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PHoenix Suns 2020 NBA DRAFT BIG BOARD

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alamin330
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Re: PHoenix Suns 2020 NBA DRAFT BIG BOARD 

Post#21 » by alamin330 » Tue Oct 6, 2020 12:09 am

Look at his college competition. He can’t defend guys at the college level who won’t make an nba roster. Same for his offense. He’s not worth #10.
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Ghost of Kleine
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Re: PHoenix Suns 2020 NBA DRAFT BIG BOARD 

Post#22 » by Ghost of Kleine » Tue Oct 6, 2020 2:42 am

alamin330 wrote:Look at his college competition. He can’t defend guys at the college level who won’t make an nba roster. Same for his offense. He’s not worth #10.


Not to misunderstand you man, But what do you mean by " same for his offense"?
And actually he has solid tools to become a decent defender with his burst, lateral quickness and strong frame.

He’s not worth #10

I'm sorry, But this is a pretty poor mischaracterization of his upside/potential, Especially in this particular draft, Wherein there is NO CLEAR CUT TOP TIER TALENT, and moreover filled with rotation or role players by majority consensus. He at the very least has strong potential as a future impact starter/ 3 level scoring combo guard. He's easily elite offensively, And very solid in the majority of other categories, Regardless of minority/ casual opinions. That being said, It's perfectly fine to have a difference of opinion as to his projected outcome. But please take some time to dig a little deeper on your research on him, And you'll perhaps change your opinion! Or not! :dontknow:

Nevertheless, He'll absolutely be an NBA player, And quite possibly go anywhere from the range of 14- 25. And likely would be ranked much higher IF only there'd been an actual tournament to showcase his elite abilities, strong penetration skills, High IQ, and savvy, decisive play. And again, that's in addition to his primary value is as an ELITE offensive guard with very few holes in his overall game offensively!

https://www.thestepien.com/2020/03/30/case-grant-riller/

Before diving into Riller’s defense, let’s finish up touching on how talented of an offensive player he is and compare his numbers historically. Since 2008, there has been four college guards* who have met the following filters:

Height: 6’0” – 6’6” (re: guards*)

USG% > 32

TS% > 60

STL% > 2.5
- Those players are:
1- Stephen Curry.
2- Damian Lillard.
3- James Harden.
4- GRANT RILLER
.

Zach Milner (@ZachMilner13) Tweeted:
Since 2008, there have been 4 college "guards" who have met the following filters:

Height: 6'0" - 6'6" (re: "guards")
USG% > 32
TS% > 60
STL% > 2.5

Stats by @totally_t_bomb https://t.co/K6GiU8h221
Read on Twitter
?s=20

So I don't know if the Austin Rivers comparison is really appropriate for him obviously.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.peachtreehoops.com/platform/amp/2020/9/1/21198359/grant-riller-2020-nba-draft-scouting-report-atlanta-hawks-charleston-guard-video-offense-defense
Riller was one of the best offensive players in the country over the past three seasons, compiling a four-year average of 35 points per 100 possessions. He carried a usage rate above 30 the past two seasons.

Despite only being 6’3, Riller shot an insane 59.3% on two-point field goal attempts in his college career. Per Synergy Sports, he was over 63% around the basket on non-post ups, a staggering figure for a 6’3 guard without particularly elite burst or athleticism. Riller’s feel and touch sets him apart, and even though he did not play the best competition at the NCAA level, if you buy the scoring package, he is a safe bet to be a productive player.

Riller had one of the best offensive runs in mid-major history, with numbers that align with the likes of Lillard, McCollum and Curry to back up the aforementioned comparisons.

His ability to change speed and/or direction combined with his soft touch around the rim make him an extremely tough cover for any defense. Give Riller a solid screen, and good luck slowing him down. The senior ranked 97th percentile in pick-and-roll ball-handling possessions in 2019-20, and he was utilized in that role in more than 25 percent of the team’s possessions this season.

Riller also grades well off the ball, ranking in the 96th percentile on spot-ups across 86 possessions, accounting for 13.5% of his overall usage.


https://www.postandcourier.com/sports/caa-basketball-teams-figure-it-out-stop-charlestons-grant-riller-beat-the-cougars/article_da59213e-42cf-11ea-b133-afa9f4564dd7.html
Grant Riller has seen just about every defense imaginable in his 122 games at the College of Charleston.

They’ve all been designed for one purpose – to stop, or at least slow him down.

Over the last four seasons, the Orlando, Fla., native has seen his share of double and triple teams and sliced through them with ease. He’s gone up against box-in-one and triangle-in-two defenses, with opposing teams guarding him man-to-man while using a zone defense against his teammates.
Few have succeeded.

With 2,244 career points, Riller is the third-leading active scorer in the NCAA and the second-leading scorer in College of Charleston history.


https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.grizzlybearblues.com/platform/amp/2020/5/29/21273406/2020-nba-draft-profiles-grant-riller-memphis-grizzlies-college-charleston

Grant Riller:
Guard, College of Charleston

- 6’3”, 190 pounds, 23 years old, from Ocoee, Florida
- 2019-2020 season: 31 games, 33.5 minutes per game, 21.9 points, 5.1 rebounds, 3.9 assists, 50% from the field, 36% from three, 83% from the foul line.
- ACCOLADES: 3-time All-CAA first-team.
- 2018 CAA tournament MVP.
- ADVANCED STAT STRENGTHS (per Tankathon): 61 TS%, 55 eFG%, PER: 30.6

Not only should Riller be a first round pick, but there’s even an argument to be made that he should go in the lottery. However, why Riller isn’t projected as highly as he should be isn’t surprising. As a player, he combines two characteristics that NBA executives do not care for when evaluating prospects: he’s an older four-year player (not counting his redshirt season), and he played for a mid-major in a conference that most casual basketball fans have never heard before.

But if league executives are willing to look past Riller’s exterior that may not fit the exact mold of what they’re looking for, they will find that he is perhaps the best overall three-level shotmaker in his class and that he brings a skill-set that is a perfect fit for the modern NBA. 

In an NBA draft that is full of intriguing guards, Riller is the most complete and developed scorer among them. He has little to no weaknesses as far as his overall offensive game is concerned and regularly pressures defenses from almost every area of the court. Perhaps the most premier part of Riller’s offensive skill-set is his ability to shoot off the dribble, a must for any offensively-minded guard in the NBA. He ranked in the 82nd percentile on shots-off-the-dribble in college basketball this past season, converting them at a 42% clip. 

Riller also used his elite ball-handling and combination of explosive verticality and a quick first step to become one of the best finishers around the basket in the country. He has remarkable touch around the basket, demonstrated by the fact that he ranked in the 88th percentile in finishing around the basket, converting 63% of his attempts. He has a strong frame that enables him to finish through contact with relative ease, which will make his transition to the NBA easier for him than it is for some.

Add in the fact that he can play off the ball (he shot 50% on spot-up threes) as well as he can on the ball (he ranked in the 97th percentile for points out of pick-and-rolls), and you can safely consider Grant Riller to be one of the more polished guard prospects in recent years.


Mike Schmitz (@Mike_Schmitz) Tweeted:
Prospect Play of the Day: Grant Riller is one of the draft's most prolific, efficient ISO scorers. Does a great job of creating space with step backs in either direction. The Charleston guard averaged 21.8 PTS on 55% from 2 and 36.4% from 3 last season. Can really fill it up. https://t.co/lWLsasoPjZ
Read on Twitter
?s=20

Jackson Frank (@jackfrank_jjf) Tweeted:
Grant Riller's shot-making package is pretty ridiculous. Just an absurd 3-level scorer. Big fan. https://t.co/vAuKwc13CH
Read on Twitter
?s=20

https://uproxx.com/dimemag/grant-riller-2020-nba-draft-scouting-report/

Riller off the dribble

Rillers' passing


One of the most talented offensive players in this year’s class, Riller’s marriage of burst, handle, strength, finishing and pull-up shooting are rare to find. He has the outline of a dynamic three-level scorer, one who bends defenses whenever he has the ball, and his sustained passing development could make him worthy of lead guard status down the road.


http://www.tankathon.com/players/compare?players=grant-riller--austin-rivers

As you can see for yourself, Riller beats him fairly handily in the majority of categories. But aside from that, To address your concerns over his defense, Whilst admittedly not an elite defender:
https://www.thestepien.com/2020/03/30/case-grant-riller/

- Inconsistent in multiple areas defensively but has shown solid flashes

- When locked in, he has the ability to be a solid defender for his size.

- Has light feet and moves / slides quickly on the perimeter to stay with his man.

- Generally knows where to position himself defensively.

- Stunts to the ball, tags / helps roll man when needed, and drops to take away dump off passes when big rotates.


https://www.nba.com/draft/2020/prospects/grant-riller#/
Defensive Analysis

Showing good anticipation drawing charges and getting in the passing lanes in spurts, Riller was more of a contributor defensively some games than others.  He allowed 0.91 points per one-on-one possession but held his own for stretches when he kept his feet and stayed solid.


https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.grizzlybearblues.com/platform/amp/2020/5/29/21273406/2020-nba-draft-profiles-grant-riller-memphis-grizzlies-college-charleston

In a vaccum, Riller has the tools with his solid lateral quickness and strong frame to be an effective defender in the league. 

 think Riller will at least be passable defensively in the NBA. Ja Morant at Murray State was another example of a player who had the physical tools to be good defensively but was also lackluster on that end because of the burden he had to carry in his offensive role. I doubt that Riller will be as effective as Morant was this year as a rookie, but his effort level will probably improve once he joins the professional ranks.


https://uproxx.com/dimemag/grant-riller-2020-nba-draft-scouting-report/


Believing Riller can materialize as a neutral or slight positive defensively means investing in his flashes. His lateral movement and strength empower him to stymie attacks. He beats assignments to spots and close driving lanes, drawing charges on a semi-regular basis. Off the ball, his speed and instincts are prevalent when he’s engaged, contributing to his career 2.3 percent steal rate. Riller’s quick and strong hands shine through on stunts, and he shrinks passing lanes with his awareness.



So he's seriously a high level prospect with lottery level potential. Especially in this draft. And he does have the burst and athleticism to be a decent defender, WHEN he doesn't have to carry the primary offensive load. :D
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cberry78
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Posts: 587
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Joined: Apr 21, 2015
 

Re: PHoenix Suns 2020 NBA DRAFT BIG BOARD 

Post#23 » by cberry78 » Tue Oct 6, 2020 4:14 am

Spoiler:
Ghost of Kleine wrote:
alamin330 wrote:Look at his college competition. He can’t defend guys at the college level who won’t make an nba roster. Same for his offense. He’s not worth #10.


Not to misunderstand you man, But what do you mean by " same for his offense"?
And actually he has solid tools to become a decent defender with his burst, lateral quickness and strong frame.

He’s not worth #10

I'm sorry, But this is a pretty poor mischaracterization of his upside/potential, Especially in this particular draft, Wherein there is NO CLEAR CUT TOP TIER TALENT, and moreover filled with rotation or role players by majority consensus. He at the very least has strong potential as a future impact starter/ 3 level scoring combo guard. He's easily elite offensively, And very solid in the majority of other categories, Regardless of minority/ casual opinions. That being said, It's perfectly fine to have a difference of opinion as to his projected outcome. But please take some time to dig a little deeper on your research on him, And you'll perhaps change your opinion! Or not! :dontknow:

Nevertheless, He'll absolutely be an NBA player, And quite possibly go anywhere from the range of 14- 25. And likely would be ranked much higher IF only there'd been an actual tournament to showcase his elite abilities, strong penetration skills, High IQ, and savvy, decisive play. And again, that's in addition to his primary value is as an ELITE offensive guard with very few holes in his overall game offensively!

https://www.thestepien.com/2020/03/30/case-grant-riller/

Before diving into Riller’s defense, let’s finish up touching on how talented of an offensive player he is and compare his numbers historically. Since 2008, there has been four college guards* who have met the following filters:

Height: 6’0” – 6’6” (re: guards*)

USG% > 32

TS% > 60

STL% > 2.5
- Those players are:
1- Stephen Curry.
2- Damian Lillard.
3- James Harden.
4- GRANT RILLER
.

