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Deandre Ayton year 3, the next step

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Re: Deandre Ayton year 3, the next step 

Post#341 » by Jdiddy701 » Thu Jan 14, 2021 6:15 am

bwgood77 wrote:
Jdiddy701 wrote:
bwgood77 wrote:I was looking at his game logs from last year after all these posts blaming him for not being further enough along by now, because it just doesn't add all up.

He had so many 20-25 pt games with 12-21 rebounds last year, especially if you look at his logs from like Jan 16th through the end of Feb. https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/a/aytonde01/gamelog/2020

I've gone back to watch his points, and highlights from a few.

Talking about him not getting lobs this year when open, or calling for the ball...look at how our offense looked to be running so much better, great lobs thrown to him, him dunking it like 5x here and just getting good looks and passes, and I think when he gets those looks it always sometimes energizes him even more with other things (though that goes for most players except maybe like Bridges and Carter)..

I really have barely seen any good lobs or passes to him this year where he is really in scoring position moving toward the basket. Yeah, we saw that low poor pass to him the other night from Paul, but if he just lobbed it up a little above the basket, Ayton will finish it like he does here.


I remember Ayton putting a stretch of good games during this time. It’s the best he’s played in his young career. I wouldn’t really look into what Rubio was doing different than CP3 though. CP3 has tried to look for Ayton multiple times, Ayton’s confidence is clearly not there. Honestly, every player has looked for Ayton, I feel like a lot are worried he will fumble the pass or end up passing back anyways.

It’s all on Ayton to look like that player in that video. In that game, he’s going against one of the worst teams in the league last year and up against smaller bigs. He does those same moves this season - jab step at the free throw line, fadeaway when he’s on the side of the rim, use his size vs smaller players, the dunks is what is needed from him that he’s not doing this season. There’s a handful of games where he looks really good.. unfortunately there’s a lot more games where he looks terrible. Not sure if he will ever be a consistent player and I feel that way because I don’t think he cares to. That’s the problem.


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That's one of about 15-20 videos that are similar from games last season where he put up 20-25 points and 12-20 boards.

I agree the confidence isn't there on offense, but I think it's because he overthinks things. This is EXACTLY what I saw on defense at AZ...he would kind of freeze, and I would watch closely trying to figure out what it was, because I knew he had the ability to do things I'd seen him do before. I think he has a lot of new voices in his head telling him what to do and it makes him a little more robotic sometimes or he just doesn't flow as much with the offense.

I know I defend him a lot but I was never really a huge fan coming into the draft...but I've watched him extensively. As weird as it may sound, I don't think it's him being lazy or not into it...I truly think he is overthinking things.

Have you ever heard the phrase "Paralysis by analysis"? I think some things are instinctual and other things are not. I never thought watching him in college that his help defense would become instinctual, but I have seen it a lot now, even though he still has lapses.

But I have for sure seen him be instinctual on all sorts of shots, spin moves, fadeaways, hook shots, rebounding put backs, lob dunks, etc.

I've even seen him dribble and drive from the free throw line and put it in a couple times this year. I think he's just adjusting.

The funny thing is I liked him less coming out of college because I wasn't sure he had certain things in him....I wasn't sure how hard he worked or if things could become instinctual, but I have seen him work hard and things I never expected to, become instinctual.

It's not that I don't see his weaknesses, and they are a little concerning, but not in a way to me to where I am not almost certainly sure he will fix the vast majority of them.

I think it does suck though that his year 2 and 3 had COVID derail both seasons (who knows how bad it will impact this season).

I do remember you mentioning those things during draft night about him. His entire career I feel like he freezes a lot, doesn’t matter if it’s offense or defense. This year, it’s really bad on offense. He’s looked the same way in the bubble under Rubio that he does now with CP3. It sucks. It’s frustrating when Ayton has those good games because you question why he doesn’t do it every night (of course players have off nights but he has too many). We all get pissed off when he has bad games because we know he can do better and has all the talent in the world to be one of the best bigs. As I’ve said in the past, he’s in the perfect situation, just frustrating how he’s looked his 3 years.. way too many bad moments.

If he ever gets any type of trade value, I’m 100% sure he’s getting traded. He’s not a James Jones type of guy. Ayton honestly has it so easy in Phoenix, why he can’t play well consistently I will never understand.


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Re: Deandre Ayton year 3, the next step 

Post#342 » by bwgood77 » Thu Jan 14, 2021 6:27 am

I think that obviously if they were offered some great deal like people throw around here like Towns or Collins and Okongwu or something, that they'd do it, particularly for Towns. But I don't see those being offered.

