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Who is the second most important piece of our core?

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Second most important player in our young core

Ayton
34
62%
Bridges
21
38%
 
Total votes: 55

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Re: Who is the second most important piece of our core? 

Post#41 » by sunsbg » Wed Aug 26, 2020 7:33 pm

bwgood77 wrote:
sunsbg wrote:
bwgood77 wrote:
Bridges can be really good at creating for others depending on how he is utilized. He has had 7 and 8 assist games. He has a high IQ and sees the floor very well. He can also create his own shot if needed, but again, isn't utilized in that way, and creating your own shot isn't ideal for anyone if you can work within a team and work on open shots, assisted plays, team play, etc, which he understands.


I agree with the bolded part. All he's shown so far is playing within the system. Nothing wrong with that. Applies to Ayton as well, who's two years younger and position doesn't really require creating for others. Both have averaged the same number of assists over two seasons. Whether they become more of a focus of the defense, which will mean increase in assist numbers is yet to be seen though.


I think they both could easily average more assists, because they have the floor vision (Ayton on offense) and skills, but with basically two primary ball handlers who kind of dominate the ball and set up others in Rubio and Booker, I think that they are just mostly utilized as finishers right now. I think if the circumstances were different, both could average more assists, but typically when they get the ball they are supposed to shoot or move it quickly in the .5 offense. I'm glad neither does a lot of dribbling, but I think it's something they can do...it's not either's strength though, and something they could work on, but it's not really their role to be big set up guys within the offense even though I think both are good at it.


Yep, both appear to fit well in Monty's system. If they keep improving individually and gelling as a team we can have a contender in a few seasons. Much more entertaining and less predictable offense than one player dominating the ball, or ISO most of the time like the Raptors are doing with Siakam in the few games I watched this season. Just don't see Mikal in his role as I think he approaches the game differently.
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Re: Who is the second most important piece of our core? 

Post#42 » by GoodBehavior » Wed Aug 26, 2020 8:23 pm

Ayton is the foundation piece of the entire team, IMO. Without him, the team was losing to a depleted Thunders team. Even when his stats were underwhelming, his gravity is still legit. Kinda like Tim Duncan post-injury. My gut feeling is everyone's stats is better with him in the lineup. Booker is the star of the team, but I don't think he's a player you built around. I have reservation that his style of play (iso, mid-range jumpers) can be the foundation of a playoff team, especially with where the game is heading. Not to mention his liability on D and average play-making.

Mikal is a Kyle Lowry-type of players. He'll put up 11 points but seems to be everywhere. To me, Ayton is the foundation that gets you to the playoff. And Mikal is the kinda player you need for a championship run. That X-factor.
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Re: Who is the second most important piece of our core? 

Post#44 » by bwgood77 » Sat Sep 5, 2020 3:15 pm



Our board is often the source for ideas and information. I even think some of the write up is similar. It really is a tough question. Right now our 2nd most important player is Rubio without a doubt, because without him, we'd be terrible. We've seen that. But the ultimate argument for upside comes to Ayton, but you still need a PG at least as impact as Rubio, because you don't want Book as near full time primary ball handler and want him to get a lot of catch and shoots. Then Bridges is VERY important to take on the opponents best wing...and to provide that defense next to Booker. I was a little surprised Oubre got more votes than Bridges. I know he's immensely popular due to his highlight plays and looks, especially among casual fans and those who just look at raw #s, and highlight plays as opposed to efficiency on offense and defensive impact rather than steals, blocks and not bad one on one defense. It is interesting to read also that what they state as his cons are things I have mentioned here a lot based on research and eye test but hadn't seen much discussion about it written. They often look at PPG to determine how good a player is.
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Re: Who is the second most important piece of our core? 

Post#45 » by Frank Lee » Mon Sep 7, 2020 12:59 am

Hitching the wagon to Ayton isn’t something we should rely on next year. Not when he’s still a ‘My Little Pony’. Continued Improvement from Cam and Mikal, the over all familiarity with Rubio, and a strong bench is what will drive us to more wins. I’m fine with DeYawndre’s sleepy 20 and 10s. He won’t deserve the max, if there’s a silver lining to too nice demeanor.

