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I posted this earlier but my biggest hope is that Ayton at least can be someone who can knock down a corner 3 and defend guys like Davis and Giannis inside while not being exploited by wings and guards defensively. Those types who are around 7ft but can't be exploited defensively like slower centers are nowadays are going to be pretty valuable going into the future.

I'm just worried he doesn't do the diving and the hustle stuff like PJ Tucker did. Heck even Davis and Giannis do a lot of dirty work inside. He needs to also not forget about his man because of all the ball watching. Can't just do all the fun stuff like putting up 18/10.

I'm going to be lazy and ask the question instead of doing research myself but has any player ever come into the league like Ayton has, lacking aggression, lacking the desire to draw contact and changed during their career into a dunk slamming, FT getting force to be reckon with down low?

lilfishi22 wrote:I'm going to be lazy and ask the question instead of doing research myself but has any player ever come into the league like Ayton has, lacking aggression, lacking the desire to draw contact and changed during their career into a dunk slamming, FT getting force to be reckon with down low?

Some have mentioned Adebayo, though I have not watched him much.

Had a quick look - he doubled FTA in his 3rd season.

lilfishi22 wrote:I'm going to be lazy and ask the question instead of doing research myself but has any player ever come into the league like Ayton has, lacking aggression, lacking the desire to draw contact and changed during their career into a dunk slamming, FT getting force to be reckon with down low?

He doesn't even need to be too aggressive, he just needs to learn how to fake, hesitate and flop. He doesn't know for now how to do anything of that.

In this current NBA every player needs to "sell" that he is getting fouled to the refs. Ayton plays basketball like there are not refs watching, and this need to change.

Big guys like Jokic and Embiid know how to do it. I hate flopping but the NBA loves to reward it, so he needs to adapt his game a bit to take some advantage from that.

Saberestar wrote:

lilfishi22 wrote:I'm going to be lazy and ask the question instead of doing research myself but has any player ever come into the league like Ayton has, lacking aggression, lacking the desire to draw contact and changed during their career into a dunk slamming, FT getting force to be reckon with down low?

He doesn't even need to be too aggressive, he just needs to learn how to fake, hesitate and flop. He doesn't know for now how to do anything of that.

In this current NBA every player needs to "sell" that he is getting fouled to the refs. Ayton plays basketball like there are not refs watching, and this need to change.

Big guys like Jokic and Embiid know how to do it. I hate flopping but the NBA loves to reward it, so he needs to adapt his game a bit to take some advantage from that.

Agree, you dont need to be ultra aggressive to be a good player.

But you need to be smart. Lets hope we see some development

lilfishi22 wrote:I'm going to be lazy and ask the question instead of doing research myself but has any player ever come into the league like Ayton has, lacking aggression, lacking the desire to draw contact and changed during their career into a dunk slamming, FT getting force to be reckon with down low?

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/a/antetgi01.html

First guy that came to mind is: https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/o/onealje01.html

Check out this guy's jump in the 3rd year: https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/a/adebaba01.html

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/m/malonka01.html

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/g/garneke01.html

Years 5-8 https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordade01.html

Started out decent...but got a lot better https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/howardw01.html

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/boshch01.html

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/boozeca01.html

I think part of it is being a one and done guy....which is more recent for the most part....other guys with more college and experience being coached probably come in better at it.

Saberestar wrote:

lilfishi22 wrote:I'm going to be lazy and ask the question instead of doing research myself but has any player ever come into the league like Ayton has, lacking aggression, lacking the desire to draw contact and changed during their career into a dunk slamming, FT getting force to be reckon with down low?

He doesn't even need to be too aggressive, he just needs to learn how to fake, hesitate and flop. He doesn't know for now how to do anything of that.

In this current NBA every player needs to "sell" that he is getting fouled to the refs. Ayton plays basketball like there are not refs watching, and this need to change.

Big guys like Jokic and Embiid know how to do it. I hate flopping but the NBA loves to reward it, so he needs to adapt his game a bit to take some advantage from that.

This, perfect way of putting it.

This might be related to his smiling all the damn time, too.

Ayton needs to be more aggressive in general and definitely needs to get to the line more.

