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Who is the second most important piece of our core?

Moderators: bwgood77, Qwigglez, lilfishi22, Kerrsed

Second most important player in our young core

Ayton
34
62%
Bridges
21
38%
 
Total votes: 55

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Re: Who is the second most important piece of our core? 

Post#61 » by sunsbg » Sun Sep 13, 2020 4:37 pm

bwgood77 wrote:
darmani wrote:
bwgood77 wrote:
I didn't say MIkal was good at creating his own shot, just that Oubre wasn't good at it, and where the hell did I mention pull ups?

And OK, maybe the drives into multiple defenders are not classified as a turnover but it gets blocked or is a terrible shot that has no chance. Again, I didn't say pull up...I was talking about driving to the rim against defenders. Look at how they finish at the rim. Huge difference there. And that's including all of Oubre's wide open fast break dunks people feed him.

Ridiculous cherry picked stats based on nothing I said.

I know you're obviously not too fond of Bridges, having seen you compare him to Wesley Johnson.

LOL

These pull-up shooting numbers literally show that Oubre is efficient when he's creating his own shot and he doesn't take these shots as often as Oubre's detractors claim he does.

Oubre's 45.8 FG% on drives (similar to players like Tatum 46.6% or Siakam 44.2%) is significantly higher than Mikal's 39.6% despite the fact that he drives to the basket twice as often.

Oubre had only 20 turnovers on 336 drives, Mikal had 19 turnovers on 211 drives. Oubre last season had 1 turnover on drives per 95 minutes of playing time but from reading your posts you would think it happened on every other possession.

It's completely ridiculous to mention "Oubre's wide open fast break dunks people feed him" when Mikal made maybe 10 unassisted baskets at the rim whole season.


I don't care what you are trying to literally show about pull ups. I never mentioned pull ups. If you are saying he doesn't do that a lot, then whoever was claiming he was good at creating his own shot I guess was wrong.

And by the way, an eFG% of 51.9% is below the league avg of 52.9%.

That drive % isn't impressive, though. I do see that he drives a lot. He's just not good at it. He ranks 11th in drive FG% on the team. Now Booker's good at it, at 51.4%, so you can see he does it a lot. No one else on our team other than Oubre does it much, as you have to be crafty to be efficient at a fairly high %, like Booker.

I am not sure what you are trying to argue. I'm not arguing that Bridges is good at creating his own shot. I'm just saying that Oubre may "create his own shot" or try to, as people claim, but he's not efficient.

Players and thus the whole team are going to be far more efficient if they play within the team concept and system and work off each other, assist each other, etc.

I know you are trying to cherry pick different categories to favorably compare Oubre's FG% to Bridges.

The point is, Bridges overall is FAR FAR more efficient. Just look at the total, not some cherry picked #s trying to make someone look good.

Bridges TS% 62%, Oubre's TS% 56%, League avg 56.5%

Or if you want to go by eFG%, Bridges 58.3%, Oubre 51.7%, League avg 52.9%

Oubre is a positive presence, good energy guy, good locker room presence, likable guy our best lineups included him, though Cam replacing him in that lineup in the bubble was solid too...not quite AS impressive via pt differential, but still very impressive despite Ayton's subpar play.

He may score a lot of points, but does so at below avg league efficiency. So if everyone on our team scored at his rate, Now, being slightly below avg in efficiency on a bad team might look good, but if we want to be an above average or good team, we need to be more efficient.


If he's cherry-picking you are not doing any better. Leader at TS% - Mitchell Robinson. I guess he's much better than Luka Doncic offensively. One more confirmation stats are really flawed when taken out of context.

If Oubre is bad at creating his own shot based on the stats brought by darmani, than what does it mean for Mikal who has worse numbers ? Is he terrible ? On top of previous page you say if he's utilized differently, he'll be good at it, which is obviously not backed up by those stats. Your opinion on this debate looks heavily biased in Mikal's favor.
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Re: Who is the second most important piece of our core? 

Post#62 » by bwgood77 » Sun Sep 13, 2020 5:45 pm

Probably not worth responding, but comparing efficiency for wings is a little different than Cs, particularly ones that don't shoot from outside.
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Re: Who is the second most important piece of our core? 