PS... I’ll dub Rubio as #2 as well. He ought not be anything other than a Sun for his remaining dribbles
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Re: Who is the second most important piece of our core? 

Post#46 » by Qwigglez » Mon Sep 7, 2020 6:21 am

It's definitely Rubio, though I hope it eventually turns into Ayton.
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Re: Who is the second most important piece of our core? 

Post#47 » by King4Day » Fri Sep 11, 2020 12:33 pm

Bridges is an incredible role player. Ayton is the difference in how big of a contender we become.
I go with Ayton. If he doesn't become a star, it likely causes a big enough setback to where we'll need to rebuild again in the near future.
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Re: Who is the second most important piece of our core? 

Post#48 » by sunsbg » Sat Sep 12, 2020 2:18 pm

bwgood77 wrote:


Our board is often the source for ideas and information. I even think some of the write up is similar. It really is a tough question. Right now our 2nd most important player is Rubio without a doubt, because without him, we'd be terrible. We've seen that. But the ultimate argument for upside comes to Ayton, but you still need a PG at least as impact as Rubio, because you don't want Book as near full time primary ball handler and want him to get a lot of catch and shoots. Then Bridges is VERY important to take on the opponents best wing...and to provide that defense next to Booker. I was a little surprised Oubre got more votes than Bridges. I know he's immensely popular due to his highlight plays and looks, especially among casual fans and those who just look at raw #s, and highlight plays as opposed to efficiency on offense and defensive impact rather than steals, blocks and not bad one on one defense. It is interesting to read also that what they state as his cons are things I have mentioned here a lot based on research and eye test but hadn't seen much discussion about it written. They often look at PPG to determine how good a player is.


Well, it's easy for casuals to be wrong when even the coach played Oubre more games as a starter though Mikal is rightfully considered the better fit. You seem to overrate advanced stats way too much. There are basic stats like FG%, which tell you the same story. Not that using your eyes is not enough.
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Re: Who is the second most important piece of our core? 

Post#49 » by bwgood77 » Sat Sep 12, 2020 2:38 pm

sunsbg wrote:
bwgood77 wrote:


Our board is often the source for ideas and information. I even think some of the write up is similar. It really is a tough question. Right now our 2nd most important player is Rubio without a doubt, because without him, we'd be terrible. We've seen that. But the ultimate argument for upside comes to Ayton, but you still need a PG at least as impact as Rubio, because you don't want Book as near full time primary ball handler and want him to get a lot of catch and shoots. Then Bridges is VERY important to take on the opponents best wing...and to provide that defense next to Booker. I was a little surprised Oubre got more votes than Bridges. I know he's immensely popular due to his highlight plays and looks, especially among casual fans and those who just look at raw #s, and highlight plays as opposed to efficiency on offense and defensive impact rather than steals, blocks and not bad one on one defense. It is interesting to read also that what they state as his cons are things I have mentioned here a lot based on research and eye test but hadn't seen much discussion about it written. They often look at PPG to determine how good a player is.


Well, it's easy for casuals to be wrong when even the coach played Oubre more games as a starter though Mikal is rightfully considered the better fit. You seem to overrate advanced stats way too much. There are basic stats like FG%, which tell you the same story. Not that using your eyes is not enough.


I use both the eyes and the advanced stats because one may tell you something the other doesn't see. Not sure what you are referring to by FG%, where Mikal is far better, but I don't put much stock in basic FG% since it depends on how many 3s someone shoots.

Nurkic has a lot better FG% than Lillard, but it certainly doesn't mean he is a more impactful scorer, given the entire context and how many 3s Lillard shoots at a high %.
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Re: Who is the second most important piece of our core? 

Post#50 » by LesGrossman » Sat Sep 12, 2020 2:50 pm

My point would (obviously) be that stats dont tell the whole story. The thread asks for the second most important piece of the roster (assuming that Booker HAS to be #1). My pitch at this point would clearly be Rubio, then Mikal, then Ayton. Meaning that it would hurt less if they were not able to play, in that order. At this point, Ayton doesnt win games, but he is important and commands gravity. Mikal looks great but a big part of that is also the open looks he gets from Ricky, both from 3 and when cutting. I'm not sure he would not look a lot more useless if not spoonfed. Very disappointed that after this season, the hardcore fans in here just consider the options in this poll.
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Re: Who is the second most important piece of our core? 

