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Deandre Ayton year 3, the next step

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Re: Deandre Ayton year 3, the next step 

Post#281 » by Revived » Tue Jan 12, 2021 10:20 am

CP3 seems to be getting annoyed with Ayton.

This is supposed to be a normal pick and roll and first off Ayton doesn’t set a good screen and could’ve been called for moving screen as he moves his hip. But the pick and roll still works as CP3 draws both his own defender and Ayton’s defender to him leaving Ayton open underneath. CP3 throws up a lob but Ayton isn’t ready for it and results in a turnover which becomes a Wizards fastbreak and concludes with Booker fouling Hachimura and sending him to the FT line. Ayton’s hands were incredible his first two seasons but he’s had a more difficult time catching passes this season which has contributed to turnovers.

Check out CP3’s reaction/frustration after he sees the lob wasn’t caught.

Spoiler:
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Re: Deandre Ayton year 3, the next step 

Post#282 » by Bogyo » Tue Jan 12, 2021 10:36 am

Even the pick he starts to set sucks. He is not crossing the defenders way, there is a point where he is on the 3 point line, fully backwards to the basket, defender fully in front of him, so there is no "pick" whatsoever. He should be sideways in order to "block" the defenders path to follow CP. He (kinda) corrects it - as you said moving pick, and CP still makes this crap work, that's how good he is at the PnR. But eventually there is not much else he can do... no wonder he is frustrated.

The reason I point this out is, becouse this is a "normal" play for Ayton. He does this most of the times when he is in a PnR situation. He is simply standing there the WRONG WAY to begin with - that is why we can't really run any decent PnR action this year. The most basic/fundamental play on offense. He can not understand (or execute) to STAND THE RIGHT WAY. What the F do you do with a dude like that?
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Re: Deandre Ayton year 3, the next step 

Post#283 » by sunsbg » Tue Jan 12, 2021 10:56 am

There is someone more annoying than Ayton.

This was a bad play from both. CP3 doing some flashy, but no substance stuff in this play. Ayton's pick was bad, Paul's pass even worse.
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Re: Deandre Ayton year 3, the next step 

Post#284 » by Bogyo » Tue Jan 12, 2021 1:04 pm

Almost all of Aytons PnRs are that bad. Like this, or with some other fundamental mistakes in them. My pet rock would do a better job, as it would just be standing where I put it, and wouldn't make things worse by turning sideways or other dumbs stuff.
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Re: Deandre Ayton year 3, the next step 

Post#285 » by alamin330 » Tue Jan 12, 2021 1:22 pm

Y’all don’t want a DA trade trust me. Knowing JJ he probably trades Ayton for someone like Tacko Fall or Kelly Olynyk. I would love to see James Jones stock portfolio. He probably buys everything high and sells everything low. James Jones needs a mentor. He needs some guidance and education because he seems to be delusional
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Re: Deandre Ayton year 3, the next step 

Post#286 » by Saberestar » Tue Jan 12, 2021 1:38 pm

Revived wrote:CP3 seems to be getting annoyed with Ayton.

This is supposed to be a normal pick and roll and first off Ayton doesn’t set a good screen and could’ve been called for moving screen as he moves his hip. But the pick and roll still works as CP3 draws both his own defender and Ayton’s defender to him leaving Ayton open underneath. CP3 throws up a lob but Ayton isn’t ready for it and results in a turnover which becomes a Wizards fastbreak and concludes with Booker fouling Hachimura and sending him to the FT line. Ayton’s hands were incredible his first two seasons but he’s had a more difficult time catching passes this season which has contributed to turnovers.

Check out CP3’s reaction/frustration after he sees the lob wasn’t caught.

Spoiler:

Ayton reacts slowly and that is why he is not a very good P&R player.

He is not fearless, and that's why he doesn't like to go at full speed or strongly in traffic. That's why we usually puts a blind screen for him after he makes a P&R because he needs space to grab the ball and finish around the rim. He needs to catch the ball on a cleared space.