Zach Milner (@ZachMilner13) Tweeted:
Since 2008, there have been 4 college "guards" who have met the following filters:

Height: 6'0" - 6'6" (re: "guards")
USG% > 32
TS% > 60
STL% > 2.5

Stats by @totally_t_bomb https://t.co/K6GiU8h221
Read on Twitter
?s=20

So I don't know if the Austin Rivers comparison is really appropriate for him obviously.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.peachtreehoops.com/platform/amp/2020/9/1/21198359/grant-riller-2020-nba-draft-scouting-report-atlanta-hawks-charleston-guard-video-offense-defense
Riller was one of the best offensive players in the country over the past three seasons, compiling a four-year average of 35 points per 100 possessions. He carried a usage rate above 30 the past two seasons.

Despite only being 6’3, Riller shot an insane 59.3% on two-point field goal attempts in his college career. Per Synergy Sports, he was over 63% around the basket on non-post ups, a staggering figure for a 6’3 guard without particularly elite burst or athleticism. Riller’s feel and touch sets him apart, and even though he did not play the best competition at the NCAA level, if you buy the scoring package, he is a safe bet to be a productive player.

Riller had one of the best offensive runs in mid-major history, with numbers that align with the likes of Lillard, McCollum and Curry to back up the aforementioned comparisons.

His ability to change speed and/or direction combined with his soft touch around the rim make him an extremely tough cover for any defense. Give Riller a solid screen, and good luck slowing him down. The senior ranked 97th percentile in pick-and-roll ball-handling possessions in 2019-20, and he was utilized in that role in more than 25 percent of the team’s possessions this season.

Riller also grades well off the ball, ranking in the 96th percentile on spot-ups across 86 possessions, accounting for 13.5% of his overall usage.


https://www.postandcourier.com/sports/caa-basketball-teams-figure-it-out-stop-charlestons-grant-riller-beat-the-cougars/article_da59213e-42cf-11ea-b133-afa9f4564dd7.html
Grant Riller has seen just about every defense imaginable in his 122 games at the College of Charleston.

They’ve all been designed for one purpose – to stop, or at least slow him down.

Over the last four seasons, the Orlando, Fla., native has seen his share of double and triple teams and sliced through them with ease. He’s gone up against box-in-one and triangle-in-two defenses, with opposing teams guarding him man-to-man while using a zone defense against his teammates.
Few have succeeded.

With 2,244 career points, Riller is the third-leading active scorer in the NCAA and the second-leading scorer in College of Charleston history.


https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.grizzlybearblues.com/platform/amp/2020/5/29/21273406/2020-nba-draft-profiles-grant-riller-memphis-grizzlies-college-charleston

Grant Riller:
Guard, College of Charleston

- 6’3”, 190 pounds, 23 years old, from Ocoee, Florida
- 2019-2020 season: 31 games, 33.5 minutes per game, 21.9 points, 5.1 rebounds, 3.9 assists, 50% from the field, 36% from three, 83% from the foul line.
- ACCOLADES: 3-time All-CAA first-team.
- 2018 CAA tournament MVP.
- ADVANCED STAT STRENGTHS (per Tankathon): 61 TS%, 55 eFG%, PER: 30.6

Not only should Riller be a first round pick, but there’s even an argument to be made that he should go in the lottery. However, why Riller isn’t projected as highly as he should be isn’t surprising. As a player, he combines two characteristics that NBA executives do not care for when evaluating prospects: he’s an older four-year player (not counting his redshirt season), and he played for a mid-major in a conference that most casual basketball fans have never heard before.

But if league executives are willing to look past Riller’s exterior that may not fit the exact mold of what they’re looking for, they will find that he is perhaps the best overall three-level shotmaker in his class and that he brings a skill-set that is a perfect fit for the modern NBA. 

In an NBA draft that is full of intriguing guards, Riller is the most complete and developed scorer among them. He has little to no weaknesses as far as his overall offensive game is concerned and regularly pressures defenses from almost every area of the court. Perhaps the most premier part of Riller’s offensive skill-set is his ability to shoot off the dribble, a must for any offensively-minded guard in the NBA. He ranked in the 82nd percentile on shots-off-the-dribble in college basketball this past season, converting them at a 42% clip. 

Riller also used his elite ball-handling and combination of explosive verticality and a quick first step to become one of the best finishers around the basket in the country. He has remarkable touch around the basket, demonstrated by the fact that he ranked in the 88th percentile in finishing around the basket, converting 63% of his attempts. He has a strong frame that enables him to finish through contact with relative ease, which will make his transition to the NBA easier for him than it is for some.

Add in the fact that he can play off the ball (he shot 50% on spot-up threes) as well as he can on the ball (he ranked in the 97th percentile for points out of pick-and-rolls), and you can safely consider Grant Riller to be one of the more polished guard prospects in recent years.


Mike Schmitz (@Mike_Schmitz) Tweeted:
Prospect Play of the Day: Grant Riller is one of the draft's most prolific, efficient ISO scorers. Does a great job of creating space with step backs in either direction. The Charleston guard averaged 21.8 PTS on 55% from 2 and 36.4% from 3 last season. Can really fill it up. https://t.co/lWLsasoPjZ
Read on Twitter
?s=20

Jackson Frank (@jackfrank_jjf) Tweeted:
Grant Riller's shot-making package is pretty ridiculous. Just an absurd 3-level scorer. Big fan. https://t.co/vAuKwc13CH
Read on Twitter
?s=20

https://uproxx.com/dimemag/grant-riller-2020-nba-draft-scouting-report/

Riller off the dribble

Rillers' passing


One of the most talented offensive players in this year’s class, Riller’s marriage of burst, handle, strength, finishing and pull-up shooting are rare to find. He has the outline of a dynamic three-level scorer, one who bends defenses whenever he has the ball, and his sustained passing development could make him worthy of lead guard status down the road.


http://www.tankathon.com/players/compare?players=grant-riller--austin-rivers

As you can see for yourself, Riller beats him fairly handily in the majority of categories. But aside from that, To address your concerns over his defense, Whilst admittedly not an elite defender:
https://www.thestepien.com/2020/03/30/case-grant-riller/

- Inconsistent in multiple areas defensively but has shown solid flashes

- When locked in, he has the ability to be a solid defender for his size.

- Has light feet and moves / slides quickly on the perimeter to stay with his man.

- Generally knows where to position himself defensively.

- Stunts to the ball, tags / helps roll man when needed, and drops to take away dump off passes when big rotates.


https://www.nba.com/draft/2020/prospects/grant-riller#/
Defensive Analysis

Showing good anticipation drawing charges and getting in the passing lanes in spurts, Riller was more of a contributor defensively some games than others.  He allowed 0.91 points per one-on-one possession but held his own for stretches when he kept his feet and stayed solid.


https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.grizzlybearblues.com/platform/amp/2020/5/29/21273406/2020-nba-draft-profiles-grant-riller-memphis-grizzlies-college-charleston

In a vaccum, Riller has the tools with his solid lateral quickness and strong frame to be an effective defender in the league. 

 think Riller will at least be passable defensively in the NBA. Ja Morant at Murray State was another example of a player who had the physical tools to be good defensively but was also lackluster on that end because of the burden he had to carry in his offensive role. I doubt that Riller will be as effective as Morant was this year as a rookie, but his effort level will probably improve once he joins the professional ranks.


https://uproxx.com/dimemag/grant-riller-2020-nba-draft-scouting-report/


Believing Riller can materialize as a neutral or slight positive defensively means investing in his flashes. His lateral movement and strength empower him to stymie attacks. He beats assignments to spots and close driving lanes, drawing charges on a semi-regular basis. Off the ball, his speed and instincts are prevalent when he’s engaged, contributing to his career 2.3 percent steal rate. Riller’s quick and strong hands shine through on stunts, and he shrinks passing lanes with his awareness.



So he's seriously a high level prospect with lottery level potential. Especially in this draft. And he does have the burst and athleticism to be a decent defender, WHEN he doesn't have to carry the primary offensive load. :D

OK, so I'm in the same boat as Alamin (*shudder* lol) - but seriously, his defense is a concern. He comes from a small(er) school, and while the defenses he faced were obviously geared to stop him, a quick look at his numbers shows that he kinda disappeared against stiffer (D-1) competition.

In regards to his actual defense, how good defensively was the rest of the team? What you just posted talks a lot about the potential he shows on D (for his size), but how much of that is the Booker syndrome - being the only quality player for your team on the court and having to expend so much energy on the offensive end that you have next to nothing left to put forth on the defensive side of the ball? This year Booker showed flashes of defensive competence where he played an (almost) entire season of ball with an actually well put together NBA team....does Riller suffer from 4 years of being the only talent on Charleston's team, and is that hindering his overall numbers?
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Ghost of Kleine
Analyst
Posts: 3,651
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Re: PHoenix Suns 2020 NBA DRAFT BIG BOARD 

Post#24 » by Ghost of Kleine » Tue Oct 6, 2020 6:02 am

cberry78 wrote:
Spoiler:
Ghost of Kleine wrote:
alamin330 wrote:Look at his college competition. He can’t defend guys at the college level who won’t make an nba roster. Same for his offense. He’s not worth #10.


Not to misunderstand you man, But what do you mean by " same for his offense"?
And actually he has solid tools to become a decent defender with his burst, lateral quickness and strong frame.

He’s not worth #10

I'm sorry, But this is a pretty poor mischaracterization of his upside/potential, Especially in this particular draft, Wherein there is NO CLEAR CUT TOP TIER TALENT, and moreover filled with rotation or role players by majority consensus. He at the very least has strong potential as a future impact starter/ 3 level scoring combo guard. He's easily elite offensively, And very solid in the majority of other categories, Regardless of minority/ casual opinions. That being said, It's perfectly fine to have a difference of opinion as to his projected outcome. But please take some time to dig a little deeper on your research on him, And you'll perhaps change your opinion! Or not! :dontknow:

Nevertheless, He'll absolutely be an NBA player, And quite possibly go anywhere from the range of 14- 25. And likely would be ranked much higher IF only there'd been an actual tournament to showcase his elite abilities, strong penetration skills, High IQ, and savvy, decisive play. And again, that's in addition to his primary value is as an ELITE offensive guard with very few holes in his overall game offensively!

https://www.thestepien.com/2020/03/30/case-grant-riller/

Before diving into Riller’s defense, let’s finish up touching on how talented of an offensive player he is and compare his numbers historically. Since 2008, there has been four college guards* who have met the following filters:

Height: 6’0” – 6’6” (re: guards*)

USG% > 32

TS% > 60

STL% > 2.5
- Those players are:
1- Stephen Curry.
2- Damian Lillard.
3- James Harden.
4- GRANT RILLER
.

Zach Milner (@ZachMilner13) Tweeted:
Since 2008, there have been 4 college "guards" who have met the following filters:

Height: 6'0" - 6'6" (re: "guards")
USG% > 32
TS% > 60
STL% > 2.5

Stats by @totally_t_bomb https://t.co/K6GiU8h221
Read on Twitter
?s=20

So I don't know if the Austin Rivers comparison is really appropriate for him obviously.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.peachtreehoops.com/platform/amp/2020/9/1/21198359/grant-riller-2020-nba-draft-scouting-report-atlanta-hawks-charleston-guard-video-offense-defense
Riller was one of the best offensive players in the country over the past three seasons, compiling a four-year average of 35 points per 100 possessions. He carried a usage rate above 30 the past two seasons.

Despite only being 6’3, Riller shot an insane 59.3% on two-point field goal attempts in his college career. Per Synergy Sports, he was over 63% around the basket on non-post ups, a staggering figure for a 6’3 guard without particularly elite burst or athleticism. Riller’s feel and touch sets him apart, and even though he did not play the best competition at the NCAA level, if you buy the scoring package, he is a safe bet to be a productive player.

Riller had one of the best offensive runs in mid-major history, with numbers that align with the likes of Lillard, McCollum and Curry to back up the aforementioned comparisons.

His ability to change speed and/or direction combined with his soft touch around the rim make him an extremely tough cover for any defense. Give Riller a solid screen, and good luck slowing him down. The senior ranked 97th percentile in pick-and-roll ball-handling possessions in 2019-20, and he was utilized in that role in more than 25 percent of the team’s possessions this season.

Riller also grades well off the ball, ranking in the 96th percentile on spot-ups across 86 possessions, accounting for 13.5% of his overall usage.


https://www.postandcourier.com/sports/caa-basketball-teams-figure-it-out-stop-charlestons-grant-riller-beat-the-cougars/article_da59213e-42cf-11ea-b133-afa9f4564dd7.html
Grant Riller has seen just about every defense imaginable in his 122 games at the College of Charleston.