Post#51 » by sunsbg » Sat Sep 12, 2020 3:08 pm

bwgood77 wrote:
sunsbg wrote:
bwgood77 wrote:
Our board is often the source for ideas and information. I even think some of the write up is similar. It really is a tough question. Right now our 2nd most important player is Rubio without a doubt, because without him, we'd be terrible. We've seen that. But the ultimate argument for upside comes to Ayton, but you still need a PG at least as impact as Rubio, because you don't want Book as near full time primary ball handler and want him to get a lot of catch and shoots. Then Bridges is VERY important to take on the opponents best wing...and to provide that defense next to Booker. I was a little surprised Oubre got more votes than Bridges. I know he's immensely popular due to his highlight plays and looks, especially among casual fans and those who just look at raw #s, and highlight plays as opposed to efficiency on offense and defensive impact rather than steals, blocks and not bad one on one defense. It is interesting to read also that what they state as his cons are things I have mentioned here a lot based on research and eye test but hadn't seen much discussion about it written. They often look at PPG to determine how good a player is.


Well, it's easy for casuals to be wrong when even the coach played Oubre more games as a starter though Mikal is rightfully considered the better fit. You seem to overrate advanced stats way too much. There are basic stats like FG%, which tell you the same story. Not that using your eyes is not enough.


I use both the eyes and the advanced stats because one may tell you something the other doesn't see. Not sure what you are referring to by FG%, where Mikal is far better, but I don't put much stock in basic FG% since it depends on how many 3s someone shoots.

Nurkic has a lot better FG% than Lillard, but it certainly doesn't mean he is a more impactful scorer, given the entire context and how many 3s Lillard shoots at a high %.


Just saying that looking at basic stats can reveal the same results. Both basic and advanced stats taken out of context look flowed in the same way to me. On top of that neither will tell you who has better skills to create their own shot, who's more clutch, whose O game doesn't depend on Rubio's passing as much. Just a few examples I think are in Oubre's favor. There are others in Mikal's favor of course.

Those two are not finished products. Oubre has improved in every season so far, there's a chance he becomes a more efficient player, better defender. Mikal will certainly continue to improve in areas not his strength right now as well.
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Re: Who is the second most important piece of our core? 

Post#52 » by sunsbg » Sat Sep 12, 2020 3:13 pm

LesGrossman wrote:My point would (obviously) be that stats dont tell the whole story. The thread asks for the second most important piece of the roster (assuming that Booker HAS to be #1). My pitch at this point would clearly be Rubio, then Mikal, then Ayton. Meaning that it would hurt less if they were not able to play, in that order. At this point, Ayton doesnt win games, but he is important and commands gravity. Mikal looks great but a big part of that is also the open looks he gets from Ricky, both from 3 and when cutting. I'm not sure he would not look a lot more useless if not spoonfed. Very disappointed that after this season, the hardcore fans in here just consider the options in this poll.


It depends how you look at the question. When talking about a core, most posters probably think about the future. Many probably don't even consider Rubio part of it. Talking about this season he's certainly second most important.
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Re: Who is the second most important piece of our core? 

Post#53 » by bwgood77 » Sat Sep 12, 2020 3:54 pm

sunsbg wrote:
bwgood77 wrote:
sunsbg wrote:
Well, it's easy for casuals to be wrong when even the coach played Oubre more games as a starter though Mikal is rightfully considered the better fit. You seem to overrate advanced stats way too much. There are basic stats like FG%, which tell you the same story. Not that using your eyes is not enough.


I use both the eyes and the advanced stats because one may tell you something the other doesn't see. Not sure what you are referring to by FG%, where Mikal is far better, but I don't put much stock in basic FG% since it depends on how many 3s someone shoots.

