box out and he might be able to average 15 Rebounds a night.

Anyone want to turn their noses up at a 30/15 a night guy on insane efficiency?

Dreaming is free, but I don't think I'm that far off.

As it stands, he is a 18.2 points / 11.5 rebounds guy, and those are nice numbers as an starting C IF he will provide good overall defense, but that is something that he has not done consistently well yet.

Everything can happen, but I really don't see Ayton averaging an efficient 30/15 (or anything close to that) because of his low activity/motor. He would need to be relentless and hungry on the court to get to those numbers and he doesn't look that type of player to me.
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Re: Who is the second most important piece of our core? 

Post#28 » by Biff » Mon Aug 24, 2020 11:32 pm

Saberestar wrote:
cberry78 wrote:
Biff wrote:I think Bridges could definitely become another Siakam but I think our most important piece is Ayton. He has the potential to be the best player on the team. I'm skeptical of him ever maximizing his potential but there's no question what his potential is. If he ever starts playing with some aggression and can get to the line 6-7 trips a game and continue to improve defensively, he could be a 25 and 12 kind of center that is an absolute force on the defensive end. He'd be a top 10 player in the league then. But I could also see him averaging 20 and 12 for most of his career with 1.5-2 FTA/g and continue to score off soft layups and 15 footers, while providing solid defense. A nice player to have but not ideal given the kind of potential he has.

If DA can get to the line 6+ times a game there's no reason he can't average 30 a night. As it stands, he's a 20/12 guy while being a "lazy" big man...a little bit of effort gives him 2 more baskets a game bumps him up to 24+, add in 6+ FT's and you're EASILY at 30 a night. Give him some wings that know how to consistently box out and he might be able to average 15 Rebounds a night.

Anyone want to turn their noses up at a 30/15 a night guy on insane efficiency?

Dreaming is free, but I don't think I'm that far off.

As it stands, he is a 18.2 points / 11.5 rebounds guy, and those are nice numbers as an starting C IF he will provide good overall defense, but that is something that he has not done consistently well yet.

Everything can happen, but I really don't see Ayton averaging an efficient 30/15 (or anything close to that) because of his low activity/motor. He would need to be relentless and hungry on the court to get to those numbers and he doesn't look that type of player to me.



I don't see it either. He has the physical tools to be a 30/15 guy but mentally I can't see that ever materializing for him. Ayton would have to believe he's capable of that and I just haven't seen that kind of mental toughness from him. I think the coaches improving his technique, working on his skillset and maybe work on some go-to moves that generates some more trips to the line could help him improve to a 23-25ppg and 11-12rpg kind of center over the next few years. I think he and Booker would be close to a similar level then and we could be a very good team. At that point it would probably take Bridges shaping into a Siakam kind of player for us to be a strong perennial contender.
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Re: Who is the second most important piece of our core? 

Post#29 » by Revived » Tue Aug 25, 2020 10:10 am

bwgood77 wrote:
Revived wrote:
bigfoot wrote:
I'm not sure I agree with Ayton making a difference to the long-term team ceiling. The last two champs, Toronto and Golden State rely on wing players to get it done. The growth of Bridges, Cam Johnson, or the addition of another legit wing scorer who can create their own offense is what I think will happen eventually. Obviously, Ayton could have a huge offensive epiphany next season but if it never happens I'm less worried that his ceiling defines the Suns ceiling. So long as we can get to the playoffs with him we can attract a star free agent or trade for one to raise the team ceiling.

This. I don’t think people understand that big lofers are becoming obsolete in the NBA.

Joel Embiid just got send by a Boston Celtics team which has Daniel Theis and Enes Kanter as its best big men. The man that everyone refers to as the best center in the NBA, Nikola Jokic, is about to be send home in the first round. Jusuf Nurkic, another top 10 center, has been getting wrecked in the playoffs. Steven Adams looks clueless out there against a rotation which features 6’5 PJ Tucker as the best big man.

