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Deandre Ayton year 3, the next step

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Re: Deandre Ayton year 3, the next step 

Post#681 » by Wilber85 » Tue Mar 23, 2021 9:43 pm

Kerrsed wrote:Before Ayton even played a single game for the Suns he had haters. There was absolutely no reason to hate him, but people did. Season 1 people complained that he was being very KAT-like, all offense with no effort whatsoever on the defensive end of the floor. Ask anyone who watched him at Arizona and they will tell you that thats not part of his game, he is more offensive minded than anything else.

Season 2 he stepped it up on both ends of the floor, increasing his defensive impact along with offense. He increased his shot attempts, his scoring, his rebounds, and his blocks. People still complained about him being lackadaisical. Complained about his defensive effort.

Season 3. Aytons defense increases even more. Now playing as more of a defensive minded C more than anything. Taking less shots than his previous 2 seasons but hitting them at a great efficiency. Explained in that great interview that he is doing what Coach is asking, dedicating himself more to the defensive end and worrying less about being a focal point on offense because we already got guys that can score the ball with ease. People still arnt happy.

Aytons League Rankings on the season: (https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2021_leaders.html)

#5 in Offensive Rebounds
#8 in Defensive Rebounds
#9 in Total Rebounds
#11 in Rebounds Per Game
#6 in Total Rebound Pct.
#19 in Blocks
#20 in True Shooting Pct.
#14 in Effective Field Goal Pct.
#14 in Defensive Rating
#8 in Defensive Win Shares

And in almost all of those categories he is the youngest player in the top 20. 150 games into his career and he is ranked a top 20 player in 10 different categories (13 if you also include the individual Offensive/Defensive Rebound Pct that i left out). Yet some people are so incensed to hate and ignore any good that comes from him because he isnt Luka.

So now lets discuss the Luka Aspect. The NBA Golden Boy. The one who was anointed before even stepping foot on an NBA court. Look, we have all seen him play, and yeah, he's pretty damn good, but we have also seen just how much of bullsh*t league this is by seeing all the stuff that the league allows Doncic to get away with. Barely touch him? Thats a foul! He plows into the paint like a bowling ball banging into people, Thats a foul on them! Somehow 90% of the fouls on him are in the act of shooting.....yet when you see the replay the act of shooting occurs way way way after the whistle and sometimes not at all. He gets BEYOND superstar calls....while guys like Booker have to be bleeding to get even just the chance to get a whistle. Ayton too! How many times have we seen Ayton get the ball right under the basket covered by 2 or 3 guys, bring the ball down and it gets stripped? Happens all the time and never (NEVER NEVER NEVER) does he get a whistle. Do you think that its a clean strip everytime? Hell no! Damn near impossible to have 3 defenders all go for the ball and none of them make contact. Ayton haters just go, "Ugh, hands of stone, cant do sh*t". Problem is Ayton doesnt know how to sell the foul (Or more appropriately SHOW that there was contact). He doesnt do the "OMG WTF" arm flail that others do to get the call. But back to Luka, look, if there was no Luka would the Ayton Haters still hate? Highly doubtful. That measuring stick wouldnt be there and without the comparisons all you have is a great super solid young big bursting with talent.

"But Kerrsed, he looks bored on the court, i dont see that fire, i want that fire!". Does that really matter when he is still being super effective? I mean i dont see that aggression or fire when i watch a guy like Kawhi play. Stone faced, not yelling or getting excited over stuffs, just getting the job done. No dramatics like Amare and his chest beating and and one yelling, just efficient and methodical like Tim Duncan.

"But Kerrsed, he his hands suck ass, he constantly turns the ball over and drops passes, hands of stone needs to stop bringing the ball down low!". Under 2 turnovers a game. Yes, despite all the complaints and haters making it sound like he is a TO machine, its less than 2 a game. Yet you look around the league at other leading C's like Embiid, Adebayo, Jokic, Sabonis, Gobert, and they all average around 3 turnovers a game. So dont buy into the hater-hype of Ayton turning the ball over all the time.