Post#63 » by darmani » Sun Sep 13, 2020 5:58 pm

bwgood77 wrote:
darmani wrote:
bwgood77 wrote:
I didn't say MIkal was good at creating his own shot, just that Oubre wasn't good at it, and where the hell did I mention pull ups?

And OK, maybe the drives into multiple defenders are not classified as a turnover but it gets blocked or is a terrible shot that has no chance. Again, I didn't say pull up...I was talking about driving to the rim against defenders. Look at how they finish at the rim. Huge difference there. And that's including all of Oubre's wide open fast break dunks people feed him.

Ridiculous cherry picked stats based on nothing I said.

I know you're obviously not too fond of Bridges, having seen you compare him to Wesley Johnson.

LOL

These pull-up shooting numbers literally show that Oubre is efficient when he's creating his own shot and he doesn't take these shots as often as Oubre's detractors claim he does.

Oubre's 45.8 FG% on drives (similar to players like Tatum 46.6% or Siakam 44.2%) is significantly higher than Mikal's 39.6% despite the fact that he drives to the basket twice as often.

Oubre had only 20 turnovers on 336 drives, Mikal had 19 turnovers on 211 drives. Oubre last season had 1 turnover on drives per 95 minutes of playing time but from reading your posts you would think it happened on every other possession.

It's completely ridiculous to mention "Oubre's wide open fast break dunks people feed him" when Mikal made maybe 10 unassisted baskets at the rim whole season.


I don't care what you are trying to literally show about pull ups. I never mentioned pull ups. If you are saying he doesn't do that a lot, then whoever was claiming he was good at creating his own shot I guess was wrong.

And by the way, an eFG% of 51.9% is below the league avg of 52.9%.

That drive % isn't impressive, though. I do see that he drives a lot. He's just not good at it. He ranks 11th in drive FG% on the team. Now Booker's good at it, at 51.4%, so you can see he does it a lot. No one else on our team other than Oubre does it much, as you have to be crafty to be efficient at a fairly high %, like Booker.

I am not sure what you are trying to argue. I'm not arguing that Bridges is good at creating his own shot. I'm just saying that Oubre may "create his own shot" or try to, as people claim, but he's not efficient.

Players and thus the whole team are going to be far more efficient if they play within the team concept and system and work off each other, assist each other, etc.

I know you are trying to cherry pick different categories to favorably compare Oubre's FG% to Bridges.

The point is, Bridges overall is FAR FAR more efficient. Just look at the total, not some cherry picked #s trying to make someone look good.

Bridges TS% 62%, Oubre's TS% 56%, League avg 56.5%

Or if you want to go by eFG%, Bridges 58.3%, Oubre 51.7%, League avg 52.9%

Oubre is a positive presence, good energy guy, good locker room presence, likable guy our best lineups included him, though Cam replacing him in that lineup in the bubble was solid too...not quite AS impressive via pt differential, but still very impressive despite Ayton's subpar play.

He may score a lot of points, but does so at below avg league efficiency. So if everyone on our team scored at his rate, Now, being slightly below avg in efficiency on a bad team might look good, but if we want to be an above average or good team, we need to be more efficient.

My God, you are dense. Do you understand what pull-up shooting is? It IS creating your own shot. 52.9% is league average eFG% on all shots. On pull-ups it's much, MUCH lower. In eFG% on pull ups Oubre ranks 10th in the league out of 149 players with more than 100 pull up FGAs.

Oubre scores 0.92 PPP (same as Booker) as a pick and roll ball handler in 153 possessions. That puts him in the 68th percentile in the NBA and above players like Warren, Ingram, Hield, LaVine, Dinwiddie, Russell, Fox, Murray, Morant, Butler, VanVleet, Jrue and Rubio. Mikal Bridges is at 0.83 PPP in a pathetic 30 possessions.

And give me a break about Mikal's TS% and eFG%. Dude takes 6 shots per game and made 43 unassisted baskets whole year...
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Re: Who is the second most important piece of our core? 

