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The 2020 NBA Draft

Moderators: bwgood77, Qwigglez, lilfishi22, Kerrsed

Are you happy with the Jalen Smith pick?

Yes, without a doubt
20
30%
Yes, but I would have preferred Haliburton or Vassell or maybe Bey or Lewis
29
43%
No, I would have preferred one of the above guys
12
18%
No, there were at least 10 guys I would have taken over him.
6
9%
 
Total votes: 67

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Re: The 2020 NBA Draft - New Poll 

Post#881 » by AtheJ415 » Thu Nov 19, 2020 8:47 pm

Kerrsed wrote:I see a lot of people saying Smith cant play PF and questioning his fit next to Ayton. You guys do realize that he played PF all last season next to a C (Bruno Fernando) who now plays for the Atlanta Hawks right?

Throughout his HS career he also was a PF.

Maryland big man Jalen Smith had a very strong final season for the Terps, averaging 15.5 points, 10.5 rebounds and 2.4 blocks while leading UMD to a Big Ten title. He says he did all of that while playing out of position.

That could be a reference to big men Makhi and Makhel Mitchell transferring out midseason. Smith had to play center when he, and apparently the coaching staff, felt he was a natural power forward.

"I was pretty much playing out of position most of the year because [coach Mark] Turgeon wanted me to play the four, but most of the year I played at the five due to issues we had behind the scenes with the team," Smith said.

https://www.nbcsports.com/washington/wizards/jalen-smith-says-he-played-out-position-terps

Now dont get me wrong, he played great at C when asked to, that speaks of his versatility. He is a stretch 4 that can also be a stretch 5. I dont care what the Talking Heads say about its easy to grab a guy already in the league that can do what he does at C, but thats BS. 3 Point shooting C's that are also strong defenders are a bit of a rarity. Jokic is one, Vučević, Ibaka, Turner to some point, JJJ. Point being most of the C's that are 3 point shooters arnt really known for their defense, they are more the "Soft" guys, and most of the top defensive type C's are the guys that have their asses planted in the paint.

Now the reason why im bringing up 3 point shooting defensive C's when i just went on a tangent about Smith being a PF and playing next to Ayton is this: David Kevin (@theIVpointplay) brought up something that a lot of you are going to hate, the idea that we very well may look at running Ayton out at PF since his footwork is a bit better. In reality it would be kinda like the position-less SG/SF/PF that you see in the NBA, guys that can play more than one position and not directly defining what they are playing because they have the same skillset as other players. They just play. But instead of SF/PF or SG/SF, we would be doing it at PF/C. Fact is we now have two large (6'11) and long guys that are excellent defenders, excellent rebounders, and can hit the 3 ball. Ayton is the quicker of the two and has better dribbling and footwork. I have also seen more mid-range from Ayton, but im not saying Smith doesnt have that aspect to his game, i just havent watched enough actual games to see it happen.

I could totally see the two playing next to each other, and possibly Ayton playing the position he says he really is (PF) or just outright going position-less like i said. Imagine the defensive possibilities of a Bridges/Ayton/Smith line. Thats not even factoring in CP3's defense.

Once again, dont let the talking heads and media hot takes lead you astray. Listen to the 2 guys who know these prospects the best, Givony and Schmitz.

“Has good size for an NBA power forward, at 6-foot-10, 225 pounds with a 7-foot-2 wingspan. Saw most of his minutes at center this season and should be able to play both big man spots in the NBA,” wrote Jonathan Givony. “ Versatile offensive player. Made 37% of his 3-pointers and 75% of his free throws on a fairly large sample. Capable of attacking slower defenders from the perimeter or scoring in the post with either hand. Made more than 60% of his 2-point attempts. Competitive on both ends. Length and excellent timing made him an effective shot-blocker. Uses both hands to protect the rim. Also a productive rebounder.”


Schmitz had The Pelicans @ #13 as the perfect spot for him, so this write up is about them, but very telling:

If there's one big in this draft who perfectly complements Zion Williamson, it's Smith. He spaces the floor as a deadeye shooter while protecting the rim at a high level, two areas in which Williamson is still improving. Smith would allow Williamson to focus on working defenses as a mismatch driver, giving Zion more space to operate. Smith also has the versatility to fit alongside last year's top-10 pick, Jaxson Hayes.- SCHMITZ


So a big who can play NEXT to a Zion type player, but also can play next to a more traditional C like Hayes. Both experts say he can play both PF/C positions. Im telling you, listen to the guys who are the real experts on these players.


He struggled to stay in front of guys. He defended well around the rim, not on the perimeter. Also, Ayton played the 4 in college next to Ristic, and Ayton would be much less valuable playing the 4 for us than the 5. Would you say Ayton coudl play the 4 for us coming out of college?

