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Deandre Ayton year 3, the next step

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Re: Deandre Ayton year 3, the next step 

Post#301 » by alamin330 » Tue Jan 12, 2021 10:07 pm

lilfishi22 wrote:Ayton was never a great lob threat. Rubio and Booker did their best but it wasn't like Ayton is a Lob City threat even when he was dunking it more last year. This year he's been a complete on-threat

Saberstar put it absolutely perfectly and while I've heard others say he's scared, that's sounds a little more rhetorical than he is "not fearless" even though they mean the same thing.

Saberestar wrote:He is not fearless, and that's why he doesn't like to go at full speed or strongly in traffic. That's why we usually puts a blind screen for him after he makes a P&R because he needs space to grab the ball and finish around the rim. He needs to catch the ball on a cleared space

You guys are really hard on a 22 year old big man who has to be coached by Monty Williams. Does he do anything right? He passes to your beloved Cam and Bridges non-stop at the expense of his own progress.
How many times on here do I read big men take longer to develop. If Smith is bad are we going to give him the same amount of heat? Yea DA was the 1st pick but it doesn’t matter anymore. He’s on the team and we need to maximize his potential. His potential is a 20+ Ppg 12+ rpg and at least 1 bpg. Right now Monty is minimizing his potential and it shows. He is losing confidence and it’s starting to show on the defensive end now as well. Ayton wasn’t drafted to do what he is being asked to do. He never played on a team where he doesn’t get the ball to score. We don’t need cam Johnson and mikal shooting 10 3s a game a piece while DA is only take 8-10 shots overall. Not how you maximize your assets
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Re: Deandre Ayton year 3, the next step 

Post#302 » by bwgood77 » Tue Jan 12, 2021 10:15 pm

lilfishi22 wrote:Ayton was never a great lob threat. Rubio and Booker did their best but it wasn't like Ayton is a Lob City threat even when he was dunking it more last year. This year he's been a complete on-threat

Saberstar put it absolutely perfectly and while I've heard others say he's scared, that's sounds a little more rhetorical than he is "not fearless" even though they mean the same thing.

Saberestar wrote:He is not fearless, and that's why he doesn't like to go at full speed or strongly in traffic. That's why we usually puts a blind screen for him after he makes a P&R because he needs space to grab the ball and finish around the rim. He needs to catch the ball on a cleared space


But for the most part, even Rubio fans told us Rubio wasn't a great lob passer but was more of a bounce passer (which often worked well with Ayton too) and Paul simply hasn't thrown him many lobs. Booker has always thrown terrible lobs outside of a few. Oddly enough, Josh Jackson was one of the better ones at giving him lobs..Mikal has done a few too over time.

But Ayton could be a lob threat. Rubio throws him a lob here, for example. This is a clip where they were giving Ayton a lot of good looks. You could tell he had worked himself into shape too since it was a ways into the season.

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Re: Deandre Ayton year 3, the next step 

Post#303 » by lilfishi22 » Tue Jan 12, 2021 10:44 pm

bwgood77 wrote:
lilfishi22 wrote:Ayton was never a great lob threat. Rubio and Booker did their best but it wasn't like Ayton is a Lob City threat even when he was dunking it more last year. This year he's been a complete on-threat

Saberstar put it absolutely perfectly and while I've heard others say he's scared, that's sounds a little more rhetorical than he is "not fearless" even though they mean the same thing.

Saberestar wrote:He is not fearless, and that's why he doesn't like to go at full speed or strongly in traffic. That's why we usually puts a blind screen for him after he makes a P&R because he needs space to grab the ball and finish around the rim. He needs to catch the ball on a cleared space


But for the most part, even Rubio fans told us Rubio wasn't a great lob passer but was more of a bounce passer (which often worked well with Ayton too) and Paul simply hasn't thrown him many lobs. Booker has always thrown terrible lobs outside of a few. Oddly enough, Josh Jackson was one of the better ones at giving him lobs..Mikal has done a few too over time.

But Ayton could be a lob threat. Rubio throws him a lob here, for example. This is a clip where they were giving Ayton a lot of good looks. You could tell he had worked himself into shape too since it was a ways into the season.