Post#64 » by sunsbg » Sun Sep 13, 2020 6:11 pm

bwgood77 wrote:Probably not worth responding, but comparing efficiency for wings is a little different than Cs, particularly ones that don't shoot from outside.


Wasn't you who first brought a wing(Lillard) and a C(Nurkic) just a few posts above ? Mine was just an extreme example to stress stats don't tell the full story. Pointed out by many already Mikal is being spoon fed right now, basically a finisher who rarely drives to the basket with the ball in his hands. You don't know what his efficiency numbers will look in a different role. I remember quite a few plays when he was blocked on drives similarly to Oubre (by Whiteside twice vs Blazers), missed dunks (vs Mavs).

I'm not interested in discussing basketball in numbers so stopping here as well.
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Re: Who is the second most important piece of our core? 

Post#65 » by bwgood77 » Sun Sep 13, 2020 6:59 pm

darmani wrote:Oubre scores 0.92 PPP (same as Booker) as a pick and roll ball handler in 153 possessions. That puts him in the 68th percentile in the NBA and above players like Warren, Ingram, Hield, LaVine, Dinwiddie, Russell, Fox, Murray, Morant, Butler, VanVleet, Jrue and Rubio. Mikal Bridges is at 0.83 PPP in a pathetic 30 possessions.

And give me a break about Mikal's TS% and eFG%. Dude takes 6 shots per game and made 43 unassisted baskets whole year...


I'll ignore the cheap personal attack this time, and repeating with the cherry picking. I never mentioned playing the pick and roll so not sure where that argumentn is coming from...and these constantly moving goal posts.

I simply mentioned that trying to create your own shot is less efficient than playing within the offense....and that the eFG% he has doing that is less than league avg efficiency, yes, of ALL shots, so it's not a good idea. If someone is a lot better than league avg efficiency at pulling up, fine, I guess it's worth doing, but there are only a handful of players that are.
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Re: Who is the second most important piece of our core? 

Post#66 » by bwgood77 » Sun Sep 13, 2020 7:02 pm

sunsbg wrote:
bwgood77 wrote:Probably not worth responding, but comparing efficiency for wings is a little different than Cs, particularly ones that don't shoot from outside.


Wasn't you who first brought a wing(Lillard) and a C(Nurkic) just a few posts above ? Mine was just an extreme example to stress stats don't tell the full story. Pointed out by many already Mikal is being spoon fed right now, basically a finisher who rarely drives to the basket with the ball in his hands. You don't know what his efficiency numbers will look in a different role. I remember quite a few plays when he was blocked on drives similarly to Oubre (by Whiteside twice vs Blazers), missed dunks (vs Mavs).

I'm not interested in discussing basketball in numbers so stopping here as well.


Yeah, my point was not to compare their FG%, which is what I'm saying again now.
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Re: Who is the second most important piece of our core? 

Post#67 » by darmani » Sun Sep 13, 2020 8:05 pm

bwgood77 wrote:
darmani wrote:Oubre scores 0.92 PPP (same as Booker) as a pick and roll ball handler in 153 possessions. That puts him in the 68th percentile in the NBA and above players like Warren, Ingram, Hield, LaVine, Dinwiddie, Russell, Fox, Murray, Morant, Butler, VanVleet, Jrue and Rubio. Mikal Bridges is at 0.83 PPP in a pathetic 30 possessions.

And give me a break about Mikal's TS% and eFG%. Dude takes 6 shots per game and made 43 unassisted baskets whole year...


I'll ignore the cheap personal attack this time, and repeating with the cherry picking. I never mentioned playing the pick and roll so not sure where that argumentn is coming from...and these constantly moving goal posts.

I simply mentioned that trying to create your own shot is less efficient than playing within the offense....and that the eFG% he has doing that is less than league avg efficiency, yes, of ALL shots, so it's not a good idea. If someone is a lot better than league avg efficiency at pulling up, fine, I guess it's worth doing, but there are only a handful of players that are.

Oh the merciful mod. Thank you for your forgiveness.

Who's moving the goal posts? Scoring on pull up jump shots IS creating your own shot. Scoring as a pick and roll ball handler IS creating your own shot. Oubre IS efficient at crating his own shot. EOT.