For this to be a justifiable pick, Phx needs to be 100% certain he can play the 4, meaning they needed to have run him up against our wings in the workout and had him do a litany of sliding drills. My hope is that happened, but for now it is a big question mark because his main weaknesses in college were playmaking (handling and passing), and defending on the perimeter.
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Re: The 2020 NBA Draft - New Poll 

Post#882 » by AtheJ415 » Thu Nov 19, 2020 8:50 pm

NTB wrote:
DroughtsOverPHX wrote:
Kerrsed wrote:
Actually this draft was considered deep, it just didnt have the first 2 tiers of Generational Talent and Sure Fire Superstar talent. Lots of starters and Longterm Roleplayers/Glue guys.


It didn't feel like it around here. If there were people here touting this as a deep draft, I don't remember.
I'm more surprised that it was an expectation by some that we would have a second round pick through buying it if we had to.

Our buffet currently only has sour grapes and spilled milk.


I am sure 70% of the people who is talking highly about other prospects than Jalen didn't know them 2 weeks ago. Nobody even talked about the draft and players this year as much as previous years. People started to watch some highlights and read some mocks and suddenly the draft is deep and has lots of good players that we passed on.


The people who cover the draft for a living considered it deep. Not referencing this board.
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Re: The 2020 NBA Draft - New Poll 

Post#883 » by suns12345 » Thu Nov 19, 2020 8:52 pm

AtheJ415 wrote:
suns12345 wrote:
AtheJ415 wrote:
Most I've seen here who wanted Bane wanted to trade down to take Bane. It's not really hindsight. It's very obvious that Jones has different opinions of guys than consensus. Given that, he should lean into it and get more from the draft via extra picks or players like he did last year to get Saric. Problem is that's the only time he's done it despite 2 obvious times he could have.



Wanted to trade down to 15, not 30...

its pretty obvious every GM has different views to the consensus based on today.

What are the 2 obvious times he could have got extra picks and players? are you aware of offers he had on the table for past assets?


I'll give you 3: Cam, Smith, Jackson. Hell, probably Jerome.


what trades were on the table for those picks that we should have accepted instead of picking those guys?
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Re: The 2020 NBA Draft - New Poll 

Post#884 » by AtheJ415 » Thu Nov 19, 2020 8:57 pm

Slim Charless wrote:
bigfoot wrote:
AtheJ415 wrote:
His job and critically acclaimed balanced coverage of NBA events for decades makes him an expert. I don't know why you've chosen this bridge to die on, but there isn't a more well respected writer in the country. Like not a 1. Comparing him to Stephen A Smith (who isn't really a writer and is a TV personality), or Tucker Carlson (a TV personality), shows that. Zach Lowe appearing on the Jump on occasion doesn't make him a TV personality shock jock. He's a writer with sources in every FO in the entire league. He covers the entire NBA and is one of the very few writers who even does that.


The bridge I've chosen to die is pointing out your complaints about James Jones assets management are bogus. You decided you don't like the way Jones handled trades and dumping draft picks. You then chose to use

a snippet of Lowe's writing as your justification to support your argument. Lowe is just a more well known and connected Gambo. He writes opinion articles. Sure he's well respected but it doesn't make him right nor does it make him more experienced in evaluating talent than Jones and the other Suns front office guys. He certainly does not have experience being around championship cultures nor can he put three championship rings on his fingers. Guaranteed that Lowe does not have the experience of being around players every waking minute of a season and understanding the type of mentality and dedication it takes to get to the promise land.

To me, Jones understands the behind-the-scenes culture of what it takes to win. If he sacrifices 2nd round picks to build/repair that culture I don't care. If he passes on players mocked higher that he doesn't believe fit the culture I'm okay with that. And being that Lowe got his start as an analytics guy, I'm sure you can find articles about the odds of 2nd round and late 1st round picks ever panning out. For every Dragic type gotten in the second round, there are 95 others who didn't make the cut. Those aren't great odds. That seems to be the bridge your willing to die on when you lament about giving up second-round picks.



This obsession that he has with bringing up Luka is hilarious too. With absolutely no proof he just goes and declares that Jones would take JJJ is funny. This is despite the fact the Jones loves to take kids with multiple years of experience and who are smart. That's EXACTLY what Luka's rep was coming out. Everything Jones has shown us leads to him taking Luka with no hesitation.

He's salty his guy didn't get taken and is spamming the board with complaints. There's a number of mocks that had Smith being taken in 13-16 range. We have no proof that he'd still be there if we traded down to 18 or wherever. Boston and other teams needed a big.

Plus, he played PF in college, the constant comments about how the kid's a C are funny when they're followed immediately by complaints about how weak his base and thin his legs are. He's a 4, besides with Ayton there we hopefully have an anchor for our defense and this kid can do things that he excells at like blindside blocks.


