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Deandre Ayton year 4, the next step

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Re: Deandre Ayton year 3, the next step 

Post#1141 » by lilfishi22 » Thu Sep 16, 2021 11:06 pm

Just outside of the top 5 C's in the NBA after 2.5 seasons, not bad development!

I think he's probably not too far from breaking into that top 5 but it would be a tall order to break into that Jokic/Embiid/Towns top 3.
alamin330 wrote:This draft reminds me of the 2003 draft.
Lebron - Zion, Barrett like Melo, wade like Culver, garland like tj ford, hunter like bosh, white like Barbosa, Clarke like David West. I think this draft is actually going to be deeper though
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Re: Deandre Ayton year 3, the next step 

Post#1142 » by Ghost of Kleine » Thu Sep 16, 2021 11:52 pm

lilfishi22 wrote:Just outside of the top 5 C's in the NBA after 2.5 seasons, not bad development!

I think he's probably not too far from breaking into that top 5 but it would be a tall order to break into that Jokic/Embiid/Towns top 3.


That it would! I don't know that he could displace Towns ( in the next 2-3 seasons) or Jokic ( in terms of versatility/ playmaking), But I do think he can become more dominant and versatile than Embiid. And he may IF he finds his fire/ passion to be really great could absolutely challenge Towns in the next few years by offsetting things as a defensive anchor whilst putting up comparable offensive production. IF he wants it bad enough to maintain his tenacity and aggression. :dontknow:
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Re: Deandre Ayton year 3, the next step 

Post#1143 » by lilfishi22 » Fri Sep 17, 2021 1:49 am

Ghost of Kleine wrote:
lilfishi22 wrote:Just outside of the top 5 C's in the NBA after 2.5 seasons, not bad development!

I think he's probably not too far from breaking into that top 5 but it would be a tall order to break into that Jokic/Embiid/Towns top 3.


That it would! I don't know that he could displace Towns ( in the next 2-3 seasons) or Jokic ( in terms of versatility/ playmaking), But I do think he can become more dominant and versatile than Embiid. And he may IF he finds his fire/ passion to be really great could absolutely challenge Towns in the next few years by offsetting things as a defensive anchor whilst putting up comparable offensive production. IF he wants it bad enough to maintain his tenacity and aggression. :dontknow:

I think he has more of a chance of being better than Towns than Embiid or Jokic. Jokic is too versatile and absolutely elite on the offensive end while being the anchor on offense similar to Nash on the Suns. Embiid is just too dominant on both ends of the court. I think Towns is elite offensively but I wouldn't call him dominant and on defense, he does leave a lot to be deserved.

Either way, I don't think Ayton quite gets there offensively but he could be as dominant defensively as Embiid which is certainly a massive asset.
alamin330 wrote:This draft reminds me of the 2003 draft.
Lebron - Zion, Barrett like Melo, wade like Culver, garland like tj ford, hunter like bosh, white like Barbosa, Clarke like David West. I think this draft is actually going to be deeper though
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Re: Deandre Ayton year 3, the next step 

Post#1144 » by Ghost of Kleine » Thu Sep 23, 2021 3:42 pm

Matt Petersen (@TheMattPetersen) Tweeted:
Ayton’s first postseason was an enormously valuable lesson in consistency. He was great, but learned even newfound greatness can wear down until you refuse to let it.

Games 1-3 (12 gms): 18.5ppg, 11.9rpg, 71.3 FG%

Games 4-6 (10 gms): 12.5ppg, 11.7 rpg, 57.1 FG%
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Re: Deandre Ayton year 3, the next step 

Post#1145 » by lilfishi22 » Thu Sep 23, 2021 11:33 pm

I do like that despite a big drop in FG%, it's still well above average and his rebounding is consistent. The scoring is less concerning because right now, a large portion of his scoring comes off the backs of the team creating opportunities for him ie he doesn't have significant control over his shot opportunities. As he continues to grow, develop and improve his offensive skill set, he'll be able to have more control over his own offensive consistency.
alamin330 wrote:This draft reminds me of the 2003 draft.
Lebron - Zion, Barrett like Melo, wade like Culver, garland like tj ford, hunter like bosh, white like Barbosa, Clarke like David West. I think this draft is actually going to be deeper though
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Re: Deandre Ayton year 3, the next step 

Post#1146 » by sunsbg » Thu Sep 30, 2021 6:32 pm

https://www.brightsideofthesun.com/2021/9/30/22701213/deandre-ayton-phoenix-suns-wants-a-bigger-role-in-the-suns-offense-and-he-wants-it-now

Apparently his first season coming to the camp in great shape. With Booker out for some time even better opportunity to show new aspects of his game during preseason.
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Re: Deandre Ayton year 3, the next step 