What exactly does it mean "playing within the offense"? A team full of players with Mikal's offensive skill set would struggle to score 70 points, no matter how high his eFG% on 6 FGA per game is. You can't build a team just with role players who rely on others to create their offense. Your argument that a player with MIkal's shot profile is more valuable on offense than someone like Oubre is dumb as ****. Offensive self-creation is the most important skill in basketball and Oubre is above average at it.
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Re: Who is the second most important piece of our core? 

Post#68 » by Saberestar » Sun Sep 13, 2020 9:10 pm

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Re: Who is the second most important piece of our core? 

Post#69 » by Qwigglez » Mon Sep 14, 2020 7:17 am

I don't think advanced stats tell the entire story. Bridges again has the easiest spoon-fed shots in the world. He has Rubio, Booker, and Ayton who can feed him. Even watching any of Bridges highlights most of his shots are wide open. Watch Oubre's highlights and you'll see him make jumpers with a defender all over him, he'll make a higher degree of difficult shots. This will be especially important come playoff time. A good example to me is looking at Kris Middleton who has a similar game style to Mikal Bridges. Both players have 62% TS, yet in the playoffs this year KM had under a 51% TS. I see it as Middleton can't maintain the same level of efficiency because the opposing teams make it more challenging for system players like Middleton to get in a groove. I could see Bridges having a similar issue.

I'm really not trying to knock Bridges either, but I think there is a reason he only takes 6.6 shots per game. He's a passive player and he plays to what he knows he's good at. I'm glad to have both Oubre and Bridges on the team, and we can even have this argument. A lot better than arguing about Josh Jackson and Dragan Bender and who's the more important piece.
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Re: Who is the second most important piece of our core? 

Post#70 » by cberry78 » Mon Sep 14, 2020 8:04 am

Qwigglez wrote:I don't think advanced stats tell the entire story. Bridges again has the easiest spoon-fed shots in the world. He has Rubio, Booker, and Ayton who can feed him. Even watching any of Bridges highlights most of his shots are wide open. Watch Oubre's highlights and you'll see him make jumpers with a defender all over him, he'll make a higher degree of difficult shots. This will be especially important come playoff time. A good example to me is looking at Kris Middleton who has a similar game style to Mikal Bridges. Both players have 62% TS, yet in the playoffs this year KM had under a 51% TS. I see it as Middleton can't maintain the same level of efficiency because the opposing teams make it more challenging for system players like Middleton to get in a groove. I could see Bridges having a similar issue.

I'm really not trying to knock Bridges either, but I think there is a reason he only takes 6.6 shots per game. He's a passive player and he plays to what he knows he's good at. I'm glad to have both Oubre and Bridges on the team, and we can even have this argument. A lot better than arguing about Josh Jackson and Dragan Bender and who's the more important piece.

The issue with Middleton is that he was essentially the 2nd option for the Bucks the entire playoffs, and he's just not good enough to be that player. Same goes for Bridges - he's not good enough to be the second option on a team, especially in the playoffs - he would run into the same issues that Middleton did. As a 3rd or 4th offensive option on a team, both players are perfect for it.

Bridges is perfectly set up to be that 3rd or 4th option (on offense) on the Suns behind DB, DA, and possibly KOJr. He'll have his games where he gets hot and will run up 30-40 points in a night, but to expect him to be able to put up 20+ a night is too much to ask of him, it's not his game.
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Re: Who is the second most important piece of our core? 

Post#71 » by Qwigglez » Mon Sep 14, 2020 9:11 am

^Precisely. I don't see Bridges being disgruntled because he hasn't been given an opportunity to showcase his offensive talents. I think he has been given the opportunity and he's doing what he does best. Though I do hope he continues to be more aggressive like he did in the bubble where he averaged almost 10 shots a game, shooting 48% FG, 40% 3PT, and averaging 13 points a game. I don't expect Oubre to hinder Bridges development at all.
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Re: Who is the second most important piece of our core? 