The proof is obvious. James Jones likes to go against the grain and has repeatedly stated the criteria he looks for in a draft pick. He has also followed that same criteria in FA signings. Luka fits only 1 of the 3 criteria, and the 2 he didn't fit were ones he was terrible at. If Jones wanted Luka and Sarver knew he was going to replace McD with him as rumored, then we'd have Luka.

Please provide ANY proof in Jones's history as our GM that in an absolutely loaded draft, he would go for the youngest player at the top with a low defensive ceiling and huge shooting question marks, and who was considered by many / most to be the 1st or 2nd best player in the draft.
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Re: The 2020 NBA Draft - New Poll 

Post#885 » by AtheJ415 » Thu Nov 19, 2020 9:00 pm

suns12345 wrote:
AtheJ415 wrote:
suns12345 wrote:

Wanted to trade down to 15, not 30...

its pretty obvious every GM has different views to the consensus based on today.

What are the 2 obvious times he could have got extra picks and players? are you aware of offers he had on the table for past assets?


I'll give you 3: Cam, Smith, Jackson. Hell, probably Jerome.


what trades were on the table for those picks that we should have accepted instead of picking those guys?


Any. Trades are offered for every pick during a draft. Every one. I don't need a specific example to state with certainty that the option was available. Also, as Lowe has stated, there were teams laughing that they would have given up a pick for Jackson. Hell, I'd include Warren here. We gave up a pick to dump a player. It's been reported Indiana thought we were joking and told us we had to do it now because they didn't want us to talk to another team and get a valid offer for TJ, who right now looks like the 2nd best player Booker has ever played with locked into a cheap contract.

Everyone loves Oubre, who is half the player TJ is.
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Re: The 2020 NBA Draft - New Poll 

Post#886 » by bwgood77 » Thu Nov 19, 2020 9:00 pm

suns12345 wrote:
bwgood77 wrote:
AtheJ415 wrote:
Most I've seen here who wanted Bane wanted to trade down to take Bane. It's not really hindsight. It's very obvious that Jones has different opinions of guys than consensus. Given that, he should lean into it and get more from the draft via extra picks or players like he did last year to get Saric. Problem is that's the only time he's done it despite 2 obvious times he could have.


Cam was the bigger reach though, and it turns out he was a nice pick...and later it was confirmed a couple teams in the teens liked him. You never know if you have the option to move down either.

Jalen Smith, on the major big boards, ranked between 13 and 17, so it wasn't that far off...particularly if you felt you needed depth at the 4/5..positional need wasn't a big deal in this draft given the little difference between about 20 prospects. I would like to know why they didn't take Haliburton though.

I don't care that they didn't trade down at all because I have no idea if that was even an option, but I know taking Haliburton was an option. Or Vassell for that matter.

It will be interesting to see who pans out...and who busts of the top 20-30 players.

Last year only about 2-3 players drafted after Cam were better. Tyler Herro, Brandon Clarke, and possibly PJ Washington, but all those ended up being pretty close looking at the numbers and Cam was stuck behind Oubre, Bridges and Saric for the whole season until the bubble where he thrived. If he starts or gets major minutes, who knows where he ends up.


Looks like Zach Lowe is saying Dallas was trying to move up for Haliburton with 18 and 31.

So I assume we turned that down. 18 was likely too low to get the guy we wanted so I think that is fair enough... and 31 still would have missed on Bane.


Could have gotten two guys I think they visited in Saddiq Bey (who went 19) and Grant Riller. I'm not sure anyone expected Bey to drop that much though.
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Re: The 2020 NBA Draft - New Poll 

Post#887 » by jsierra1985 » Thu Nov 19, 2020 9:02 pm

I am trusting jones

He is building a solid team....

Judge this pick in a year or two...
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Re: The 2020 NBA Draft - New Poll 

Post#888 » by bwgood77 » Thu Nov 19, 2020 9:06 pm

AtheJ415 wrote:
Kerrsed wrote:I see a lot of people saying Smith cant play PF and questioning his fit next to Ayton. You guys do realize that he played PF all last season next to a C (Bruno Fernando) who now plays for the Atlanta Hawks right?

Throughout his HS career he also was a PF.

Maryland big man Jalen Smith had a very strong final season for the Terps, averaging 15.5 points, 10.5 rebounds and 2.4 blocks while leading UMD to a Big Ten title. He says he did all of that while playing out of position.

That could be a reference to big men Makhi and Makhel Mitchell transferring out midseason. Smith had to play center when he, and apparently the coaching staff, felt he was a natural power forward.

"I was pretty much playing out of position most of the year because [coach Mark] Turgeon wanted me to play the four, but most of the year I played at the five due to issues we had behind the scenes with the team," Smith said.

https://www.nbcsports.com/washington/wizards/jalen-smith-says-he-played-out-position-terps

Now dont get me wrong, he played great at C when asked to, that speaks of his versatility. He is a stretch 4 that can also be a stretch 5. I dont care what the Talking Heads say about its easy to grab a guy already in the league that can do what he does at C, but thats BS. 3 Point shooting C's that are also strong defenders are a bit of a rarity. Jokic is one, Vučević, Ibaka, Turner to some point, JJJ. Point being most of the C's that are 3 point shooters arnt really known for their defense, they are more the "Soft" guys, and most of the top defensive type C's are the guys that have their asses planted in the paint.