My guess is they want to coach him. It is weird that you get the feeling he doesn't work hard (I got it in college) but his coaches there, his coaches here, players, and everyone talks about how hard he works and how much he listens and is that sponge of information.

So if they really think he is coachable...and he is very humble and despite the suspension, doesn't really have any character issues or off the court problems...he isn't nearly the bust that his cohorts like Bamba, WCJ and maybe Bagley seem to be.

IF they think he works hard and his agent isn't trying to get a max or a big deal when that time comes, I am not sure they will be that eager to trade him...even taking his last year numbers and defense...players like that are not that easy to find. I mean it's unlikely you trade him for a C anyway, because both teams in a trade are typically looking to upgrade in an area (or actually moreso these days, one team is going young and another one competing) so I just don't know what to expect to get back. Unless you want some vet big like a Drummond or a Capela.
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Re: Deandre Ayton year 3, the next step 

Post#343 » by Revived » Thu Jan 14, 2021 6:57 am

I just listened to the James Jones interview from today and I really enjoyed it.

I was actually surprised by Jones honesty about Ayton’s play. He talked about how Ayton’s play has been uneven at best offensively and they want him scoring more in the paint (as opposed to that dumb Kobe jab step jumper) and getting to the FT line more than he does and playing tougher. Jones could’ve easily took the political route of just praising his own player with some nonsense about how efficient he is or whatever but I’m glad he sees the problem as well and is willing to talk about it publicly. He also gave Ayton credit for the excellent job he’s done with rebounding this season.

Ayton was definitely not a Jones pick imo so I do think if Ayton continues this lackluster play offensively, even his defense and rebounding won’t save him from getting shipped off. A straight up swap for Collins is about what makes most sense for both teams right now. Even while being shorter than Ayton, Collins plays a style of basketball that compliments what we need on those days when our 3s aren’t falling.

Here’s the James Jones link for anyone interested, it’s a good listen he talks about the games being cancelled as well.

https://omny.fm/shows/burns-gambo/james-jones-phoenix-suns-gm-3

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I guess James Jones has a history of being somewhat honest with the media, he said this last year

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Re: Deandre Ayton year 3, the next step 

Post#344 » by Revived » Thu Jan 14, 2021 7:08 am

Jdiddy701 wrote:
bwgood77 wrote:I was looking at his game logs from last year after all these posts blaming him for not being further enough along by now, because it just doesn't add all up.

He had so many 20-25 pt games with 12-21 rebounds last year, especially if you look at his logs from like Jan 16th through the end of Feb. https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/a/aytonde01/gamelog/2020

I've gone back to watch his points, and highlights from a few.

Talking about him not getting lobs this year when open, or calling for the ball...look at how our offense looked to be running so much better, great lobs thrown to him, him dunking it like 5x here and just getting good looks and passes, and I think when he gets those looks it always sometimes energizes him even more with other things (though that goes for most players except maybe like Bridges and Carter)..

I really have barely seen any good lobs or passes to him this year where he is really in scoring position moving toward the basket. Yeah, we saw that low poor pass to him the other night from Paul, but if he just lobbed it up a little above the basket, Ayton will finish it like he does here.


I remember Ayton putting a stretch of good games during this time. It’s the best he’s played in his young career. I wouldn’t really look into what Rubio was doing different than CP3 though. CP3 has tried to look for Ayton multiple times, Ayton’s confidence is clearly not there. Honestly, every player has looked for Ayton, I feel like a lot are worried he will fumble the pass or end up passing back anyways.

It’s all on Ayton to look like that player in that video. In that game, he’s going against one of the worst teams in the league last year and up against smaller bigs. He does those same moves this season - jab step at the free throw line, fadeaway when he’s on the side of the rim, use his size vs smaller players, the dunks is what is needed from him that he’s not doing this season. There’s a handful of games where he looks really good.. unfortunately there’s a lot more games where he looks terrible. Not sure if he will ever be a consistent player and I feel that way because I don’t think he cares to. That’s the problem.


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The jab step and the fadeaway and getting embarrassed by the likes of Robin Lopez and Mike Muscala all just show that he hates playing physical. He avoids contact whenever possible and even people that see him play rarely are recognizing it like the Pacers commentators who harped on it at least 3 times in our game against them.

I think this all comes back to Ayton not wanting to be a C. He’s talked about it himself how he considers himself a natural PF and when we got Baynes he even said something like “Oh yeah I’m super excited now I can go to my natural position of PF”. I think bwgood has mentioned it and I said it last season and his rookie season as well that he compares more to LMA than he does Shaq or Towns or Embiid.