Post#72 » by bwgood77 » Tue Sep 15, 2020 4:22 am

Qwigglez wrote:I don't think advanced stats tell the entire story. Bridges again has the easiest spoon-fed shots in the world. He has Rubio, Booker, and Ayton who can feed him. Even watching any of Bridges highlights most of his shots are wide open. Watch Oubre's highlights and you'll see him make jumpers with a defender all over him, he'll make a higher degree of difficult shots. This will be especially important come playoff time. A good example to me is looking at Kris Middleton who has a similar game style to Mikal Bridges. Both players have 62% TS, yet in the playoffs this year KM had under a 51% TS. I see it as Middleton can't maintain the same level of efficiency because the opposing teams make it more challenging for system players like Middleton to get in a groove. I could see Bridges having a similar issue.

I'm really not trying to knock Bridges either, but I think there is a reason he only takes 6.6 shots per game. He's a passive player and he plays to what he knows he's good at. I'm glad to have both Oubre and Bridges on the team, and we can even have this argument. A lot better than arguing about Josh Jackson and Dragan Bender and who's the more important piece.


Bridges will shoot when he gets it and is open or gets a cut. It doesn't matter to me if he can create his own shot. He plays within the offense, and takes what it gives him. If he gets more touches, like he did in the bubble warm up games, he will score more.

I'm simply just a fan of an offense like D'Antoni's, or Cotton's, where the ball moves a lot and players get great shots. Not a bunch of iso-ing. Bridges would have been great in the SSOL less offense, and would have knocked down a lot of shots and provided great defense...maybe like an amplified Raja with shades of Marion. Oubre wouldn't have worked in an offense like that. Booker could have probably run it...but he may have done it a little more like KJ in the Cotton offense than Nash in the D'Antoni one.
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Re: Who is the second most important piece of our core? 

Post#73 » by bwgood77 » Tue Sep 15, 2020 4:24 am

cberry78 wrote:
Qwigglez wrote:I don't think advanced stats tell the entire story. Bridges again has the easiest spoon-fed shots in the world. He has Rubio, Booker, and Ayton who can feed him. Even watching any of Bridges highlights most of his shots are wide open. Watch Oubre's highlights and you'll see him make jumpers with a defender all over him, he'll make a higher degree of difficult shots. This will be especially important come playoff time. A good example to me is looking at Kris Middleton who has a similar game style to Mikal Bridges. Both players have 62% TS, yet in the playoffs this year KM had under a 51% TS. I see it as Middleton can't maintain the same level of efficiency because the opposing teams make it more challenging for system players like Middleton to get in a groove. I could see Bridges having a similar issue.

I'm really not trying to knock Bridges either, but I think there is a reason he only takes 6.6 shots per game. He's a passive player and he plays to what he knows he's good at. I'm glad to have both Oubre and Bridges on the team, and we can even have this argument. A lot better than arguing about Josh Jackson and Dragan Bender and who's the more important piece.

The issue with Middleton is that he was essentially the 2nd option for the Bucks the entire playoffs, and he's just not good enough to be that player. Same goes for Bridges - he's not good enough to be the second option on a team, especially in the playoffs - he would run into the same issues that Middleton did. As a 3rd or 4th offensive option on a team, both players are perfect for it.

Bridges is perfectly set up to be that 3rd or 4th option (on offense) on the Suns behind DB, DA, and possibly KOJr. He'll have his games where he gets hot and will run up 30-40 points in a night, but to expect him to be able to put up 20+ a night is too much to ask of him, it's not his game.


If you are going to play a lot of iso ball, I guess you need 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th options. You never heard that in the D'Antoni offense...it was a team effort, something Monty is trying to do with his .5 offense....shoot or pass within that time. Oubre doesn't always do that and isn't one of the primary ball handlers.
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Re: Who is the second most important piece of our core? 

Post#74 » by bwgood77 » Tue Sep 15, 2020 4:26 am

I'm not even sure why Oubre got brought up anyway, in post #48. This thread isn't even about him, but is about the second most important piece of our core, which would have been Rubio right now if you consider him part of the core, and at some point should be Ayton (should be now).
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Re: Who is the second most important piece of our core? 

Post#75 » by sunsbg » Tue Sep 15, 2020 6:12 am

bwgood77 wrote:I'm not even sure why Oubre got brought up anyway, in post #48. This thread isn't even about him, but is about the second most important piece of our core, which would have been Rubio right now if you consider him part of the core, and at some point should be Ayton (should be now).