Now the reason why im bringing up 3 point shooting defensive C's when i just went on a tangent about Smith being a PF and playing next to Ayton is this: David Kevin (@theIVpointplay) brought up something that a lot of you are going to hate, the idea that we very well may look at running Ayton out at PF since his footwork is a bit better. In reality it would be kinda like the position-less SG/SF/PF that you see in the NBA, guys that can play more than one position and not directly defining what they are playing because they have the same skillset as other players. They just play. But instead of SF/PF or SG/SF, we would be doing it at PF/C. Fact is we now have two large (6'11) and long guys that are excellent defenders, excellent rebounders, and can hit the 3 ball. Ayton is the quicker of the two and has better dribbling and footwork. I have also seen more mid-range from Ayton, but im not saying Smith doesnt have that aspect to his game, i just havent watched enough actual games to see it happen.

I could totally see the two playing next to each other, and possibly Ayton playing the position he says he really is (PF) or just outright going position-less like i said. Imagine the defensive possibilities of a Bridges/Ayton/Smith line. Thats not even factoring in CP3's defense.

Once again, dont let the talking heads and media hot takes lead you astray. Listen to the 2 guys who know these prospects the best, Givony and Schmitz.

“Has good size for an NBA power forward, at 6-foot-10, 225 pounds with a 7-foot-2 wingspan. Saw most of his minutes at center this season and should be able to play both big man spots in the NBA,” wrote Jonathan Givony. “ Versatile offensive player. Made 37% of his 3-pointers and 75% of his free throws on a fairly large sample. Capable of attacking slower defenders from the perimeter or scoring in the post with either hand. Made more than 60% of his 2-point attempts. Competitive on both ends. Length and excellent timing made him an effective shot-blocker. Uses both hands to protect the rim. Also a productive rebounder.”


Schmitz had The Pelicans @ #13 as the perfect spot for him, so this write up is about them, but very telling:

If there's one big in this draft who perfectly complements Zion Williamson, it's Smith. He spaces the floor as a deadeye shooter while protecting the rim at a high level, two areas in which Williamson is still improving. Smith would allow Williamson to focus on working defenses as a mismatch driver, giving Zion more space to operate. Smith also has the versatility to fit alongside last year's top-10 pick, Jaxson Hayes.- SCHMITZ


So a big who can play NEXT to a Zion type player, but also can play next to a more traditional C like Hayes. Both experts say he can play both PF/C positions. Im telling you, listen to the guys who are the real experts on these players.


He struggled to stay in front of guys. He defended well around the rim, not on the perimeter. Also, Ayton played the 4 in college next to Ristic, and Ayton would be much less valuable playing the 4 for us than the 5. Would you say Ayton coudl play the 4 for us coming out of college?

For this to be a justifiable pick, Phx needs to be 100% certain he can play the 4, meaning they needed to have run him up against our wings in the workout and had him do a litany of sliding drills. My hope is that happened, but for now it is a big question mark because his main weaknesses in college were playmaking (handling and passing), and defending on the perimeter.


Phx was 100% sure they could play together. Jones said it in his interview.

There is a reason Jones is GM and you are not. He played in the NBA. He knows what works. He played for the SSOL Suns. He played with LeBron for years in Miami and Cleveland. I'm sure Monty is in on these discussions as well and has coached for a long time.
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Re: The 2020 NBA Draft - New Poll 

Post#889 » by bwgood77 » Thu Nov 19, 2020 9:09 pm

AtheJ415 wrote:
NTB wrote:
DroughtsOverPHX wrote:
It didn't feel like it around here. If there were people here touting this as a deep draft, I don't remember.
I'm more surprised that it was an expectation by some that we would have a second round pick through buying it if we had to.

Our buffet currently only has sour grapes and spilled milk.


I am sure 70% of the people who is talking highly about other prospects than Jalen didn't know them 2 weeks ago. Nobody even talked about the draft and players this year as much as previous years. People started to watch some highlights and read some mocks and suddenly the draft is deep and has lots of good players that we passed on.


The people who cover the draft for a living considered it deep. Not referencing this board.


Most people here thought it was deep. The only people who do it as a living are people that work in the NBA or the guys that specifically do it for ESPN. Everyone on twitter and stuff just do it on the side as a hobby.
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Re: The 2020 NBA Draft - New Poll 

Post#890 » by AtheJ415 » Thu Nov 19, 2020 9:16 pm

bwgood77 wrote:
AtheJ415 wrote:
Kerrsed wrote:I see a lot of people saying Smith cant play PF and questioning his fit next to Ayton. You guys do realize that he played PF all last season next to a C (Bruno Fernando) who now plays for the Atlanta Hawks right?