Now he'll never post the FT rate that some bigs have because he's not a bad FT shooter so he's not someone you auto foul down like some guys.

One skill I'd love for him to put some time into this summer is his handle. Getting comfortable enough to pump fake and dribble when a defender closes out would open up some things for him on O. It would also lead to more FT attempts because defenders would be out of position. Right now when he catches on top of the key the only thing a defender has to worry about is a shot (they probably don't mind giving him that) or a pass, adding a drive would do wonders for his game.

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Without question, it's strength gain. I think this is 95% of the frustration with him. If he can actually be a presence in the middle, the Suns are probably in the playoff as a 4th or 5th seed. Mikal, Cam, Carter, Saric, etc will look so much better on offense as well.

Ayton has no problem finishing on pick and roll, utilizing his quick feet. But on deep positions in the paint, he's like a clueless puppy against grown men. Can't finish through contact. Can't get a clean shot unless it's a fade away. Can't draw fouls to save his life. It's no wonder Booker look him off when he has a 1-on-1 matchup in the paint, against smaller players no less. He's simply not strong enough at this point. If I had to guess, he's probably shooting under 50% on non-pick and roll at the rim, which is just awful for a center of his size. Someone on reddit post some stats and Ayton had more possession in the post than as a roll man. The efficiency was 0.78 ppp vs 1.16 ppp. Most of those post-ups are deep in the paint. His post-up is worse than his mid range jumper.

Hopefully it changes. At some point his ridiculous size and length should allow him to power through against small centers (which is 75% of the league right now). He shouldn't be taking fadeaway jumpers against the likes of Montrell Harrell, Bam, Powell, Porzingis, Turner, etc. Like Jokic or Embiid or even LMA, if there's a small center on him, it should be an automatic feed into the post. He's just not there yet unfortunately despite all the arrays of moves and countermoves.

Most centers take a step function change in improvement when their "grown man strength" kick in. It typically occurs around this age (22). For some like Tyson Chandler, Jermaine O'neal, etc, it might take longer. Who knows when it will kick in for Ayton, but hopefully it is year 3 and we don't have to keep talking about his (lack of) presence in the paint.

Saberestar wrote:

lilfishi22 wrote:I'm going to be lazy and ask the question instead of doing research myself but has any player ever come into the league like Ayton has, lacking aggression, lacking the desire to draw contact and changed during their career into a dunk slamming, FT getting force to be reckon with down low?

He doesn't even need to be too aggressive, he just needs to learn how to fake, hesitate and flop. He doesn't know for now how to do anything of that.

In this current NBA every player needs to "sell" that he is getting fouled to the refs. Ayton plays basketball like there are not refs watching, and this need to change.

Big guys like Jokic and Embiid know how to do it. I hate flopping but the NBA loves to reward it, so he needs to adapt his game a bit to take some advantage from that.

You might be right about that. Perhaps being put in better positions to make plays and draw fouls at the same time would be good for him without having to need a complete mental shift in attitude.

Making an effort to get to the FT line next season should be top priority for Ayton.

GoodBehavior wrote:Without question, it's strength gain. I think this is 95% of the frustration with him. If he can actually be a presence in the middle, the Suns are probably in the playoff as a 4th or 5th seed. Mikal, Cam, Carter, Saric, etc will look so much better on offense as well.

Ayton has no problem finishing on pick and roll, utilizing his quick feet. But on deep positions in the paint, he's like a clueless puppy against grown men. Can't finish through contact. Can't get a clean shot unless it's a fade away. Can't draw fouls to save his life. It's no wonder Booker look him off when he has a 1-on-1 matchup in the paint, against smaller players no less. He's simply not strong enough at this point. If I had to guess, he's probably shooting under 50% on non-pick and roll at the rim, which is just awful for a center of his size. Someone on reddit post some stats and Ayton had more possession in the post than as a roll man. The efficiency was 0.78 ppp vs 1.16 ppp. Most of those post-ups are deep in the paint. His post-up is worse than his mid range jumper.