Fact is Ayton is doing exactly what we have asked him to do......AND ITS WORKING! He's playing top notch defense and taking less shots while being more efficient with his shots. And we are winning! Boy are we winning! Winning so much that posters cant complain about the team so they have to nitpick things and blow stuff way out of proportion so they can complain about stuff.

It irks the hell out of me that a bad game for Ayton is still close to a double double with solid defense and he gets torn to shreds, but the boards favorite Bridges gets a pass because he was drafted #10. People complain about Ayton not being aggressive but turn a blind eye to Bridges when he only takes 4 shots a game despite his high percentages. A bad Bridges game is 6 points 3 assists, a rebound and a steal......while shooting 50%. Where the fire? Wheres the aggressiveness? Oh, that doesnt matter because of the defense he provides? Funny, Ayton doesnt get that same excuse.

3rd season in the league (6 years after picking up his first basketball). Already headed to being a top C in the league on a competitive and winning basketball team. Haters gonna Hate.

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But the haters are going to have to find new angles to hate on because their old ones aren't working or valid!


AMEN - this was spot on, and there will be some haters coming out with red faces.

They already have made up in their mind they hate Ayton. Even if he avg 35/15 they will still have excuses.

If we were 10th place and ayton had 14/12 I could argue to trade him and its not working. But we are 3rd place!!!!!!! Let's go

Keep crying!
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Re: Deandre Ayton year 3, the next step 

Post#682 » by WeekapaugGroove » Tue Mar 23, 2021 10:15 pm

My counterpoint on Ayton 'haters' is some of that was from the suns fans who were super dismissive of Luka leading up to that draft and acted like **** to those who thought Luka should have been the pick. Basically the Gambo effect. Then some of those same ones are like soccer mom's with him and get super upset with any criticism and blame his struggles on everyone except him.

Now I also agree some suns fans take it way too far with the bitching about his play.

My take on Ayton is he's a good player who could be a great player but I'm not sure he ever really gets there.

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Re: Deandre Ayton year 3, the next step 

Post#683 » by lilfishi22 » Tue Mar 23, 2021 10:42 pm

Strawman after strawman after strawman

At this point no one is expecting 24/12 or 35/15 from him yet that's repeated over and over again as if anyone is really calling for that.
alamin330 wrote:This draft reminds me of the 2003 draft.
Lebron - Zion, Barrett like Melo, wade like Culver, garland like tj ford, hunter like bosh, white like Barbosa, Clarke like David West. I think this draft is actually going to be deeper though
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Re: Deandre Ayton year 3, the next step 

Post#684 » by GoodBehavior » Tue Mar 23, 2021 10:49 pm

I think the dissatisfaction from a select group of dissenters is due to his lack of progress on the offensive end.

However, I think the team's development path for him was to improve his defensive ability and IQ, initially. Then allow his offensive game to grow. The improvement is pretty dramatic. Ayton went from clueless to being more than respectable on D. That's probably one of the toughest development path and achievement. Kuddos to him. Just look at how badly Bagley is doing on D, and that should tell you how difficult it is to develop on D.

I am not worried about his offensive development. He's only going to get stronger and his 3 ball will get better. The only thing stopping him from being great on Offense is his inability to take advantage when he's wide open. Hopefully that changes with better shooting.
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Re: Deandre Ayton year 3, the next step 

Post#685 » by Mulhollanddrive » Tue Mar 23, 2021 11:24 pm

For all the debate one side thinks he's worth $18m and the other $22m, so there's not that much difference.

The conversation breaks down when it becomes all or nothing which the above shows it's not.
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Re: Deandre Ayton year 3, the next step 

Post#686 » by lilfishi22 » Tue Mar 23, 2021 11:28 pm

GoodBehavior wrote:I think the dissatisfaction from a select group of dissenters is due to his lack of progress on the offensive end.

However, I think the team's development path for him was to improve his defensive ability and IQ, initially. Then allow his offensive game to grow. The improvement is pretty dramatic. Ayton went from clueless to being more than respectable on D. That's probably one of the toughest development path and achievement. Kuddos to him. Just look at how badly Bagley is doing on D, and that should tell you how difficult it is to develop on D.