They’ve all been designed for one purpose – to stop, or at least slow him down.

Over the last four seasons, the Orlando, Fla., native has seen his share of double and triple teams and sliced through them with ease. He’s gone up against box-in-one and triangle-in-two defenses, with opposing teams guarding him man-to-man while using a zone defense against his teammates.
Few have succeeded.

With 2,244 career points, Riller is the third-leading active scorer in the NCAA and the second-leading scorer in College of Charleston history.


https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.grizzlybearblues.com/platform/amp/2020/5/29/21273406/2020-nba-draft-profiles-grant-riller-memphis-grizzlies-college-charleston

Grant Riller:
Guard, College of Charleston

- 6’3”, 190 pounds, 23 years old, from Ocoee, Florida
- 2019-2020 season: 31 games, 33.5 minutes per game, 21.9 points, 5.1 rebounds, 3.9 assists, 50% from the field, 36% from three, 83% from the foul line.
- ACCOLADES: 3-time All-CAA first-team.
- 2018 CAA tournament MVP.
- ADVANCED STAT STRENGTHS (per Tankathon): 61 TS%, 55 eFG%, PER: 30.6

Not only should Riller be a first round pick, but there’s even an argument to be made that he should go in the lottery. However, why Riller isn’t projected as highly as he should be isn’t surprising. As a player, he combines two characteristics that NBA executives do not care for when evaluating prospects: he’s an older four-year player (not counting his redshirt season), and he played for a mid-major in a conference that most casual basketball fans have never heard before.

But if league executives are willing to look past Riller’s exterior that may not fit the exact mold of what they’re looking for, they will find that he is perhaps the best overall three-level shotmaker in his class and that he brings a skill-set that is a perfect fit for the modern NBA. 

In an NBA draft that is full of intriguing guards, Riller is the most complete and developed scorer among them. He has little to no weaknesses as far as his overall offensive game is concerned and regularly pressures defenses from almost every area of the court. Perhaps the most premier part of Riller’s offensive skill-set is his ability to shoot off the dribble, a must for any offensively-minded guard in the NBA. He ranked in the 82nd percentile on shots-off-the-dribble in college basketball this past season, converting them at a 42% clip. 

Riller also used his elite ball-handling and combination of explosive verticality and a quick first step to become one of the best finishers around the basket in the country. He has remarkable touch around the basket, demonstrated by the fact that he ranked in the 88th percentile in finishing around the basket, converting 63% of his attempts. He has a strong frame that enables him to finish through contact with relative ease, which will make his transition to the NBA easier for him than it is for some.

Add in the fact that he can play off the ball (he shot 50% on spot-up threes) as well as he can on the ball (he ranked in the 97th percentile for points out of pick-and-rolls), and you can safely consider Grant Riller to be one of the more polished guard prospects in recent years.


Mike Schmitz (@Mike_Schmitz) Tweeted:
Prospect Play of the Day: Grant Riller is one of the draft's most prolific, efficient ISO scorers. Does a great job of creating space with step backs in either direction. The Charleston guard averaged 21.8 PTS on 55% from 2 and 36.4% from 3 last season. Can really fill it up. https://t.co/lWLsasoPjZ
Read on Twitter
?s=20

Jackson Frank (@jackfrank_jjf) Tweeted:
Grant Riller's shot-making package is pretty ridiculous. Just an absurd 3-level scorer. Big fan. https://t.co/vAuKwc13CH
Read on Twitter
?s=20

https://uproxx.com/dimemag/grant-riller-2020-nba-draft-scouting-report/

Riller off the dribble

Rillers' passing


One of the most talented offensive players in this year’s class, Riller’s marriage of burst, handle, strength, finishing and pull-up shooting are rare to find. He has the outline of a dynamic three-level scorer, one who bends defenses whenever he has the ball, and his sustained passing development could make him worthy of lead guard status down the road.


http://www.tankathon.com/players/compare?players=grant-riller--austin-rivers

As you can see for yourself, Riller beats him fairly handily in the majority of categories. But aside from that, To address your concerns over his defense, Whilst admittedly not an elite defender:
https://www.thestepien.com/2020/03/30/case-grant-riller/

- Inconsistent in multiple areas defensively but has shown solid flashes

- When locked in, he has the ability to be a solid defender for his size.

- Has light feet and moves / slides quickly on the perimeter to stay with his man.

- Generally knows where to position himself defensively.

- Stunts to the ball, tags / helps roll man when needed, and drops to take away dump off passes when big rotates.


https://www.nba.com/draft/2020/prospects/grant-riller#/
Defensive Analysis

Showing good anticipation drawing charges and getting in the passing lanes in spurts, Riller was more of a contributor defensively some games than others.  He allowed 0.91 points per one-on-one possession but held his own for stretches when he kept his feet and stayed solid.


https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.grizzlybearblues.com/platform/amp/2020/5/29/21273406/2020-nba-draft-profiles-grant-riller-memphis-grizzlies-college-charleston

In a vaccum, Riller has the tools with his solid lateral quickness and strong frame to be an effective defender in the league. 

 think Riller will at least be passable defensively in the NBA. Ja Morant at Murray State was another example of a player who had the physical tools to be good defensively but was also lackluster on that end because of the burden he had to carry in his offensive role. I doubt that Riller will be as effective as Morant was this year as a rookie, but his effort level will probably improve once he joins the professional ranks.


https://uproxx.com/dimemag/grant-riller-2020-nba-draft-scouting-report/


Believing Riller can materialize as a neutral or slight positive defensively means investing in his flashes. His lateral movement and strength empower him to stymie attacks. He beats assignments to spots and close driving lanes, drawing charges on a semi-regular basis. Off the ball, his speed and instincts are prevalent when he’s engaged, contributing to his career 2.3 percent steal rate. Riller’s quick and strong hands shine through on stunts, and he shrinks passing lanes with his awareness.



So he's seriously a high level prospect with lottery level potential. Especially in this draft. And he does have the burst and athleticism to be a decent defender, WHEN he doesn't have to carry the primary offensive load. :D

OK, so I'm in the same boat as Alamin (*shudder* lol) - but seriously, his defense is a concern. He comes from a small(er) school, and while the defenses he faced were obviously geared to stop him, a quick look at his numbers shows that he kinda disappeared against stiffer (D-1) competition.

In regards to his actual defense, how good defensively was the rest of the team? What you just posted talks a lot about the potential he shows on D (for his size), but how much of that is the Booker syndrome - being the only quality player for your team on the court and having to expend so much energy on the offensive end that you have next to nothing left to put forth on the defensive side of the ball? This year Booker showed flashes of defensive competence where he played an (almost) entire season of ball with an actually well put together NBA team....does Riller suffer from 4 years of being the only talent on Charleston's team, and is that hindering his overall numbers?


I strongly believe that the answer to that question is yes! Varying articles, scouts, etc. cited his athletic ability to become a passable to solid defender. As well as the videos that I posted illustrating first his poor defense as a result of being a step slow or behind, Which I would attribute to fatigue, As well as defensive awareness needing further development. To me this is indicative of a high level offensive player exhausting himself on the offensive end, And thusly running out of gas on the defensive end. :wink:

You can look at the videos posted of good defense, wherein he beats his defenders to position, Gets charges, deflections, steals, And that should absolutely illustrate his upward defensive potential being present. His athleticism also has been noted in varying articles as a solid foundation towards an upward trajectory for his defensive improvement. We all understand, Even at the professional level, That as a team gets tired or " gassed" defensive lapses and diminished efforts on rotations, help defense, etc. Become more frequent. I think naturally the same would/ could apply to relatively unknown potential star players that don't really have a strong supporting cast, Causing them to shoulder a much larger offensive burden than they otherwise would on a higher tiered team with multiple premium players/ talent.

Furthermore, The same premise should of course be reasonably applied to the argument of his struggles against bigger schools in larger more prominent D- 1 conferences. As it only stands to reason that with him being pretty much their ( Charleston's) only offensive weapon, That he of course would exhaust himself faster against stronger schools with a deeper talent rotation and much stronger supporting cast than what he has at Charleston. Here's a look at the Top 3 scorers after Riller on the Cougars' roster:

https://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/team/stats/_/id/232


- Brevin Galloway: 11 points/ 2 rebounds/ 1.5 assists/ 41% FG.
- Jaylen McManus: 8 points/ 4 rebounds/ 0 assists/ 40% FG.
- Sean Miller: 8 points/ 5 rebounds/ 1 assist/ 48% FG (* There other star player)?

So does it seem like he has a strong supporting cast overall? And with two of the three players only averaging around 8 points per game for the season. And two of the 3 only having a FG of around 40%? And out of their entire team, The only other double digit scorer aside from Riller is Galloway with an impressive 11 points on the season! :-? So yeah, I could see how he might struggle against much stronger competition with deeper talent levels at multiple positions and better supporting casts. Lastly, How good was the rest of the team defensively?

https://www.teamrankings.com/ncaa-basketball/team/charleston-cougars

Team Rankings.com

Charleston Cougars

KEY DEFENSIVE STATS
- Opponents points/game: 68.6
- Opponents Effective FG%: 49.1%
- Offensive Rebounds/ game: 6.6
- Defensive Rebounds/ game: 22.8
- Blocks/game: 2.5
- Steals/ game: 6.7
- PF per/ game: 17.0


https://cofcsports.com/sports/mens-basketball/stats

Overall they're stats indicate that they're pretty mediocre both at offense and defense it seems. With only an average points margin of 2.2 points. Which again makes sense when you figure they only really have one 20 point scorer on the entire team in Riller. So again, considering Rillers' 21 point per game season average , and the next highest only being around 11 points on nearly 30 minutes per game ( ** only 3 minutes less than Riller, And I'd say it's a very reasonable assumption that Riller is struggling because he has to carry the load for the team, And then you put him up individually against D1 teams with multiple high level talented contributors at varying positions, And it's not surprising that he would struggle to overcome such odds. So yes, I absolutely believe that it's a case of " Booker Syndrome." Give him an actual solid supporting cast, And I'd anticipate much greater improvements. He's definitely very good! But not nearly good enough to single handedly beat an entire team by himself.

https://www.postandcourier.com/sports/college-of-charleston-grabs-first-place-in-caa-with-win-over-william-mary/article_a903113a-493c-11ea-a97b-ef5feea1c998.html


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College of Charleston grabs first place in CAA with win over William & Mary

By Andrew Miller apmiller@postandcourier.comFeb 6, 2020 Updated Sep 14, 2020 

1 of 5

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The College of Charleston’s Brevin Galloway makes his way to score past the William & Mary defense Thursday, Feb. 6, 2020, at TD Arena. Grace Beahm Alford/Staff

By Grace Beahm Alford gbeahm@postandcourier.com

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The College of Charleston’s Grant Riller passes William & Mary’s Bryce Brnes during their game Thursday, Feb. 6, 2020, at TD Arena. Grace Beahm Alford/Staff

By Grace Beahm Alford gbeahm@postandcourier.com

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The College of Charleston’s Grant Riller gets the rebound during their game against William & Mary Thursday, Feb. 6, 2020, at TD Arena. Grace Beahm Alford/Staff

By Grace Beahm Alford gbeahm@postandcourier.com

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The College of Charleston’s Grant Riller passes the ball past William & Mary’s Thornton Scott during their game Thursday, Feb. 6, 2020, at TD Arena. Grace Beahm Alford/Staff

By Grace Beahm Alford gbeahm@postandcourier.com

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The College of Charleston’s Sam Miller shoots the ball over William & Mary’s Nathan Knight during their game Thursday, Feb. 6, 2020, at TD Arena. Grace Beahm Alford/Staff

By Grace Beahm Alford gbeahm@postandcourier.com

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There were nearly a dozen NBA scouts courtside Thursday night at TD Arena to watch two of the best mid-major players – College of Charleston’s Grant Riller and William & Mary’s Nathan Knight – battle it out for first place in the Colonial Athletic Association.

While Knight played well for the Tribe, Charleston’s Brevin Galloway literally stole the show for the Cougars.

Galloway finished with 23 points and five steals and Sam Miller added 13 points to lead College of Charleston past William & Mary, 68-50, Thursday night before a raucous crowd of 4,186 at TD Arena.