Throughout his HS career he also was a PF.


https://www.nbcsports.com/washington/wizards/jalen-smith-says-he-played-out-position-terps

Now dont get me wrong, he played great at C when asked to, that speaks of his versatility. He is a stretch 4 that can also be a stretch 5. I dont care what the Talking Heads say about its easy to grab a guy already in the league that can do what he does at C, but thats BS. 3 Point shooting C's that are also strong defenders are a bit of a rarity. Jokic is one, Vučević, Ibaka, Turner to some point, JJJ. Point being most of the C's that are 3 point shooters arnt really known for their defense, they are more the "Soft" guys, and most of the top defensive type C's are the guys that have their asses planted in the paint.

Now the reason why im bringing up 3 point shooting defensive C's when i just went on a tangent about Smith being a PF and playing next to Ayton is this: David Kevin (@theIVpointplay) brought up something that a lot of you are going to hate, the idea that we very well may look at running Ayton out at PF since his footwork is a bit better. In reality it would be kinda like the position-less SG/SF/PF that you see in the NBA, guys that can play more than one position and not directly defining what they are playing because they have the same skillset as other players. They just play. But instead of SF/PF or SG/SF, we would be doing it at PF/C. Fact is we now have two large (6'11) and long guys that are excellent defenders, excellent rebounders, and can hit the 3 ball. Ayton is the quicker of the two and has better dribbling and footwork. I have also seen more mid-range from Ayton, but im not saying Smith doesnt have that aspect to his game, i just havent watched enough actual games to see it happen.

I could totally see the two playing next to each other, and possibly Ayton playing the position he says he really is (PF) or just outright going position-less like i said. Imagine the defensive possibilities of a Bridges/Ayton/Smith line. Thats not even factoring in CP3's defense.

Once again, dont let the talking heads and media hot takes lead you astray. Listen to the 2 guys who know these prospects the best, Givony and Schmitz.



Schmitz had The Pelicans @ #13 as the perfect spot for him, so this write up is about them, but very telling:



So a big who can play NEXT to a Zion type player, but also can play next to a more traditional C like Hayes. Both experts say he can play both PF/C positions. Im telling you, listen to the guys who are the real experts on these players.


He struggled to stay in front of guys. He defended well around the rim, not on the perimeter. Also, Ayton played the 4 in college next to Ristic, and Ayton would be much less valuable playing the 4 for us than the 5. Would you say Ayton coudl play the 4 for us coming out of college?

For this to be a justifiable pick, Phx needs to be 100% certain he can play the 4, meaning they needed to have run him up against our wings in the workout and had him do a litany of sliding drills. My hope is that happened, but for now it is a big question mark because his main weaknesses in college were playmaking (handling and passing), and defending on the perimeter.


Phx was 100% sure they could play together. Jones said it in his interview.

There is a reason Jones is GM and you are not. He played in the NBA. He knows what works. He played for the SSOL Suns. He played with LeBron for years in Miami and Cleveland. I'm sure Monty is in on these discussions as well and has coached for a long time.


I'm sorry BW, but you're better than that. This is the worst logic anybody can use. By that logic, MJ is the greatest owner in NBA history. Lance Blanks had a fantastic resume before joining the Suns too. He was in the Spurs FO

He had 0, and I repeat 0, front office experience prior to this, and has been universally questioned on a huge amount of moves. If you think he's beyond reproach, then not sure what the point of the message board even is. Might as well bow down to the almighty James Jones since none of us played in the NBA. While we're at it, we should fire Monty and grab Shawn Marion. Let's get the best resumes after all. 7 SOL.

As RedIndian put in another post, our alternative reality roster could actually be better and deeper. And that's before factoring in last season where most of this bungled jobs happened. We could still have Warren and all our 2nd rounders to this team. His 2nd best move was because he failed to communicate effectively with the teams in a trade and thought he was getting another player. To act like he's above question is dumb.
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Re: The 2020 NBA Draft - New Poll 

Post#891 » by Slim Charless » Thu Nov 19, 2020 9:45 pm

AtheJ415 wrote:
Slim Charless wrote:
bigfoot wrote:
The bridge I've chosen to die is pointing out your complaints about James Jones assets management are bogus. You decided you don't like the way Jones handled trades and dumping draft picks. You then chose to use

a snippet of Lowe's writing as your justification to support your argument. Lowe is just a more well known and connected Gambo. He writes opinion articles. Sure he's well respected but it doesn't make him right nor does it make him more experienced in evaluating talent than Jones and the other Suns front office guys. He certainly does not have experience being around championship cultures nor can he put three championship rings on his fingers. Guaranteed that Lowe does not have the experience of being around players every waking minute of a season and understanding the type of mentality and dedication it takes to get to the promise land.