It's a matter of trust. When you lob it up to DeAndre Jordan, you know he's catching the ball at its peak and dumping it straight down in the basket. When you lob it to Deandre Ayton, it's not guaranteed he's going to dunk it straight in. He may bring it down waist height, hesi for a second and then go up. One is either a trip the FT line or damn near 100FG% and the other is either a strip or 50/50 lay-in/dunk.


Watch a true lob threat go to work. You can see DAJ very very rarely brings it back down. When he's going up and when CP3 sees him going up, both guys now they will connect at the apex of the lob and DAJ is going to put it away. Compare it to Ayton, we'd often see him catch the lob (not alleyoop it in), bring it down and then figure out what to do with it after. There's no hesitation with DAJ, there's no fear if there is someone is in front of him and there's no hesitation from CP3 either because he knows DAJ knows how to take care of the ball by not giving any defender an opportunity to swipe at the ball.

Another thing I see very often with Ayton is after he sets the screen for the PnR, when he rolls he's not rolling like he's ramping up for a lob but rather his body is actually facing the ball-handler while trying to get position for a post up possession. The other thing I see so often is after he screens and rolls, he's half stepping towards the basket with a defender right in front of him, obviously slowing him down and creating an impediment for a dunk. When we see other lob threats, they try really hard to get themselves free from their defender and available to the passer on the roll.
alamin330 wrote:This draft reminds me of the 2003 draft.
Lebron - Zion, Barrett like Melo, wade like Culver, garland like tj ford, hunter like bosh, white like Barbosa, Clarke like David West. I think this draft is actually going to be deeper though
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Re: Deandre Ayton year 3, the next step 

Post#304 » by Frank Lee » Tue Jan 12, 2021 10:54 pm

You mean he doesn’t know how to play basketball ...
What ? Me Worry ?
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Re: Deandre Ayton year 3, the next step 

Post#305 » by lilfishi22 » Tue Jan 12, 2021 10:59 pm

Frank Lee wrote:You mean he doesn’t know how to play basketball ...

Wouldn't go that far. He defends well and he has nice touch around the rim but he doesn't know how to be a consistent lob threat
alamin330 wrote:This draft reminds me of the 2003 draft.
Lebron - Zion, Barrett like Melo, wade like Culver, garland like tj ford, hunter like bosh, white like Barbosa, Clarke like David West. I think this draft is actually going to be deeper though
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Re: Deandre Ayton year 3, the next step 

Post#306 » by cberry78 » Tue Jan 12, 2021 11:26 pm

Frank Lee wrote:You mean he doesn’t know how to play basketball ...

He doesn't know how to play offense......yet...hopefully? On the other side of the ball he's heading towards the Great on D side of things, but still has work to do there as well.
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Re: Deandre Ayton year 3, the next step 

Post#307 » by bwgood77 » Tue Jan 12, 2021 11:28 pm

Spoiler:
lilfishi22 wrote:
bwgood77 wrote:
lilfishi22 wrote:Ayton was never a great lob threat. Rubio and Booker did their best but it wasn't like Ayton is a Lob City threat even when he was dunking it more last year. This year he's been a complete on-threat

Saberstar put it absolutely perfectly and while I've heard others say he's scared, that's sounds a little more rhetorical than he is "not fearless" even though they mean the same thing.



But for the most part, even Rubio fans told us Rubio wasn't a great lob passer but was more of a bounce passer (which often worked well with Ayton too) and Paul simply hasn't thrown him many lobs. Booker has always thrown terrible lobs outside of a few. Oddly enough, Josh Jackson was one of the better ones at giving him lobs..Mikal has done a few too over time.

But Ayton could be a lob threat. Rubio throws him a lob here, for example. This is a clip where they were giving Ayton a lot of good looks. You could tell he had worked himself into shape too since it was a ways into the season.