With the victory, the Cougars (15-9, 9-3) took over sole possession of first place in the CAA with six games left in the regular season. The Tribe dropped to 16-9 and 8-4.

Knight and Riller are among the top 10 active scorers in Division I basketball. Knight came into the game with 1,966 career points, good for 10th place overall, while Riller is third with 2,308 points in four seasons with the Cougars.

The 6-10 Knight certainly did his part impressing the NBA scouts with his size and shooting touch around the basket. Knight finished with 28 points and 18 rebounds. It was Knight’s ninth double-double in the last 11 games and his nation-leading 19th double-doubles this season.

“People asked me ‘how are we going to stop (Knight),”’ said College of Charleston coach Earl Grant. “Well, you are probably not going to stop him. You can try, but you’ve got to make sure he doesn’t get easy baskets and I thought we did a pretty good job of that. He’s going to get his points, we just wanted to contest everything and make it hard on him and the rest of their shooters.”

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Riller poured in 64 points in two games last week, including a season-high 36-point outing against James Madison last Thursday night on the road. The 6-3 senior had a relatively quiet game with 10 points.

It didn’t matter because Galloway more than took up the scoring slack.

The 6-2 junior had one his best nights shooting, going 9 of 13 from the field, including 4 of 8 from 3-point range.

“You’ve got give a guy like that some freedom and some rope,” Grant said. “He’s very impulsive. He hasn’t seen a shot he doesn’t like. Sometimes, maybe he’ll take one he doesn’t need to take. He’s our greenlight guy. He always passes the green light tests in the summer. A green light guy is if you get open and you think you can make it, take it. Take the ones you think you can make and Brevin thinks he can make them all.”

With Riller being double-teamed most of the game, he was more than happy to give up the ball to his teammates, especially Galloway.

“Brevin came out here and did what we know he can do and that’s hit shots,” Riller said. “He defended really well, was active. It was a big game and we needed it from him.”

The Cougars have long relied on Riller’s scoring to win games, but Charleston won this time with a smothering defense.


So again, Basically Yes! These concerns are primarily a product of Charleston depending heavily on Rillers' scoring to win games ( as cited above). And when constantly double and triple teamed, It can be really difficult to get open looks and get in a rythym to carry an offense with the next best players being mediocre shooters ( 40% FG%) and averaging only 11 points and 8 points additionally on average.

:nod:
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cberry78
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Re: PHoenix Suns 2020 NBA DRAFT BIG BOARD 

Post#25 » by cberry78 » Tue Oct 6, 2020 7:06 am

Ghost of Kleine wrote:
cberry78 wrote:
Spoiler:
Ghost of Kleine wrote:
Not to misunderstand you man, But what do you mean by " same for his offense"?
And actually he has solid tools to become a decent defender with his burst, lateral quickness and strong frame.


I'm sorry, But this is a pretty poor mischaracterization of his upside/potential, Especially in this particular draft, Wherein there is NO CLEAR CUT TOP TIER TALENT, and moreover filled with rotation or role players by majority consensus. He at the very least has strong potential as a future impact starter/ 3 level scoring combo guard. He's easily elite offensively, And very solid in the majority of other categories, Regardless of minority/ casual opinions. That being said, It's perfectly fine to have a difference of opinion as to his projected outcome. But please take some time to dig a little deeper on your research on him, And you'll perhaps change your opinion! Or not! :dontknow:

Nevertheless, He'll absolutely be an NBA player, And quite possibly go anywhere from the range of 14- 25. And likely would be ranked much higher IF only there'd been an actual tournament to showcase his elite abilities, strong penetration skills, High IQ, and savvy, decisive play. And again, that's in addition to his primary value is as an ELITE offensive guard with very few holes in his overall game offensively!

https://www.thestepien.com/2020/03/30/case-grant-riller/

.

Zach Milner (@ZachMilner13) Tweeted:
Since 2008, there have been 4 college "guards" who have met the following filters:

Height: 6'0" - 6'6" (re: "guards")
USG% > 32
TS% > 60
STL% > 2.5

Stats by @totally_t_bomb https://t.co/K6GiU8h221
Read on Twitter
?s=20

So I don't know if the Austin Rivers comparison is really appropriate for him obviously.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.peachtreehoops.com/platform/amp/2020/9/1/21198359/grant-riller-2020-nba-draft-scouting-report-atlanta-hawks-charleston-guard-video-offense-defense


https://www.postandcourier.com/sports/caa-basketball-teams-figure-it-out-stop-charlestons-grant-riller-beat-the-cougars/article_da59213e-42cf-11ea-b133-afa9f4564dd7.html


https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.grizzlybearblues.com/platform/amp/2020/5/29/21273406/2020-nba-draft-profiles-grant-riller-memphis-grizzlies-college-charleston



Mike Schmitz (@Mike_Schmitz) Tweeted:
Prospect Play of the Day: Grant Riller is one of the draft's most prolific, efficient ISO scorers. Does a great job of creating space with step backs in either direction. The Charleston guard averaged 21.8 PTS on 55% from 2 and 36.4% from 3 last season. Can really fill it up. https://t.co/lWLsasoPjZ
Read on Twitter
?s=20

Jackson Frank (@jackfrank_jjf) Tweeted:
Grant Riller's shot-making package is pretty ridiculous. Just an absurd 3-level scorer. Big fan. https://t.co/vAuKwc13CH
Read on Twitter
?s=20

https://uproxx.com/dimemag/grant-riller-2020-nba-draft-scouting-report/



http://www.tankathon.com/players/compare?players=grant-riller--austin-rivers

As you can see for yourself, Riller beats him fairly handily in the majority of categories. But aside from that, To address your concerns over his defense, Whilst admittedly not an elite defender:
https://www.thestepien.com/2020/03/30/case-grant-riller/



https://www.nba.com/draft/2020/prospects/grant-riller#/


https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.grizzlybearblues.com/platform/amp/2020/5/29/21273406/2020-nba-draft-profiles-grant-riller-memphis-grizzlies-college-charleston



https://uproxx.com/dimemag/grant-riller-2020-nba-draft-scouting-report/




So he's seriously a high level prospect with lottery level potential. Especially in this draft. And he does have the burst and athleticism to be a decent defender, WHEN he doesn't have to carry the primary offensive load. :D

OK, so I'm in the same boat as Alamin (*shudder* lol) - but seriously, his defense is a concern. He comes from a small(er) school, and while the defenses he faced were obviously geared to stop him, a quick look at his numbers shows that he kinda disappeared against stiffer (D-1) competition.

In regards to his actual defense, how good defensively was the rest of the team? What you just posted talks a lot about the potential he shows on D (for his size), but how much of that is the Booker syndrome - being the only quality player for your team on the court and having to expend so much energy on the offensive end that you have next to nothing left to put forth on the defensive side of the ball? This year Booker showed flashes of defensive competence where he played an (almost) entire season of ball with an actually well put together NBA team....does Riller suffer from 4 years of being the only talent on Charleston's team, and is that hindering his overall numbers?


I strongly believe that the answer to that question is yes! Varying articles, scouts, etc. cited his athletic ability to become a passable to solid defender. As well as the videos that I posted illustrating first his poor defense as a result of being a step slow or behind, Which I would attribute to fatigue, As well as defensive awareness needing further development. To me this is indicative of a high level offensive player exhausting himself on the offensive end, And thusly running out of gas on the defensive end. :wink:

You can look at the videos posted of good defense, wherein he beats his defenders to position, Gets charges, deflections, steals, And that should absolutely illustrate his upward defensive potential being present. His athleticism also has been noted in varying articles as a solid foundation towards an upward trajectory for his defensive improvement. We all understand, Even at the professional level, That as a team gets tired or " gassed" defensive lapses and diminished efforts on rotations, help defense, etc. Become more frequent. I think naturally the same would/ could apply to relatively unknown potential star players that don't really have a strong supporting cast, Causing them to shoulder a much larger offensive burden than they otherwise would on a higher tiered team with multiple premium players/ talent.

Furthermore, The same premise should of course be reasonably applied to the argument of his struggles against bigger schools in larger more prominent D- 1 conferences. As it only stands to reason that with him being pretty much their ( Charleston's) only offensive weapon, That he of course would exhaust himself faster against stronger schools with a deeper talent rotation and much stronger supporting cast than what he has at Charleston. Here's a look at the Top 3 scorers after Riller on the Cougars' roster:

https://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/team/stats/_/id/232


- Brevin Galloway: 11 points/ 2 rebounds/ 1.5 assists/ 41% FG.
- Jaylen McManus: 8 points/ 4 rebounds/ 0 assists/ 40% FG.
- Sean Miller: 8 points/ 5 rebounds/ 1 assist/ 48% FG (* There other star player)?

So does it seem like he has a strong supporting cast overall? And with two of the three players only averaging around 8 points per game for the season. And two of the 3 only having a FG of around 40%? And out of their entire team, The only other double digit scorer aside from Riller is Galloway with an impressive 11 points on the season! :-? So yeah, I could see how he might struggle against much stronger competition with deeper talent levels at multiple positions and better supporting casts. Lastly, How good was the rest of the team defensively?

https://www.teamrankings.com/ncaa-basketball/team/charleston-cougars

Team Rankings.com

Charleston Cougars

KEY DEFENSIVE STATS
- Opponents points/game: 68.6
- Opponents Effective FG%: 49.1%
- Offensive Rebounds/ game: 6.6
- Defensive Rebounds/ game: 22.8
- Blocks/game: 2.5
- Steals/ game: 6.7
- PF per/ game: 17.0


https://cofcsports.com/sports/mens-basketball/stats

Overall they're stats indicate that they're pretty mediocre both at offense and defense it seems. With only an average points margin of 2.2 points. Which again makes sense when you figure they only really have one 20 point scorer on the entire team in Riller. So again, considering Rillers' 21 point per game season average , and the next highest only being around 11 points on nearly 30 minutes per game ( ** only 3 minutes less than Riller, And I'd say it's a very reasonable assumption that Riller is struggling because he has to carry the load for the team, And then you put him up individually against D1 teams with multiple high level talented contributors at varying positions, And it's not surprising that he would struggle to overcome such odds. So yes, I absolutely believe that it's a case of " Booker Syndrome." Give him an actual solid supporting cast, And I'd anticipate much greater improvements. He's definitely very good! But not nearly good enough to single handedly beat an entire team by himself.

https://www.postandcourier.com/sports/college-of-charleston-grabs-first-place-in-caa-with-win-over-william-mary/article_a903113a-493c-11ea-a97b-ef5feea1c998.html


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College of Charleston grabs first place in CAA with win over William & Mary

By Andrew Miller apmiller@postandcourier.comFeb 6, 2020 Updated Sep 14, 2020 

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The College of Charleston’s Brevin Galloway makes his way to score past the William & Mary defense Thursday, Feb. 6, 2020, at TD Arena. Grace Beahm Alford/Staff

By Grace Beahm Alford gbeahm@postandcourier.com

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The College of Charleston’s Grant Riller passes William & Mary’s Bryce Brnes during their game Thursday, Feb. 6, 2020, at TD Arena. Grace Beahm Alford/Staff

By Grace Beahm Alford gbeahm@postandcourier.com

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The College of Charleston’s Grant Riller gets the rebound during their game against William & Mary Thursday, Feb. 6, 2020, at TD Arena. Grace Beahm Alford/Staff

By Grace Beahm Alford gbeahm@postandcourier.com

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The College of Charleston’s Grant Riller passes the ball past William & Mary’s Thornton Scott during their game Thursday, Feb. 6, 2020, at TD Arena. Grace Beahm Alford/Staff

By Grace Beahm Alford gbeahm@postandcourier.com

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The College of Charleston’s Sam Miller shoots the ball over William & Mary’s Nathan Knight during their game Thursday, Feb. 6, 2020, at TD Arena. Grace Beahm Alford/Staff

By Grace Beahm Alford gbeahm@postandcourier.com

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There were nearly a dozen NBA scouts courtside Thursday night at TD Arena to watch two of the best mid-major players – College of Charleston’s Grant Riller and William & Mary’s Nathan Knight – battle it out for first place in the Colonial Athletic Association.

While Knight played well for the Tribe, Charleston’s Brevin Galloway literally stole the show for the Cougars.

