ImageImageImage

The 2020 NBA Draft

Moderators: bwgood77, Qwigglez, lilfishi22, Kerrsed

Are you happy with the Jalen Smith pick?

Yes, without a doubt
20
30%
Yes, but I would have preferred Haliburton or Vassell or maybe Bey or Lewis
29
43%
No, I would have preferred one of the above guys
12
18%
No, there were at least 10 guys I would have taken over him.
6
9%
 
Total votes: 67

User avatar
Kerrsed
Senior Mod - Suns
Senior Mod - Suns
Posts: 29,294
And1: 15,869
Joined: Mar 31, 2009
Location: Land of the Internet Memes
Contact:
     

Re: The 2020 NBA Draft - New Poll 

Post#921 » by Kerrsed » Fri Nov 20, 2020 2:57 am

Young gun 6 wrote:See the news on Haliburton potentially telling teams not to pick him as he wanted Sacramento ?


Yup.

https://www.sacbee.com/sports/article247300064.html

I wonder if that was the person who we heard might slide, and makes huge sense why James Jones passed as well. Jones doesnt seem like the type of GM that respects players who would do that kind of thing.
Its #DUMPSTERFIRE SEASON! #TeamTRAINWRECK -KERRSED- The Mod, The Myth, The Legend
Image
theSUNalsoRISES
Sophomore
Posts: 158
And1: 102
Joined: Jun 18, 2015
     

Re: The 2020 NBA Draft - New Poll 

Post#922 » by theSUNalsoRISES » Fri Nov 20, 2020 3:10 am

Kerrsed wrote:
Young gun 6 wrote:See the news on Haliburton potentially telling teams not to pick him as he wanted Sacramento ?


Yup.

https://www.sacbee.com/sports/article247300064.html

I wonder if that was the person who we heard might slide, and makes huge sense why James Jones passed as well. Jones doesnt seem like the type of GM that respects players who would do that kind of thing.



So you guys are in the camp that minnesota were correct in not taking Step Curry? that's a bold take guys.
AtheJ415
Lead Assistant
Posts: 5,426
And1: 4,184
Joined: Jul 07, 2014

Re: The 2020 NBA Draft - New Poll 

Post#923 » by AtheJ415 » Fri Nov 20, 2020 7:16 am

Slim Charless wrote:
AtheJ415 wrote:
Slim Charless wrote:

This obsession that he has with bringing up Luka is hilarious too. With absolutely no proof he just goes and declares that Jones would take JJJ is funny. This is despite the fact the Jones loves to take kids with multiple years of experience and who are smart. That's EXACTLY what Luka's rep was coming out. Everything Jones has shown us leads to him taking Luka with no hesitation.

He's salty his guy didn't get taken and is spamming the board with complaints. There's a number of mocks that had Smith being taken in 13-16 range. We have no proof that he'd still be there if we traded down to 18 or wherever. Boston and other teams needed a big.

Plus, he played PF in college, the constant comments about how the kid's a C are funny when they're followed immediately by complaints about how weak his base and thin his legs are. He's a 4, besides with Ayton there we hopefully have an anchor for our defense and this kid can do things that he excells at like blindside blocks.


The proof is obvious. James Jones likes to go against the grain and has repeatedly stated the criteria he looks for in a draft pick. He has also followed that same criteria in FA signings. Luka fits only 1 of the 3 criteria, and the 2 he didn't fit were ones he was terrible at. If Jones wanted Luka and Sarver knew he was going to replace McD with him as rumored, then we'd have Luka.

Please provide ANY proof in Jones's history as our GM that in an absolutely loaded draft, he would go for the youngest player at the top with a low defensive ceiling and huge shooting question marks, and who was considered by many / most to be the 1st or 2nd best player in the draft.


Luka fills at least 2 if not all of the criteria Jones loves:


He's smart.
He can shoot
He had at the time more experience than anyone else as he's been playing pro for YEARS before that draft.

Where do you get JJJ of players is wild. Wasn't he the youngest player in that class? He was barely over 18 I thought. Luka was better in every way except defense even back then.

Back to the point though. Smith has never-to my knowledge played C in his life. He's been a 4 this whole time and all of a sudden he's a C now-but he has a weak base and isn't very strong? That makes no sense. He's a more athletic Toppin with less scoring ability but better defensive capabilities.