It's a matter of trust. When you lob it up to DeAndre Jordan, you know he's catching the ball at its peak and dumping it straight down in the basket. When you lob it to Deandre Ayton, it's not guaranteed he's going to dunk it straight in. He may bring it down waist height, hesi for a second and then go up. One is either a trip the FT line or damn near 100FG% and the other is either a strip or 50/50 lay-in/dunk.


Watch a true lob threat go to work. You can see DAJ very very rarely brings it back down. When he's going up and when CP3 sees him going up, both guys now they will connect at the apex of the lob and DAJ is going to put it away. Compare it to Ayton, we'd often see him catch the lob (not alleyoop it in), bring it down and then figure out what to do with it after. There's no hesitation with DAJ, there's no fear if there is someone is in front of him and there's no hesitation from CP3 either because he knows DAJ knows how to take care of the ball by not giving any defender an opportunity to swipe at the ball.

Another thing I see very often with Ayton is after he sets the screen for the PnR, when he rolls he's not rolling like he's ramping up for a lob but rather his body is actually facing the ball-handler while trying to get position for a post up possession. The other thing I see so often is after he screens and rolls, he's half stepping towards the basket with a defender right in front of him, obviously slowing him down and creating an impediment for a dunk. When we see other lob threats, they try really hard to get themselves free from their defender and available to the passer on the roll.


Ayton has zero problem dunking it if it's a good lob right near the rim. He just hasn't gotten many of those lately. Jordan only had like 90 something dunks his second year..like a little over 1 per game..Ayton had over 2 per game. Jordan got better with it in his third year, getting closer to 2 dunks a game..in his fourth year he finally got over 2 dunks per game but only finished them at 82%.

Anyway, you're also talking when that was prime Paul and that's what he was doing..throwing a lot of lobs. He is simply not doing that right now. Not sure what to tell you. If you are watching you are simply not seeing many good lobs thrown and not really many at all. He will almost always dunk a good lob. I've been watching him do it for 3+ years.

Now putting it on the floor and drawing fouls..the other stuff you mention, I admit he doesn't do much, but he can certainly finishes good lobs with a dunk almost always when he has the chance. It just hasn't been there.

A large part of it is the slow pace...you're just not going to have nearly as many lob opportunities if you are not running and always slowing down for half court sets. I didn't watch much of lob city that I remember but it does seem like they ran a little more.
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Re: Deandre Ayton year 3, the next step 

Post#308 » by alamin330 » Tue Jan 12, 2021 11:31 pm

lilfishi22 wrote:
bwgood77 wrote:
lilfishi22 wrote:Ayton was never a great lob threat. Rubio and Booker did their best but it wasn't like Ayton is a Lob City threat even when he was dunking it more last year. This year he's been a complete on-threat

Saberstar put it absolutely perfectly and while I've heard others say he's scared, that's sounds a little more rhetorical than he is "not fearless" even though they mean the same thing.



But for the most part, even Rubio fans told us Rubio wasn't a great lob passer but was more of a bounce passer (which often worked well with Ayton too) and Paul simply hasn't thrown him many lobs. Booker has always thrown terrible lobs outside of a few. Oddly enough, Josh Jackson was one of the better ones at giving him lobs..Mikal has done a few too over time.

But Ayton could be a lob threat. Rubio throws him a lob here, for example. This is a clip where they were giving Ayton a lot of good looks. You could tell he had worked himself into shape too since it was a ways into the season.


It's a matter of trust. When you lob it up to DeAndre Jordan, you know he's catching the ball at its peak and dumping it straight down in the basket. When you lob it to Deandre Ayton, it's not guaranteed he's going to dunk it straight in. He may bring it down waist height, hesi for a second and then go up. One is either a trip the FT line or damn near 100FG% and the other is either a strip or 50/50 lay-in/dunk.


Watch a true lob threat go to work. You can see DAJ very very rarely brings it back down. When he's going up and when CP3 sees him going up, both guys now they will connect at the apex of the lob and DAJ is going to put it away. Compare it to Ayton, we'd often see him catch the lob (not alleyoop it in), bring it down and then figure out what to do with it after. There's no hesitation with DAJ, there's no fear if there is someone is in front of him and there's no hesitation from CP3 either because he knows DAJ knows how to take care of the ball by not giving any defender an opportunity to swipe at the ball.

