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Game 11: Phoenix Suns (7-3) @ Washington Wizards (2-8) l Monday l 5:00pm l FSNAZ

Moderators: bwgood77, Qwigglez, lilfishi22, Kerrsed

As a team what should Phoenix improve the most?

Less Turnovers
2
5%
More FT attempts
9
23%
Less ISO hero Booker
4
10%
More physicality
2
5%
Starter unit clicking better
16
40%
Pace (30th in league)
6
15%
Offensive Reb (27th in league)
1
3%
 
Total votes: 40

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Re: Game 11: Phoenix Suns (7-3) @ Washington Wizards (2-8) l Monday l 5:00pm l FSNAZ 

Post#461 » by bwgood77 » Tue Jan 12, 2021 6:58 pm

Bob8 wrote:
bwgood77 wrote:
KLEON wrote:Laughing at the Ayton lovers who finally realize he's complete trash, bust and a scrub. All of you should apologize to Luka. :lol:
I hope they trade his goofy arse at the trade deadline


Hey Mr. "We should draft Ayton #1!" I wasn't one of the 109 people who wanted him because watching him in college I let everyone know he is a finesse player, likes to pass and looks lost on defense.

I wanted Doncic.

However, Ayton has improved in areas more than I expected him to, despite some of these games like tonight where he played like ass.

KLEON wrote:This would probably never happen but I wish we do draft Ayton with the 1st pick and with Doncic not sure he wants to be in the NBA I hope teams pass on him until the 16 pick and then we draft him.


viewtopic.php?f=27&t=1706063&p=66216887#p66216887

Perhaps YOU should be apologizing to Luka?


To be honest, 75% of Suns board, those who are writing, was for Ayton and many were very aggressive towards anyone, who wanted to explain why Luka will be incredibly good in Nba. The sad story behind all that is, that I believed then and I still believe now Luka would have been better in Suns than in Mavs. Put Luka in this years Suns roster instead of Ayton and change CP3 for decent C, which shouldn’t be too difficult knowing the salary CP3 is getting, and Suns looks as favourite to win the league. Just compare Suns and Mavs roster without Ayton/Luka. It’s like day and night.


If you click on the link it was more like 53/47 for Ayton, or 109-98. There may have been some louder people for Ayton, and some foreign non Suns fans that voted for Doncic, but not enough to make it 75% with that many votes.
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Re: Game 11: Phoenix Suns (7-3) @ Washington Wizards (2-8) l Monday l 5:00pm l FSNAZ 

Post#462 » by bigfoot » Tue Jan 12, 2021 7:01 pm

bwgood77 wrote:
Revived wrote:
grumpysaddle wrote:Imagine if we could swap Ayton for Sabonis? DROOOOOOOOOL

I’d rather swap him with Atlanta for Collins and Okongwu. We get slightly worse defensively but much better offensively and athletically. And I think Collins would improve defensively playing alongside elite defensive wings like Bridges and Crowder.

Imagine having a player this explosive in our starting 5 (he can do a lot more than just dunk btw and is much more skilled offensively than Ayton)



Imagine thinking Ayton sucks but also thinking you could trade him for Collins AND Okongwu.


Yeah it's hard to imagine getting much in return for Ayton. It would probably mimic a Wiggins for Russell trade.
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Re: Game 11: Phoenix Suns (7-3) @ Washington Wizards (2-8) l Monday l 5:00pm l FSNAZ 

Post#463 » by bwgood77 » Tue Jan 12, 2021 7:12 pm

Keith_myath wrote:CP3 has looked disinterested the past week.

It wouldn't surprise me if he's **** there isn't an inside man he can draw and dish to. In other words, he can't play to his strengths with a passive DA, a pick 'n' pop Saric, a useless Jones and an injured Smith. If you replaced Ayton with Collins, I bet CP3 would suddenly looked sparked and be finding Collins every chance he could.


He may not like playing with Booker much either, given how he didn't like playing with Harden. Crowder sometimes doesn't seem to like it..the other guys are used to standing around and watching him, but they will have to get used to it.
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Re: Game 11: Phoenix Suns (7-3) @ Washington Wizards (2-8) l Monday l 5:00pm l FSNAZ 

Post#464 » by bwgood77 » Tue Jan 12, 2021 7:17 pm

Barkley6 wrote:The issues with the starting unit starts with CP3 for me. Want to know why we are last in pace? Because CP3 allows the ball to roll to half court before picking it up to give us a full 24 second shot clock. But want to know what also happens? Defenders get set and get a nice 5 seconds to catch their breath while CP3 watches the ball roll and our guys stand still waiting for the offense to start. Then Payne comes in and pushes pace up the floor every possession and we all say "WOW THE BENCH IS CARRYING US!" Well, yeah, it's a lot easier to get good shot attempts against a tired and not set defense, it's not rocket science....CP3 is a good point guard, but he needs to get us into the offense earlier.