Galloway finished with 23 points and five steals and Sam Miller added 13 points to lead College of Charleston past William & Mary, 68-50, Thursday night before a raucous crowd of 4,186 at TD Arena.

With the victory, the Cougars (15-9, 9-3) took over sole possession of first place in the CAA with six games left in the regular season. The Tribe dropped to 16-9 and 8-4.

Knight and Riller are among the top 10 active scorers in Division I basketball. Knight came into the game with 1,966 career points, good for 10th place overall, while Riller is third with 2,308 points in four seasons with the Cougars.

The 6-10 Knight certainly did his part impressing the NBA scouts with his size and shooting touch around the basket. Knight finished with 28 points and 18 rebounds. It was Knight’s ninth double-double in the last 11 games and his nation-leading 19th double-doubles this season.

“People asked me ‘how are we going to stop (Knight),”’ said College of Charleston coach Earl Grant. “Well, you are probably not going to stop him. You can try, but you’ve got to make sure he doesn’t get easy baskets and I thought we did a pretty good job of that. He’s going to get his points, we just wanted to contest everything and make it hard on him and the rest of their shooters.”

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William & Mary ends College of Charleston six-game win streak

By Andrew Miller apmiller@postandcourier.com

Riller poured in 64 points in two games last week, including a season-high 36-point outing against James Madison last Thursday night on the road. The 6-3 senior had a relatively quiet game with 10 points.

It didn’t matter because Galloway more than took up the scoring slack.

The 6-2 junior had one his best nights shooting, going 9 of 13 from the field, including 4 of 8 from 3-point range.

“You’ve got give a guy like that some freedom and some rope,” Grant said. “He’s very impulsive. He hasn’t seen a shot he doesn’t like. Sometimes, maybe he’ll take one he doesn’t need to take. He’s our greenlight guy. He always passes the green light tests in the summer. A green light guy is if you get open and you think you can make it, take it. Take the ones you think you can make and Brevin thinks he can make them all.”

With Riller being double-teamed most of the game, he was more than happy to give up the ball to his teammates, especially Galloway.

“Brevin came out here and did what we know he can do and that’s hit shots,” Riller said. “He defended really well, was active. It was a big game and we needed it from him.”

The Cougars have long relied on Riller’s scoring to win games, but Charleston won this time with a smothering defense.

So again, Basically Yes! These concerns are primarily a product of Charleston depending heavily on Rillers' scoring to win games ( as cited above). And when constantly double and triple teamed, It can be really difficult to get open looks and get in a rythym to carry an offense with the next best players being mediocre shooters ( 40% FG%) and averaging only 11 points and 8 points additionally on average.

:nod:

OK, you've convinced me :D , Riller is now 3rd on my list behind Toppin and Smith. I think #10 is too high for him or Smith though...maybe mid 1st (16 or so, I've seen some of your trades get us there), but I don't want to give up Oubre for anything but maybe the #2 ( to draft Toppin). I don't think another guard needs to be as high on our list after the bubble and the emergence (? - fools gold?) of Cam Payne....but we are still DRASTICALLY lacking at the 4, even with how CamJ showed up in the bubble.
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Ghost of Kleine
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Re: PHoenix Suns 2020 NBA DRAFT BIG BOARD 

Post#26 » by Ghost of Kleine » Tue Oct 6, 2020 3:10 pm

cberry78 wrote:
Ghost of Kleine wrote:
cberry78 wrote:
Spoiler:

OK, so I'm in the same boat as Alamin (*shudder* lol) - but seriously, his defense is a concern. He comes from a small(er) school, and while the defenses he faced were obviously geared to stop him, a quick look at his numbers shows that he kinda disappeared against stiffer (D-1) competition.

In regards to his actual defense, how good defensively was the rest of the team? What you just posted talks a lot about the potential he shows on D (for his size), but how much of that is the Booker syndrome - being the only quality player for your team on the court and having to expend so much energy on the offensive end that you have next to nothing left to put forth on the defensive side of the ball? This year Booker showed flashes of defensive competence where he played an (almost) entire season of ball with an actually well put together NBA team....does Riller suffer from 4 years of being the only talent on Charleston's team, and is that hindering his overall numbers?


I strongly believe that the answer to that question is yes! Varying articles, scouts, etc. cited his athletic ability to become a passable to solid defender. As well as the videos that I posted illustrating first his poor defense as a result of being a step slow or behind, Which I would attribute to fatigue, As well as defensive awareness needing further development. To me this is indicative of a high level offensive player exhausting himself on the offensive end, And thusly running out of gas on the defensive end. :wink:

You can look at the videos posted of good defense, wherein he beats his defenders to position, Gets charges, deflections, steals, And that should absolutely illustrate his upward defensive potential being present. His athleticism also has been noted in varying articles as a solid foundation towards an upward trajectory for his defensive improvement. We all understand, Even at the professional level, That as a team gets tired or " gassed" defensive lapses and diminished efforts on rotations, help defense, etc. Become more frequent. I think naturally the same would/ could apply to relatively unknown potential star players that don't really have a strong supporting cast, Causing them to shoulder a much larger offensive burden than they otherwise would on a higher tiered team with multiple premium players/ talent.

Furthermore, The same premise should of course be reasonably applied to the argument of his struggles against bigger schools in larger more prominent D- 1 conferences. As it only stands to reason that with him being pretty much their ( Charleston's) only offensive weapon, That he of course would exhaust himself faster against stronger schools with a deeper talent rotation and much stronger supporting cast than what he has at Charleston. Here's a look at the Top 3 scorers after Riller on the Cougars' roster:

https://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/team/stats/_/id/232


- Brevin Galloway: 11 points/ 2 rebounds/ 1.5 assists/ 41% FG.
- Jaylen McManus: 8 points/ 4 rebounds/ 0 assists/ 40% FG.
- Sean Miller: 8 points/ 5 rebounds/ 1 assist/ 48% FG (* There other star player)?

So does it seem like he has a strong supporting cast overall? And with two of the three players only averaging around 8 points per game for the season. And two of the 3 only having a FG of around 40%? And out of their entire team, The only other double digit scorer aside from Riller is Galloway with an impressive 11 points on the season! :-? So yeah, I could see how he might struggle against much stronger competition with deeper talent levels at multiple positions and better supporting casts. Lastly, How good was the rest of the team defensively?

https://www.teamrankings.com/ncaa-basketball/team/charleston-cougars

Team Rankings.com

Charleston Cougars

KEY DEFENSIVE STATS
- Opponents points/game: 68.6
- Opponents Effective FG%: 49.1%
- Offensive Rebounds/ game: 6.6
- Defensive Rebounds/ game: 22.8
- Blocks/game: 2.5
- Steals/ game: 6.7
- PF per/ game: 17.0


https://cofcsports.com/sports/mens-basketball/stats

Overall they're stats indicate that they're pretty mediocre both at offense and defense it seems. With only an average points margin of 2.2 points. Which again makes sense when you figure they only really have one 20 point scorer on the entire team in Riller. So again, considering Rillers' 21 point per game season average , and the next highest only being around 11 points on nearly 30 minutes per game ( ** only 3 minutes less than Riller, And I'd say it's a very reasonable assumption that Riller is struggling because he has to carry the load for the team, And then you put him up individually against D1 teams with multiple high level talented contributors at varying positions, And it's not surprising that he would struggle to overcome such odds. So yes, I absolutely believe that it's a case of " Booker Syndrome." Give him an actual solid supporting cast, And I'd anticipate much greater improvements. He's definitely very good! But not nearly good enough to single handedly beat an entire team by himself.

https://www.postandcourier.com/sports/college-of-charleston-grabs-first-place-in-caa-with-win-over-william-mary/article_a903113a-493c-11ea-a97b-ef5feea1c998.html


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College of Charleston grabs first place in CAA with win over William & Mary

By Andrew Miller apmiller@postandcourier.comFeb 6, 2020 Updated Sep 14, 2020 

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The College of Charleston’s Brevin Galloway makes his way to score past the William & Mary defense Thursday, Feb. 6, 2020, at TD Arena. Grace Beahm Alford/Staff

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The College of Charleston’s Grant Riller passes William & Mary’s Bryce Brnes during their game Thursday, Feb. 6, 2020, at TD Arena. Grace Beahm Alford/Staff

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The College of Charleston’s Grant Riller gets the rebound during their game against William & Mary Thursday, Feb. 6, 2020, at TD Arena. Grace Beahm Alford/Staff

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The College of Charleston’s Grant Riller passes the ball past William & Mary’s Thornton Scott during their game Thursday, Feb. 6, 2020, at TD Arena. Grace Beahm Alford/Staff

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The College of Charleston’s Sam Miller shoots the ball over William & Mary’s Nathan Knight during their game Thursday, Feb. 6, 2020, at TD Arena. Grace Beahm Alford/Staff

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There were nearly a dozen NBA scouts courtside Thursday night at TD Arena to watch two of the best mid-major players – College of Charleston’s Grant Riller and William & Mary’s Nathan Knight – battle it out for first place in the Colonial Athletic Association.

While Knight played well for the Tribe, Charleston’s Brevin Galloway literally stole the show for the Cougars.

Galloway finished with 23 points and five steals and Sam Miller added 13 points to lead College of Charleston past William & Mary, 68-50, Thursday night before a raucous crowd of 4,186 at TD Arena.

With the victory, the Cougars (15-9, 9-3) took over sole possession of first place in the CAA with six games left in the regular season. The Tribe dropped to 16-9 and 8-4.

Knight and Riller are among the top 10 active scorers in Division I basketball. Knight came into the game with 1,966 career points, good for 10th place overall, while Riller is third with 2,308 points in four seasons with the Cougars.

The 6-10 Knight certainly did his part impressing the NBA scouts with his size and shooting touch around the basket. Knight finished with 28 points and 18 rebounds. It was Knight’s ninth double-double in the last 11 games and his nation-leading 19th double-doubles this season.

“People asked me ‘how are we going to stop (Knight),”’ said College of Charleston coach Earl Grant. “Well, you are probably not going to stop him. You can try, but you’ve got to make sure he doesn’t get easy baskets and I thought we did a pretty good job of that. He’s going to get his points, we just wanted to contest everything and make it hard on him and the rest of their shooters.”

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William & Mary ends College of Charleston six-game win streak

By Andrew Miller apmiller@postandcourier.com

Riller poured in 64 points in two games last week, including a season-high 36-point outing against James Madison last Thursday night on the road. The 6-3 senior had a relatively quiet game with 10 points.

It didn’t matter because Galloway more than took up the scoring slack.

The 6-2 junior had one his best nights shooting, going 9 of 13 from the field, including 4 of 8 from 3-point range.

“You’ve got give a guy like that some freedom and some rope,” Grant said. “He’s very impulsive. He hasn’t seen a shot he doesn’t like. Sometimes, maybe he’ll take one he doesn’t need to take. He’s our greenlight guy. He always passes the green light tests in the summer. A green light guy is if you get open and you think you can make it, take it. Take the ones you think you can make and Brevin thinks he can make them all.”

With Riller being double-teamed most of the game, he was more than happy to give up the ball to his teammates, especially Galloway.

“Brevin came out here and did what we know he can do and that’s hit shots,” Riller said. “He defended really well, was active. It was a big game and we needed it from him.”

The Cougars have long relied on Riller’s scoring to win games, but Charleston won this time with a smothering defense.

So again, Basically Yes! These concerns are primarily a product of Charleston depending heavily on Rillers' scoring to win games ( as cited above). And when constantly double and triple teamed, It can be really difficult to get open looks and get in a rythym to carry an offense with the next best players being mediocre shooters ( 40% FG%) and averaging only 11 points and 8 points additionally on average.

:nod:

OK, you've convinced me :D , Riller is now 3rd on my list behind Toppin and Smith. I think #10 is too high for him or Smith though...maybe mid 1st (16 or so, I've seen some of your trades get us there), but I don't want to give up Oubre for anything but maybe the #2 ( to draft Toppin). I don't think another guard needs to be as high on our list after the bubble and the emergence (? - fools gold?) of Cam Payne....but we are still DRASTICALLY lacking at the 4, even with how CamJ showed up in the bubble.


I agree with you that I really wouldn't prefer to take him solely at 10, Especially when/If I could likely trade back and still get him. Essentially I'd prefer for us to use the 10th pick in a trade back scenario for a veteran asset and a later pick. OR perhaps in a trade back scenario for multiple picks ( ie; a late first and an early 2nd) for a value swing on a prospect at a position of need? Maybe the 5 with Baynes likely leaving?