Rudy Gobert has been the only traditional C that’s having a good playoff run and even that is coming to an end next round because the Mavs or Clippers will take advantage of him with their wing players.

In terms of bigs, this league is now about guys like Siakam, Davis and Porzingis aka excellent rim protector with the ability to switch onto wings periodically and hit 3s. His teammate, and a personal favorite of mine Maxi Kleber does this as well (not as good a rim protector but still).

Brandon Clarke is about to be the next Porzingis. We need bigs of this caliber and Ayton’s not gonna be it.


Joel Embiid is playing with Shake Milton as his PG. We all know how much not having a PG matters. And Ben Simmons is among the best. It's weird everyone talking about Philly blowing up their team or trading Simmons when they got knocked out because he was INJURED. Last year they were a crazy Kawhi shot from knocking out the eventual champs in 7.

Embiid is their best player. They messed up with their roster a bit but that doesn't mean it's Embiid's fault. If Simmons was playing that series would have been a lot better.

If Boston was missing Tatum and Philly had Simmons and Philly swept, I don't know if people would be saying Boston should blow it up.

Jokic is playing one of the other best centers in the NBA who is on fire, Gobert...the best defensive anchor....who has been really efficient.

Now, Gobert has been deemed useless in the playoffs before against a small ball team like Houston, so we will see. I think Ayton would not be deemed as useless in such a scenario because he can switch.

This whole question about most important is tough, because if Ayton has a really good game, and everyone else just plays normal, we have A LOT better chance of winning. But Bridges and is defense and high IQ is there every night, and if we didn't have that to count on, I don't know where we'd be either since our defense wouldn't be terribly strong otherwise.

Bridges has our best on/off. Before he started with Oubre, we didn't look that good, while Oubre was starting with Saric...and then when Bridges was starting with Cam, the killer lineup continued. Ayton had always been in this lineup.

Even if Simmons was healthy, do you think Philly would beat Boston? I don’t. In some ways it would hurt Embiid more because it’s easy to double off Simmons since he can’t shoot 3s.

Ayton didn’t switch well during the bubble. I know in his rookie season he was excellent at it (defended LBJ/Giannis etc pretty well) but he got burnt frequently whenever we tried it in the bubble.

I think Ayton is more easily replaceable than Bridges. If we had a healthy Baynes out there instead of Ayton with the rest of the team intact, I doubt we notice a huge difference.

Now on the other hand if Bridges was out and we only had Oubre and Cam at the position, we would immediately notice the impact because Oubre and Cam aren’t anywhere close to being as disruptive defensively as Bridges is.

To me, the best way to answer this question is who is less easily replaceable based on our current roster outlook and for me, that’s Bridges.
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Re: Who is the second most important piece of our core? 

Post#30 » by Wilber85 » Tue Aug 25, 2020 3:57 pm

I cannot believe people already thinking Bridges is going to be the key piece lol.

Ayton is going to be a force. He will avg 20/12 easy this upcoming year. Plus his defense is improving. Wasn't he guarding Giannis?

Bridges will never avg 20/10. He will be a glue guy and defender but he will not become a #2
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Re: Who is the second most important piece of our core? 

Post#31 » by sunsbg » Tue Aug 25, 2020 6:53 pm

Mikal and Siakam have almost nothing in common in play style. Klay comparison still looks much better.
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Re: Who is the second most important piece of our core? 

Post#32 » by starbosa10 » Tue Aug 25, 2020 11:39 pm

Mikal will have a bigger impact in today's NBA unless Ayton plays consistently aggressive
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Re: Who is the second most important piece of our core? 

Post#33 » by bwgood77 » Wed Aug 26, 2020 12:12 am

starbosa10 wrote:Mikal will have a bigger impact in today's NBA unless Ayton plays consistently aggressive


He does have a bigger impact now. I have a hard time with this one, because if Ayton can reach his full potential, it will make a big difference. At the same time, I have always thought Bridges could end up being a potential light version of a Siakam/Leonard/George player too, which, in that case, it would be him.