Hopefully it changes. At some point his ridiculous size and length should allow him to power through against small centers (which is 75% of the league right now). He shouldn't be taking fadeaway jumpers against the likes of Montrell Harrell, Bam, Powell, Porzingis, Turner, etc. Like Jokic or Embiid or even LMA, if there's a small center on him, it should be an automatic feed into the post. He's just not there yet unfortunately despite all the arrays of moves and countermoves.

Most centers take a step function change in improvement when their "grown man strength" kick in. It typically occurs around this age (22). For some like Tyson Chandler, Jermaine O'neal, etc, it might take longer. Who knows when it will kick in for Ayton, but hopefully it is year 3 and we don't have to keep talking about his (lack of) presence in the paint.

I don't know man... When you look at him, he's built like a brick wall. I think it's that he just doesn't have enough skill in his offensive repertoire. Besides dunking and shooting mid-range shots there's nothing else there.

bwgood77 wrote:

lilfishi22 wrote:I'm going to be lazy and ask the question instead of doing research myself but has any player ever come into the league like Ayton has, lacking aggression, lacking the desire to draw contact and changed during their career into a dunk slamming, FT getting force to be reckon with down low?

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/a/antetgi01.html

First guy that came to mind is: https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/o/onealje01.html

Check out this guy's jump in the 3rd year: https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/a/adebaba01.html

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/m/malonka01.html

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/g/garneke01.html

Years 5-8 https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordade01.html

Started out decent...but got a lot better https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/howardw01.html

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/boshch01.html

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/boozeca01.html

I think part of it is being a one and done guy....which is more recent for the most part....other guys with more college and experience being coached probably come in better at it.

These are either HOF players, or all-NBA selection players in their prime. Not sure DeAndre will ever get there with his mindset.

Bogyo wrote:

bwgood77 wrote:

lilfishi22 wrote:I'm going to be lazy and ask the question instead of doing research myself but has any player ever come into the league like Ayton has, lacking aggression, lacking the desire to draw contact and changed during their career into a dunk slamming, FT getting force to be reckon with down low?

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/a/antetgi01.html

First guy that came to mind is: https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/o/onealje01.html

Check out this guy's jump in the 3rd year: https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/a/adebaba01.html

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/m/malonka01.html

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/g/garneke01.html

Years 5-8 https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordade01.html

Started out decent...but got a lot better https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/howardw01.html

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/boshch01.html

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/boozeca01.html

I think part of it is being a one and done guy....which is more recent for the most part....other guys with more college and experience being coached probably come in better at it.

These are either HOF players, or all-NBA selection players in their prime. Not sure DeAndre will ever get there with his mindset.

Well, many are examples who started out very slow at getting to the line and got there a lot more in years 2, 3, 4 or 5. Remember he has still only played 109 games. I doubt many of these were considered hall of fame or close after that many games.

He will avg 22/12 next year with close to 2 bpg. If he can be more aggressive and get to the line he will be good. He is also improving defense and his passing every year! I think he will be good

Maturity is the single biggest problem with Ayton. All other facets of his game will fall into place when he grows up, if that ever happens. I am not optimistic on that happening at all, at least not before his coveted second contract is due.

I'm not opposed to him getting stronger because some big bigs did give him trouble but it can't come at the expenses of quickness. His ability to move his feet is probably his best defensive trait and I wouldn't trade that for bulk.

On the FT thing Giannis is kind of a bad example because he's not a very good FT shooter so teams will always try to hack him when he's close to the rim. Ayton is too good from the line for that to be in the opponents game plan for him. Now I'm all for him going up stronger and getting organic fouls.

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Ball handling is the biggest thing for me, skill-wise. It doesn't need to be advanced, but he needs to expand his face-up game to more than jab step-jab step-jump shot/pass. Being able to put the ball on the floor and create contact is essential to getting to the free throw line. You're not going to get their consistently scoring on lobs, putbacks, deep paint touches, mid-range jumpers, and hook shoots/turnaround jumpers. Joel Embiid doesn't get to the free throw line 8 times a game without squaring up, driving, and creating contact.

Maturity is obvious. He's still a gangly, goofy kid that doesn't know what he's physically capable of or what kind of player he needs to be. It should come with age, not sure what age that'll be though. I trust Monty to get him where he needs to go.

Attack the rim.

Attack the D.

Go hard after every rebound.