I am not worried about his offensive development. He's only going to get stronger and his 3 ball will get better. The only thing stopping him from being great on Offense is his inability to take advantage when he's wide open. Hopefully that changes with better shooting.

Perhaps I'm just speaking for myself but I feel like the vibe among the "Haytons" really isn't about the defense or offense but really effort and focus and that leads to consistency. Maybe count EJ and Chambers among the Haytons but what they've criticised Ayton about is an echo of what's been posted on this board. Just effort, focus and consistency. I'm sure his harshest critics will still find something to complain about even with much improved effort, focus and consistency but I feel like he'll get a ton of critics off his back if he just improved on those 3 things.
alamin330 wrote:This draft reminds me of the 2003 draft.
Lebron - Zion, Barrett like Melo, wade like Culver, garland like tj ford, hunter like bosh, white like Barbosa, Clarke like David West. I think this draft is actually going to be deeper though
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Re: Deandre Ayton year 3, the next step 

Post#687 » by Mulhollanddrive » Tue Mar 23, 2021 11:31 pm

Good test against Adebayo today, if Ayton beats him doubt they can win.
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Re: Deandre Ayton year 3, the next step 

Post#688 » by irish22022 » Tue Mar 23, 2021 11:33 pm

I've been saying it for a year now, DA will get a max deal. His averages on our team only matter a little. We're the slowest paced team in the nba basically. A mobile athletic big like ayton turns several teams into top tier clubs. You don't the celtics could make ayton a 24/12 player? The Knicks? They could. His agent knows that and he knows that.

Talk amongst yourselves all you want. Ayton will be getting a 32mil+ contract per year. Stamp it.
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Re: Deandre Ayton year 3, the next step 

Post#689 » by lilfishi22 » Tue Mar 23, 2021 11:35 pm

WeekapaugGroove wrote:My counterpoint on Ayton 'haters' is some of that was from the suns fans who were super dismissive of Luka leading up to that draft and acted like **** to those who thought Luka should have been the pick. Basically the Gambo effect. Then some of those same ones are like soccer mom's with him and get super upset with any criticism and blame his struggles on everyone except him.

Now I also agree some suns fans take it way too far with the bitching about his play.

My take on Ayton is he's a good player who could be a great player but I'm not sure he ever really gets there.

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A ton of whataboutism too

What about when Bridges has a bad game, what about when Booker tries to be a hero and loses the game, what about Cam who's 38 and shot 2 for 8? What about Bamba over in a Orlando doing F all?

Yeah what about them? We're talkin bout Ayton

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alamin330 wrote:This draft reminds me of the 2003 draft.
Lebron - Zion, Barrett like Melo, wade like Culver, garland like tj ford, hunter like bosh, white like Barbosa, Clarke like David West. I think this draft is actually going to be deeper though
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Re: Deandre Ayton year 3, the next step 

Post#690 » by Mulhollanddrive » Tue Mar 23, 2021 11:38 pm

The highest paid player next season to never score 19ppg or make all-star is Hield at $22m.
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Re: Deandre Ayton year 3, the next step 

Post#691 » by bwgood77 » Wed Mar 24, 2021 12:08 am

WeekapaugGroove wrote:My counterpoint on Ayton 'haters' is some of that was from the suns fans who were super dismissive of Luka leading up to that draft and acted like **** to those who thought Luka should have been the pick. Basically the Gambo effect. Then some of those same ones are like soccer mom's with him and get super upset with any criticism and blame his struggles on everyone except him.

Now I also agree some suns fans take it way too far with the bitching about his play.

My take on Ayton is he's a good player who could be a great player but I'm not sure he ever really gets there.

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I do think many who wanted him over Luka are some of the bigger people constantly bitching about little things with him every game, and then some that really wanted Luka will never like him, because they really wanted Luka. I wanted Luka and was worried about Ayton...a lot more worried than I am now.