One thing I will say about Ayton that I've been thinking about. Was thinking about Ayton some more and his bubble performance..because it didn't completely add up after his season. Thus are my thoughts. I always felt that Ayton was kind of a guy who overthinks things...maybe sometimes like a perfectionist does...like the paralysis by analysis thing, and that he would freeze....while the critics thought his help defense in college was laziness, watching his face I could tell he was overthinking it. I wondered if these instincts could be fixed or if they are set. Then his first year in the league, not much different.

But after working with coaches, and having Baynes around, poof, he breaks out on defense....helps a lot more, just tremendously looks like a different player on defense to me. I think this had to do with coaching, preseason, getting used to game speed, etc...and when he was out to suspension, watching, and practicing probably full speed with the guys. So he looks much improved. He still has to work on the offensive aggressiveness, but the bigger concern was defense...and he improved a great deal there.

Then quarantine happens. What can he do? No coaching really for a long time and not playing with other players to work on his most important things. He can practice 3s maybe.

So after all that, he comes back, and the speed of the game, and the intensity of the 2nd and 3rd games, puts him out of rythmn to where he had gotten, without much time to tune up and get where he was. I think the biggest problem (for me), is the help defense, and he suffered mostly there (compared to how he looked in the regular season), but I think that was partly because of what I mentioned above, partially because of facing Luka and then the Clippers early, and partly because he wasn't able to watch how Baynes did it out there, and Baynes, having showed up late, hurt him.

I know he also needs to work on energy, going to the rim, free throws, but those were things he already needed to work on.

I think the energy also hurt from not being able to get all the way into game shape, and just overthinking things as mentioned above.

All that being said, he still put up pretty good #s and I think his season should be judged moreso on the pre bubble time (just like everyone's should). But even having said that, despite the bad help defense for the most part, his numbers were still mostly solid for at least the first 5 games that were closer for a 2nd year, 22 year old C.

So after coming back to the bubble...little time to prepare...a few games....first game Wizards against Thomas Bryant who had killed him in the past. Starts off slow...people complaining, but finishes 11-14, a few trips to the line 2/3 from 3, 12 boards, 3 assists and a couple blocks. After a slow start, a solid game.

Then he runs into a couple teams warming up for the playoffs....first the Mavs and then the Clips, who, both from what we've seen, look like juggernauts in the playoffs. In the Mavs game he didn't play much due to foul trouble. In the Clipper game, he was kind of a disappointment...especially with rebounds, but had 19 pts on 50% shooting and 4 assists.

Then he had kind of warmed up, but people were already down on him because the Mavs game was bad because of foul trouble and the Clips was subpar but those were the tough healthy teams who were trying, and playing more to get ready for the playoffs.

Against Indy he was pretty impressive with 4 blocks along with his 23 points, 10 rebounds and 2 steals. (11-18 from field).

Against Miami he was more aggressive, getting to the line 5 times, though he also picked up 5 fouls, and ended up with 18 and 12 along with a couple assists....Miami was scrappy and fighting too despite missing Butler, Nunn and Dragic.

Then he gets in foul trouble in the next game, not playing many minutes.

I think with offseason work (though it will be shortened), and hopefully some gametape review, and his huge motivation to improve his NBA2K rating, will help him get back to where he was, with more 3s for sure, and hopefully the help D returns and he can start being more aggressive.

Sorry for the long Ghost-like post, if you made it this far.
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Re: Who is the second most important piece of our core? 

Post#34 » by cberry78 » Wed Aug 26, 2020 12:28 am

bwgood77 wrote:
starbosa10 wrote:Mikal will have a bigger impact in today's NBA unless Ayton plays consistently aggressive


He does have a bigger impact now. I have a hard time with this one, because if Ayton can reach his full potential, it will make a big difference. At the same time, I have always thought Bridges could end up being a potential light version of a Siakam/Leonard/George player too, which, in that case, it would be him.