Not sure how this is gonna end. Too much inconsistency from Ayton, you never know how he is gonna play the next game. For a few games he plays well, stays active and then he is almost unwatchable on another game.
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Re: Deandre Ayton year 3, the next step 

Post#287 » by Bogyo » Tue Jan 12, 2021 1:57 pm

alamin330 wrote:Y’all don’t want a DA trade trust me. Knowing JJ he probably trades Ayton for someone like Tacko Fall or Kelly Olynyk. I would love to see James Jones stock portfolio. He probably buys everything high and sells everything low. James Jones needs a mentor. He needs some guidance and education because he seems to be delusional


Havent thought of this so far, but kinda legit point... :o :roll: We probably add a couple draft pick for their troubles as well - but it's all OK, becouse we got the guy we wanted and we raised our floor! :lol:
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Re: Deandre Ayton year 3, the next step 

Post#288 » by alamin330 » Tue Jan 12, 2021 2:02 pm

Revived wrote:CP3 seems to be getting annoyed with Ayton.

This is supposed to be a normal pick and roll and first off Ayton doesn’t set a good screen and could’ve been called for moving screen as he moves his hip. But the pick and roll still works as CP3 draws both his own defender and Ayton’s defender to him leaving Ayton open underneath. CP3 throws up a lob but Ayton isn’t ready for it and results in a turnover which becomes a Wizards fastbreak and concludes with Booker fouling Hachimura and sending him to the FT line. Ayton’s hands were incredible his first two seasons but he’s had a more difficult time catching passes this season which has contributed to turnovers.

Check out CP3’s reaction/frustration after he sees the lob wasn’t caught.

Spoiler:

ThTs a terrible pass bro. Especially when he never passes to him to begin with Ayton probably never expected that to go to him. Cuz CP3 doesn’t look for Ayton.
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Re: Deandre Ayton year 3, the next step 

Post#289 » by bigfoot » Tue Jan 12, 2021 3:25 pm

I'd be surprised if Ayton is here for his next contract. Does not seem the type of player JJ likes.
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Re: Deandre Ayton year 3, the next step 

Post#290 » by bwgood77 » Tue Jan 12, 2021 7:43 pm

lilfishi22 wrote:Maybe it's hopeless but my hope with Ayton's mental aversion to contact/scoring in the paint when he's in the paint is the same with TJ Warren and his 3pt shot.

Most would remember, TJ didn't like shooting the 3 when he got into the NBA and while he had a solid sophomore season hitting 40% from 3 (on 1.5 3PA a game), instead of building off it, he went away from it for two whole seasons for whatever reason. Then all of a sudden in the offseason leading up to his 5th season, he put in the work and shot 42,000 three's in preparation for the upcoming season and he not only did he more than double his 3PA's (4.2 per game), he also raised his accuracy to well above 40%.

I thought Ayton made some progress offensively last season and I thought he'd build off that in the offseason. What I see instead is a regression. I just hope that it doesn't take until year 5 for him to figure out that hey, his scoring is not just valuable but we can actually be a really good team if he's looking for his shot.


Same thing happened to Mikal last season when they had tried to change his shot, and he had the hitch. TONS of people were complaining because he was hesitant to shoot the 3 and kept avoiding it and always driving. He started the season for the first few months playing like that until he fixed it...but still didn't shoot it nearly as much as he did this year, and still wasn't nearly as decisive as he is with it now.

Again, if you look back at a lot of bigs in their 3rd year, they didn't do much....didn't score as much, dunk as much, do as much, and it's probably tougher to bang inside with big guys when you are young..probably intimidating for a lot of guys when these experienced nba guys know what they can get away with.

A lot different than being a guard or wing and shooting a lot of jump shots.
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Re: Deandre Ayton year 3, the next step 

Post#291 » by Frank Lee » Tue Jan 12, 2021 7:43 pm

I think you have to start considering he will be an expensive piece to keep. And he likely won’t be that much better over the next 2-3 yrs. Id keep an eye on Collins and hope he continues to grumble. Would rather pay him 20 mil than DA 15.