[b]Another thing I see very often with Ayton is after he sets the screen for the PnR, when he rolls he's not rolling like he's ramping up for a lob but rather his body is actually facing the ball-handler while trying to get position for a post up possession. The other thing I see so often is after he screens and rolls, he's half stepping towards the basket with a defender right in front of him, obviously slowing him down and creating an impediment for a dunk.[/b] When we see other lob threats, they try really hard to get themselves free from their defender and available to the passer on the roll.

Do you think maybe it’s because he knows he’s not getting the ball?
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Re: Deandre Ayton year 3, the next step 

Post#309 » by bwgood77 » Tue Jan 12, 2021 11:31 pm

cberry78 wrote:He doesn't know how to play offense......yet...hopefully? On the other side of the ball he's heading towards the Great on D side of things, but still has work to do there as well.


How did he score over 18 ppg in his second year, more than most any big in recent memory? Is he a self creator? Not really...he can a little bit, but he's better in an open court running game...when things clog up, he's going to make the right play against 2 defenders and pass to the open man, just like Barkley did.
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Re: Deandre Ayton year 3, the next step 

Post#310 » by cberry78 » Tue Jan 12, 2021 11:43 pm

bwgood77 wrote:
cberry78 wrote:He doesn't know how to play offense......yet...hopefully? On the other side of the ball he's heading towards the Great on D side of things, but still has work to do there as well.


How did he score over 18 ppg in his second year, more than most any big in recent memory? Is he a self creator? Not really...he can a little bit, but he's better in an open court running game...when things clog up, he's going to make the right play against 2 defenders and pass to the open man, just like Barkley did.

First off, I'm pro DA, but I honestly think that his #'s from last year are probably the result of being the 2nd best player on the team behind Booker. And his #'s this year are down just like Bookers for the same reasons - they have so much more of a supporting cast around them this year than last year....our 11th man this year started 9 games in the playoffs 2 years ago. We're just a bit deeper this year.

I still have faith in DA, I'm sure he'll put it all together, eventually. I get the feeling that he's spent so much time focusing on the defensive side of things that that has caused his regression on offense...combined with the shortened offseason and lack of time gelling with a new PG. (You can see the same issues between Booker and CP3 as well....something's not quite right there on the court to my eyes).
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Re: Deandre Ayton year 3, the next step 

Post#311 » by lilfishi22 » Wed Jan 13, 2021 12:00 am

bwgood77 wrote:
Spoiler:
lilfishi22 wrote:
bwgood77 wrote:
But for the most part, even Rubio fans told us Rubio wasn't a great lob passer but was more of a bounce passer (which often worked well with Ayton too) and Paul simply hasn't thrown him many lobs. Booker has always thrown terrible lobs outside of a few. Oddly enough, Josh Jackson was one of the better ones at giving him lobs..Mikal has done a few too over time.

But Ayton could be a lob threat. Rubio throws him a lob here, for example. This is a clip where they were giving Ayton a lot of good looks. You could tell he had worked himself into shape too since it was a ways into the season.


It's a matter of trust. When you lob it up to DeAndre Jordan, you know he's catching the ball at its peak and dumping it straight down in the basket. When you lob it to Deandre Ayton, it's not guaranteed he's going to dunk it straight in. He may bring it down waist height, hesi for a second and then go up. One is either a trip the FT line or damn near 100FG% and the other is either a strip or 50/50 lay-in/dunk.


Watch a true lob threat go to work. You can see DAJ very very rarely brings it back down. When he's going up and when CP3 sees him going up, both guys now they will connect at the apex of the lob and DAJ is going to put it away. Compare it to Ayton, we'd often see him catch the lob (not alleyoop it in), bring it down and then figure out what to do with it after. There's no hesitation with DAJ, there's no fear if there is someone is in front of him and there's no hesitation from CP3 either because he knows DAJ knows how to take care of the ball by not giving any defender an opportunity to swipe at the ball.