Nurkic has a lot better FG% than Lillard, but it certainly doesn't mean he is a more impactful scorer, given the entire context and how many 3s Lillard shoots at a high %.


Just saying that looking at basic stats can reveal the same results. Both basic and advanced stats taken out of context look flowed in the same way to me. On top of that neither will tell you who has better skills to create their own shot, who's more clutch, whose O game doesn't depend on Rubio's passing as much. Just a few examples I think are in Oubre's favor. There are others in Mikal's favor of course.

Those two are not finished products. Oubre has improved in every season so far, there's a chance he becomes a more efficient player, better defender. Mikal will certainly continue to improve in areas not his strength right now as well.


Oubre not good at creating his own shot. Best at getting open 3s or fast break dunks. Anything else usually results in a bad shot or turnover, often driving into several defenders.
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Re: Who is the second most important piece of our core? 

Post#54 » by sunsbg » Sat Sep 12, 2020 5:11 pm

bwgood77 wrote:
sunsbg wrote:
bwgood77 wrote:
I use both the eyes and the advanced stats because one may tell you something the other doesn't see. Not sure what you are referring to by FG%, where Mikal is far better, but I don't put much stock in basic FG% since it depends on how many 3s someone shoots.

Nurkic has a lot better FG% than Lillard, but it certainly doesn't mean he is a more impactful scorer, given the entire context and how many 3s Lillard shoots at a high %.


Just saying that looking at basic stats can reveal the same results. Both basic and advanced stats taken out of context look flowed in the same way to me. On top of that neither will tell you who has better skills to create their own shot, who's more clutch, whose O game doesn't depend on Rubio's passing as much. Just a few examples I think are in Oubre's favor. There are others in Mikal's favor of course.

Those two are not finished products. Oubre has improved in every season so far, there's a chance he becomes a more efficient player, better defender. Mikal will certainly continue to improve in areas not his strength right now as well.


Oubre not good at creating his own shot. Best at getting open 3s or fast break dunks. Anything else usually results in a bad shot or turnover, often driving into several defenders.


He's certainly better at those drives starting at the 3 ending with a dunk than Mikal. May not be the most efficient at it and not the most important thing in a team sport, but it's still a basketball skill. One could argue if he really draws several players on those drives he just needs to learn to pass to an open man in those situations to become a very valuable player. Basketball is for entertainment after all, so highlights are nothing to complain about.

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Re: Who is the second most important piece of our core? 

Post#55 » by darmani » Sat Sep 12, 2020 7:24 pm

bwgood77 wrote:
sunsbg wrote:
bwgood77 wrote:
I use both the eyes and the advanced stats because one may tell you something the other doesn't see. Not sure what you are referring to by FG%, where Mikal is far better, but I don't put much stock in basic FG% since it depends on how many 3s someone shoots.

Nurkic has a lot better FG% than Lillard, but it certainly doesn't mean he is a more impactful scorer, given the entire context and how many 3s Lillard shoots at a high %.


Just saying that looking at basic stats can reveal the same results. Both basic and advanced stats taken out of context look flowed in the same way to me. On top of that neither will tell you who has better skills to create their own shot, who's more clutch, whose O game doesn't depend on Rubio's passing as much. Just a few examples I think are in Oubre's favor. There are others in Mikal's favor of course.

Those two are not finished products. Oubre has improved in every season so far, there's a chance he becomes a more efficient player, better defender. Mikal will certainly continue to improve in areas not his strength right now as well.


Oubre not good at creating his own shot. Best at getting open 3s or fast break dunks. Anything else usually results in a bad shot or turnover, often driving into several defenders.

That's BS. GTFO with your constant anti-Oubre nonsense.

Oubre:
51.9 eFG% on 2.8 pull ups per game
45.8 FG% and 6.0 TOV% on 6.1 drives per game

Mikal:
47.1 eFG% on 0.7 pull ups per game
39.6 FG% and 9.0 TOV% on 2.9 drives per game
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Re: Who is the second most important piece of our core? 