I also agree that we are pretty thin in the frontcourt, And I again expect us to become even thinner once Baynes leaves, We look to decline Kaminskys' team option, and then look to replace ( find an upgrade for) Diallo/ Okobo. So that'd potentially be 3-4 rotation spots needing to be filled, 5 IF we replace Carter too ( which I hope that we don't do)! I'd rather move on from Payne and replace him with Riller or Lewis or Hayes IF we had to choose between the two. That's not to say that Cam wasn't great in the bubble, But rather that I just don't see him sustaining that level of production. But with Carter, He's proven to be a valuable defensive asset regardless of his surprising recent offensive contributions.


Also, I'm genuinely on board with keeping Oubre ( ** As long as we can expect to reasonably resign him for no more than something around 17-18 million max) We can always offer benchmark incentive increases ( if he's seeking more). I'd offer benchmark incentive increases (bonuses) for improvements on playmaking ( assists) and defensive/ offensive percentage increases. Or I'd offer a front loaded contract with decreasing yearly salary, similar to that of Aaron Gordons' contract, But with the stipulation of his willingness to accept a situational 6th man role as needed. More or less interchangeably with Cam. Also, I'd look to add ( via draft) a long, athletic, very switchable versatile defender that could guard multiple positions ( 3-5) and still offer a modicum of floor spacing too. I'd look for them to be a strong defensive compliment to Oubre and Cam. With the bonus being that they might also provide some insurance at the 5 too.

It's really not that I want to continuously add a never ending rotation of young prospects. Rather that I understand/ value the importance of low cost positional depth, That would provide us with a modicum of insurance against potential roster injuries, As well as to help spell our core starters, And keep them fresh with the hopes of preventing fatigue related injuries, etc. Additionally, By adding low cost positional depth via the draft, we are afforded greater cap flexibility to allocate larger portions of money to more premium veteran free agent options that would otherwise be outside of our price range. And if by chance, any of these low cost prospects actually outplay their minimal contracts, Then we've also acquired premium trade assets for our asset cache. This is a "win/ win" scenario for us obviously. Just as long as we're not careless with our scouting analysis.

And for the record, I believe that the best potential trade scenario is the 10th pick for Dinwiddie/ Claxton/ 19/55th picks.
Riller should still be available at 19, Otherwise, Just go with Desmond Bane! Nik Claxton is the ultimate upside 4/5 backup big man with elite athleticism and nearly identical measurables to that of Giannis! :o
And at 55, You take one of Azubuike/ Richards/ Wiley for backup center. Or you could go with a bigger version of Carter in Tyshon Alexander.
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Post#27 » by alamin330 » Tue Oct 6, 2020 3:41 pm

Let me clarify: lamelo and cole Anthony to me are better prospects if available at 10. If the suns trade down to mid or late 1st and get a good return then maybe Riller. I do think he has offense. But that’s not the issue.
The issue is his defense, his passing and the fact that we don’t know how he competes against equal or better competition. Actually we do know how because when he plays teams like Oklahoma state he doesn’t have great games. Winners and great players play great no matter the competition.
He’s doing all his scoring against low level college talent. He works hard to get his shot off against inferior players. To be fair his 3pt range looks to be unlimited and his shot from deep 3 looks effortless. However, vs nba level talent will he be able to do the same?
Mike James, Austin rivers, jimmer those guys were good offensive players in college it doesn’t mean the same at the next level. He’s no steph, Damian, or harden.

I wouldn’t use the 10th pick for a guy who played suspect D for Charleston. If he was a good defender he would defend. Lol.
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Re: PHoenix Suns 2020 NBA DRAFT BIG BOARD 

Post#28 » by alamin330 » Tue Oct 6, 2020 4:23 pm

Honestly I would try to trade out of this draft ASAP rocky.
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Re: PHoenix Suns 2020 NBA DRAFT BIG BOARD 

Post#29 » by Wilber85 » Tue Oct 6, 2020 6:55 pm

I trade out of draft as well!
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Post#30 » by bwgood77 » Tue Oct 6, 2020 9:31 pm

Was Curry a great defender at Davidson?
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Post#31 » by Kerrsed » Tue Oct 6, 2020 10:41 pm

They make it a pain to compare NCAA players despite the site doing it great with NBA players. But i was able to grab Rillers stats (Both Basic and Advanced) and put them up against both Lillards and Rivers.

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To me, Riller compares way more favorably to Lillard than he does to Rivers. His PER 40 numbers are damn near identical to Lillard (Except Lillard hit 4% better from 3). Advanced Stats also are very similar to Lillard and both put together makes the Austin Rivers comparison very very questionable. Like not even close.
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Post#32 » by Kerrsed » Tue Oct 6, 2020 10:44 pm

bwgood77 wrote:Was Curry a great defender at Davidson?


He was decent. He averaged around 2 and a half steals a game and had a 3.6 Defensive Win Shares. He was quick and able to stay with his man.
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Post#33 » by bwgood77 » Tue Oct 6, 2020 11:32 pm

Kerrsed wrote:
bwgood77 wrote:Was Curry a great defender at Davidson?


He was decent. He averaged around 2 and a half steals a game and had a 3.6 Defensive Win Shares. He was quick and able to stay with his man.


He was good with steals, but that was his biggest question mark scouting wise for the NBA..defensively, and whether he had the speed, size and athleticism to stick with NBA point guards. He became decent due to his crazy work ethic and working with trainers...but of course teams were not drafting him for his defense. Riller is more of a 6th man type and not a guy you're really drafting for defense either.

Scouting report from DX:

Defensively, Curry puts a solid effort in, but is extremely limited by his poor physical tools on this end of the floor. He lacks great height, length or strength, and possesses below average lateral quickness, making him a potential defensive liability when being matched up with some of the more explosive guards the NBA is known for. He is a fairly tough kid, willing to stick his nose in and take a charge, and also seems to have a terrific knack for getting in the passing lanes (ranking amongst the top ball-thieves in the NCAA in steals), being extremely intelligent about following the scouting report. His lack of strength makes him susceptible to being posted up, though, and also makes it difficult for him to fight through screens. Although offensively it appears that he can play both guard spots, on the defensive end he would likely struggle badly guarding NBA shooting guards. - Source: http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Stephen-Curry-1170/ ©DraftExpress
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Re: PHoenix Suns 2020 NBA DRAFT BIG BOARD 

Post#34 » by Ghost of Kleine » Wed Oct 7, 2020 1:56 am

alamin330 wrote:Let me clarify: lamelo and cole Anthony to me are better prospects if available at 10. If the suns trade down to mid or late 1st and get a good return then maybe Riller. I do think he has offense. But that’s not the issue.
The issue is his defense, his passing and the fact that we don’t know how he competes against equal or better competition. Actually we do know how because when he plays teams like Oklahoma state he doesn’t have great games. Winners and great players play great no matter the competition.
He’s doing all his scoring against low level college talent. He works hard to get his shot off against inferior players. To be fair his 3pt range looks to be unlimited and his shot from deep 3 looks effortless. However, vs nba level talent will he be able to do the same?
Mike James, Austin rivers, jimmer those guys were good offensive players in college it doesn’t mean the same at the next level. He’s no steph, Damian, or harden.

I wouldn’t use the 10th pick for a guy who played suspect D for Charleston. If he was a good defender he would defend. Lol.


Definitely fair points man. But again my argument was in that he was pretty much the only real premiere offensive talent they had on that roster. I'd have a hard time believing any high level prospect would do well being double and triple teamed constantly. Trying to carry the offensive load single handedly for your team will of course wear anyone down. And when you're exhausted, Of course you'll be gassed on defensive rotayions as a result may be a bit slow.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/bustingbrackets.com/2019/07/22/charleston-basketball-grant-riller-set-become-national-star-2019-20/amp/
Last season was overall successful for Charleston Basketball. The program won 24 total games and went 12-6 in the Colonial Athletic Association. They had several big wins in the non-conference, including those against VCU, Memphis and Rhode Island. It was done primarily on the backs of Jarrell Brantley and Grant Riller, the team’s lone double-digit scorers.

But with Brantley graduating and getting selected in the 2019 NBA Draft, Riller becomes the last man standing. He’s been a starter for the Cougars the past three seasons, part of a lethal trio of scorers along with both Brantley and Joe Chealey, who averaged 18 ppg as a senior for the 2017-18 season.

Riller was a factor with the program literally from day one, scoring 21 points in his college debut in a win over The Citadel. He dropped 30 as a freshman in a road victory over Drexel later on in the season. The 6’3 guard upped his average to 18.6 ppg as a sophomore to lead the team on an impressive 55% shooting from the field and 39% from three-point range.

But with Chealey gone, Riller had to transition to becoming an all-around playmaker, distributing the ball to others while still scoring at a high level. He did just that this past season, leading Charleston Basketball with 21.9 ppg and 4.1 apg on 54% shooting. He and Brantley formed a great 1-2 punch to keep the Cougars among the best in the CAA.

Riller has been around teammates just as great as him in the past but not he stands alone. And with the extra spotlight comes expectations and national recognition. Independent college basketball analyst and founder of the website “CBB Central Kevin Sweeney recently compiled a ranking of the top mid-major point guards in the country for next season. Riller was ranked No. 1 overall, ahead of outstanding players such as Jordan Ford of Saint Mary’s and Jalen Pickett of Siena.

Riller has shown that he can not only score but dish it out as well, at an incredibly efficient rate.

- So the overall point here is in that Grant had 2 of the 3 primary scorers for the team leave. Now he's the team's only real offensive weapon. So as I stated previously, Offensive load can wear down anyone when you don't have a decent supporting cast. Again, As evidenced by the same situation affecting Cole Anthony as well.

Actually we do know how because when he plays teams like Oklahoma state he doesn’t have great games

https://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/boxscore?gameId=401169612
- IF you look at the box score for the team, As well as the team Percentages, I think you'll find that pretty much the whole team with maybe the exception of Brantley struggled mightily from the perimeter. And to be fair, Everyone can have an off night shooting. It's not like it's unheard of after all. Also, why not mention games like:

https://cofcsports.com/sports/mens-basketball/stats/2019-20/providence/boxscore/9537
- Providence wherein he had something like 29 points/5 rebounds.
https://cofcsports.com/sports/mens-basketball/stats/2019-20/marshall/boxscore/9534
- Marshall, Wherein he had 22 points/ 3 rebounds.
https://cofcsports.com/sports/mens-basketball/stats/2019-20/coker/boxscore/9539
- Coker, Wherein he had 23 points/ 10 rebounds.
https://cofcsports.com/sports/mens-basketball/stats/2019-20/vcu/boxscore/9541
VCU, Wherein he had 26 points / 5 rebounds.
https://cofcsports.com/sports/mens-basketball/stats/2019-20/towson/boxscore/9638
- Towson, Wherein he had 20 points/ 11 rebounds.
https://cofcsports.com/sports/mens-basketball/stats/2019-20/northeastern/boxscore/9642
- NorthEastern, Wherein he had 20 points/ 10 rebounds.
https://cofcsports.com/sports/mens-basketball/stats/2019-20/hofstra/boxscore/9643
- Hofstra, Wherein he had 17 points/ 10 rebounds.
https://cofcsports.com/sports/mens-basketball/stats/2019-20/james-madison/boxscore/9645
- James Madison, Wherein he had 36 points/ 7 rebounds.
OR THIS.............
On December 14, 2019, Riller became the third Cougar in program history to reach the 2,000 career point mark, scoring 21 in a road loss to Richmond. On January 16, 2020, he recorded the first-ever triple-double by a College of Charleston player, with 20 points, 10 rebounds and 10 assists in a loss to Northeastern.
The point is that Riller has had far more really good games than bad games. And that anyone can have an off night. And it doesn't help the situation, Whenst your teammates are also struggling to make shots. Allowing opposing defenses to key in on Riller exclusively.

Winners and great players play great no matter the competition.


- That's not always true, Even at the professional level! If that were actually so, Then what happened to Giannis/ Kwahi/ and even Siakim in their playoff series. The cold hard truth is that even great players can have off games. And fatigue also plays a big part in a players production and efficiency, If this weren't so, concepts such as load management would exist or be necessary. Also, even in college what was the excuse for players like Ja Morant, Whose very obviously elite, But struggled in the tournament against Florida, And got knocked out. Or what about Duke with Zion/ Cam Reddish/ and RJ Barrett that were supposed to win the championship that year But got eliminated. Again, even very good players have off nights!