Post#1147 » by 8on » Thu Oct 14, 2021 4:02 pm

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Re: Deandre Ayton year 3, the next step 

Post#1148 » by lilfishi22 » Thu Oct 14, 2021 10:25 pm

Isn't that the biggest difference between Shaq and Ayton offensively? Aggressiveness? You can't really "mirror Shaq" if you don't have the one fundamental aspect of Shaq's game. They really do play quite a different game

Not a knock on Ayton but the Shaq comparison just doesn't feel like it's placed on the right player.
alamin330 wrote:This draft reminds me of the 2003 draft.
Lebron - Zion, Barrett like Melo, wade like Culver, garland like tj ford, hunter like bosh, white like Barbosa, Clarke like David West. I think this draft is actually going to be deeper though
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Re: Deandre Ayton year 3, the next step 

Post#1149 » by Slim Charless » Thu Oct 14, 2021 11:04 pm

lilfishi22 wrote:Isn't that the biggest difference between Shaq and Ayton offensively? Aggressiveness? You can't really "mirror Shaq" if you don't have the one fundamental aspect of Shaq's game. They really do play quite a different game

Not a knock on Ayton but the Shaq comparison just doesn't feel like it's placed on the right player.


Maybe Orlando Shaq since he was so quick for his size. In reality though Ayton's comp coming out was David Robinson and he's done nothing to shake that imo. If The Admiral was playing today his game would look alot like how DA is playing.
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Re: Deandre Ayton year 3, the next step 

Post#1150 » by ATTL » Fri Oct 15, 2021 1:38 am

Ayton doesn't know how to use his size or athleticism like the great centers of the past.
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Re: Deandre Ayton year 3, the next step 

Post#1151 » by bwgood77 » Fri Oct 15, 2021 2:38 am

Not a good comparison. Shaq would never be able to guard guys on the perimeter but people would think twice about taking it to the rim with him there...way bigger rim deterrent and inside scoring force. But Ayton is better at perimeter D, free throw shooting (doesn't get to the line nearly as much but hits at a lot better %). Ayton also has better tough on short/mid range shots.
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Re: Deandre Ayton year 3, the next step 

Post#1152 » by ImNotMcDiSwear » Fri Oct 15, 2021 2:52 am

ATTL wrote:Ayton doesn't know how to use his size or athleticism like the great centers of the past.


I disagree. The key difference is that the bar on offense has been raised too high to play like those guys did. As good as Hakeem, Robinson and Ewing were, an offense based around those guys would be the worst offense in the league today. I watched those guys shoot mid-range and turnaround jump shots for years. At the percentages they shot them, they just weren't good shots by modern standards.

Compare these percentages: https://www.teamrankings.com/nba/stat/effective-field-goal-pct

To these (look at EFG%, or TS% if you prefer):
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/o/olajuha01.html
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/e/ewingpa01.html
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/r/robinda01.html

Another way to look at it is to see how many active players are on this list: https://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/efg_pct_season.html

Ayton isn't great at drawing fouls, but he's become an extremely efficient post and mid-range shooter, because he has to be. And if you want to compare him to a big who is aggressive and draws lots of fouls, just take a look at where Embiid sits on that list. Deandre's still improving, too. I don't know why everyone's being so hard on him, frankly. Perhaps it's because we remember Amare so well. But each player's different. Deandre's no Amare on offense, but Amare was even further from where Deandre is on defense.
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Re: Deandre Ayton year 3, the next step 

Post#1153 » by Saberestar » Sun Oct 31, 2021 7:48 am

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Re: Deandre Ayton year 3, the next step 

Post#1154 » by ImNotMcDiSwear » Sun Oct 31, 2021 4:35 pm

I thought Deandre played about the best he's ever played in that first half against Cleveland last night. Three And-1s - triple his career best, if I had to guess, in just 24 minutes of play. 17 and 12, +30. Great hands on D. Same # of rebounds as Allen and Mobley in their combined 44 minutes. Thoroughly destroyed Jarrett Allen.

Who was that fool who said we'd be better off starting Javale? I thought it was someone with a significant # of posts, which confused me, as the comment made me wonder if they'd ever watched a game of basketball. Oh, well.

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Re: Deandre Ayton year 3, the next step 

Post#1155 » by Ghost of Kleine » Tue Nov 2, 2021 10:31 pm

bwgood77 wrote:Not a good comparison. Shaq would never be able to guard guys on the perimeter but people would think twice about taking it to the rim with him there...way bigger rim deterrent and inside scoring force. But Ayton is better at perimeter D, free throw shooting (doesn't get to the line nearly as much but hits at a lot better %). Ayton also has better tough on short/mid range shots.


To me, Aytons' ceiling would end up being somewhere in between Ewing offensively and Olajuwan defensively. He just has to stay aggressive, continue to work on his offense And become more disciplined on defense.