Luka was nowhere near considered a good shooter coming out, and he's always and still is regarded as a terrible defender, so he checks 1 of the 3 boxes Jones claims to look for. You're also separating out intelligence and passing into 2 separate areas which is not how Jones has ever described it. High IQ is typically a synonym for good passer. You could say offensive and defensive awareness too but that's included in a good defender or all around offensive player to begin with. If you wnated to go that route, fine, but then he checks only 2/5 boxes b/c defensive awareness would have to be its own.

Jones knew he was going to be the GM, as did Sarver. If he wanted Luka, we'd have Luka right now. Also, at no point in Jones's entire GM history has he ever targeted a guy in the draft who was even considered a below average playmaker at his position.
Mikal Bridges (biggest weakness is dribbling), Cam (non-playmaker), Jevon Carter (complete non-playmaking PG), and Jalen Smith (averages more turnovers than assists). Even Oubre and Dillon Brooks. He has shown no propensity to value a playmaking, non-shooting, non-defender forward. He very clearly values playmaking at the 1 with Book and everyone else being a 3 and D guy. That's been the makeup of every lineup he has tried to add.

Also the bold is not true, and the reason he's seen as a 5 is because if a player struggles to stay in front of players in college, and has the size to move up, he typically does. NBA quickness is a different animal. Ayton was a 4 in college. Do you see Ayton as a 4 in the NBA? No. Smith is seen as a 5 for valid reasons. If he improves his quickness could he play the 4? Sure. For this pick to be justifiable he has to be able to play it because to spend the 10th pick on a backup center to your current center would be GM malpractice. Point being, it's not out of the question Smith might be able to play the 4 in the NBA, but to act like it's not a valid question as to whether he can stay in front of NBA players at that position would be wrong.
User avatar
RedIndian
Junior
Posts: 469
And1: 560
Joined: May 23, 2010

Re: The 2020 NBA Draft - New Poll 

Post#924 » by RedIndian » Fri Nov 20, 2020 9:16 am

AtheJ415 wrote:
Slim Charless wrote:
AtheJ415 wrote:
The proof is obvious. James Jones likes to go against the grain and has repeatedly stated the criteria he looks for in a draft pick. He has also followed that same criteria in FA signings. Luka fits only 1 of the 3 criteria, and the 2 he didn't fit were ones he was terrible at. If Jones wanted Luka and Sarver knew he was going to replace McD with him as rumored, then we'd have Luka.

Please provide ANY proof in Jones's history as our GM that in an absolutely loaded draft, he would go for the youngest player at the top with a low defensive ceiling and huge shooting question marks, and who was considered by many / most to be the 1st or 2nd best player in the draft.


Luka fills at least 2 if not all of the criteria Jones loves:


He's smart.
He can shoot
He had at the time more experience than anyone else as he's been playing pro for YEARS before that draft.

Where do you get JJJ of players is wild. Wasn't he the youngest player in that class? He was barely over 18 I thought. Luka was better in every way except defense even back then.

Back to the point though. Smith has never-to my knowledge played C in his life. He's been a 4 this whole time and all of a sudden he's a C now-but he has a weak base and isn't very strong? That makes no sense. He's a more athletic Toppin with less scoring ability but better defensive capabilities.


Luka was nowhere near considered a good shooter coming out, and he's always and still is regarded as a terrible defender, so he checks 1 of the 3 boxes Jones claims to look for. You're also separating out intelligence and passing into 2 separate areas which is not how Jones has ever described it. High IQ is typically a synonym for good passer. You could say offensive and defensive awareness too but that's included in a good defender or all around offensive player to begin with. If you wnated to go that route, fine, but then he checks only 2/5 boxes b/c defensive awareness would have to be its own.

Jones knew he was going to be the GM, as did Sarver. If he wanted Luka, we'd have Luka right now. Also, at no point in Jones's entire GM history has he ever targeted a guy in the draft who was even considered a below average playmaker at his position.
Mikal Bridges (biggest weakness is dribbling), Cam (non-playmaker), Jevon Carter (complete non-playmaking PG), and Jalen Smith (averages more turnovers than assists). Even Oubre and Dillon Brooks. He has shown no propensity to value a playmaking, non-shooting, non-defender forward. He very clearly values playmaking at the 1 with Book and everyone else being a 3 and D guy. That's been the makeup of every lineup he has tried to add.