He wants to be a PF so he doesn’t have to bang in the paint as much and can take mid range jumpers and live off that. LMA has churned out an All Star career just off doing that. And I’m not sure if Ayton can ever be as good a midrange shooter as LMA either, Ayton’s jumper is somewhat flat with low arch while LMA’s looked more pure. Thing is we’re expecting and we need someone who can be more than that. LMA, for example, hated contact as well and never went to the FT line as much as he should.

Bigs like those are being obsolete in terms of the “elite” bigs.

I do worry though if Ayton gets traded and goes to some other team and they use him as a PF with good defensive C alongside him, he’ll look a whole lot better than he did here in Phoenix.
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Re: Deandre Ayton year 3, the next step 

Post#345 » by sasquatchBob » Thu Jan 14, 2021 8:24 am

bwgood77 wrote:This probably isn't helping Ayton's confidence either...

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To be honest, the pump faking ghosts tweet is pretty funny :lol:
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Re: Deandre Ayton year 3, the next step 

Post#346 » by Bogyo » Thu Jan 14, 2021 8:47 am

So Jones sees the same things as we do, who criticize him for it. Imagine what he says behind closed doors. I have no doubt in my mind he will be traded if opportunity presents itself, and I'm OK with that. However I'm not OK with Jones getting "his guy" for Ayton - it will probably be like we give Ayton and 2FRP's for Robin Lopez.
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Re: Deandre Ayton year 3, the next step 

Post#347 » by sunsbg » Thu Jan 14, 2021 10:04 am

Imagine an ex pro bb player, who sees Ayton daily in practices as well, knowing less than posters on a message board. Already complaining about what they will get in a trade. :nonono:
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Re: Deandre Ayton year 3, the next step 

Post#348 » by bwgood77 » Thu Jan 14, 2021 4:45 pm

Revived wrote:I just listened to the James Jones interview from today and I really enjoyed it.

I was actually surprised by Jones honesty about Ayton’s play. He talked about how Ayton’s play has been uneven at best offensively and they want him scoring more in the paint (as opposed to that dumb Kobe jab step jumper) and getting to the FT line more than he does and playing tougher. Jones could’ve easily took the political route of just praising his own player with some nonsense about how efficient he is or whatever but I’m glad he sees the problem as well and is willing to talk about it publicly. He also gave Ayton credit for the excellent job he’s done with rebounding this season.

Ayton was definitely not a Jones pick imo so I do think if Ayton continues this lackluster play offensively, even his defense and rebounding won’t save him from getting shipped off. A straight up swap for Collins is about what makes most sense for both teams right now. Even while being shorter than Ayton, Collins plays a style of basketball that compliments what we need on those days when our 3s aren’t falling.

Here’s the James Jones link for anyone interested, it’s a good listen he talks about the games being cancelled as well.

https://omny.fm/shows/burns-gambo/james-jones-phoenix-suns-gm-3

Read on Twitter


I guess James Jones has a history of being somewhat honest with the media, he said this last year

Read on Twitter


Yeah, I listed to the interview and he didn't have much good to say about any of the starters except Bridges, but also mentioned he has had up games (where we play well) and down plays where we don't.

Obviously all players are uneven.

I think Jones was on board with Ayton. They wanted a big and I'm glad it was him over the others. I know Sarver was enamored with Doncic..not sure about Jones, though he went to see him too...but I know he had input on the decision.

Collins isn't really a C, though, is worse on defense and assists, and better on offense (scoring).

Collins also wants a max. I don't think I'd give him that.

I can see why people would want to trade Ayton for him, but all things considered and where they are in their careers, and wanting more defense and rebounding, along with a true C, I'm not sure I'd do it, even if he didn't want a max.

We can't really afford to pay someone a max while Paul is on the books anyway....then we'd have Bridges up the next summer.
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Re: Deandre Ayton year 3, the next step 

Post#349 » by YFZblu » Thu Jan 14, 2021 6:07 pm

Yes it's technically Ayton's third season, but in terms of total games played, he is essentially 1.5 seasons in. He also has quite a few new faces/talents to meld with this year. Of course, the long suspension was his own fault. And generally speaking first team all NBA type players don't make such costly mistakes.

There are certainly warning signs with Ayton himself - but ultimately this will be a test of Suns leadership, and their ability to make the most of the situation.
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Re: Deandre Ayton year 3, the next step 

Post#350 » by DRK » Mon Jan 18, 2021 2:23 am

A guy his size should be attacking the rim more, instead of taking stupid 8 foot jumpers.