Another thing I see very often with Ayton is after he sets the screen for the PnR, when he rolls he's not rolling like he's ramping up for a lob but rather his body is actually facing the ball-handler while trying to get position for a post up possession. The other thing I see so often is after he screens and rolls, he's half stepping towards the basket with a defender right in front of him, obviously slowing him down and creating an impediment for a dunk. When we see other lob threats, they try really hard to get themselves free from their defender and available to the passer on the roll.


Ayton has zero problem dunking it if it's a good lob right near the rim. He just hasn't gotten many of those lately. Jordan only had like 90 something dunks his second year..like a little over 1 per game..Ayton had over 2 per game. Jordan got better with it in his third year, getting closer to 2 dunks a game..in his fourth year he finally got over 2 dunks per game but only finished them at 82%.

Anyway, you're also talking when that was prime Paul and that's what he was doing..throwing a lot of lobs. He is simply not doing that right now. Not sure what to tell you. If you are watching you are simply not seeing many good lobs thrown and not really many at all. He will almost always dunk a good lob. I've been watching him do it for 3+ years.

Now putting it on the floor and drawing fouls..the other stuff you mention, I admit he doesn't do much, but he can certainly finishes good lobs with a dunk almost always when he has the chance. It just hasn't been there.

A large part of it is the slow pace...you're just not going to have nearly as many lob opportunities if you are not running and always slowing down for half court sets. I didn't watch much of lob city that I remember but it does seem like they ran a little more.

He doesn't get the ball because he's rarely if ever in position to get the ball and do anything with it. You lob it to him near the rim and he catches it, brings it down and either he passes it out, gets stripped or occasionally he's able to lay it in but rarely is it automatic like true lob threats. He just rarely makes himself available for any kind of lob dunks. If anything, he takes those lobs as a high pass to go into a faux low post offense and of course, he passes it back out. The alleyoop is a two man game (duh) but when one guy rarely gets himself open or rolls hard for a dunk, why would anyone throw him the ball in traffic and risk getting the ball stripped

As I said, it's a two man game and the other guy needs to take responsibility for slowing the game down to a crawl and limiting the free flow offense which opens up lob attempts. So I'm not putting it all on him Ayton but this is the Ayton thread and he's responsible for making himself available for lobs if he wants to get them.
alamin330 wrote:This draft reminds me of the 2003 draft.
Lebron - Zion, Barrett like Melo, wade like Culver, garland like tj ford, hunter like bosh, white like Barbosa, Clarke like David West. I think this draft is actually going to be deeper though
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Re: Deandre Ayton year 3, the next step 

Post#312 » by bwgood77 » Wed Jan 13, 2021 12:04 am

cberry78 wrote:
bwgood77 wrote:
cberry78 wrote:He doesn't know how to play offense......yet...hopefully? On the other side of the ball he's heading towards the Great on D side of things, but still has work to do there as well.


How did he score over 18 ppg in his second year, more than most any big in recent memory? Is he a self creator? Not really...he can a little bit, but he's better in an open court running game...when things clog up, he's going to make the right play against 2 defenders and pass to the open man, just like Barkley did.

First off, I'm pro DA, but I honestly think that his #'s from last year are probably the result of being the 2nd best player on the team behind Booker. And his #'s this year are down just like Bookers for the same reasons - they have so much more of a supporting cast around them this year than last year....our 11th man this year started 9 games in the playoffs 2 years ago. We're just a bit deeper this year.

I still have faith in DA, I'm sure he'll put it all together, eventually. I get the feeling that he's spent so much time focusing on the defensive side of things that that has caused his regression on offense...combined with the shortened offseason and lack of time gelling with a new PG. (You can see the same issues between Booker and CP3 as well....something's not quite right there on the court to my eyes).


Well, like I've said for a long time, I've never been that concerned with his offense. Could he do some things better? Yes. I was always more concerned with his defense, not being lost, overthinking things (which I think is also impacting his offense this year with a new PG because they are telling him so much) and then being engaged all the time.

Even though his defense isn't great, I still think he has come way more than I expected, he is among the league leaders in rebounding (3rd), which is important after years of being outrebounded badly in games (and this doesn't mean he doesn't have the occasional poor rebounding game, but obviously others must as well if he's 3rd in rebounding).