For the love of God could we possibly all chip in ( if Savers' too cheap) to send him to Olajuwans' dream camp??
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Re: Deandre Ayton year 3, the next step 

Post#1156 » by lilfishi22 » Tue Nov 2, 2021 11:25 pm

Ayton ceiling being Ewing offensively and Olajuwon defensively would make him probably a top 10 player of all time. Ewing was a 20ppg scorer for 13 years straight and was putting up 20/10 as a top option in his mid 30's. Olajuwon was an elite shot blocker and rebounder with 9 All-defensive teams and 2 DPOYs to him name.

Realistically, I just don't see him near those guys. That's not a knock on him because these are HOF dudes but to project Ayton's ceiling to be that high is more an indication of his physical potential than reality.
alamin330 wrote:This draft reminds me of the 2003 draft.
Lebron - Zion, Barrett like Melo, wade like Culver, garland like tj ford, hunter like bosh, white like Barbosa, Clarke like David West. I think this draft is actually going to be deeper though
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Re: Deandre Ayton year 3, the next step 

Post#1157 » by bwgood77 » Wed Nov 3, 2021 12:01 am

Ewing may have seemed good on offense in the day, but he only had like a 50% FG%, often had years under that in the 40s, which is awful for a C. It's not like he shot 3s. He settle for a lot of jumpers and just didn't particularly do that well. He may have scored 20 ppg because he took a lot of shots, but I don't put much stock in players scoring a lot because they took a lot of shots.

That's why the Knicks were only good a few years with him there and only a semi contender for 4-5 years. He is a full tier or two below Shaq and Wilt offensively, and a little behind Robinson and Olajuwon, but those guys were elite defensive bigs.

Shaq was 58% from the field and Wilt 54%. Ayton is over 60 this year and last and 58.5% as a rookie. As a sophomore he dropped to like 54% which is still better than those guys.

Of course when people compare they think of those guys in their primes too, not there first few years, and they came in with years in college a lot older as well.
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Re: Deandre Ayton year 3, the next step 

Post#1158 » by lilfishi22 » Wed Nov 3, 2021 12:14 am

A lot of bigs back in the day weren't efficient but they were the best option because it was just the way the game was played. Shaq and Kareem were both truly dominant with their scoring as evidenced by their super efficiency but then you have guys like Hakeem, Moses, TD and even David Robinson who were just above 50% from the field for their careers. Even Karl Malone only had 2 seasons were he shot above 55% from the field.

Agree there's different tiers but dominant bigs shooting well above 50% is more the exception than the norm.
alamin330 wrote:This draft reminds me of the 2003 draft.
Lebron - Zion, Barrett like Melo, wade like Culver, garland like tj ford, hunter like bosh, white like Barbosa, Clarke like David West. I think this draft is actually going to be deeper though
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Re: Deandre Ayton year 3, the next step 

Post#1159 » by bwgood77 » Wed Nov 3, 2021 12:22 am

lilfishi22 wrote:A lot of bigs back in the day weren't efficient but they were the best option because it was just the way the game was played. Shaq and Kareem were both truly dominant with their scoring as evidenced by their super efficiency but then you have guys like Hakeem, Moses, TD and even David Robinson who were just above 50% from the field for their careers. Even Karl Malone only had 2 seasons were he shot above 55% from the field.

Agree there's different tiers but dominant bigs shooting well above 50% is more the exception than the norm.


It's just hard to compare eras when it is drilled into players and especially bigs to cut out the midrange shots.

But Ayton could without a doubt average 20-25 ppg on 50% from the field. With ease.
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Re: Deandre Ayton year 3, the next step 

Post#1160 » by lilfishi22 » Wed Nov 3, 2021 12:55 am

bwgood77 wrote:
lilfishi22 wrote:A lot of bigs back in the day weren't efficient but they were the best option because it was just the way the game was played. Shaq and Kareem were both truly dominant with their scoring as evidenced by their super efficiency but then you have guys like Hakeem, Moses, TD and even David Robinson who were just above 50% from the field for their careers. Even Karl Malone only had 2 seasons were he shot above 55% from the field.

Agree there's different tiers but dominant bigs shooting well above 50% is more the exception than the norm.


It's just hard to compare eras when it is drilled into players and especially bigs to cut out the midrange shots.

But Ayton could without a doubt average 20-25 ppg on 50% from the field. With ease.

Yeah I've mentioned before I think Ayton could be a 20-25ppg scorer on above 50% shooting. I don't really see it as long as we have a CP3 led offense though.
alamin330 wrote:This draft reminds me of the 2003 draft.
Lebron - Zion, Barrett like Melo, wade like Culver, garland like tj ford, hunter like bosh, white like Barbosa, Clarke like David West. I think this draft is actually going to be deeper though

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