If DA’s numbskull level of play does not change, I don’t know how he wouldn’t at least be a possible trade chip. He’s fifth on my list of youngsters to ink and keep and call a core. Once that bad apple gets out of my barrel, I won’t look back.
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Re: Deandre Ayton year 3, the next step 

Post#292 » by bwgood77 » Tue Jan 12, 2021 7:45 pm

SunsLyf3 wrote:The only thing that keeps me with some hope is that he has about a season and a half of games under his belt. He's technically hitting his sophmore slump.


And it was hard to train in this offseason with everyone quarantining. You can only do so much at home by yourself to get in basketball shape..and it's tougher with that much weight on you.

Also a game like his relies so much on others it would have been nice to have more of a training camp and summer to practice with teammates. He will get better throughout the season.
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Re: Deandre Ayton year 3, the next step 

Post#293 » by bwgood77 » Tue Jan 12, 2021 7:46 pm

lilfishi22 wrote:
Blackification wrote:
lilfishi22 wrote:Maybe it's hopeless but my hope with Ayton's mental aversion to contact/scoring in the paint when he's in the paint is the same with TJ Warren and his 3pt shot.

Most would remember, TJ didn't like shooting the 3 when he got into the NBA and while he had a solid sophomore season hitting 40% from 3 (on 1.5 3PA a game), instead of building off it, he went away from it for two whole seasons for whatever reason. Then all of a sudden in the offseason leading up to his 5th season, he put in the work and shot 42,000 three's in preparation for the upcoming season and he not only did he more than double his 3PA's (4.2 per game), he also raised his accuracy to well above 40%.

I thought Ayton made some progress offensively last season and I thought he'd build off that in the offseason. What I see instead is a regression. I just hope that it doesn't take until year 5 for him to figure out that hey, his scoring is not just valuable but we can actually be a really good team if he's looking for his shot.

When's his contract year? He will figure it out then and play with effort only to regress back once he gets his payday.

Earliest he's eligible for an extension is this upcoming off-season so this season is technically contract year


Next season is technically his contract year. Sure we can extend him early but this year isn't his contract year just because we can extend him early.
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Re: Deandre Ayton year 3, the next step 

Post#294 » by sunsbg » Tue Jan 12, 2021 9:00 pm

Ayton's confidence on offense is broken, that's clear. He's not a good fit for 0.5s offense, Booker is not, CP3 is not. Monty better prepare some set plays for those three. Opportunities for Mikal and Jae to shoot 3s will always be there. Then with the second unit run-and-gun as much as you like. Changing the pace will only confuse opponents.

DA used to be automatic from midrange in rookie year, now he struggles there as well. Having a reliable weapon gives you confidence. They can draw some plays to open him for those shots. Murray set screens for Jokic on several occasions in the Nuggets game. There was a play where Booker did the same for Ayton, but it didn't go well. Need to practice it more, obviously. Then in addition of a PnR, there is a PnP, but it's never used. They should find a way to reward him on the court for doing mostly the dirty work. Nobody will be happy at their work under such conditions, doesn't matter if it's basketball or whatever.
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Re: Deandre Ayton year 3, the next step 

Post#295 » by lilfishi22 » Tue Jan 12, 2021 9:35 pm

Frank Lee wrote:I think you have to start considering he will be an expensive piece to keep. And he likely won’t be that much better over the next 2-3 yrs. Id keep an eye on Collins and hope he continues to grumble. Would rather pay him 20 mil than DA 15.

If DA’s numbskull level of play does not change, I don’t know how he wouldn’t at least be a possible trade chip. He’s fifth on my list of youngsters to ink and keep and call a core. Once that bad apple gets out of my barrel, I won’t look back.