This is a good point. I always thought it was stupid or low iq that Bledsoe would let the ball roll when the only real reason to do this is to save shot clock, like at the end of the quarter if there are 5-10 seconds left, but no reason with a full shot clock.

Well he must have learned from Paul. I don't understand the point of this...last night I did only because we were way behind, so preserving the clock makes sense, but only if the offense works quickly too, and we don't.

But yeah, playing against a set defense is huge...most teams worry about transition defense..teams don't have to worry about that with us this year like they did last year.
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Re: Game 11: Phoenix Suns (7-3) @ Washington Wizards (2-8) l Monday l 5:00pm l FSNAZ 

Post#465 » by Bob8 » Tue Jan 12, 2021 7:23 pm

bwgood77 wrote:
Bob8 wrote:
bwgood77 wrote:
Hey Mr. "We should draft Ayton #1!" I wasn't one of the 109 people who wanted him because watching him in college I let everyone know he is a finesse player, likes to pass and looks lost on defense.

I wanted Doncic.

However, Ayton has improved in areas more than I expected him to, despite some of these games like tonight where he played like ass.



viewtopic.php?f=27&t=1706063&p=66216887#p66216887

Perhaps YOU should be apologizing to Luka?


To be honest, 75% of Suns board, those who are writing, was for Ayton and many were very aggressive towards anyone, who wanted to explain why Luka will be incredibly good in Nba. The sad story behind all that is, that I believed then and I still believe now Luka would have been better in Suns than in Mavs. Put Luka in this years Suns roster instead of Ayton and change CP3 for decent C, which shouldn’t be too difficult knowing the salary CP3 is getting, and Suns looks as favourite to win the league. Just compare Suns and Mavs roster without Ayton/Luka. It’s like day and night.


If you click on the link it was more like 53/47 for Ayton, or 109-98. There may have been some louder people for Ayton, and some foreign non Suns fans that voted for Doncic, but not enough to make it 75% with that many votes.


I have written down, those who were writing about this topic, not voting. 75% might not be exact number. But believe me, it was very hostile environment towards Luka's supporters. There were very loud Ayton's supporters, some in between, and only few categorically for Luka.
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Re: Game 11: Phoenix Suns (7-3) @ Washington Wizards (2-8) l Monday l 5:00pm l FSNAZ 

Post#466 » by bwgood77 » Tue Jan 12, 2021 7:23 pm

Barkley6 wrote:
alamin330 wrote:On almost any other team yes. But this is the suns coached by Monty Williams. They only want 3s. Ayton is probably being told to look for the 3 on the corner. They don’t call plays for DA and he’s not a chemistry disrupter. He will do as he’s told even if he doesn’t agree with it. DA is being used like a scrub.


Don't call plays for DA? I'm not talking about running a play for him, I'm talking about when he gets the ball and has no one within 15 feet of him and he refuses to put the ball on the floor. That has NOTHING to do with play calling or coaching or a system. I've seen Mikal, Cam, Book, etc. drive to the cup in similar circumstances, but not DA. That's DA being passive.


The reason this doesn't happen is because of the way the offensive sytem is set up. The whole goal of the .5 offense is to shoot or pass within .5 seconds unless you are a primary ball handler. Most of our team does this.

Perhaps they should tell Ayton to put it on the floor in such cases but they also probably tell him to shoot it if he's open because you can see him doing that in the high post if no one is there, or sometimes in the low post if there is only one guy there with a hook or fadeaway, or if someone can hit him right at the rim like once last night, he dunks it or lays it in.

The don't usually want guys dribbling much. The only time you see guys doing this is if a defender is closing out quickly and they wan t to get by them, but what you are describing is not the case with Ayton. They are probably saying "If you have an open shot, take it, don't start dribbling" like they are telling everyone else. I mean we've heard how this offense is supposed to work time and time again.
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Re: Game 11: Phoenix Suns (7-3) @ Washington Wizards (2-8) l Monday l 5:00pm l FSNAZ 

Post#467 » by bwgood77 » Tue Jan 12, 2021 7:26 pm

nevetsov wrote:
Barkley6 wrote:Two thoughts:

1. The issues with the starting unit starts with CP3 for me. Want to know why we are last in pace? Because CP3 allows the ball to roll to half court before picking it up to give us a full 24 second shot clock. But want to know what also happens? Defenders get set and get a nice 5 seconds to catch their breath while CP3 watches the ball roll and our guys stand still waiting for the offense to start. Then Payne comes in and pushes pace up the floor every possession and we all say "WOW THE BENCH IS CARRYING US!" Well, yeah, it's a lot easier to get good shot attempts against a tired and not set defense, it's not rocket science....CP3 is a good point guard, but he needs to get us into the offense earlier.