Also the bold is not true, and the reason he's seen as a 5 is because if a player struggles to stay in front of players in college, and has the size to move up, he typically does. NBA quickness is a different animal. Ayton was a 4 in college. Do you see Ayton as a 4 in the NBA? No. Smith is seen as a 5 for valid reasons. If he improves his quickness could he play the 4? Sure. For this pick to be justifiable he has to be able to play it because to spend the 10th pick on a backup center to your current center would be GM malpractice. Point being, it's not out of the question Smith might be able to play the 4 in the NBA, but to act like it's not a valid question as to whether he can stay in front of NBA players at that position would be wrong.

In almost every interview about the draft with Jones this year, he mentioned playmaking as something they were looking to add.

Ended up drafting a center averaging 0.8 assists and 1.7 turnovers.

Perplexing.
Bogyo
Sixth Man
Posts: 1,567
And1: 849
Joined: Jul 29, 2013

Re: The 2020 NBA Draft - New Poll 

Post#925 » by Bogyo » Fri Nov 20, 2020 10:12 am

sunskerr wrote:I also agree with the sentiment that whilst I really like how Jones has improved the roster, it feels like he hasn't squeezed the orange on a lot these moves. But this front office is extremely tight-lipped so I think it's impossible to say for sure.


It's impossible to tell most all of the front offices, becouse if they are not tight lipped, then itt becomes a he-said-she-said situation where at least one party is not allowed to air all of his stories/claims as their contracts have non-disclosures.

But I FULLY agree with you on not squeezing the orange. I (and others) have had this feeling EVERY time he makes a move or doesn't make one, becouse most likely he is not trying hard enough, and most all of the signs point in this direction. So I'm guessing it's true. Question is why? Is he trying to be too nice to players and other GMs? Lazy? Afraid to get a bad rep? Afraid to lose his job if he goes for a home-run and s*its the bed instead? Not sure. But if we carry on like this, I guarantee we will not be winning any championships soon. We will be in the playoffs most of the times with a higher floor, but my dog could have made most of his moves.

As for the drafts/mocks etc... yeah, some of them are not very good, some are... there are good and bad picks every year, diamonds in the rough, etc - nothing is going to change that. The mocks are also made by people who are getting paid to do it - and there are more of them involved than the Suns scouting department, so they could have more info/more eyes, etc... So disregarding that huge amount of data and info is just as bad imho. Look at the Grizz drafting and their results with it.
User avatar
bwgood77
Global Mod
Global Mod
Posts: 67,495
And1: 38,743
Joined: Feb 06, 2009
Location: Austin
Contact:
   

Re: The 2020 NBA Draft - New Poll 

Post#926 » by bwgood77 » Fri Nov 20, 2020 7:04 pm

AtheJ415 wrote:
Slim Charless wrote:
AtheJ415 wrote:
The proof is obvious. James Jones likes to go against the grain and has repeatedly stated the criteria he looks for in a draft pick. He has also followed that same criteria in FA signings. Luka fits only 1 of the 3 criteria, and the 2 he didn't fit were ones he was terrible at. If Jones wanted Luka and Sarver knew he was going to replace McD with him as rumored, then we'd have Luka.

Please provide ANY proof in Jones's history as our GM that in an absolutely loaded draft, he would go for the youngest player at the top with a low defensive ceiling and huge shooting question marks, and who was considered by many / most to be the 1st or 2nd best player in the draft.


Luka fills at least 2 if not all of the criteria Jones loves:


He's smart.
He can shoot
He had at the time more experience than anyone else as he's been playing pro for YEARS before that draft.

Where do you get JJJ of players is wild. Wasn't he the youngest player in that class? He was barely over 18 I thought. Luka was better in every way except defense even back then.

Back to the point though. Smith has never-to my knowledge played C in his life. He's been a 4 this whole time and all of a sudden he's a C now-but he has a weak base and isn't very strong? That makes no sense. He's a more athletic Toppin with less scoring ability but better defensive capabilities.