I don't even know why you didn't stick to the thread topic and had to throw cheap shots at Oubre like many times before, picturing him as an energy/highlights player only. A lie repeated 100 times becomes a truth. Accusing darmani in moving the goal posts while you were the one bringing up efficiency stats, which had nothing to do with who is the better creator was also weak.

And I can easily see Oubre flourish in D'Antoni offense finishing fast-breaks, shooting open 3s and getting easy baskets in general fed by Nash. It's not like Marion was a much better passer.
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Re: Who is the second most important piece of our core? 

Post#76 » by cberry78 » Tue Sep 15, 2020 7:30 am

bwgood77 wrote:
cberry78 wrote:
Qwigglez wrote:I don't think advanced stats tell the entire story. Bridges again has the easiest spoon-fed shots in the world. He has Rubio, Booker, and Ayton who can feed him. Even watching any of Bridges highlights most of his shots are wide open. Watch Oubre's highlights and you'll see him make jumpers with a defender all over him, he'll make a higher degree of difficult shots. This will be especially important come playoff time. A good example to me is looking at Kris Middleton who has a similar game style to Mikal Bridges. Both players have 62% TS, yet in the playoffs this year KM had under a 51% TS. I see it as Middleton can't maintain the same level of efficiency because the opposing teams make it more challenging for system players like Middleton to get in a groove. I could see Bridges having a similar issue.

I'm really not trying to knock Bridges either, but I think there is a reason he only takes 6.6 shots per game. He's a passive player and he plays to what he knows he's good at. I'm glad to have both Oubre and Bridges on the team, and we can even have this argument. A lot better than arguing about Josh Jackson and Dragan Bender and who's the more important piece.

The issue with Middleton is that he was essentially the 2nd option for the Bucks the entire playoffs, and he's just not good enough to be that player. Same goes for Bridges - he's not good enough to be the second option on a team, especially in the playoffs - he would run into the same issues that Middleton did. As a 3rd or 4th offensive option on a team, both players are perfect for it.

Bridges is perfectly set up to be that 3rd or 4th option (on offense) on the Suns behind DB, DA, and possibly KOJr. He'll have his games where he gets hot and will run up 30-40 points in a night, but to expect him to be able to put up 20+ a night is too much to ask of him, it's not his game.


If you are going to play a lot of iso ball, I guess you need 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th options. You never heard that in the D'Antoni offense...it was a team effort, something Monty is trying to do with his .5 offense....shoot or pass within that time. Oubre doesn't always do that and isn't one of the primary ball handlers.

A 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th option is just an unofficial, unrecognized hierarchy of how the game flows through ball movement.

Even in this .5 offense, you have players that you prefer the offense to go through. DB is this teams leader and one of the most efficient scorers in the league, which is part of the reason why he leads the team in scoring, and is the teams defacto #1 option. DA should be the teams #2 option just based on his size/athleticism/etc, and hopefully, he'll reach that plateau, if not more, soon. After them you have your #3 option, and in the .5 offense, that's the second pass after the "preferred" shot in the offense - that's going to fall on one of KO, Mikal, or Cam. Mikal is not sure enough of his shot (at this point), and Cam is to "young" (by NBA vet standards)....that leaves KO as the, probable, #3 option....with RR and DB the main facilitators of the offensive flow.
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Re: Who is the second most important piece of our core? 

Post#77 » by Qwigglez » Tue Sep 15, 2020 7:58 am

bwgood77 wrote:
Qwigglez wrote:I don't think advanced stats tell the entire story. Bridges again has the easiest spoon-fed shots in the world. He has Rubio, Booker, and Ayton who can feed him. Even watching any of Bridges highlights most of his shots are wide open. Watch Oubre's highlights and you'll see him make jumpers with a defender all over him, he'll make a higher degree of difficult shots. This will be especially important come playoff time. A good example to me is looking at Kris Middleton who has a similar game style to Mikal Bridges. Both players have 62% TS, yet in the playoffs this year KM had under a 51% TS. I see it as Middleton can't maintain the same level of efficiency because the opposing teams make it more challenging for system players like Middleton to get in a groove. I could see Bridges having a similar issue.