To me, Jones understands the behind-the-scenes culture of what it takes to win. If he sacrifices 2nd round picks to build/repair that culture I don't care. If he passes on players mocked higher that he doesn't believe fit the culture I'm okay with that. And being that Lowe got his start as an analytics guy, I'm sure you can find articles about the odds of 2nd round and late 1st round picks ever panning out. For every Dragic type gotten in the second round, there are 95 others who didn't make the cut. Those aren't great odds. That seems to be the bridge your willing to die on when you lament about giving up second-round picks.



This obsession that he has with bringing up Luka is hilarious too. With absolutely no proof he just goes and declares that Jones would take JJJ is funny. This is despite the fact the Jones loves to take kids with multiple years of experience and who are smart. That's EXACTLY what Luka's rep was coming out. Everything Jones has shown us leads to him taking Luka with no hesitation.

He's salty his guy didn't get taken and is spamming the board with complaints. There's a number of mocks that had Smith being taken in 13-16 range. We have no proof that he'd still be there if we traded down to 18 or wherever. Boston and other teams needed a big.

Plus, he played PF in college, the constant comments about how the kid's a C are funny when they're followed immediately by complaints about how weak his base and thin his legs are. He's a 4, besides with Ayton there we hopefully have an anchor for our defense and this kid can do things that he excells at like blindside blocks.


The proof is obvious. James Jones likes to go against the grain and has repeatedly stated the criteria he looks for in a draft pick. He has also followed that same criteria in FA signings. Luka fits only 1 of the 3 criteria, and the 2 he didn't fit were ones he was terrible at. If Jones wanted Luka and Sarver knew he was going to replace McD with him as rumored, then we'd have Luka.

Please provide ANY proof in Jones's history as our GM that in an absolutely loaded draft, he would go for the youngest player at the top with a low defensive ceiling and huge shooting question marks, and who was considered by many / most to be the 1st or 2nd best player in the draft.


Luka fills at least 2 if not all of the criteria Jones loves:


He's smart.
He can shoot
He had at the time more experience than anyone else as he's been playing pro for YEARS before that draft.

Where do you get JJJ of players is wild. Wasn't he the youngest player in that class? He was barely over 18 I thought. Luka was better in every way except defense even back then.

Back to the point though. Smith has never-to my knowledge played C in his life. He's been a 4 this whole time and all of a sudden he's a C now-but he has a weak base and isn't very strong? That makes no sense. He's a more athletic Toppin with less scoring ability but better defensive capabilities.
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Re: The 2020 NBA Draft - New Poll 

Post#892 » by sunsbg » Thu Nov 19, 2020 9:45 pm

Jones should have done something more creative and moved up to grab Hayes. Pistons fans are delighted with the pick. Or just taken one of the other PGs like Haliburton, Lewis. Let the rookie learn from Paul for two seasons. Also now the frontcourt is too young, spending most FA money on veteran PF makes more sense with Ayton and Cam as probable starters. In addition a quick look at next year's mock drafts shows it's loaded with PFs/Cs and lacks quality at the PG position.
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Re: The 2020 NBA Draft - New Poll 

Post#893 » by Blackification » Thu Nov 19, 2020 9:49 pm

sunsbg wrote:Jones should have done something more creative and moved up to grab Hayes. Pistons fans are delighted with the pick. Or just taken one of the other PGs like Haliburton, Lewis. Let the rookie learn from Paul for two seasons. Also now the frontcourt is too young, spending most FA money on veteran PF makes more sense with Ayton and Cam as probable starters. In addition a quick look at next year's mock drafts shows it's loaded with PFs/Cs and lacks quality at the PG position.

I remember how excited I was for Josh Jackson, or Bender and Chriss. You just never know how it's going to play out, James Jones got his guy it seems like and the only people other than him they would have realistically wanted seems to be Obi or Deni.

Was it Gambo that reported we weren't looking at a guard for this draft? It really seems to be true
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Re: The 2020 NBA Draft - New Poll 

Post#894 » by bwgood77 » Thu Nov 19, 2020 9:49 pm

AtheJ415 wrote:
bwgood77 wrote:There is a reason Jones is GM and you are not. He played in the NBA. He knows what works. He played for the SSOL Suns. He played with LeBron for years in Miami and Cleveland. I'm sure Monty is in on these discussions as well and has coached for a long time.


I'm sorry BW, but you're better than that. This is the worst logic anybody can use. By that logic, MJ is the greatest owner in NBA history. Lance Blanks had a fantastic resume before joining the Suns too. He was in the Spurs FO

He had 0, and I repeat 0, front office experience prior to this, and has been universally questioned on a huge amount of moves. If you think he's beyond reproach, then not sure what the point of the message board even is. Might as well bow down to the almighty James Jones since none of us played in the NBA. While we're at it, we should fire Monty and grab Shawn Marion. Let's get the best resumes after all. 7 SOL.