One thing I will say about Ayton that I've been thinking about. Was thinking about Ayton some more and his bubble performance..because it didn't completely add up after his season. Thus are my thoughts. I always felt that Ayton was kind of a guy who overthinks things...maybe sometimes like a perfectionist does...like the paralysis by analysis thing, and that he would freeze....while the critics thought his help defense in college was laziness, watching his face I could tell he was overthinking it. I wondered if these instincts could be fixed or if they are set. Then his first year in the league, not much different.

But after working with coaches, and having Baynes around, poof, he breaks out on defense....helps a lot more, just tremendously looks like a different player on defense to me. I think this had to do with coaching, preseason, getting used to game speed, etc...and when he was out to suspension, watching, and practicing probably full speed with the guys. So he looks much improved. He still has to work on the offensive aggressiveness, but the bigger concern was defense...and he improved a great deal there.

Then quarantine happens. What can he do? No coaching really for a long time and not playing with other players to work on his most important things. He can practice 3s maybe.

So after all that, he comes back, and the speed of the game, and the intensity of the 2nd and 3rd games, puts him out of rythmn to where he had gotten, without much time to tune up and get where he was. I think the biggest problem (for me), is the help defense, and he suffered mostly there (compared to how he looked in the regular season), but I think that was partly because of what I mentioned above, partially because of facing Luka and then the Clippers early, and partly because he wasn't able to watch how Baynes did it out there, and Baynes, having showed up late, hurt him.

I know he also needs to work on energy, going to the rim, free throws, but those were things he already needed to work on.

I think the energy also hurt from not being able to get all the way into game shape, overthinking as mentioned above, and just overthinking things.

All that being said, he still put up pretty good #s and I think his season should be judged moreso on the pre bubble time (just like everyone's should). But even having said that, despite the bad help defense for the most part, his numbers were still solid for a 2nd year, 22 year old C.

So after coming back to the bubble...little time to prepare...a few games....first game Wizards against Thomas Bryant who had killed him in the past. Starts off slow...people complaining, but finishes 11-14, a few trips to the line 2/3 from 3, 12 boards, 3 assists and a couple blocks. After a slow start, a solid game.

Then he runs into a couple teams warming up for the playoffs....first the Mavs and then the Clips, who, both from what we've seen, look like juggernauts in the playoffs. In the Mavs game he didn't play much due to foul trouble. In the Clipper game, he was kind of a disappointment...especially with rebounds, but had 19 pts on 50% shooting and 4 assists.

Then he had kind of warmed up, but people were already down on him because the Mavs game was bad because of foul trouble and the Clips was subpar but those were the tough healthy teams who were trying, and playing more to get ready for the playoffs.

Against Indy he was pretty impressive with 4 blocks along with his 23 points, 10 rebounds and 2 steals. (11-18 from field).

Against Miami he was more aggressive, getting to the line 5 times, though he also picked up 5 fouls, and ended up with 18 and 12 along with a couple assists....Miami was scrappy and fighting too despite missing Butler, Nunn and Dragic.

Then he gets in foul trouble in the next game, not playing many minutes.

I think with offseason work (though it will be shortened), and hopefully some gametape review, and his huge motivation to improve his NBA2K rating, will help him get back to where he was, with more 3s for sure, and hopefully the help D returns and he can start being more aggressive.

Sorry for the long Ghost-like post, if you made it this far.

Great post and I agree with everything you said and would upvote it more than once if I could!

One of the things that Windhorst said during the interview today was that the League may postpone the start of next season until March to get fans in the arenas - there're to many teams losing money by not having the fans at the arenas that the league will postpone things as much as possible to get that revenue back, especially for those smaller market teams.

(Needs more videos to be Ghost-like. :lol: :lol: :lol: )
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Re: Who is the second most important piece of our core? 

Post#35 » by sunsbg » Wed Aug 26, 2020 8:23 am

sunsbg wrote:Mikal and Siakam have almost nothing in common in play style. Klay comparison still looks much better.