He’s doing all his scoring against low level college talent. He works hard to get his shot off against inferior players.


- Actually he's doing it regularly against double and triple teams. But you're right that he does work hard always.
https://www.postandcourier.com/sports/caa-basketball-teams-figure-it-out-stop-charlestons-grant-riller-beat-the-cougars/article_da59213e-42cf-11ea-b133-afa9f4564dd7.html
Grant Riller has seen just about every defense imaginable in his 122 games at the College of Charleston.

They’ve all been designed for one purpose – to stop, or at least slow down, him.

Over the last four seasons, the Orlando, Fla., native has seen his share of double and triple teams and sliced through them with ease. He’s gone up against box-in-one and triangle-in-two defenses, with opposing teams guarding him man-to-man while using a zone defense against his teammates.

The Seahawks used a combination of zone defenses, then altered that by going to a box-in-one and a triangle-in-two on Riller. Every time the 6-3 senior touched the ball, he had two Seahawks defenders in his face.
A week earlier, William & Mary used a similar scheme to slow down Riller,
We wanted to crowd him, not give him space to get going downhill,” said William & Mary coach Dane Fischer. “He’s good enough where he can go get 20 points just making the plays he makes. We wanted to guard him with five guys and pack the paint. We wanted him to make him work.”

- Again, I think it'd be really difficult and ultimately exhausting to have to always face double and triple teams, And still be expected to carry your team's offense.

The issue is his defense, his passing and the fact that we don’t know how he competes against equal or better competition.


https://hashtagbasketball.com/nba-draft/content/everything-you-need-to-know-grant-riller
Defensively, Riller leaves a lot to be desired. His effort is minimal, he ball watches, and he has sloppy mechanics. Many of his inefficiencies can likely be linked to the massive offensive load he had to carry. Still, he will be continuously targeted on defense if he continues to bring the same level of effort. It is purely a lack of effort which can’t be coached.


- Again, I do believe that once he doesn't have to solely carry the majority of the offensive load, And thusly won't be as worn out/ fatigued, his defensive effort will improve a lot.

In a vaccum, Riller has the tools with his solid lateral quickness and strong frame to be an effective defender in the league.

https://uproxx.com/dimemag/grant-riller-2020-nba-draft-scouting-report/
Believing Riller can materialize as a neutral or slight positive defensively means investing in his flashes. [b][u]His lateral movement and strength empower him to stymie attacks. He beats assignments to spots and close driving lanes, drawing charges on a semi-regular basis. Off the ball, his speed and instincts are prevalent when he’s engaged, contributing to his career 2.3 percent steal rate. Riller’s quick and strong hands shine through on stunts, and he shrinks passing lanes with his awareness.



The talent, though, is there for Riller to emerge as a stout on-ball guard defender with the instincts to turn teams over off the ball — nothing phenomenal, just enough to not undermine his offensive allure.

- So as it's been stated many times, And by many people, Riller DOES ABSOLUTELY HAVE the athleticism and lateral speed to be a decent defender in the NBA. It's all about his commitment to it. And if D Book can improve, As well as Ayton, and various others too. I see no reason why Riller can't also.

I think Riller will at least be passable defensively in the NBA. Ja Morant at Murray State was another example of a player who had the physical tools to be good defensively but was also lackluster on that end because of the burden he had to carry in his offensive role. I doubt that Riller will be as effective as Morant was this year as a rookie, but his effort level will probably improve once he joins the professional ranks.

- And with respect to your concerns over his passing development.

https://uproxx.com/dimemag/grant-riller-2020-nba-draft-scouting-report/
In the second half of his career, Riller showed tangible strides as a playmaker, amassing 256 assists and 176 turnovers compared to 110 assists and 111 turnovers over the inaugural two seasons.

His maturation as a distributor lends credence to the belief he can continue it in the NBA and further his overall offensive game.

Riller’s burst and handle are going to enact advantages. The swing factor is how regularly he ensures the offense benefits from his compromising of defenses.


https://www.google.com/amp/s/thepaintedlines.com/grant-riller-not-your-typical-small-school-prospect/%3famp
Riller is a strong athlete and his combination of size, speed and length can play extremely well defensively. When engaged, he leverages his strength to dislodge ball handlers and generate steal opportunities (as seen here)

Those type of plays have earned Riller 165 career steals at Charleston. But much like his play off the ball, his level of engagement defensively can fluctuate significantly.

Riller features plus strength and athleticism to become a multi-positional defender at the next level. But it will take a new sense of commitment to establish his name on the defensive end. 

- So obviously the potential is there! He just needs to buy in. And I believe that he will as stated.



https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.grizzlybearblues.com/platform/amp/2020/5/29/21273406/2020-nba-draft-profiles-grant-riller-memphis-grizzlies-college-charleston


As for those players above: Mike James/ Austin Rivers/ Jimmer Fredette,
1- Mike James.
https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/mike-james-2.html
Averaged 15 points/ 2.8 rebounds/ 1.9 assists on 44% FG/ 33% 3PT/ 80% FT/ 53% TS/ 49% EFG/ 3.4 BPM.
Compared to Riller:
https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/grant-riller-1.html
18 points/ 3.3 rebounds/ 2.8 assists. On 51% FG/ 35% 3PT/ 79% FT/ 61% TS/ 57% EFG/ 5.3 BPM.
James had a slightly better Free throw percentage, But Riller bested him in the majority of other categories still. Also James wasn't nearly as efficient as Riller was. Although I will concede that they're both pretty athletic with slick ballhandling abilities.
2- Austin Rivers:
http://www.tankathon.com/players/compare?players=grant-riller--austin-rivers
Again, Riller beat Rivers pretty handily in all but 3 categories- Slightly less turnovers, A slightly better 3 point percentage, And a slightly better 3 pt rate. But as far as TS% and EFG% It wasn't close. The same with the advanced stats and BPM.
Jimmer Fredette.
http://www.tankathon.com/players/compare?players=grant-riller--jimmer-fredette
Of course Jimmer does beat him in the majority of advanced stats, as well as scoring average, assists ( slightly)! 3 point %, 3 point rate, and Free throw %. However, Riller does beat him in rebounds, blocks, steals, less Turnovers, FT rate, FG% , TS%, EFG%, DPBM. So what this tells me, Is that Jimmer was obviously a very dynamic shooter, scorer. And Riller was more of a floor general that focused on varying aspects of the game aside from just scoring alone. And you're very right man! All were pretty good players in their own right in college. But none of the three mentioned were honestly as efficient at offense as Riller. Also, it could be argued that each players individual success or failure rather to remain in the league could be highly attributed to their individual flaws in there games. For instance:
Mike James was a very solid and crafty scorer, But he was weak overall in most other areas of his game. Especially playmaking, decision making. Rivers was a streaky shot chucker who didn't make solid decisions very often, and had/ still has a bad case of tunnel vision. And Jimmer, Although a very dynamic and streaky shooter, simply doesn't have the athletic profile or talent to hang consistently in the NBA. He's not fast, doesn't have a good vertical burst, he's not overtly strong. Really he's only elite at shooting, When he's on fire mostly.

As for LaMelo Ball and Cole Anthony,
I agree on LaMelo. He should be higher of course. But let's be honest man, I have a much better chance of being drafted by the suns than Ball does of reaching it to 10. And I actually do like Anthony, But for whatever reason, His percentages were pretty lousy at North Carolina. And when you compare Anthony to Riller:
http://www.tankathon.com/players/compare?players=cole-anthony--grant-riller
Riller once again beats Anthony pretty handily in the majority of categories. And IF your argument for that is his supporting cast, How does the same not apply situationally to Grant Riller, As Anthony's struggles overall can and have obviously been widely attributed to also having to carry the majority of the scoring load for his team with a fairly poor supporting cast. Both were also double and triple teamed at times with the opposing teams focus on shutting down Riller and/or Anthony under the very same premise. I do also agree with you on the premise of preferring to get him in a trade back scenario rather than utilizing the 10 for him, As I do expect him to be available anywhere in the 14- 24 range.

Lastly, I really do understand that you have legitimate concerns over his defensive viability. However, the multiple scouting Analysis, articles, and even video and Twitter clip references should be reasonably enough to alay your fears. He's got the athletic ability to at the very least become a passable to decent defender. The scouting reports have emphasized this already multiple times, As have the video clips. And his passing is also reported to be underrated. And even though the hope would be for it to greatly improve, Let's be honest, Who better to help him than Rubio himself anyways?
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DirtyDez
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Re: PHoenix Suns 2020 NBA DRAFT BIG BOARD 

Post#35 » by DirtyDez » Wed Oct 7, 2020 7:45 pm

Riller’s highlights remind me of Deron Williams before he flamed out. He’s very aggressive but definitely looks to score first. Obviously he won’t be of prime D-Will’s caliber but I can see him being like Jameer Nelson the Orlando version.

1. Toppin
2. Riller
fromthetop321 wrote:I got Lebron number 1, he is also leading defensive player of the year. Curry's game still reminds me of Jeremy Lin to much.
alamin330
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Re: PHoenix Suns 2020 NBA DRAFT BIG BOARD 

Post#36 » by alamin330 » Fri Oct 9, 2020 7:49 pm

Ghost of Kleine wrote:
alamin330 wrote:Let me clarify: lamelo and cole Anthony to me are better prospects if available at 10. If the suns trade down to mid or late 1st and get a good return then maybe Riller. I do think he has offense. But that’s not the issue.
The issue is his defense, his passing and the fact that we don’t know how he competes against equal or better competition. Actually we do know how because when he plays teams like Oklahoma state he doesn’t have great games. Winners and great players play great no matter the competition.
He’s doing all his scoring against low level college talent. He works hard to get his shot off against inferior players. To be fair his 3pt range looks to be unlimited and his shot from deep 3 looks effortless. However, vs nba level talent will he be able to do the same?
Mike James, Austin rivers, jimmer those guys were good offensive players in college it doesn’t mean the same at the next level. He’s no steph, Damian, or harden.

I wouldn’t use the 10th pick for a guy who played suspect D for Charleston. If he was a good defender he would defend. Lol.


Definitely fair points man. But again my argument was in that he was pretty much the only real premiere offensive talent they had on that roster. I'd have a hard time believing any high level prospect would do well being double and triple teamed constantly. Trying to carry the offensive load single handedly for your team will of course wear anyone down. And when you're exhausted, Of course you'll be gassed on defensive rotayions as a result may be a bit slow.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/bustingbrackets.com/2019/07/22/charleston-basketball-grant-riller-set-become-national-star-2019-20/amp/
Last season was overall successful for Charleston Basketball. The program won 24 total games and went 12-6 in the Colonial Athletic Association. They had several big wins in the non-conference, including those against VCU, Memphis and Rhode Island. It was done primarily on the backs of Jarrell Brantley and Grant Riller, the team’s lone double-digit scorers.

But with Brantley graduating and getting selected in the 2019 NBA Draft, Riller becomes the last man standing. He’s been a starter for the Cougars the past three seasons, part of a lethal trio of scorers along with both Brantley and Joe Chealey, who averaged 18 ppg as a senior for the 2017-18 season.

Riller was a factor with the program literally from day one, scoring 21 points in his college debut in a win over The Citadel. He dropped 30 as a freshman in a road victory over Drexel later on in the season. The 6’3 guard upped his average to 18.6 ppg as a sophomore to lead the team on an impressive 55% shooting from the field and 39% from three-point range.

But with Chealey gone, Riller had to transition to becoming an all-around playmaker, distributing the ball to others while still scoring at a high level. He did just that this past season, leading Charleston Basketball with 21.9 ppg and 4.1 apg on 54% shooting. He and Brantley formed a great 1-2 punch to keep the Cougars among the best in the CAA.

Riller has been around teammates just as great as him in the past but not he stands alone. And with the extra spotlight comes expectations and national recognition. Independent college basketball analyst and founder of the website “CBB Central Kevin Sweeney recently compiled a ranking of the top mid-major point guards in the country for next season. Riller was ranked No. 1 overall, ahead of outstanding players such as Jordan Ford of Saint Mary’s and Jalen Pickett of Siena.