As RedIndian put in another post, our alternative reality roster could actually be better and deeper. And that's before factoring in last season where most of this bungled jobs happened. We could still have Warren and all our 2nd rounders to this team. His 2nd best move was because he failed to communicate effectively with the teams in a trade and thought he was getting another player. To act like he's above question is dumb.


The thing is, a good GM doesn't look at all these fan mock drafts, so people yelling about the team not following their own mocks, or mocks their twitter buddies did, are, quite frankly, being ridiculous. Even guys like Kevin O'Connor don't have much experience with this and are just doing it for Bill Simmons and the fans.

You do have the DX guys, but they always mostly stick with their initial projections out of HS with some slight changes for guys like Toppin and Haliburton and are off. Other sportswriters at like CBS and stuff write about a lot of stuff and don't do much. I know Spencer Pearlman, for example, spends most of his time scouting, but he doesn't even do a mock, because he knows it depends on what teams value in players and that good GMs don't follow mocks.

I don't think MJ is the type that makes a good talent evaluator. Jones is very intuitive. I think he misjudges trade value, but who knows for sure what the exact circumstances are.

Not sure what you mean by the Marion/Monty comment. Monty played in the NBA for 9 years and has coached for a number of years.

I didn't start arguing about free agency stuff though, but have only been talking about the draft here in the draft thread

. I liked Warren better than Oubre and Jackson. I would have kept him. I don't know if he wanted out or what. I thought the value sucked.

I wouldn't have traded for Chris Paul, even though we will likely be better if healthy.

I would have not traded Ryan Anderson for Tyler Johnson. I would have stretched Jackson and kept Melton.

I wouldn't have traded this year's Bucks first for Ty Jerome and Baynes (though I ended up loving Baynes).

Of course not doing the TJ or Jackson/Melton trades I would still have the 2nds.

But as draft evaluators, these guys have WAY more knowledge and know WAY more about basketball and team chemistry than you and I ever will.

There is a reason Jones and Monty created a team with great chemistry and culture after what we saw with non basketball player/coach in McD who built a roster no coach could have done anything with. His best team was mostly a team he inherited that he was trying to dismantle.
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Re: The 2020 NBA Draft - New Poll 

Post#895 » by bwgood77 » Thu Nov 19, 2020 9:51 pm

sunsbg wrote:Jones should have done something more creative and moved up to grab Hayes. Pistons fans are delighted with the pick. Or just taken one of the other PGs like Haliburton, Lewis. Let the rookie learn from Paul for two seasons. Also now the frontcourt is too young, spending most FA money on veteran PF makes more sense with Ayton and Cam as probable starters. In addition a quick look at next year's mock drafts shows it's loaded with PFs/Cs and lacks quality at the PG position.


This PG class kind of sucked. When LaMelo Ball, a worse version of his brother is the best PG in the draft, or at least the "consensus" best one, it's not a good draft for PGs.

I think this draft may have 1-2 guys who end up as long term starters. The rest will either bust or be energy type guards off the bench...or a 3rd guard like Haliburton.
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Re: The 2020 NBA Draft - New Poll 

Post#896 » by Blackification » Thu Nov 19, 2020 9:52 pm

Let's also not forget the character and off the court factor, we don't know all that goes behind the scenes and in these interviews, we don't need another Josh Jackson or Chriss
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Re: The 2020 NBA Draft - New Poll 

Post#897 » by bwgood77 » Thu Nov 19, 2020 9:54 pm

I forgot to add that after some of our guys who do deep dives into a lot of the prospects, looked at the info, I really liked Jalen Smith and thought the Suns might pick him. I just more recently had felt Kira or Nesmith might be the picks based on discussion the last few weeks...and then Vassell with the lists last night....though I always liked Vassell (never cared for Kira and Nesmith).

Here was my comment on the NBA Draft forum's mock from a while back:

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1998777#p85160745

A couple of other guys above that link mentioned Jalen as the pick too...in addition to the guys I already mentioned on our board, who look at these draft guys in way more detail than the twitter fans...one popular twitter fan who even does podcasts and stuff said he didn't even know who Smith was so he obviously didn't know much about the draft.
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Re: The 2020 NBA Draft - New Poll 

Post#898 » by sunsbg » Thu Nov 19, 2020 10:03 pm

bwgood77 wrote:
sunsbg wrote:Jones should have done something more creative and moved up to grab Hayes. Pistons fans are delighted with the pick. Or just taken one of the other PGs like Haliburton, Lewis. Let the rookie learn from Paul for two seasons. Also now the frontcourt is too young, spending most FA money on veteran PF makes more sense with Ayton and Cam as probable starters. In addition a quick look at next year's mock drafts shows it's loaded with PFs/Cs and lacks quality at the PG position.