I value DA's PnR and general defense a lot but I can't help but imagine a guy like Collins on this team on offense. The guy is 6'8ish and 230lbs with a 33inch vertical but he plays like he's 7'0 250lb with a 43.5+inch vertical (yeah those are DA's stats). Ayton will always have the rebounding and defense advantage over Collins but offensively, he's kind of like a a PF/C version of Kelly Oubre, he's not super refined but he just brings so much energy, dynamism and straight up nasty.
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Lebron - Zion, Barrett like Melo, wade like Culver, garland like tj ford, hunter like bosh, white like Barbosa, Clarke like David West. I think this draft is actually going to be deeper though
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Re: Deandre Ayton year 3, the next step 

Post#296 » by alamin330 » Tue Jan 12, 2021 9:44 pm

sunsbg wrote:Ayton's confidence on offense is broken, that's clear. He's not a good fit for 0.5s offense, Booker is not, CP3 is not. Monty better prepare some set plays for those three. Opportunities for Mikal and Jae to shoot 3s will always be there. Then with the second unit run-and-gun as much as you like. Changing the pace will only confuse opponents.

DA used to be automatic from midrange in rookie year, now he struggles there as well. Having a reliable weapon gives you confidence. They can draw some plays to open him for those shots. Murray set screens for Jokic on several occasions in the Nuggets game. There was a play where Booker did the same for Ayton, but it didn't go well. Need to practice it more, obviously. Then in addition of a PnR, there is a PnP, but it's never used. They should find a way to reward him on the court for doing mostly the dirty work. Nobody will be happy at their work under such conditions, doesn't matter if it's basketball or whatever.

Wow!!! The first person who gets it
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Re: Deandre Ayton year 3, the next step 

Post#297 » by alamin330 » Tue Jan 12, 2021 9:48 pm

lilfishi22 wrote:
Frank Lee wrote:I think you have to start considering he will be an expensive piece to keep. And he likely won’t be that much better over the next 2-3 yrs. Id keep an eye on Collins and hope he continues to grumble. Would rather pay him 20 mil than DA 15.

If DA’s numbskull level of play does not change, I don’t know how he wouldn’t at least be a possible trade chip. He’s fifth on my list of youngsters to ink and keep and call a core. Once that bad apple gets out of my barrel, I won’t look back.

I value DA's PnR and general defense a lot but I can't help but imagine a guy like Collins on this team on offense. The guy is 6'8ish and 230lbs with a 33inch vertical but he plays like he's 7'0 250lb with a 43.5+inch vertical (yeah those are DA's stats). Ayton will always have the rebounding and defense advantage over Collins but offensively, he's kind of like a a PF/C version of Kelly Oubre, he's not super refined but he just brings so much energy, dynamism and straight up nasty.

Collins would be depressed on the suns. Chris Paul isn’t throwing lobs anymore. He’s retired that part of his game
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Re: Deandre Ayton year 3, the next step 

Post#298 » by bwgood77 » Tue Jan 12, 2021 9:51 pm

I don't understand why Paul is not throwing many lobs and throws it so low to Ayton.
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Re: Deandre Ayton year 3, the next step 

Post#299 » by lilfishi22 » Tue Jan 12, 2021 9:57 pm

Ayton was never a great lob threat. Rubio and Booker did their best but it wasn't like Ayton is a Lob City threat even when he was dunking it more last year. This year he's been a complete on-threat

Saberstar put it absolutely perfectly and while I've heard others say he's scared, that's sounds a little more rhetorical than he is "not fearless" even though they mean the same thing.

Saberestar wrote:He is not fearless, and that's why he doesn't like to go at full speed or strongly in traffic. That's why we usually puts a blind screen for him after he makes a P&R because he needs space to grab the ball and finish around the rim. He needs to catch the ball on a cleared space
alamin330 wrote:This draft reminds me of the 2003 draft.
Lebron - Zion, Barrett like Melo, wade like Culver, garland like tj ford, hunter like bosh, white like Barbosa, Clarke like David West. I think this draft is actually going to be deeper though
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Re: Deandre Ayton year 3, the next step 

Post#300 » by alamin330 » Tue Jan 12, 2021 9:57 pm

bwgood77 wrote:I don't understand why Paul is not throwing many lobs and throws it so low to Ayton.

If I had to guess I would guess Monty. I think Monty is the answer to a lot of these questions. He’s a really stubborn guy

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