Luka was nowhere near considered a good shooter coming out, and he's always and still is regarded as a terrible defender, so he checks 1 of the 3 boxes Jones claims to look for. You're also separating out intelligence and passing into 2 separate areas which is not how Jones has ever described it. High IQ is typically a synonym for good passer. You could say offensive and defensive awareness too but that's included in a good defender or all around offensive player to begin with. If you wnated to go that route, fine, but then he checks only 2/5 boxes b/c defensive awareness would have to be its own.

Jones knew he was going to be the GM, as did Sarver. If he wanted Luka, we'd have Luka right now. Also, at no point in Jones's entire GM history has he ever targeted a guy in the draft who was even considered a below average playmaker at his position.
Mikal Bridges (biggest weakness is dribbling), Cam (non-playmaker), Jevon Carter (complete non-playmaking PG), and Jalen Smith (averages more turnovers than assists). Even Oubre and Dillon Brooks. He has shown no propensity to value a playmaking, non-shooting, non-defender forward. He very clearly values playmaking at the 1 with Book and everyone else being a 3 and D guy. That's been the makeup of every lineup he has tried to add.

Also the bold is not true, and the reason he's seen as a 5 is because if a player struggles to stay in front of players in college, and has the size to move up, he typically does. NBA quickness is a different animal. Ayton was a 4 in college. Do you see Ayton as a 4 in the NBA? No. Smith is seen as a 5 for valid reasons. If he improves his quickness could he play the 4? Sure. For this pick to be justifiable he has to be able to play it because to spend the 10th pick on a backup center to your current center would be GM malpractice. Point being, it's not out of the question Smith might be able to play the 4 in the NBA, but to act like it's not a valid question as to whether he can stay in front of NBA players at that position would be wrong.


Jut reading the first sentence, Luka was known as a great shooter coming out, despite the percentages. He just played on a condensed floor with less spacing and was heavily guarded by multiple defenders. He was always a very tough shot maker. Peopla arguing against him in the draft just quickly looked at his percentages argued against him with limited info and zero context. He could make all kind of shots, off the dribble, catch and shoot, etc, but was rarely open with the limited spacing. The 3 pt line being closer actually hurts for spacing purposes too because defenders can close out more quickly. He would often make deep shots, and shot more of those and more heaves which impacted his percentages as well.

Also, Jones didn't know he would be GM...if that's the case he would have been GM before that draft, not after. Jones would have almost certainly taken Luka if it was up to him, since Luka was the closest thing to LeBron since LeBron came into the NBA...a guy Jones played a lot with. And with Sarver enamored with Luka after loving Nash as a great passer/shooter and the two of them visiting him, they likely take him, but McD was still there and Sarver, trying not to meddle as much as he used to, wanted to allow it, and those guys likely thought there wasn't a great deal of separation between the two and were ok with either like you were.

As for your other bad points regarding Bridges, Cam, etc...Jones has said time and time again he values guys that can play, can shoot, defend and move the ball. Bridges and Cam can do those things.
User avatar
bwgood77
Global Mod
Global Mod
Posts: 67,495
And1: 38,743
Joined: Feb 06, 2009
Location: Austin
Contact:
   

Re: The 2020 NBA Draft - New Poll 

Post#927 » by bwgood77 » Fri Nov 20, 2020 7:17 pm

Bogyo wrote:
sunskerr wrote:I also agree with the sentiment that whilst I really like how Jones has improved the roster, it feels like he hasn't squeezed the orange on a lot these moves. But this front office is extremely tight-lipped so I think it's impossible to say for sure.


It's impossible to tell most all of the front offices, becouse if they are not tight lipped, then itt becomes a he-said-she-said situation where at least one party is not allowed to air all of his stories/claims as their contracts have non-disclosures.

But I FULLY agree with you on not squeezing the orange. I (and others) have had this feeling EVERY time he makes a move or doesn't make one, becouse most likely he is not trying hard enough, and most all of the signs point in this direction. So I'm guessing it's true. Question is why? Is he trying to be too nice to players and other GMs? Lazy? Afraid to get a bad rep? Afraid to lose his job if he goes for a home-run and s*its the bed instead? Not sure. But if we carry on like this, I guarantee we will not be winning any championships soon. We will be in the playoffs most of the times with a higher floor, but my dog could have made most of his moves.