On second thought I would say an ex-Sun in Marion is even better comparison. Future impact and role will most probably be in this order - Booker(Nash), DA(Amare), Mikal(Marion).

Marion and Bridges are not players, who are able to create their own shots contrary to Siakam. Both can't create much for others either because of the lack of great ball-handling skills, though Marion used to throw some lobs to Amare from the FT line. They should use that with Mikal and Ayton as well.
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Re: Who is the second most important piece of our core? 

Post#36 » by Saberestar » Wed Aug 26, 2020 10:35 am

bwgood77 wrote:
"All that being said, he still put up pretty good #s and I think his season should be judged moreso on the pre bubble time (just like everyone's should). But even having said that, despite the bad help defense for the most part, his numbers were still mostly solid for at least the first 5 games that were closer for a 2nd year, 22 year old C."


"Against Miami he was more aggressive, getting to the line 5 times, though he also picked up 5 fouls, and ended up with 18 and 12 along with a couple assists....Miami was scrappy and fighting too despite missing Butler, Nunn and Dragic".

Ayton just played 38 games. Eight of those games were in the bubble, so that's 21% of his season. That is not an small sample size, so I think he needs to be judged by his pre bubble time AND his play in the bubble.

We know why he just played 38 games ...that's a big deal too.

And regarding his game against Miami...that was one of his worst performances so far in his career. I don't care about his numbers at the end of that game, the truth is that he was not aggressive at all and he was clueless on both sides. Sometimes numbers don't tell the full story. If you have enough time just watch the replay. I am sure you that you will tell me that I was right about it.

I hate to be tough on Ayton, he seems to be a fantastic guy, but it's what it is. He was the only disappointing player on that 8-0 run.
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Re: Who is the second most important piece of our core? 

Post#37 » by bwgood77 » Wed Aug 26, 2020 2:10 pm

Saberestar wrote:
bwgood77 wrote:
"All that being said, he still put up pretty good #s and I think his season should be judged moreso on the pre bubble time (just like everyone's should). But even having said that, despite the bad help defense for the most part, his numbers were still mostly solid for at least the first 5 games that were closer for a 2nd year, 22 year old C."


"Against Miami he was more aggressive, getting to the line 5 times, though he also picked up 5 fouls, and ended up with 18 and 12 along with a couple assists....Miami was scrappy and fighting too despite missing Butler, Nunn and Dragic".

Ayton just played 38 games. Eight of those games were in the bubble, so that's 21% of his season. That is not an small sample size, so I think he needs to be judged by his pre bubble time AND his play in the bubble.

We know why he just played 38 games ...that's a big deal too.

And regarding his game against Miami...that was one of his worst performances so far in his career. I don't care about his numbers at the end of that game, the truth is that he was not aggressive at all and he was clueless on both sides. Sometimes numbers don't tell the full story. If you have enough time just watch the replay. I am sure you that you will tell me that I was right about it.

I hate to be tough on Ayton, he seems to be a fantastic guy, but it's what it is. He was the only disappointing player on that 8-0 run.


8 games is still a small sample size. Yes, as I mentioned, the Miami game was tough, and I think they exploit him well and are very well coached and create havoc. And he struggled with his overthinking things and being overwhelmed. But despite all that, he still got to the line a lot more than usual and had over his season averages (except .2 fewer points than avg), despite not shooting well. I'm not huge on raw numbers, so yes, he was out of position and lacked aggressiveness at times, but again, I think it comes down to a lot of overthinking and the way Miami planned, I think he gets overwhelmed. Is that a good excuse? No, but that was mostly what my post was about...I think it is more overthinking, sometimes getting overwhelmed rather than just being lazy and/or not caring...which is what I've seen and felt since college. This is part of the reason I wanted Doncic, other than the fact that Doncic was killing it winning MVP and stuff, but I do think Ayton will get better by simply playing more, getting used to game speed, adapting, coaching, hopefully watching a lot of tape, etc.
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Re: Who is the second most important piece of our core? 