This PG class kind of sucked. When LaMelo Ball, a worse version of his brother is the best PG in the draft, or at least the "consensus" best one, it's not a good draft for PGs.

I think this draft may have 1-2 guys who end up as long term starters. The rest will either bust or be energy type guards off the bench...or a 3rd guard like Haliburton.


I like Hayes, some consider him the best prospect in this draft, so wonder what it would have taken to move up and take him. After Cunningham next year's draft looks even less impressive on PGs. They better have a long-term plan as Paul is not getting younger.
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Re: The 2020 NBA Draft - New Poll 

Post#899 » by Djedefre » Thu Nov 19, 2020 10:07 pm

As i figured... McD's tenure is serving as a universal excuse for Jones and his deficiencies as a GM. Ok, continue covering your eyes, it's fine by me. In 2 yrs this franchise will be in even worse spot than when McD left.
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Re: The 2020 NBA Draft - New Poll 

Post#900 » by bigfoot » Thu Nov 19, 2020 10:08 pm

bwgood77 wrote:
AtheJ415 wrote:
bwgood77 wrote:There is a reason Jones is GM and you are not. He played in the NBA. He knows what works. He played for the SSOL Suns. He played with LeBron for years in Miami and Cleveland. I'm sure Monty is in on these discussions as well and has coached for a long time.


I'm sorry BW, but you're better than that. This is the worst logic anybody can use. By that logic, MJ is the greatest owner in NBA history. Lance Blanks had a fantastic resume before joining the Suns too. He was in the Spurs FO

He had 0, and I repeat 0, front office experience prior to this, and has been universally questioned on a huge amount of moves. If you think he's beyond reproach, then not sure what the point of the message board even is. Might as well bow down to the almighty James Jones since none of us played in the NBA. While we're at it, we should fire Monty and grab Shawn Marion. Let's get the best resumes after all. 7 SOL.

As RedIndian put in another post, our alternative reality roster could actually be better and deeper. And that's before factoring in last season where most of this bungled jobs happened. We could still have Warren and all our 2nd rounders to this team. His 2nd best move was because he failed to communicate effectively with the teams in a trade and thought he was getting another player. To act like he's above question is dumb.


The thing is, a good GM doesn't look at all these fan mock drafts, so people yelling about the team not following their own mocks, or mocks their twitter buddies did, are, quite frankly, being ridiculous. Even guys like Kevin O'Connor don't have much experience with this and are just doing it for Bill Simmons and the fans.

You do have the DX guys, but they always mostly stick with their initial projections out of HS with some slight changes for guys like Toppin and Haliburton and are off. Other sportswriters at like CBS and stuff write about a lot of stuff and don't do much. I know Spencer Pearlman, for example, spends most of his time scouting, but he doesn't even do a mock, because he knows it depends on what teams value in players and that good GMs don't follow mocks.

I don't think MJ is the type that makes a good talent evaluator. Jones is very intuitive. I think he misjudges trade value, but who knows for sure what the exact circumstances are.

Not sure what you mean by the Marion/Monty comment. Monty played in the NBA for 9 years and has coached for a number of years.

I didn't start arguing about free agency stuff though, but have only been talking about the draft here in the draft thread

. I liked Warren better than Oubre and Jackson. I would have kept him. I don't know if he wanted out or what. I thought the value sucked.

I wouldn't have traded for Chris Paul, even though we will likely be better if healthy.

I would have not traded Ryan Anderson for Tyler Johnson. I would have stretched Jackson and kept Melton.

I wouldn't have traded this year's Bucks first for Ty Jerome and Baynes (though I ended up loving Baynes).

Of course not doing the TJ or Jackson/Melton trades I would still have the 2nds.

But as draft evaluators, these guys have WAY more knowledge and know WAY more about basketball and team chemistry than you and I ever will.

There is a reason Jones and Monty created a team with great chemistry and culture after what we saw with non basketball player/coach in McD who built a roster no coach could have done anything with. His best team was mostly a team he inherited that he was trying to dismantle.


100% ... McD dismantled a winning team into a bunch of 18-year-olds and four coaches with a perpetually losing culture. McD turned the Suns into a laughing stock that no veteran wanted to join.

In one off-season, Jones turned the Titanic by bringing in veterans like Rubio, Saric, Baynes, and Kaminsky. Attracts a quality coach in Monty. He dumped Jackson and Bender and brought in decent young players like Carter, Johnson, and Payne. He let veterans like Tyson Chandler and Tyler Johnson walk so they had a chance to sign with playoff teams in order to rebuild the Suns reputation with outside players.

Yes ... Jones is rebuilding the proud culture the Suns once had. Who would have thought Chris Paul wanted to be in Phoenix? Certainly not under the McD reign of terror. Jones can dump as many 2nd round picks as he wants. He can draft his BPA instead of following the freaking mock drafts. As far as I'm concerned he doesn't have a long leash ... they guy doesn't need a leash.

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