As for the drafts/mocks etc... yeah, some of them are not very good, some are... there are good and bad picks every year, diamonds in the rough, etc - nothing is going to change that. The mocks are also made by people who are getting paid to do it - and there are more of them involved than the Suns scouting department, so they could have more info/more eyes, etc... So disregarding that huge amount of data and info is just as bad imho. Look at the Grizz drafting and their results with it.


I listed earlier that I didn't agree with most all of his moves outside of the draft, but I did like the Monty hiring and I like the core roster he had assembled, in 1 year, after years of putrid rosters....despite the methods, it looked like a different team, vibe, culture, chemistry...and that typically takes time.

For many reasons I have outlined, I wouldn't have done the Paul trade, especially with the pick, but am fine with it, and will let it play out and see. I would have preferred keeping Rubio, trading Oubre for Gordon and drafting Haliburton or possibly Vassell, but we will wait and see. Chris Paul, a great finishing, 3 pt shooting and shot blocking big is something of a rarity in the NBA, so I like the pick...and always thought we needed this type of player as a different type to backup or possibly play with Ayton. I wanted him as the pick if Haliburton and Vassell were gone, and I understand his concerns with Haliburton, concerns that many had, along with his low release shooting...and Vassell's shooting form had really become a bit of a concern.
sunsbg
Sixth Man
Posts: 1,762
And1: 1,053
Joined: Feb 29, 2016

Re: The 2020 NBA Draft 

Post#928 » by sunsbg » Fri Nov 20, 2020 7:41 pm

Luka had good form on his shot, but he was also taking those step-backs in EL games without great efficiently, at least in the few games I watched. If Sarver and Jones saw him in a game he didn't look that great maybe this had a negative effect on their decision. If Sarver saw a taller Nash in Doncic no way he lets McD pick Ayton.
User avatar
Ghost of Kleine
Assistant Coach
Posts: 4,164
And1: 1,325
Joined: Apr 13, 2012

Re: The 2020 NBA Draft 

Post#929 » by Ghost of Kleine » Fri Nov 20, 2020 8:16 pm

Read on Twitter
?s=09
Image
Bogyo
Sixth Man
Posts: 1,567
And1: 849
Joined: Jul 29, 2013

Re: The 2020 NBA Draft - New Poll 

Post#930 » by Bogyo » Fri Nov 20, 2020 8:56 pm

bwgood77 wrote:
Bogyo wrote:
sunskerr wrote:I also agree with the sentiment that whilst I really like how Jones has improved the roster, it feels like he hasn't squeezed the orange on a lot these moves. But this front office is extremely tight-lipped so I think it's impossible to say for sure.


It's impossible to tell most all of the front offices, becouse if they are not tight lipped, then itt becomes a he-said-she-said situation where at least one party is not allowed to air all of his stories/claims as their contracts have non-disclosures.

But I FULLY agree with you on not squeezing the orange. I (and others) have had this feeling EVERY time he makes a move or doesn't make one, becouse most likely he is not trying hard enough, and most all of the signs point in this direction. So I'm guessing it's true. Question is why? Is he trying to be too nice to players and other GMs? Lazy? Afraid to get a bad rep? Afraid to lose his job if he goes for a home-run and s*its the bed instead? Not sure. But if we carry on like this, I guarantee we will not be winning any championships soon. We will be in the playoffs most of the times with a higher floor, but my dog could have made most of his moves.

As for the drafts/mocks etc... yeah, some of them are not very good, some are... there are good and bad picks every year, diamonds in the rough, etc - nothing is going to change that. The mocks are also made by people who are getting paid to do it - and there are more of them involved than the Suns scouting department, so they could have more info/more eyes, etc... So disregarding that huge amount of data and info is just as bad imho. Look at the Grizz drafting and their results with it.


I listed earlier that I didn't agree with most all of his moves outside of the draft, but I did like the Monty hiring and I like the core roster he had assembled, in 1 year, after years of putrid rosters....despite the methods, it looked like a different team, vibe, culture, chemistry...and that typically takes time.