Riller has shown that he can not only score but dish it out as well, at an incredibly efficient rate.

- So the overall point here is in that Grant had 2 of the 3 primary scorers for the team leave. Now he's the team's only real offensive weapon. So as I stated previously, Offensive load can wear down anyone when you don't have a decent supporting cast. Again, As evidenced by the same situation affecting Cole Anthony as well.

Actually we do know how because when he plays teams like Oklahoma state he doesn’t have great games

https://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/boxscore?gameId=401169612
- IF you look at the box score for the team, As well as the team Percentages, I think you'll find that pretty much the whole team with maybe the exception of Brantley struggled mightily from the perimeter. And to be fair, Everyone can have an off night shooting. It's not like it's unheard of after all. Also, why not mention games like:

https://cofcsports.com/sports/mens-basketball/stats/2019-20/providence/boxscore/9537
- Providence wherein he had something like 29 points/5 rebounds.
https://cofcsports.com/sports/mens-basketball/stats/2019-20/marshall/boxscore/9534
- Marshall, Wherein he had 22 points/ 3 rebounds.
https://cofcsports.com/sports/mens-basketball/stats/2019-20/coker/boxscore/9539
- Coker, Wherein he had 23 points/ 10 rebounds.
https://cofcsports.com/sports/mens-basketball/stats/2019-20/vcu/boxscore/9541
VCU, Wherein he had 26 points / 5 rebounds.
https://cofcsports.com/sports/mens-basketball/stats/2019-20/towson/boxscore/9638
- Towson, Wherein he had 20 points/ 11 rebounds.
https://cofcsports.com/sports/mens-basketball/stats/2019-20/northeastern/boxscore/9642
- NorthEastern, Wherein he had 20 points/ 10 rebounds.
https://cofcsports.com/sports/mens-basketball/stats/2019-20/hofstra/boxscore/9643
- Hofstra, Wherein he had 17 points/ 10 rebounds.
https://cofcsports.com/sports/mens-basketball/stats/2019-20/james-madison/boxscore/9645
- James Madison, Wherein he had 36 points/ 7 rebounds.
OR THIS.............
On December 14, 2019, Riller became the third Cougar in program history to reach the 2,000 career point mark, scoring 21 in a road loss to Richmond. On January 16, 2020, he recorded the first-ever triple-double by a College of Charleston player, with 20 points, 10 rebounds and 10 assists in a loss to Northeastern.
The point is that Riller has had far more really good games than bad games. And that anyone can have an off night. And it doesn't help the situation, Whenst your teammates are also struggling to make shots. Allowing opposing defenses to key in on Riller exclusively.

Winners and great players play great no matter the competition.


- That's not always true, Even at the professional level! If that were actually so, Then what happened to Giannis/ Kwahi/ and even Siakim in their playoff series. The cold hard truth is that even great players can have off games. And fatigue also plays a big part in a players production and efficiency, If this weren't so, concepts such as load management would exist or be necessary. Also, even in college what was the excuse for players like Ja Morant, Whose very obviously elite, But struggled in the tournament against Florida, And got knocked out. Or what about Duke with Zion/ Cam Reddish/ and RJ Barrett that were supposed to win the championship that year But got eliminated. Again, even very good players have off nights!


He’s doing all his scoring against low level college talent. He works hard to get his shot off against inferior players.


- Actually he's doing it regularly against double and triple teams. But you're right that he does work hard always.
https://www.postandcourier.com/sports/caa-basketball-teams-figure-it-out-stop-charlestons-grant-riller-beat-the-cougars/article_da59213e-42cf-11ea-b133-afa9f4564dd7.html
Grant Riller has seen just about every defense imaginable in his 122 games at the College of Charleston.

They’ve all been designed for one purpose – to stop, or at least slow down, him.

Over the last four seasons, the Orlando, Fla., native has seen his share of double and triple teams and sliced through them with ease. He’s gone up against box-in-one and triangle-in-two defenses, with opposing teams guarding him man-to-man while using a zone defense against his teammates.

The Seahawks used a combination of zone defenses, then altered that by going to a box-in-one and a triangle-in-two on Riller. Every time the 6-3 senior touched the ball, he had two Seahawks defenders in his face.
A week earlier, William & Mary used a similar scheme to slow down Riller,
We wanted to crowd him, not give him space to get going downhill,” said William & Mary coach Dane Fischer. “He’s good enough where he can go get 20 points just making the plays he makes. We wanted to guard him with five guys and pack the paint. We wanted him to make him work.”

- Again, I think it'd be really difficult and ultimately exhausting to have to always face double and triple teams, And still be expected to carry your team's offense.

The issue is his defense, his passing and the fact that we don’t know how he competes against equal or better competition.


https://hashtagbasketball.com/nba-draft/content/everything-you-need-to-know-grant-riller
Defensively, Riller leaves a lot to be desired. His effort is minimal, he ball watches, and he has sloppy mechanics. Many of his inefficiencies can likely be linked to the massive offensive load he had to carry. Still, he will be continuously targeted on defense if he continues to bring the same level of effort. It is purely a lack of effort which can’t be coached.


- Again, I do believe that once he doesn't have to solely carry the majority of the offensive load, And thusly won't be as worn out/ fatigued, his defensive effort will improve a lot.

In a vaccum, Riller has the tools with his solid lateral quickness and strong frame to be an effective defender in the league.

https://uproxx.com/dimemag/grant-riller-2020-nba-draft-scouting-report/
Believing Riller can materialize as a neutral or slight positive defensively means investing in his flashes. [b][u]His lateral movement and strength empower him to stymie attacks. He beats assignments to spots and close driving lanes, drawing charges on a semi-regular basis. Off the ball, his speed and instincts are prevalent when he’s engaged, contributing to his career 2.3 percent steal rate. Riller’s quick and strong hands shine through on stunts, and he shrinks passing lanes with his awareness.



The talent, though, is there for Riller to emerge as a stout on-ball guard defender with the instincts to turn teams over off the ball — nothing phenomenal, just enough to not undermine his offensive allure.

- So as it's been stated many times, And by many people, Riller DOES ABSOLUTELY HAVE the athleticism and lateral speed to be a decent defender in the NBA. It's all about his commitment to it. And if D Book can improve, As well as Ayton, and various others too. I see no reason why Riller can't also.

I think Riller will at least be passable defensively in the NBA. Ja Morant at Murray State was another example of a player who had the physical tools to be good defensively but was also lackluster on that end because of the burden he had to carry in his offensive role. I doubt that Riller will be as effective as Morant was this year as a rookie, but his effort level will probably improve once he joins the professional ranks.

- And with respect to your concerns over his passing development.

https://uproxx.com/dimemag/grant-riller-2020-nba-draft-scouting-report/
In the second half of his career, Riller showed tangible strides as a playmaker, amassing 256 assists and 176 turnovers compared to 110 assists and 111 turnovers over the inaugural two seasons.

His maturation as a distributor lends credence to the belief he can continue it in the NBA and further his overall offensive game.

Riller’s burst and handle are going to enact advantages. The swing factor is how regularly he ensures the offense benefits from his compromising of defenses.


https://www.google.com/amp/s/thepaintedlines.com/grant-riller-not-your-typical-small-school-prospect/%3famp
Riller is a strong athlete and his combination of size, speed and length can play extremely well defensively. When engaged, he leverages his strength to dislodge ball handlers and generate steal opportunities (as seen here)

Those type of plays have earned Riller 165 career steals at Charleston. But much like his play off the ball, his level of engagement defensively can fluctuate significantly.

Riller features plus strength and athleticism to become a multi-positional defender at the next level. But it will take a new sense of commitment to establish his name on the defensive end. 

- So obviously the potential is there! He just needs to buy in. And I believe that he will as stated.



https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.grizzlybearblues.com/platform/amp/2020/5/29/21273406/2020-nba-draft-profiles-grant-riller-memphis-grizzlies-college-charleston


As for those players above: Mike James/ Austin Rivers/ Jimmer Fredette,
1- Mike James.
https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/mike-james-2.html
Averaged 15 points/ 2.8 rebounds/ 1.9 assists on 44% FG/ 33% 3PT/ 80% FT/ 53% TS/ 49% EFG/ 3.4 BPM.
Compared to Riller:
https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/grant-riller-1.html
18 points/ 3.3 rebounds/ 2.8 assists. On 51% FG/ 35% 3PT/ 79% FT/ 61% TS/ 57% EFG/ 5.3 BPM.
James had a slightly better Free throw percentage, But Riller bested him in the majority of other categories still. Also James wasn't nearly as efficient as Riller was. Although I will concede that they're both pretty athletic with slick ballhandling abilities.
2- Austin Rivers:
http://www.tankathon.com/players/compare?players=grant-riller--austin-rivers
Again, Riller beat Rivers pretty handily in all but 3 categories- Slightly less turnovers, A slightly better 3 point percentage, And a slightly better 3 pt rate. But as far as TS% and EFG% It wasn't close. The same with the advanced stats and BPM.
Jimmer Fredette.
http://www.tankathon.com/players/compare?players=grant-riller--jimmer-fredette
Of course Jimmer does beat him in the majority of advanced stats, as well as scoring average, assists ( slightly)! 3 point %, 3 point rate, and Free throw %. However, Riller does beat him in rebounds, blocks, steals, less Turnovers, FT rate, FG% , TS%, EFG%, DPBM. So what this tells me, Is that Jimmer was obviously a very dynamic shooter, scorer. And Riller was more of a floor general that focused on varying aspects of the game aside from just scoring alone. And you're very right man! All were pretty good players in their own right in college. But none of the three mentioned were honestly as efficient at offense as Riller. Also, it could be argued that each players individual success or failure rather to remain in the league could be highly attributed to their individual flaws in there games. For instance:
Mike James was a very solid and crafty scorer, But he was weak overall in most other areas of his game. Especially playmaking, decision making. Rivers was a streaky shot chucker who didn't make solid decisions very often, and had/ still has a bad case of tunnel vision. And Jimmer, Although a very dynamic and streaky shooter, simply doesn't have the athletic profile or talent to hang consistently in the NBA. He's not fast, doesn't have a good vertical burst, he's not overtly strong. Really he's only elite at shooting, When he's on fire mostly.

As for LaMelo Ball and Cole Anthony,
I agree on LaMelo. He should be higher of course. But let's be honest man, I have a much better chance of being drafted by the suns than Ball does of reaching it to 10. And I actually do like Anthony, But for whatever reason, His percentages were pretty lousy at North Carolina. And when you compare Anthony to Riller:
http://www.tankathon.com/players/compare?players=cole-anthony--grant-riller
Riller once again beats Anthony pretty handily in the majority of categories. And IF your argument for that is his supporting cast, How does the same not apply situationally to Grant Riller, As Anthony's struggles overall can and have obviously been widely attributed to also having to carry the majority of the scoring load for his team with a fairly poor supporting cast. Both were also double and triple teamed at times with the opposing teams focus on shutting down Riller and/or Anthony under the very same premise. I do also agree with you on the premise of preferring to get him in a trade back scenario rather than utilizing the 10 for him, As I do expect him to be available anywhere in the 14- 24 range.

Lastly, I really do understand that you have legitimate concerns over his defensive viability. However, the multiple scouting Analysis, articles, and even video and Twitter clip references should be reasonably enough to alay your fears. He's got the athletic ability to at the very least become a passable to decent defender. The scouting reports have emphasized this already multiple times, As have the video clips. And his passing is also reported to be underrated. And even though the hope would be for it to greatly improve, Let's be honest, Who better to help him than Rubio himself anyways?


This was an amazing response. I appreciate the effort. Riller is cool with me. You have me great reason to think so plus I do think he has potential just as high as Anthony however I think he has less time to reach it due to his age. However I do think he has higher IQ than Anthony and Lamelo which if they all end up being equally good I’d prefer the guy with higher iq obviously. So I’m good with Riller. Just not at #10 and that’s what I was mostly responding to.

I don’t typically do advanced stats I just watch a lot of video and first person who came to mind when watching him was Austin rivers. Of course Austin, cole both played at bigger schools which meant the competition they faced nightly was tougher than what Riller faced. So it’s going to be fun to watch their progression over their careers.
Once I found out Greg Anthony was coles dad it kinda turned me off from him anyway. Lol. I don’t like Greg anthony since he played for the Knicks. Lol.

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