Personally I don't blame his struggles on anyone outside of he could get better higher passes at times...I think they have improved with this though. His scoring is down because he doesn't get a lot of shots, though his efficiency is great. I'd like him to get more and that would please the PPG analysis group, and that may come with time, depending on who they want or who wants to take shots.

I agree with your last sentence...he's a good player who could become a great player but you could say that about several of our young players too. Paul shows the impact a great player has on everyone and how far a team can go. So yeah, when people clean up turnovers, lock in on D, take both sides of the ball seriously all the time, etc, we could be really tough and not have these games we struggle so much.
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Re: Deandre Ayton year 3, the next step 

Post#692 » by bwgood77 » Wed Mar 24, 2021 12:16 am

lilfishi22 wrote:Yeah what about them? We're talkin bout Ayton


Exactly. That's all people seem to focus on regardless of a lot of inconsistent and sloppy play by most guys on the team...there was a game not long ago where just about everyone had 2-5 turnovers and that's why we lost, but not according to the masses. So yeah, you're right there is the laser focus on one person.

Now I know I've been overly critical of Ayton in the past too, to the point it angered a number of people, but I can acknowledge his improvements (some vast) as well, especially this early in his career. Some obviously can't. I mean, have you pointed out anything positive about his play in any of the flurry of posts? I certainly don't recall in hundreds of posts...there are others too. A couple acknowledge one good play here and there in a game thread but that's about it.

It's just bizarre how many are like that.
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Re: Deandre Ayton year 3, the next step 

Post#693 » by irish22022 » Wed Mar 24, 2021 12:30 am

Mulhollanddrive wrote:The highest paid player next season to never score 19ppg or make all-star is Hield at $22m.


Very few bigs in the league can do what ayton can do. There's no questioning that. He will be paid accordingly.
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Re: Deandre Ayton year 3, the next step 

Post#694 » by lilfishi22 » Wed Mar 24, 2021 12:40 am

bwgood77 wrote:
lilfishi22 wrote:Yeah what about them? We're talkin bout Ayton]


Exactly. That's all people seem to focus on regardless of a lot of inconsistent and sloppy play by most guys on the team...there was a game not long ago where just about everyone had 2-5 turnovers and that's why we lost, but not according to the masses. So yeah, you're right there is the laser focus on one person.

Now I know I've been overly critical of Ayton in the past too, to the point it angered a number of people, but I can acknowledge his improvements (some vast) as well, especially this early in his career. Some obviously can't. I mean, have you pointed out anything positive about his play in any of the flurry of posts? I certainly don't recall in hundreds of posts...there are others too. A couple acknowledge one good play here and there in a game thread but that's about it.

It's just bizarre how many are like that.

I always try and acknowledge good and bad plays from every player in game threads. Called our Paul recently when he was looking off in hat Indy game, called out Booker missing wide open 3's etc

I think I've been fair with my criticism of Ayton

Ayton's tentativeness and inconsistency is super frustrating but in defense of him, we're still 25-12 so he's doing more things right than wrong in order for him to be playing the minutes he has for us and still help us win. I think it's just going to be a consistent theme in his career unless he makes a change. There's going to be games where he looks like a top 3 C in the league then there's 4-5 game stretches where you wonder if you would've gotten more value drafting Mitchell Robinson in the second round than Ayton with the #1 overall pick.
alamin330 wrote:This draft reminds me of the 2003 draft.
Lebron - Zion, Barrett like Melo, wade like Culver, garland like tj ford, hunter like bosh, white like Barbosa, Clarke like David West. I think this draft is actually going to be deeper though
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Re: Deandre Ayton year 3, the next step 

Post#695 » by bwgood77 » Wed Mar 24, 2021 1:17 am

irish22022 wrote:
Mulhollanddrive wrote:The highest paid player next season to never score 19ppg or make all-star is Hield at $22m.


Very few bigs in the league can do what ayton can do. There's no questioning that. He will be paid accordingly.


Just simply the cap going up 2 years will be one thing. But players have made more that don't meet that criteria or close..off the top of my head, Steven Adams just came off a 4/100 contract....I think Ayton is better than when Adams got that contract...Ayton certainly better at same age.

