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Deandre Ayton year 4, the next step

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Re: Deandre Ayton year 3, the next step 

Post#1121 » by suns12345 » Thu Jul 22, 2021 10:31 pm

darealjuice wrote:No one wants Ayton to abandon what he's doing well to try playing point guard or pretending to be Giannis. The point is that he needs to expand his offensive game beyond spoon feeding and offensive rebounds. I would KILL for him to add Amar'e Stoudemire's classic face up, jab step, one dribble, spin back, and yam. Just being comfortable with a jab step and straight line drive from inside the freethrow line like Amar'e and Duncan had would open his game so much. Dwight wasn't at their level, but he had more shot creation ability in Orlando than Ayton does now.

The 3-point shot has been on everyone's wishlist for awhile, but I don't like the idea of having someone whose most valuable skill on offense is offensive rebounding to look for more shots on the perimeter, especially when he's not comfortable attacking a closeout.


Agreed. I think basically he needs enough that we can throw him the ball late and he can get a bucket.

We saw when CP3 and Booker were double teamed in the 4th quarters, Ayton had nothing to go to.

Not a criticism really, its just where he's at. But he needs to be able to at least beat 1 on 1 coverage to keep the defence honest and free up our guards.

A simple 2 dribble move with a counter would suffice.
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Re: Deandre Ayton year 3, the next step 

Post#1122 » by enigmatics » Thu Jul 22, 2021 10:44 pm

suns12345 wrote:
darealjuice wrote:No one wants Ayton to abandon what he's doing well to try playing point guard or pretending to be Giannis. The point is that he needs to expand his offensive game beyond spoon feeding and offensive rebounds. I would KILL for him to add Amar'e Stoudemire's classic face up, jab step, one dribble, spin back, and yam. Just being comfortable with a jab step and straight line drive from inside the freethrow line like Amar'e and Duncan had would open his game so much. Dwight wasn't at their level, but he had more shot creation ability in Orlando than Ayton does now.

The 3-point shot has been on everyone's wishlist for awhile, but I don't like the idea of having someone whose most valuable skill on offense is offensive rebounding to look for more shots on the perimeter, especially when he's not comfortable attacking a closeout.


Agreed. I think basically he needs enough that we can throw him the ball late and he can get a bucket.

We saw when CP3 and Booker were double teamed in the 4th quarters, Ayton had nothing to go to.

Not a criticism really, its just where he's at. But he needs to be able to at least beat 1 on 1 coverage to keep the defence honest and free up our guards.

A simple 2 dribble move with a counter would suffice.


Mark Bryant isn't going to be the one to get him there. Hope they find someone else.
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Re: Deandre Ayton year 3, the next step 

Post#1123 » by bigfoot » Thu Jul 22, 2021 11:31 pm

enigmatics wrote:
suns12345 wrote:
darealjuice wrote:No one wants Ayton to abandon what he's doing well to try playing point guard or pretending to be Giannis. The point is that he needs to expand his offensive game beyond spoon feeding and offensive rebounds. I would KILL for him to add Amar'e Stoudemire's classic face up, jab step, one dribble, spin back, and yam. Just being comfortable with a jab step and straight line drive from inside the freethrow line like Amar'e and Duncan had would open his game so much. Dwight wasn't at their level, but he had more shot creation ability in Orlando than Ayton does now.

The 3-point shot has been on everyone's wishlist for awhile, but I don't like the idea of having someone whose most valuable skill on offense is offensive rebounding to look for more shots on the perimeter, especially when he's not comfortable attacking a closeout.


Agreed. I think basically he needs enough that we can throw him the ball late and he can get a bucket.

We saw when CP3 and Booker were double teamed in the 4th quarters, Ayton had nothing to go to.

Not a criticism really, its just where he's at. But he needs to be able to at least beat 1 on 1 coverage to keep the defence honest and free up our guards.

A simple 2 dribble move with a counter would suffice.