Post#56 » by bwgood77 » Sat Sep 12, 2020 8:15 pm

darmani wrote:
bwgood77 wrote:
sunsbg wrote:
Just saying that looking at basic stats can reveal the same results. Both basic and advanced stats taken out of context look flowed in the same way to me. On top of that neither will tell you who has better skills to create their own shot, who's more clutch, whose O game doesn't depend on Rubio's passing as much. Just a few examples I think are in Oubre's favor. There are others in Mikal's favor of course.

Those two are not finished products. Oubre has improved in every season so far, there's a chance he becomes a more efficient player, better defender. Mikal will certainly continue to improve in areas not his strength right now as well.


Oubre not good at creating his own shot. Best at getting open 3s or fast break dunks. Anything else usually results in a bad shot or turnover, often driving into several defenders.

That's BS. GTFO with your constant anti-Oubre nonsense.

Oubre:
51.9 eFG% on 2.8 pull ups per game
45.8 FG% and 6.0 TOV% on 6.1 drives per game

Mikal:
47.1 eFG% on 0.7 pull ups per game
39.6 FG% and 9.0 TOV% on 2.9 drives per game


I didn't say MIkal was good at creating his own shot, just that Oubre wasn't good at it, and where the hell did I mention pull ups?

And OK, maybe the drives into multiple defenders are not classified as a turnover but it gets blocked or is a terrible shot that has no chance. Again, I didn't say pull up...I was talking about driving to the rim against defenders. Look at how they finish at the rim. Huge difference there. And that's including all of Oubre's wide open fast break dunks people feed him.

Ridiculous cherry picked stats based on nothing I said.

I know you're obviously not too fond of Bridges, having seen you compare him to Wesley Johnson.
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Re: Who is the second most important piece of our core? 

Post#57 » by Qwigglez » Sun Sep 13, 2020 3:12 am

I think the point some are making in comparing Oubre to Bridges is that Oubre is typically our 2nd option on offense, so he commands more gravity. Bridges is typically last, so his drives to the basket are usually open drives and very opportunistic after his defender leaves him open or sags off him or he typically has the worse defender on him too. Oubre's shot are far more difficult and it's easy to say he should just not take those shots, but a lot of times the clock is ticking down or the offensive play broke down, someone has to take the shot. Bridges typically camps the corner 3, he might drive a bit and even met with a little resistance typically passes the ball. I think once Bridges becomes a more assertive player he'll see a different style of defense being played on him.
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Re: Who is the second most important piece of our core? 

Post#58 » by sunsbg » Sun Sep 13, 2020 5:15 am

^^Exactly

Would be cool to see a 1on1 game between the two as Mikal almost never tries to create his shot in real games. I would take Oubre in 1on1 setting. In summary, they play so differently and a coach should be happy to have both on the team in certain situations.
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Re: Who is the second most important piece of our core? 

Post#59 » by darmani » Sun Sep 13, 2020 6:01 am

bwgood77 wrote:
darmani wrote:
bwgood77 wrote:
Oubre not good at creating his own shot. Best at getting open 3s or fast break dunks. Anything else usually results in a bad shot or turnover, often driving into several defenders.

That's BS. GTFO with your constant anti-Oubre nonsense.

Oubre:
51.9 eFG% on 2.8 pull ups per game
45.8 FG% and 6.0 TOV% on 6.1 drives per game

Mikal:
47.1 eFG% on 0.7 pull ups per game
39.6 FG% and 9.0 TOV% on 2.9 drives per game


I didn't say MIkal was good at creating his own shot, just that Oubre wasn't good at it, and where the hell did I mention pull ups?

And OK, maybe the drives into multiple defenders are not classified as a turnover but it gets blocked or is a terrible shot that has no chance. Again, I didn't say pull up...I was talking about driving to the rim against defenders. Look at how they finish at the rim. Huge difference there. And that's including all of Oubre's wide open fast break dunks people feed him.

Ridiculous cherry picked stats based on nothing I said.

I know you're obviously not too fond of Bridges, having seen you compare him to Wesley Johnson.

LOL

These pull-up shooting numbers literally show that Oubre is efficient when he's creating his own shot and he doesn't take these shots as often as Oubre's detractors claim he does.