Heck, Tyler Johnson made more than that his last year with us, as did Ryan Anderson, though he scored 19 once...seems like Ayton is worth more than he was.

Though I hate PPG as a barometer. Wiggins is on a max. He's pretty good, but overpaid.
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Re: Deandre Ayton year 3, the next step 

Post#696 » by TouchPassDario » Wed Mar 24, 2021 4:04 am

WeekapaugGroove wrote:My counterpoint on Ayton 'haters' is some of that was from the suns fans who were super dismissive of Luka leading up to that draft and acted like **** to those who thought Luka should have been the pick. Basically the Gambo effect. Then some of those same ones are like soccer mom's with him and get super upset with any criticism and blame his struggles on everyone except him.

Now I also agree some suns fans take it way too far with the bitching about his play.

My take on Ayton is he's a good player who could be a great player but I'm not sure he ever really gets there.

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He got there tonight.

I agree that AytonStans tend to be extremely moronic LukaHaters. However, any serious basketball evaluator realizes that Ayton is an incredible talent, and has shown enough flashes of putting it all together to be a great player on a championship team.

He was the best player on the floor tonight.
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Re: Deandre Ayton year 3, the next step 

Post#697 » by TouchPassDario » Wed Mar 24, 2021 4:08 am

It’s going to be very interesting when Ayton is showing out in the WCF and Luka is watching from home after getting bounced in the first round.

Box score babies are going to be clutching their precious counting stats.
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Re: Deandre Ayton year 3, the next step 

Post#698 » by Iceman36 » Wed Mar 24, 2021 7:21 am

Kerrsed wrote:Before Ayton even played a single game for the Suns he had haters. There was absolutely no reason to hate him, but people did. Season 1 people complained that he was being very KAT-like, all offense with no effort whatsoever on the defensive end of the floor. Ask anyone who watched him at Arizona and they will tell you that thats not part of his game, he is more offensive minded than anything else.

Season 2 he stepped it up on both ends of the floor, increasing his defensive impact along with offense. He increased his shot attempts, his scoring, his rebounds, and his blocks. People still complained about him being lackadaisical. Complained about his defensive effort.

Season 3. Aytons defense increases even more. Now playing as more of a defensive minded C more than anything. Taking less shots than his previous 2 seasons but hitting them at a great efficiency. Explained in that great interview that he is doing what Coach is asking, dedicating himself more to the defensive end and worrying less about being a focal point on offense because we already got guys that can score the ball with ease. People still arnt happy.

Aytons League Rankings on the season: (https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2021_leaders.html)

#5 in Offensive Rebounds
#8 in Defensive Rebounds
#9 in Total Rebounds
#11 in Rebounds Per Game
#6 in Total Rebound Pct.
#19 in Blocks
#20 in True Shooting Pct.
#14 in Effective Field Goal Pct.
#14 in Defensive Rating
#8 in Defensive Win Shares

And in almost all of those categories he is the youngest player in the top 20. 150 games into his career and he is ranked a top 20 player in 10 different categories (13 if you also include the individual Offensive/Defensive Rebound Pct that i left out). Yet some people are so incensed to hate and ignore any good that comes from him because he isnt Luka.

So now lets discuss the Luka Aspect. The NBA Golden Boy. The one who was anointed before even stepping foot on an NBA court. Look, we have all seen him play, and yeah, he's pretty damn good, but we have also seen just how much of bullsh*t league this is by seeing all the stuff that the league allows Doncic to get away with. Barely touch him? Thats a foul! He plows into the paint like a bowling ball banging into people, Thats a foul on them! Somehow 90% of the fouls on him are in the act of shooting.....yet when you see the replay the act of shooting occurs way way way after the whistle and sometimes not at all. He gets BEYOND superstar calls....while guys like Booker have to be bleeding to get even just the chance to get a whistle. Ayton too! How many times have we seen Ayton get the ball right under the basket covered by 2 or 3 guys, bring the ball down and it gets stripped? Happens all the time and never (NEVER NEVER NEVER) does he get a whistle. Do you think that its a clean strip everytime? Hell no! Damn near impossible to have 3 defenders all go for the ball and none of them make contact. Ayton haters just go, "Ugh, hands of stone, cant do sh*t". Problem is Ayton doesnt know how to sell the foul (Or more appropriately SHOW that there was contact). He doesnt do the "OMG WTF" arm flail that others do to get the call. But back to Luka, look, if there was no Luka would the Ayton Haters still hate? Highly doubtful. That measuring stick wouldnt be there and without the comparisons all you have is a great super solid young big bursting with talent.