For many reasons I have outlined, I wouldn't have done the Paul trade, especially with the pick, but am fine with it, and will let it play out and see. I would have preferred keeping Rubio, trading Oubre for Gordon and drafting Haliburton or possibly Vassell, but we will wait and see. Chris Paul, a great finishing, 3 pt shooting and shot blocking big is something of a rarity in the NBA, so I like the pick...and always thought we needed this type of player as a different type to backup or possibly play with Ayton. I wanted him as the pick if Haliburton and Vassell were gone, and I understand his concerns with Haliburton, concerns that many had, along with his low release shooting...and Vassell's shooting form had really become a bit of a concern.



So we moved on from the Earl Watson of GMs (McD) to the Kokoskov of GM's (Jones), the only question is when are we gonna get the Monty of GM's?

(unimportant sidenote: Kokoskov would have had a similarly good record if he had this years roster... it still wouldn't have helped him not resonating with our young players, although he was preaching almost the same 0,5 offense that Monty is)
ImNotMcDiSwear
Head Coach
Posts: 7,083
And1: 4,788
Joined: Dec 14, 2013
 

Re: The 2020 NBA Draft 

Post#931 » by ImNotMcDiSwear » Fri Nov 20, 2020 9:07 pm

sunsbg wrote:Luka had good form on his shot, but he was also taking those step-backs in EL games without great efficiently, at least in the few games I watched. If Sarver and Jones saw him in a game he didn't look that great maybe this had a negative effect on their decision. If Sarver saw a taller Nash in Doncic no way he lets McD pick Ayton.


I thought it was all about Booker. More obvious #1s than Luka are rare. Ayton's physical gifts gave the FO and many others here, including myself, all the excuses in the world to daydream. But even I thought odds were good that we were drafting Hakeem, so to speak.

Now if I were the Kings, I'd be *uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu**ing furious forever about passing on Luka and wonder why the f************ck Vlade didn't draft him. I mean, we at least took Hakeem. They took Sam Bowie.

Look out! Don't look back or you might miss out! These are good times to be a Suns fan -- at least it will be, for as long as CP3 is on the court.
WeekapaugGroove
RealGM
Posts: 15,368
And1: 10,730
Joined: Feb 07, 2010

Re: The 2020 NBA Draft 

Post#932 » by WeekapaugGroove » Fri Nov 20, 2020 9:08 pm

My take is GMs vary from the extreme asset focused to the ones who just want their guys. Both strategies can work or get you in trouble and a balance of the two is probably best.

From the first phase of Jones as a GM he certainly seems to fall in the doesn't care about winning the asset war just wants his guys. So as a fan you just have to understand that and know you might not like the path. Not that we can't bitch or criticize, this is a message board. But just know a head of time the suns won't be draft grade darlings or get nba twitter abuz because they collected some minor assets, it's just not how they are going to operate.

The bottom line is 90% of GM get fired eventually so if you're going to go down I get going down with the roster you wanted.

Sent from my SM-G986U using RealGM mobile app
Life should not be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside in a cloud of smoke, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming Wow! What a Ride!-H.S.T.
User avatar
bwgood77
Global Mod
Global Mod
Posts: 67,495
And1: 38,743
Joined: Feb 06, 2009
Location: Austin
Contact:
   

Re: The 2020 NBA Draft 

Post#933 » by bwgood77 » Fri Nov 20, 2020 9:42 pm

ImNotMcDiSwear wrote:
sunsbg wrote:Luka had good form on his shot, but he was also taking those step-backs in EL games without great efficiently, at least in the few games I watched. If Sarver and Jones saw him in a game he didn't look that great maybe this had a negative effect on their decision. If Sarver saw a taller Nash in Doncic no way he lets McD pick Ayton.


I thought it was all about Booker. More obvious #1s than Luka are rare. Ayton's physical gifts gave the FO and many others here, including myself, all the excuses in the world to daydream. But even I thought odds were good that we were drafting Hakeem, so to speak.

Now if I were the Kings, I'd be *uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu**ing furious forever about passing on Luka and wonder why the f************ck Vlade didn't draft him. I mean, we at least took Hakeem. They took Sam Bowie.

Look out! Don't look back or you might miss out! These are good times to be a Suns fan -- at least it will be, for as long as CP3 is on the court.