Oubre's 45.8 FG% on drives (similar to players like Tatum 46.6% or Siakam 44.2%) is significantly higher than Mikal's 39.6% despite the fact that he drives to the basket twice as often.

Oubre had only 20 turnovers on 336 drives, Mikal had 19 turnovers on 211 drives. Oubre last season had 1 turnover on drives per 95 minutes of playing time but from reading your posts you would think it happened on every other possession.

It's completely ridiculous to mention "Oubre's wide open fast break dunks people feed him" when Mikal made maybe 10 unassisted baskets at the rim whole season.
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Re: Who is the second most important piece of our core? 

Post#60 » by bwgood77 » Sun Sep 13, 2020 3:08 pm

darmani wrote:
bwgood77 wrote:
darmani wrote:That's BS. GTFO with your constant anti-Oubre nonsense.

Oubre:
51.9 eFG% on 2.8 pull ups per game
45.8 FG% and 6.0 TOV% on 6.1 drives per game

Mikal:
47.1 eFG% on 0.7 pull ups per game
39.6 FG% and 9.0 TOV% on 2.9 drives per game


I didn't say MIkal was good at creating his own shot, just that Oubre wasn't good at it, and where the hell did I mention pull ups?

And OK, maybe the drives into multiple defenders are not classified as a turnover but it gets blocked or is a terrible shot that has no chance. Again, I didn't say pull up...I was talking about driving to the rim against defenders. Look at how they finish at the rim. Huge difference there. And that's including all of Oubre's wide open fast break dunks people feed him.

Ridiculous cherry picked stats based on nothing I said.

I know you're obviously not too fond of Bridges, having seen you compare him to Wesley Johnson.

LOL

These pull-up shooting numbers literally show that Oubre is efficient when he's creating his own shot and he doesn't take these shots as often as Oubre's detractors claim he does.

Oubre's 45.8 FG% on drives (similar to players like Tatum 46.6% or Siakam 44.2%) is significantly higher than Mikal's 39.6% despite the fact that he drives to the basket twice as often.

Oubre had only 20 turnovers on 336 drives, Mikal had 19 turnovers on 211 drives. Oubre last season had 1 turnover on drives per 95 minutes of playing time but from reading your posts you would think it happened on every other possession.

It's completely ridiculous to mention "Oubre's wide open fast break dunks people feed him" when Mikal made maybe 10 unassisted baskets at the rim whole season.


I don't care what you are trying to literally show about pull ups. I never mentioned pull ups. If you are saying he doesn't do that a lot, then whoever was claiming he was good at creating his own shot I guess was wrong.

And by the way, an eFG% of 51.9% is below the league avg of 52.9%.

That drive % isn't impressive, though. I do see that he drives a lot. He's just not good at it. He ranks 11th in drive FG% on the team. Now Booker's good at it, at 51.4%, so you can see he does it a lot. No one else on our team other than Oubre does it much, as you have to be crafty to be efficient at a fairly high %, like Booker.

I am not sure what you are trying to argue. I'm not arguing that Bridges is good at creating his own shot. I'm just saying that Oubre may "create his own shot" or try to, as people claim, but he's not efficient.

Players and thus the whole team are going to be far more efficient if they play within the team concept and system and work off each other, assist each other, etc.

I know you are trying to cherry pick different categories to favorably compare Oubre's FG% to Bridges.

The point is, Bridges overall is FAR FAR more efficient. Just look at the total, not some cherry picked #s trying to make someone look good.

Bridges TS% 62%, Oubre's TS% 56%, League avg 56.5%

Or if you want to go by eFG%, Bridges 58.3%, Oubre 51.7%, League avg 52.9%

Oubre is a positive presence, good energy guy, good locker room presence, likable guy our best lineups included him, though Cam replacing him in that lineup in the bubble was solid too...not quite AS impressive via pt differential, but still very impressive despite Ayton's subpar play.

He may score a lot of points, but does so at below avg league efficiency. So if everyone on our team scored at his rate, Now, being slightly below avg in efficiency on a bad team might look good, but if we want to be an above average or good team, we need to be more efficient.

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