His offense has been up and down but he's also played with at least 3 different PGs...I honestly can't even really remember who was the main PG 2 years ago at this point.

If they set up the offense to cater to his strengths, he'd look really good, but they are not doing that. Last year the pace along with the open floor allowed him to take advantage when only one defender was in there and finish a lot of lobs and passes inside.

But most people care like 90% about offense so that is what they will focus on. And despite his defensive improvement, he's not going to be a premier defender overnight and the whole starting unit gives up more points than they score, so all their defensive ratings and net ratings look bad, especially if they rarely play with the bench, who regularly outscores their opponents.

I think part of it is conditioning too...which will get better. He looked quite a bit leaner last year...so he hopefully sheds some of that fat the next month or so. Hopefully he isn't out for COVID protocol or injury which will hurt his conditioning even more...even though there are probably people hoping he doesn't play.
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Re: Deandre Ayton year 3, the next step 

Post#313 » by bwgood77 » Wed Jan 13, 2021 12:06 am

lilfishi22 wrote:
bwgood77 wrote:
Spoiler:
lilfishi22 wrote:It's a matter of trust. When you lob it up to DeAndre Jordan, you know he's catching the ball at its peak and dumping it straight down in the basket. When you lob it to Deandre Ayton, it's not guaranteed he's going to dunk it straight in. He may bring it down waist height, hesi for a second and then go up. One is either a trip the FT line or damn near 100FG% and the other is either a strip or 50/50 lay-in/dunk.


Watch a true lob threat go to work. You can see DAJ very very rarely brings it back down. When he's going up and when CP3 sees him going up, both guys now they will connect at the apex of the lob and DAJ is going to put it away. Compare it to Ayton, we'd often see him catch the lob (not alleyoop it in), bring it down and then figure out what to do with it after. There's no hesitation with DAJ, there's no fear if there is someone is in front of him and there's no hesitation from CP3 either because he knows DAJ knows how to take care of the ball by not giving any defender an opportunity to swipe at the ball.

Another thing I see very often with Ayton is after he sets the screen for the PnR, when he rolls he's not rolling like he's ramping up for a lob but rather his body is actually facing the ball-handler while trying to get position for a post up possession. The other thing I see so often is after he screens and rolls, he's half stepping towards the basket with a defender right in front of him, obviously slowing him down and creating an impediment for a dunk. When we see other lob threats, they try really hard to get themselves free from their defender and available to the passer on the roll.


Ayton has zero problem dunking it if it's a good lob right near the rim. He just hasn't gotten many of those lately. Jordan only had like 90 something dunks his second year..like a little over 1 per game..Ayton had over 2 per game. Jordan got better with it in his third year, getting closer to 2 dunks a game..in his fourth year he finally got over 2 dunks per game but only finished them at 82%.

Anyway, you're also talking when that was prime Paul and that's what he was doing..throwing a lot of lobs. He is simply not doing that right now. Not sure what to tell you. If you are watching you are simply not seeing many good lobs thrown and not really many at all. He will almost always dunk a good lob. I've been watching him do it for 3+ years.

Now putting it on the floor and drawing fouls..the other stuff you mention, I admit he doesn't do much, but he can certainly finishes good lobs with a dunk almost always when he has the chance. It just hasn't been there.

A large part of it is the slow pace...you're just not going to have nearly as many lob opportunities if you are not running and always slowing down for half court sets. I didn't watch much of lob city that I remember but it does seem like they ran a little more.

He doesn't get the ball because he's rarely if ever in position to get the ball and do anything with it. You lob it to him near the rim and he catches it, brings it down and either he passes it out, gets stripped or occasionally he's able to lay it in but rarely is it automatic like true lob threats. He just rarely makes himself available for any kind of lob dunks. If anything, he takes those lobs as a high pass to go into a faux low post offense and of course, he passes it back out. The alleyoop is a two man game (duh) but when one guy rarely gets himself open or rolls hard for a dunk, why would anyone throw him the ball in traffic and risk getting the ball stripped

As I said, it's a two man game and the other guy needs to take responsibility for slowing the game down to a crawl and limiting the free flow offense which opens up lob attempts. So I'm not putting it all on him Ayton but this is the Ayton thread and he's responsible for making himself available for lobs if he wants to get them.