Post#38 » by bwgood77 » Wed Aug 26, 2020 2:13 pm

sunsbg wrote:
sunsbg wrote:Mikal and Siakam have almost nothing in common in play style. Klay comparison still looks much better.


On second thought I would say an ex-Sun in Marion is even better comparison. Future impact and role will most probably be in this order - Booker(Nash), DA(Amare), Mikal(Marion).

Marion and Bridges are not players, who are able to create their own shots contrary to Siakam. Both can't create much for others either because of the lack of great ball-handling skills, though Marion used to throw some lobs to Amare from the FT line. They should use that with Mikal and Ayton as well.


Bridges can be really good at creating for others depending on how he is utilized. He has had 7 and 8 assist games. He has a high IQ and sees the floor very well. He can also create his own shot if needed, but again, isn't utilized in that way, and creating your own shot isn't ideal for anyone if you can work within a team and work on open shots, assisted plays, team play, etc, which he understands.
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Re: Who is the second most important piece of our core? 

Post#39 » by sunsbg » Wed Aug 26, 2020 6:24 pm

bwgood77 wrote:
sunsbg wrote:
sunsbg wrote:Mikal and Siakam have almost nothing in common in play style. Klay comparison still looks much better.


On second thought I would say an ex-Sun in Marion is even better comparison. Future impact and role will most probably be in this order - Booker(Nash), DA(Amare), Mikal(Marion).

Marion and Bridges are not players, who are able to create their own shots contrary to Siakam. Both can't create much for others either because of the lack of great ball-handling skills, though Marion used to throw some lobs to Amare from the FT line. They should use that with Mikal and Ayton as well.


Bridges can be really good at creating for others depending on how he is utilized. He has had 7 and 8 assist games. He has a high IQ and sees the floor very well. He can also create his own shot if needed, but again, isn't utilized in that way, and creating your own shot isn't ideal for anyone if you can work within a team and work on open shots, assisted plays, team play, etc, which he understands.


I agree with the bolded part. All he's shown so far is playing within the system. Nothing wrong with that. Applies to Ayton as well, who's two years younger and position doesn't really require creating for others. Both have averaged the same number of assists over two seasons. Whether they become more of the focus of the opponent's defense, which will mean increase in assist numbers is yet to be seen though.
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Re: Who is the second most important piece of our core? 

Post#40 » by bwgood77 » Wed Aug 26, 2020 6:30 pm

sunsbg wrote:
bwgood77 wrote:
sunsbg wrote:
On second thought I would say an ex-Sun in Marion is even better comparison. Future impact and role will most probably be in this order - Booker(Nash), DA(Amare), Mikal(Marion).

Marion and Bridges are not players, who are able to create their own shots contrary to Siakam. Both can't create much for others either because of the lack of great ball-handling skills, though Marion used to throw some lobs to Amare from the FT line. They should use that with Mikal and Ayton as well.


Bridges can be really good at creating for others depending on how he is utilized. He has had 7 and 8 assist games. He has a high IQ and sees the floor very well. He can also create his own shot if needed, but again, isn't utilized in that way, and creating your own shot isn't ideal for anyone if you can work within a team and work on open shots, assisted plays, team play, etc, which he understands.


I agree with the bolded part. All he's shown so far is playing within the system. Nothing wrong with that. Applies to Ayton as well, who's two years younger and position doesn't really require creating for others. Both have averaged the same number of assists over two seasons. Whether they become more of a focus of the defense, which will mean increase in assist numbers is yet to be seen though.


I think they both could easily average more assists, because they have the floor vision (Ayton on offense) and skills, but with basically two primary ball handlers who kind of dominate the ball and set up others in Rubio and Booker, I think that they are just mostly utilized as finishers right now. I think if the circumstances were different, both could average more assists, but typically when they get the ball they are supposed to shoot or move it quickly in the .5 offense. I'm glad neither does a lot of dribbling, but I think it's something they can do...it's not either's strength though, and something they could work on, but it's not really their role to be big set up guys within the offense even though I think both are good at it.

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