"But Kerrsed, he looks bored on the court, i dont see that fire, i want that fire!". Does that really matter when he is still being super effective? I mean i dont see that aggression or fire when i watch a guy like Kawhi play. Stone faced, not yelling or getting excited over stuffs, just getting the job done. No dramatics like Amare and his chest beating and and one yelling, just efficient and methodical like Tim Duncan.

"But Kerrsed, he his hands suck ass, he constantly turns the ball over and drops passes, hands of stone needs to stop bringing the ball down low!". Under 2 turnovers a game. Yes, despite all the complaints and haters making it sound like he is a TO machine, its less than 2 a game. Yet you look around the league at other leading C's like Embiid, Adebayo, Jokic, Sabonis, Gobert, and they all average around 3 turnovers a game. So dont buy into the hater-hype of Ayton turning the ball over all the time.

Fact is Ayton is doing exactly what we have asked him to do......AND ITS WORKING! He's playing top notch defense and taking less shots while being more efficient with his shots. And we are winning! Boy are we winning! Winning so much that posters cant complain about the team so they have to nitpick things and blow stuff way out of proportion so they can complain about stuff.

It irks the hell out of me that a bad game for Ayton is still close to a double double with solid defense and he gets torn to shreds, but the boards favorite Bridges gets a pass because he was drafted #10. People complain about Ayton not being aggressive but turn a blind eye to Bridges when he only takes 4 shots a game despite his high percentages. A bad Bridges game is 6 points 3 assists, a rebound and a steal......while shooting 50%. Where the fire? Wheres the aggressiveness? Oh, that doesnt matter because of the defense he provides? Funny, Ayton doesnt get that same excuse.

3rd season in the league (6 years after picking up his first basketball). Already headed to being a top C in the league on a competitive and winning basketball team. Haters gonna Hate.

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But the haters are going to have to find new angles to hate on because their old ones aren't working or valid!

Great post! Thank you!
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Re: Deandre Ayton year 3, the next step 

Post#699 » by Bogyo » Wed Mar 24, 2021 10:40 am

This is the effort and efficency we've been asking for, consistantly. Or at least 90% and 75% of the times like I outlined a couple pages back. Ofcourse that hasn't gotten any replies, just the funny stuff - that some tight panty people missunderstood even though the original poster and I had a good laugh about it... The other strawman and whatabout replies still bore me, still yawn at those.

Hopefully DA will keep this intensity and effort up more than 5 games, I don't really care about the rest, as I have posted it many times - with no luck, becouse somebody will still say that I want him to be 20/10 or 36/12 or whatever arbitrary numbers or players (Doncic, Hakeem whatever) they want to put in my mouth that I never really said.

Keep calm and carry on. If he does, we are contenders. If not, we are 2nd round - also something which I've been saying since the begining of the season.

As for the: "Yu DOn'T kNo BusKETbAlL!!4!!" village-idi ot type comments... I will not respond, as some people find my answers disrispectful, where's the original offensive stuff flies by... good thing I got used to all kinds of (non)-preferrential treatment as a suns fan, otherwise I might be surprised by the bias.
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Re: Deandre Ayton year 3, the next step 

Post#700 » by sunsbg » Wed Mar 24, 2021 11:28 am

It was obvious they were force-feeding Ayton early in this game thus he appeared more engaged than usual. His inconsistency is really overblown. I bet next season he puts much better PPG number because of contract year, increased role, normal development and chemistry growth with CP3, to please a few posters here.

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