I guess we define lob differently. I think of a lob where you need to basically jump going towards the rim to throw it down. Those passes you describe are just passes inside.

Anyway, no need to discuss if you think he can't finish lobs.
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Re: Deandre Ayton year 3, the next step 

Post#314 » by bwgood77 » Wed Jan 13, 2021 12:24 am

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Re: Deandre Ayton year 3, the next step 

Post#315 » by bigfoot » Wed Jan 13, 2021 12:57 am

bwgood77 wrote:
cberry78 wrote:
bwgood77 wrote:
How did he score over 18 ppg in his second year, more than most any big in recent memory? Is he a self creator? Not really...he can a little bit, but he's better in an open court running game...when things clog up, he's going to make the right play against 2 defenders and pass to the open man, just like Barkley did.

First off, I'm pro DA, but I honestly think that his #'s from last year are probably the result of being the 2nd best player on the team behind Booker. And his #'s this year are down just like Bookers for the same reasons - they have so much more of a supporting cast around them this year than last year....our 11th man this year started 9 games in the playoffs 2 years ago. We're just a bit deeper this year.

I still have faith in DA, I'm sure he'll put it all together, eventually. I get the feeling that he's spent so much time focusing on the defensive side of things that that has caused his regression on offense...combined with the shortened offseason and lack of time gelling with a new PG. (You can see the same issues between Booker and CP3 as well....something's not quite right there on the court to my eyes).


Well, like I've said for a long time, I've never been that concerned with his offense. Could he do some things better? Yes. I was always more concerned with his defense, not being lost, overthinking things (which I think is also impacting his offense this year with a new PG because they are telling him so much) and then being engaged all the time.

Even though his defense isn't great, I still think he has come way more than I expected, he is among the league leaders in rebounding (3rd), which is important after years of being outrebounded badly in games (and this doesn't mean he doesn't have the occasional poor rebounding game, but obviously others must as well if he's 3rd in rebounding).

His offense has been up and down but he's also played with at least 3 different PGs...I honestly can't even really remember who was the main PG 2 years ago at this point.

If they set up the offense to cater to his strengths, he'd look really good, but they are not doing that. Last year the pace along with the open floor allowed him to take advantage when only one defender was in there and finish a lot of lobs and passes inside.

But most people care like 90% about offense so that is what they will focus on. And despite his defensive improvement, he's not going to be a premier defender overnight and the whole starting unit gives up more points than they score, so all their defensive ratings and net ratings look bad, especially if they rarely play with the bench, who regularly outscores their opponents.

I think part of it is conditioning too...which will get better. He looked quite a bit leaner last year...so he hopefully sheds some of that fat the next month or so. Hopefully he isn't out for COVID protocol or injury which will hurt his conditioning even more...even though there are probably people hoping he doesn't play.


So are we going to give him a conditioning pass every season? He was out of shape in the bubble and his game suffered there too. He's being paid to be a professional athlete!!! Being in condition from day 1 is part of the job. I do not want to be hoping he can get into shape within the next month when 15% of the season is already gone. Now you are talking about 1/3 of the season to get prime Ayton??? Sadly, we have a lazy center on our hands.
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Re: Deandre Ayton year 3, the next step 

Post#316 » by bwgood77 » Wed Jan 13, 2021 1:12 am

bigfoot wrote:So are we going to give him a conditioning pass every season? He was out of shape in the bubble and his game suffered there too. He's being paid to be a professional athlete!!! Being in condition from day 1 is part of the job. I do not want to be hoping he can get into shape within the next month when 15% of the season is already gone. Now you are talking about 1/3 of the season to get prime Ayton??? Sadly, we have a lazy center on our hands.