Mark Bryant isn't going to be the one to get him there. Hope they find someone else.


He needs a small man coach to work on his ball-handling and attacking the basket. Who better than CP3? Suns just need to make it a priority.
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Re: Deandre Ayton year 3, the next step 

Post#1124 » by Saberestar » Sun Aug 1, 2021 6:13 am

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Re: Deandre Ayton year 3, the next step 

Post#1125 » by RedIndian » Wed Aug 4, 2021 2:06 pm

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Hmm. The single biggest thing I want to see DA improve on is his ability to put the ball on the floor.

Will open up sooo much for him. If he can put the ball on the floor on those short rolls sky is the limit. He'll get to the line more, he'll have cutters and shooters to hit more easily. Doesn't have to be something too anything complicated. Just simple one or two dribble drives is what he needs to get comfortable with.
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Re: Deandre Ayton year 3, the next step 

Post#1126 » by sunsbg » Wed Aug 4, 2021 3:02 pm

Still going for a fade-away, not impressed. :lol:

After watching Giannis average 20FTA hopefully he works on jumping into people as well.
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Re: Deandre Ayton year 3, the next step 

Post#1127 » by bigfoot » Wed Aug 4, 2021 3:19 pm

RedIndian wrote:
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Hmm. The single biggest thing I want to see DA improve on is his ability to put the ball on the floor.

Will open up sooo much for him. If he can put the ball on the floor on those short rolls sky is the limit. He'll get to the line more, he'll have cutters and shooters to hit more easily. Doesn't have to be something too anything complicated. Just simple one or two dribble drives is what he needs to get comfortable with.


This is a start in the right direction. Facing the basket, working on ball handling skills. Obviously, he needs to be able to get downhill on big players. That should improve his FT rate and his assists as double teams will come.
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Re: Deandre Ayton year 3, the next step 

Post#1128 » by Ghost of Kleine » Wed Aug 25, 2021 4:19 am

Zona (@ZonaHoops_) Tweeted:
Deandre Ayton attacking off-the-dribble is the next evolution in his game, not the jumper.

He can beat 95% of centers on a straight-line drive with how quickly he covers ground off one or two dribbles. Once he realizes this, pt. 1 of the offensive leap is coming.
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Re: Deandre Ayton year 3, the next step 

Post#1129 » by lilfishi22 » Wed Aug 25, 2021 5:27 am

Been saying it since his rookie year. The 3pt shot is a good thing for team offense with PnP opportunities but the real value improvement would be Ayton putting the ball on the court and create offense on his own. He doesn't need to have KAT level abilities to create from the 3PT line but even from the high post where he often gets the ball for the hand off, if he can create from there, he would really be one or two dribbles max from the basket.
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Re: Deandre Ayton year 3, the next step 

Post#1130 » by Mulhollanddrive » Wed Aug 25, 2021 10:48 am

That's an exciting proposition if Ayton can get comfortable with a 2 dribble drive or a 1 dribble spin hook shot.

Getting stronger is the key for him to be willing to bang into guys under the rim to draw fouls.
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Re: Deandre Ayton year 3, the next step 

Post#1131 » by Ghost of Kleine » Thu Sep 2, 2021 8:31 pm

Xin Varlock (@XinNBA) Tweeted:
A dirty little secret here is that Jokic shot 37/93 (<40%), turned the ball over 7 times, and only drew 5 FTs when matched up vs Ayton.

On the other end, Ayton shot 29/47 (62%) against Jokic.

Jokic is better in a vacuum, but the matchup advantage goes to Ayton.
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Re: Deandre Ayton year 3, the next step 

Post#1132 » by suns12345 » Fri Sep 3, 2021 12:34 am

Ghost of Kleine wrote:Xin Varlock (@XinNBA) Tweeted:
A dirty little secret here is that Jokic shot 37/93 (<40%), turned the ball over 7 times, and only drew 5 FTs when matched up vs Ayton.