I'm really not trying to knock Bridges either, but I think there is a reason he only takes 6.6 shots per game. He's a passive player and he plays to what he knows he's good at. I'm glad to have both Oubre and Bridges on the team, and we can even have this argument. A lot better than arguing about Josh Jackson and Dragan Bender and who's the more important piece.


Bridges will shoot when he gets it and is open or gets a cut. It doesn't matter to me if he can create his own shot. He plays within the offense, and takes what it gives him. If he gets more touches, like he did in the bubble warm up games, he will score more.

I'm simply just a fan of an offense like D'Antoni's, or Cotton's, where the ball moves a lot and players get great shots. Not a bunch of iso-ing. Bridges would have been great in the SSOL less offense, and would have knocked down a lot of shots and provided great defense...maybe like an amplified Raja with shades of Marion. Oubre wouldn't have worked in an offense like that. Booker could have probably run it...but he may have done it a little more like KJ in the Cotton offense than Nash in the D'Antoni one.


I'm a fan of team ball too, and I'm liking the offense that Monty is implementing to the team. But the reason I brought up Middleton is because he plays team ball, but in the playoffs you have to be able to deviate from the game plan and utilize some creativity. I think both Middleton and Bridges lack that ability and that would ultimately lead to a loss. Reminds me of how effective the SSOL teams were yet we always got dismantled by the Spurs in the playoffs. Why? Because Popavich made Nash into a shooter, and made his players stay home on Suns shooters. We didn't have enough guys who could create for themselves. Finally in 2010 we killed the Spurs because the Suns had multiple guys who were effective at creating opportunities for themselves and we didn't solely rely on Nash.

Also, I'm not sure how you can say Oubre wouldn't have worked in an offense like that. Our best 3-man lineup is Rubio, Oubre, Bridges. Rubio-Oubre combo has a better net rating than Rubio-Bridges (though it is close). I think Oubre plays well when he has someone else or two he can feed off of. Same with Bridges, so again I'm not knocking Bridges. Point I'm making is Oubre isn't nearly as bad as you seem to be making him out to be. Additionally, Oubre usage % is remarkably close to that of Shawn Marion in 2004-06 season. I'd argue that Oubre has more shades of Marion than Bridges does.
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Re: Who is the second most important piece of our core? 

Post#78 » by Qwigglez » Tue Sep 15, 2020 8:01 am

As for the original question, I had previously already answered I believe 2nd most important piece is Ricky Rubio. Ayton hopefully surpasses that this upcoming season. As for 4th, I'd probably put both Bridges/Oubre as equals, to me they both represent different things in our lineups. They work opposites and because of that they balance out the starting five, yin to the yang, they compliment each other well.
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Re: Who is the second most important piece of our core? 

Post#79 » by bwgood77 » Tue Sep 15, 2020 12:32 pm

sunsbg wrote:
bwgood77 wrote:I'm not even sure why Oubre got brought up anyway, in post #48. This thread isn't even about him, but is about the second most important piece of our core, which would have been Rubio right now if you consider him part of the core, and at some point should be Ayton (should be now).


I don't even know why you didn't stick to the thread topic and had to throw cheap shots at Oubre like many times before, picturing him as an energy/highlights player only. A lie repeated 100 times becomes a truth. Accusing darmani in moving the goal posts while you were the one bringing up efficiency stats, which had nothing to do with who is the better creator was also weak.

And I can easily see Oubre flourish in D'Antoni offense finishing fast-breaks, shooting open 3s and getting easy baskets in general fed by Nash. It's not like Marion was a much better passer.


I'm not throwing cheap shots, just giving my opinion. Oubre did play a lot better this past year, exceeding my expectations..in his poll I voted "Exceeded my expectations". He did play within the offense at times, he did energize the team, we did play better with him at PF when we inserted Bridges into the starting lineup at SF instead of Saric at PF. Oubre can be exciting to watch. I do think he is probably served better as a 6th man, if Cam in the starting lineup continues to be close to as good as the one with Oubre, but I'd also make that my first substitution since both lineups work well.