Yeah, I think there was probably an argument from McD that Booker is already our main perimeter, ball handler at the time and Ayton was a great fit. He ALWAYS wanted a big and even said in interviews before we got the pick that we would add a big. Plus of course, McD kept saying that Booker and Jackson wanted Ayton.
theSUNalsoRISES
Sophomore
Posts: 158
And1: 102
Joined: Jun 18, 2015
     

Re: The 2020 NBA Draft 

Post#934 » by theSUNalsoRISES » Fri Nov 20, 2020 10:51 pm

I wonder if the Kings took JJJ they'd receive as much **** for passing on Luka. And if you see the JJJ - Morant connection in Memphis - Chris Paul with Jalen Smith could be decent.
Slim Charless
Bench Warmer
Posts: 1,368
And1: 771
Joined: May 10, 2019
   

Re: The 2020 NBA Draft - New Poll 

Post#935 » by Slim Charless » Fri Nov 20, 2020 11:40 pm

AtheJ415 wrote:
Slim Charless wrote:
AtheJ415 wrote:
The proof is obvious. James Jones likes to go against the grain and has repeatedly stated the criteria he looks for in a draft pick. He has also followed that same criteria in FA signings. Luka fits only 1 of the 3 criteria, and the 2 he didn't fit were ones he was terrible at. If Jones wanted Luka and Sarver knew he was going to replace McD with him as rumored, then we'd have Luka.

Please provide ANY proof in Jones's history as our GM that in an absolutely loaded draft, he would go for the youngest player at the top with a low defensive ceiling and huge shooting question marks, and who was considered by many / most to be the 1st or 2nd best player in the draft.


Luka fills at least 2 if not all of the criteria Jones loves:


He's smart.
He can shoot
He had at the time more experience than anyone else as he's been playing pro for YEARS before that draft.

Where do you get JJJ of players is wild. Wasn't he the youngest player in that class? He was barely over 18 I thought. Luka was better in every way except defense even back then.

Back to the point though. Smith has never-to my knowledge played C in his life. He's been a 4 this whole time and all of a sudden he's a C now-but he has a weak base and isn't very strong? That makes no sense. He's a more athletic Toppin with less scoring ability but better defensive capabilities.


Luka was nowhere near considered a good shooter coming out, and he's always and still is regarded as a terrible defender, so he checks 1 of the 3 boxes Jones claims to look for. You're also separating out intelligence and passing into 2 separate areas which is not how Jones has ever described it. High IQ is typically a synonym for good passer. You could say offensive and defensive awareness too but that's included in a good defender or all around offensive player to begin with. If you wnated to go that route, fine, but then he checks only 2/5 boxes b/c defensive awareness would have to be its own.

Jones knew he was going to be the GM, as did Sarver. If he wanted Luka, we'd have Luka right now. Also, at no point in Jones's entire GM history has he ever targeted a guy in the draft who was even considered a below average playmaker at his position.
Mikal Bridges (biggest weakness is dribbling), Cam (non-playmaker), Jevon Carter (complete non-playmaking PG), and Jalen Smith (averages more turnovers than assists). Even Oubre and Dillon Brooks. He has shown no propensity to value a playmaking, non-shooting, non-defender forward. He very clearly values playmaking at the 1 with Book and everyone else being a 3 and D guy. That's been the makeup of every lineup he has tried to add.

Also the bold is not true, and the reason he's seen as a 5 is because if a player struggles to stay in front of players in college, and has the size to move up, he typically does. NBA quickness is a different animal. Ayton was a 4 in college. Do you see Ayton as a 4 in the NBA? No. Smith is seen as a 5 for valid reasons. If he improves his quickness could he play the 4? Sure. For this pick to be justifiable he has to be able to play it because to spend the 10th pick on a backup center to your current center would be GM malpractice. Point being, it's not out of the question Smith might be able to play the 4 in the NBA, but to act like it's not a valid question as to whether he can stay in front of NBA players at that position would be wrong.


Wait, so you're trying to say that Jones was the GM but still just decided to let McD run the draft for......reasons? That's insane. This is like arguing with a Trump voter. If he was to be the GM, he would've been the GM at the draft and made trade decisions. It makes 0 sense to have McD make all the moves THEN step in. That's completely asinine. You've been saying that Jones would take JJJ this whole time, yet here Ayton is on the roster?