On the other end, Ayton shot 29/47 (62%) against Jokic.

Jokic is better in a vacuum, but the matchup advantage goes to Ayton.
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Ayton is an interesting player, I feel like he's maybe flirting with being a top 5 centre, but (at least in the playoffs) showed he can outplay or neutralise any of the centres who are better than him on the list.

Makes for an interesting dynamic when we play dominant big men.
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Re: Deandre Ayton year 3, the next step 

Post#1133 » by Ghost of Kleine » Sun Sep 5, 2021 7:14 am

Xin Varlock (@XinNBA) Tweeted:
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Critical next step for Ayton! Especially for him to become a strong free throw generator for us.
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Re: Deandre Ayton year 3, the next step 

Post#1134 » by bwgood77 » Sun Sep 5, 2021 5:17 pm

Ghost of Kleine wrote:Xin Varlock (@XinNBA) Tweeted:
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Critical next step for Ayton! Especially for him to become a strong free throw generator for us.


He has a lot more of that up his sleeve if he gets more touches, open lanes, and the green light. Did stuff like that more in college, but has started to show things like that more often this year. It will continue I'm sure.

It's a little tougher the closer he is when he gets double/triple teamed to make moves and put on floor without risking turnover too, so he primarily should just try to be a high percentage finisher, as big post players these days given all the math analysis, are typically just not a high % shot particularly when double teamed or even going against one big good defender. Teams just end up killing you with their high % 3s and finishes at the rim.
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Re: Deandre Ayton year 3, the next step 

Post#1135 » by Ghost of Kleine » Sun Sep 5, 2021 6:26 pm

bwgood77 wrote:
Ghost of Kleine wrote:Xin Varlock (@XinNBA) Tweeted:
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Critical next step for Ayton! Especially for him to become a strong free throw generator for us.


He has a lot more of that up his sleeve if he gets more touches, open lanes, and the green light. Did stuff like that more in college, but has started to show things like that more often this year. It will continue I'm sure.

It's a little tougher the closer he is when he gets double/triple teamed to make moves and put on floor without risking turnover too, so he primarily should just try to be a high percentage finisher, as big post players these days given all the math analysis, are typically just not a high % shot particularly when double teamed or even going against one big good defender. Teams just end up killing you with their high % 3s and finishes at the rim.


The more floor spacing that we can offer him, The better those opportunities will be for him to utilize that ability ( as he hopefully further develops it) which ironically in turn will also help him get to the rim and generate more free throws as well! This would become huge for us obviously. :nod:
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Re: Deandre Ayton year 3, the next step 

Post#1136 » by darealjuice » Mon Sep 6, 2021 3:06 am

bwgood77 wrote:
Ghost of Kleine wrote:Xin Varlock (@XinNBA) Tweeted:
Read on Twitter
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Critical next step for Ayton! Especially for him to become a strong free throw generator for us.


He has a lot more of that up his sleeve if he gets more touches, open lanes, and the green light. Did stuff like that more in college, but has started to show things like that more often this year. It will continue I'm sure.

It's a little tougher the closer he is when he gets double/triple teamed to make moves and put on floor without risking turnover too, so he primarily should just try to be a high percentage finisher, as big post players these days given all the math analysis, are typically just not a high % shot particularly when double teamed or even going against one big good defender. Teams just end up killing you with their high % 3s and finishes at the rim.


Honestly dribbling has never been a big part of his game. You can probably count the number of highlights involving him dribbling in this highlight video on your hands.



I'm hopeful though. He's started flashed it more, just some consistency.
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Re: Deandre Ayton year 3, the next step 

Post#1137 » by Ghost of Kleine » Mon Sep 6, 2021 3:24 am

darealjuice wrote:
bwgood77 wrote:
Ghost of Kleine wrote:Xin Varlock (@XinNBA) Tweeted:
Read on Twitter
?s=20

Critical next step for Ayton! Especially for him to become a strong free throw generator for us.