My point about you bringing up creating his own shot was that it's not the style of play that is efficient overall, even if he does rank well in the league of those who do it a lot. It's still a less efficient way to score that league avg of all shots. If Oubre was going to sign a contract at his current value or one a little less, I think he'd be worth keeping, but his play shouldn't command more money than he currently makes, and certainly not nearly as much as has been mentioned on some podcasts. I've heard as much as $24 million a year.

I bring up energy a lot because I think it's a huge positive, and I think the rest of his play is avg efficiency scoring, below avg passing, and slightly above avg defending, which is why I think if he gets near $20 million a year he's not worth it.
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Re: Who is the second most important piece of our core? 

Post#80 » by bwgood77 » Tue Sep 15, 2020 12:39 pm

Qwigglez wrote:
bwgood77 wrote:
Qwigglez wrote:I don't think advanced stats tell the entire story. Bridges again has the easiest spoon-fed shots in the world. He has Rubio, Booker, and Ayton who can feed him. Even watching any of Bridges highlights most of his shots are wide open. Watch Oubre's highlights and you'll see him make jumpers with a defender all over him, he'll make a higher degree of difficult shots. This will be especially important come playoff time. A good example to me is looking at Kris Middleton who has a similar game style to Mikal Bridges. Both players have 62% TS, yet in the playoffs this year KM had under a 51% TS. I see it as Middleton can't maintain the same level of efficiency because the opposing teams make it more challenging for system players like Middleton to get in a groove. I could see Bridges having a similar issue.

I'm really not trying to knock Bridges either, but I think there is a reason he only takes 6.6 shots per game. He's a passive player and he plays to what he knows he's good at. I'm glad to have both Oubre and Bridges on the team, and we can even have this argument. A lot better than arguing about Josh Jackson and Dragan Bender and who's the more important piece.


Bridges will shoot when he gets it and is open or gets a cut. It doesn't matter to me if he can create his own shot. He plays within the offense, and takes what it gives him. If he gets more touches, like he did in the bubble warm up games, he will score more.

I'm simply just a fan of an offense like D'Antoni's, or Cotton's, where the ball moves a lot and players get great shots. Not a bunch of iso-ing. Bridges would have been great in the SSOL less offense, and would have knocked down a lot of shots and provided great defense...maybe like an amplified Raja with shades of Marion. Oubre wouldn't have worked in an offense like that. Booker could have probably run it...but he may have done it a little more like KJ in the Cotton offense than Nash in the D'Antoni one.


I'm a fan of team ball too, and I'm liking the offense that Monty is implementing to the team. But the reason I brought up Middleton is because he plays team ball, but in the playoffs you have to be able to deviate from the game plan and utilize some creativity. I think both Middleton and Bridges lack that ability and that would ultimately lead to a loss. Reminds me of how effective the SSOL teams were yet we always got dismantled by the Spurs in the playoffs. Why? Because Popavich made Nash into a shooter, and made his players stay home on Suns shooters. We didn't have enough guys who could create for themselves. Finally in 2010 we killed the Spurs because the Suns had multiple guys who were effective at creating opportunities for themselves and we didn't solely rely on Nash.

Also, I'm not sure how you can say Oubre wouldn't have worked in an offense like that. Our best 3-man lineup is Rubio, Oubre, Bridges. Rubio-Oubre combo has a better net rating than Rubio-Bridges (though it is close). I think Oubre plays well when he has someone else or two he can feed off of. Same with Bridges, so again I'm not knocking Bridges. Point I'm making is Oubre isn't nearly as bad as you seem to be making him out to be. Additionally, Oubre usage % is remarkably close to that of Shawn Marion in 2004-06 season. I'd argue that Oubre has more shades of Marion than Bridges does.


The reasons I mention Marion (when I said Bridges had shades of him combined with Raja (If I had to compare him to people on that team) it was because they both had superb defense, and they mostly just spread the floor and shot it when they got the ball...and maybe occasionally drive. Otherwise Marion's play was different than anyone except maybe Ayton, because it came to rebounding...offensive rebounding and putbacks and defensive rebounding.

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