If you want to take short jumpers, do it at the free throw line.

Its infuriating to see a player that is so quick, athletic and strong, not know how to utilise his strengths.
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Re: Deandre Ayton year 3, the next step 

Post#351 » by Saberestar » Tue Jan 19, 2021 11:36 am

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Re: Deandre Ayton year 3, the next step 

Post#352 » by sunskerr » Tue Jan 19, 2021 11:42 am

Finally he was finishing with authority. He also took his time on some of those post ups. Good stuff. If he keeps playing like that he will increase his points. He will probably never be a go to guy but again his defense should always come first. But him still being a good offensive option will of course impact the game positively.
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Re: Deandre Ayton year 3, the next step 

Post#353 » by Bogyo » Tue Jan 19, 2021 1:14 pm

Finally! This is what we have been waiting for all along, and why we have been b1tching about Ayton all along.
And no we do not give a flying F that he did not score 20+ points or whatever arbitrary number we can come up with.
I hope he keeps it up - at least most of it. I'm not getting my hopes high, but hey, you never know. :)
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Re: Deandre Ayton year 3, the next step 

Post#354 » by bwgood77 » Tue Jan 19, 2021 5:51 pm

Bogyo wrote:Finally! This is what we have been waiting for all along, and why we have been b1tching about Ayton all along.
And no we do not give a flying F that he did not score 20+ points or whatever arbitrary number we can come up with.
I hope he keeps it up - at least most of it. I'm not getting my hopes high, but hey, you never know. :)


Well, he played more on offense like last year, with a tad worse fg% but that is primarily because he shot 2 3s..otherwise he was 7-12, though he did get to the line more.

But he did score less than last season's average game. He was very aggressive offensively for a long stretch last season, regularly scoring in the 20s. He's capable, just learning playing with CP3, and a bit of a slow start to the season on that side.
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Re: Deandre Ayton year 3, the next step 

Post#355 » by WeekapaugGroove » Wed Jan 20, 2021 7:10 pm

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Re: Deandre Ayton year 3, the next step 

Post#356 » by bwgood77 » Wed Jan 20, 2021 7:19 pm

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That sounds like a stretch that Pasch, an NBA announcer would know that but we hadn't heard it from anyone else. Not sure anyone is off the table, but as much as he improved last year and had some monster games as a 2nd year player, it's odd.

I think sometimes people forget he is 22, which is 2 years younger than anyone on our team other than Jalen Smith, unless you count Alexander who is only a little older than Ayton.

But the only NBA big who's done better in his 2nd year in recent years is Towns, so it's odd to want to trade a guy on a rookie contract with enormous upside, big improvement in the 2nd year, very poor rebounding and depth after that, etc, unless you are getting back some sort of significant return...which I don't know what it would have been for...don't see anyone on the table worth it.
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Re: Deandre Ayton year 3, the next step 

Post#357 » by Saberestar » Wed Jan 20, 2021 8:15 pm

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I am not really surprised about it.

James Jones did not select him with the #1 pick, so Ayton is not his guy.

Obviously is just a rumor, but makes some sense.
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Re: Deandre Ayton year 3, the next step 

Post#358 » by WeekapaugGroove » Wed Jan 20, 2021 8:18 pm

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I am not really surprised about it.

James Jones did not select him with the #1 pick, so Ayton is not his guy.

Obviously is just a rumor, but makes some sense.
I have no idea if dude has legit sources and realistically GMs guage the value of all their players.

But I have kind of got the vibe for a while that Ayton might not be one of Jones guys.

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Re: Deandre Ayton year 3, the next step 

Post#359 » by GoodBehavior » Wed Jan 20, 2021 8:40 pm

They should trade him to the Spurs or to Brad Stevens. Kid is very talented but he's a rudderless player. One minute he's talking about being a Giannis player, another minute he's going to shoot the 3, and then in another minute, he's going to be a low post dominant players, etc. I don't think he has the slightest clue what kind of player he ultimately will be. His offseason development has no roadmap.

I don't think Monty is the kind of coach that has the experience to help navigate him. Luckily for him, when he exit as a Suns player, Monty and Mark Bryant has made him into a borderline elite defensive player. The irony of this is that Igor would have made him into a bona fide offensive weapon. The one coach he didn't like.
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Re: Deandre Ayton year 3, the next step 

Post#360 » by bwgood77 » Wed Jan 20, 2021 10:53 pm

I doubt they are seriously looking to trade him. I'm sure they'd listen to offers but I think they are trying to let the team gain chemistry instead of continuing to constantly make major changes.

At least they should.

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