He has a lot more of that up his sleeve if he gets more touches, open lanes, and the green light. Did stuff like that more in college, but has started to show things like that more often this year. It will continue I'm sure.

It's a little tougher the closer he is when he gets double/triple teamed to make moves and put on floor without risking turnover too, so he primarily should just try to be a high percentage finisher, as big post players these days given all the math analysis, are typically just not a high % shot particularly when double teamed or even going against one big good defender. Teams just end up killing you with their high % 3s and finishes at the rim.


Honestly dribbling has never been a big part of his game. You can probably count the number of highlights involving him dribbling in this highlight video on your hands.



I'm hopeful though. He's started flashed it more, just some consistency.


Still I wonder how much franchises do or more to the point don't simply invest in specialized development coaches that can mentor their key players in areas of weakness to their games. I can't imagine that the cost incurred would be too much to offset the payoff should these developmental coaches help them progress/ develop those areas faster? I mean could you even imagine if Ayton could actually develop his ballhandling skills along the lines of Giannis or AD or a Jokic? That's got to easily be worth the investment! :nod:
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Re: Deandre Ayton year 3, the next step 

Post#1138 » by lilfishi22 » Mon Sep 6, 2021 3:39 am

I'd imagine every team brings in developmental consultants to work with specific players and the main "big man" coach being the overseer of a big's development with the consultants and training staff. Similar to how Nash was a consultant for the Warriors for a few years after retirement.

I just think we don't hear much about it because the consultants being brought in aren't necessarily big names on their own. By that I mean, Monty might have worked with a bunch of consultants over the years and just brings in the guys he knows well so these guys might be known in the NBA circle but aren't big names individually like the Drew Hanlen's, Chris Brickley's or like Hakeem. Plenty of players become better overall or at specific skills like shooting without necessarily having to bring in a high level shooting coach like Chris Matthews aka Lethal Shooter
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Lebron - Zion, Barrett like Melo, wade like Culver, garland like tj ford, hunter like bosh, white like Barbosa, Clarke like David West. I think this draft is actually going to be deeper though
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Re: Deandre Ayton year 3, the next step 

Post#1139 » by darealjuice » Mon Sep 6, 2021 3:53 am

Ghost of Kleine wrote:Still I wonder how much franchises do or more to the point don't simply invest in specialized development coaches that can mentor their key players in areas of weakness to their games. I can't imagine that the cost incurred would be too much to offset the payoff should these developmental coaches help them progress/ develop those areas faster? I mean could you even imagine if Ayton could actually develop his ballhandling skills along the lines of Giannis or AD or a Jokic? That's got to easily be worth the investment! :nod:


It's as much changing the way he plays as it is skill development. He's not necessarily passive, but he tends to shoot when he's open and move the ball when he's not. I'm sure they have him doing ball handling drills, and we've seen video of them doing 1 on 1 drills facing up in the post, but doing it live is different from doing it in a drill.

All of those guys handled the ball a lot through their development. AD was a guard before he had a ridiculous growth spurt, Giannis handled the ball a lot in Greece and developed handling the ball at lot in Milwaukee, and Jokic showed that this to a lesser extent in Europe too. 7 footers handling the ball is not the norm unfortunately.
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Re: Deandre Ayton year 3, the next step 

Post#1140 » by Ghost of Kleine » Thu Sep 16, 2021 8:38 pm

Frank Urbina (@FrankUrbina_) Tweeted:
Wrapping up the offseason series...

22. Nerlens Noel
...
15. Richaun Holmes
...
8. Clint Capela
...
3. Rudy Gobert
...
1.

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Ayton coming in at #6 begind only Adebayo (5), Towns (4), Embiid (3), Gobert (2), and Jokic (1) is surely encouraging!!
I'd have to think that If he can improve his ballhandling/ iso skills and/ or his 3 or shot, He's got to sneak into the top 3 for sure :nod:
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