I think when you have to quarantine it is hard to stay in basketball shape, particularly when you have such a big body like that. They way you run, start/stop, etc on a basketball court and being able to practice with teammates and have a longer training camp hurts. Quarantining from mid March to end of July was a long time to be at home. Then again from mid August to mid December another long stretch.

It's very rare this happens and it's not that easy to stay in shape. Those with more professional experience probably have better ways to do it and then there are those who are generally thin.

I mean he's not like Harden out of shape...and he's not taking load management games like so many are, but he looks a bit winded at times and that he's carrying a few extra lbs....which is understandable with 8 months off in a year which never happens in the NBA...it's usually 5 1/2 or so if you don't make the playoffs...but people will work out with other people, trainers or play in games with others, etc in normal offseasons.

It's not extreme..and his minutes are not really down that much, but I think for a lot of players and teams it is taking them longer to get their bodies back into basketball type shape.

I think it happens to some extent every year but typically it's more worked out in training camp and the preseason.
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Re: Deandre Ayton year 3, the next step 

Post#317 » by itlnsunsfan » Wed Jan 13, 2021 6:18 am

alamin330 wrote:
lilfishi22 wrote:Ayton was never a great lob threat. Rubio and Booker did their best but it wasn't like Ayton is a Lob City threat even when he was dunking it more last year. This year he's been a complete on-threat

Saberstar put it absolutely perfectly and while I've heard others say he's scared, that's sounds a little more rhetorical than he is "not fearless" even though they mean the same thing.

Saberestar wrote:He is not fearless, and that's why he doesn't like to go at full speed or strongly in traffic. That's why we usually puts a blind screen for him after he makes a P&R because he needs space to grab the ball and finish around the rim. He needs to catch the ball on a cleared space

You guys are really hard on a 22 year old big man who has to be coached by Monty Williams. Does he do anything right? He passes to your beloved Cam and Bridges non-stop at the expense of his own progress.
How many times on here do I read big men take longer to develop. If Smith is bad are we going to give him the same amount of heat? Yea DA was the 1st pick but it doesn’t matter anymore. He’s on the team and we need to maximize his potential. His potential is a 20+ Ppg 12+ rpg and at least 1 bpg. Right now Monty is minimizing his potential and it shows. He is losing confidence and it’s starting to show on the defensive end now as well. Ayton wasn’t drafted to do what he is being asked to do. He never played on a team where he doesn’t get the ball to score. We don’t need cam Johnson and mikal shooting 10 3s a game a piece while DA is only take 8-10 shots overall. Not how you maximize your assets


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Re: Deandre Ayton year 3, the next step 

Post#318 » by Revived » Wed Jan 13, 2021 9:14 am

The whole “big men take longer to develop” thing doesn’t really work when guys like Embiid and Towns production at Ayton’s same age is still better.

Ayton must lead the league in pointless stats. He’s probably #1 at some crazy stat like “most dunks in nba history between the 10 min and 5 min mark of the 3rd qtr” or something like that too.

I just logged in on twitter and holy hell Suns twitter is at each other’s necks about Ayton. He’s probably the most polarizing Suns player we’ve had since maybe Brandon Knight who often had a large group defending his play and then another group bashing it lol.
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Re: Deandre Ayton year 3, the next step 

Post#319 » by Revived » Wed Jan 13, 2021 9:23 am

Read on Twitter


You know it’s bad when freaking Gambo has to comment on it lmao. There’s many of us who strongly believe that Gambo has no credibility (he of course made up BS stories about Doncic predraft to make sure Suns take Ayton) so wonder if anyone’s stance changes after seeing Gambo’s position.

Read on Twitter


Read on Twitter


For anyone on twitter, sreekar is a must follow. Guy is one of the funniest on there and tweets heavily about Suns and everything else.
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Re: Deandre Ayton year 3, the next step 

Post#320 » by Bogyo » Wed Jan 13, 2021 10:21 am

You just have to KNOW that you are flat out wrong when you have the same opinion as Gambo. :D
And yes, the Ayton defenders looking more and more like the Brandon Knight defenders used to back in the day... sad thing is, there is really no use in arguing with them, just as there is no use arguing with the pizza gate believers...

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