To the your final point. I'm not the only one who sees Smith as a PF apparently the Suns do as well. If we had taken Toppin you wouldn't be calling him a 5. Well guess what? Smith is a better defender than Obi.
oddity
Senior
Posts: 624
And1: 687
Joined: Jul 03, 2015
 

Re: The 2020 NBA Draft 

Post#936 » by oddity » Fri Nov 20, 2020 11:48 pm

Jalen Smith has damn near the same build as JJJ and he is a fantastic 4. Don't box in Jalen Smith as purely a backup 5!!!
Slim Charless
Bench Warmer
Posts: 1,368
And1: 771
Joined: May 10, 2019
   

Re: The 2020 NBA Draft 

Post#937 » by Slim Charless » Fri Nov 20, 2020 11:55 pm

oddity wrote:Jalen Smith has damn near the same build as JJJ and he is a fantastic 4. Don't box in Jalen Smith as purely a backup 5!!!


^This. Jalen has an even better shot coming out of college too.
Slim Charless
Bench Warmer
Posts: 1,368
And1: 771
Joined: May 10, 2019
   

Re: The 2020 NBA Draft - New Poll 

Post#938 » by Slim Charless » Sat Nov 21, 2020 1:10 am

Slim Charless wrote:
bwgood77 wrote:
TheLogician wrote:Gambo said the Suns fielded trade calls. He didn't say which teams inquired but I believe that happened because it took Woj/Shams/Gambo until the last second to report the pick. I would have been fine trading down for Smith, or better yet Achiuwa. We could have then added someone like Bane to help with our depth. We could definitely regret passing on Vassell and Haliburton, too. I just hope Smith is as versatile as Jones seems to believe. A backup 3&D center is really not that valuable. We are probably letting the best one we had go in Baynes.


A lot of people including me wanted to keep Baynes, and some wanted to trade for Zubac. Baynes won't be around too much longer and Zubac is a bad fit with Ayton.

Ultimately, Haliburton would have been great, but he is likely a career backup too. I don't really see him as our PG of the future or a guy that could replace Booker at the 2. Same with Vassell. I don't think he ever would have supplanted Booker or Bridges.

This was more of a depth type of draft, outside of a few guys...teams that needed a C taking Wiseman or Okongwu, someone wanting Ball, who isn't a great prospect in a good draft, and maybe a couple other guys...but I don't really see any of the PGs as definite future long term starters. Same with the SGs or wings. Vassell maybe on a different team but probably not for us with Booker and Bridges. I don't think anyone taken after us is a clear cut starter.

Of course 1 or 2 guys taken later will break out and become starters, but it may not be the guys people are thinking. Vassell will probably start in SA, given their roster.

What guy taken after us is a definite starter on another team other than Vassell? Haliburton is probably a 3rd guard behind Fox and Hield. Do you think either of those guys starts for us?

Who else?


Speaking of that. When is Fox due for his next deal? IF Haliburton is so good then he'll take Fox's spot as neither of them really shoot well enough to play SG. If that happens then what's to stop us from going after him? Who's to say that the Kings would be gung ho about resigning him to a big contract if they already have (in their mind) the PGOTF. If we could time signing him with when CP3 is off the books it'd be perfect.



Well, so much for that. Fox just signed 5 yr 163 million dollar deal.
User avatar
sunskerr
Head Coach
Posts: 6,888
And1: 3,091
Joined: Feb 20, 2010
 

Re: The 2020 NBA Draft 

Post#939 » by sunskerr » Sat Nov 21, 2020 1:36 am

Yeah the odds for Haliburton becoming better than Fox is like abysmally small, just like the same odds any other rookie has for becoming better than an established near-star.

Fox only really has one hole in his game which is his shooting and his form isn't broken, so there's a chance he rounds out his game completely if he works on his weakness.
User avatar
bwgood77
Global Mod
Global Mod
Posts: 67,495
And1: 38,743
Joined: Feb 06, 2009
Location: Austin
Contact:
   

Re: The 2020 NBA Draft 

Post#940 » by bwgood77 » Sat Nov 21, 2020 4:27 am

Slim Charless wrote:
oddity wrote:Jalen Smith has damn near the same build as JJJ and he is a fantastic 4. Don't box in Jalen Smith as purely a backup 5!!!


^This. Jalen has an even better shot coming out of college too.


He's really a lot like Toppin, who many wanted, but a better shot blocker.

Return to Phoenix Suns