Thank you for writing this so I didn't have to!

Pretty simple.

Last year:

Rubio, Book, Mikal, Oubre, Ayton = great
Rubio, Book, Mikal, CamJ, Ayton = great
Therefore
Rubio, Book, Mikal, PF, Ayton = great

Paul, Book, Mikal, PF, Ayton = stinks.
- Book plying like garbage
- Ayton playing like garbage

CP3 is a pound the rock, half court PG.
Rubio maximised the output of the young guys by pushing the tempo and moving the ball.

Something needs to change - either Paul learns how to push it, or Book and DA learn to play half court (which is not their strength).

I think we are fool's gold.


I wouldn't just sub "PF" in there with Rubio. When we started Oubre at 3 and Saric at 4 most of the season, we were not great. It is not until we put Mikal in as a starter with Oubre at the 4 when we started killing people with that lineup.

People forget Mikal didn't start much. He started 32 out of 73 games last year. So prior to bubble, 24 out of 65.

It's clear Saric + Ayton is not a winning combo either, but Ayton with a small ball 4 is. Crowder is a bit closer to a true 4 than a true 3 I think...it seems like when we play more of a SF at 4 we do better.
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Re: Game 11: Phoenix Suns (7-3) @ Washington Wizards (2-8) l Monday l 5:00pm l FSNAZ 

Post#468 » by bwgood77 » Tue Jan 12, 2021 7:39 pm

Bob8 wrote:
bwgood77 wrote:
Bob8 wrote:
To be honest, 75% of Suns board, those who are writing, was for Ayton and many were very aggressive towards anyone, who wanted to explain why Luka will be incredibly good in Nba. The sad story behind all that is, that I believed then and I still believe now Luka would have been better in Suns than in Mavs. Put Luka in this years Suns roster instead of Ayton and change CP3 for decent C, which shouldn’t be too difficult knowing the salary CP3 is getting, and Suns looks as favourite to win the league. Just compare Suns and Mavs roster without Ayton/Luka. It’s like day and night.


If you click on the link it was more like 53/47 for Ayton, or 109-98. There may have been some louder people for Ayton, and some foreign non Suns fans that voted for Doncic, but not enough to make it 75% with that many votes.


I have written down, those who were writing about this topic, not voting. 75% might not be exact number. But believe me, it was very hostile environment towards Luka's supporters. There were very loud Ayton's supporters, some in between, and only few categorically for Luka.


I can think of a lot of the posters here who were for Luka off the top of my head, but not worth getting into. I do think more of the Ayton supporters posted a ton with highlights and stuff like JMac and were getting very mad at the idea we could possibly take Doncic...the "slow, unathletic euro"....there was a lot of back and forth...anyway, not worth rehashing it.
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Re: Game 11: Phoenix Suns (7-3) @ Washington Wizards (2-8) l Monday l 5:00pm l FSNAZ 

Post#469 » by sunsbg » Tue Jan 12, 2021 8:01 pm

Bob8 wrote:I have written down, those who were writing about this topic, not voting. 75% might not be exact number. But believe me, it was very hostile environment towards Luka's supporters. There were very loud Ayton's supporters, some in between, and only few categorically for Luka.


Pushing Luka down people's throat and bringing down Ayton all the time probably had something to do with the hostility. I know you supported your countryman, but in a manner that had the opposite effect of what you probably envisioned.
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Re: Game 11: Phoenix Suns (7-3) @ Washington Wizards (2-8) l Monday l 5:00pm l FSNAZ 

Post#470 » by Bob8 » Tue Jan 12, 2021 8:42 pm

sunsbg wrote:
Bob8 wrote:I have written down, those who were writing about this topic, not voting. 75% might not be exact number. But believe me, it was very hostile environment towards Luka's supporters. There were very loud Ayton's supporters, some in between, and only few categorically for Luka.


Pushing Luka down people's throat and bringing down Ayton all the time probably had something to do with the hostility. I know you supported your countryman, but in a manner that had the opposite effect of what you probably envisioned.


Please read again what I have written back then, if anything I was too pessimistic about Luka and too optimistic about Ayton. And I have never said anything bad about Ayton, I didn't even talk much about him. On the other hand many writers here were talking really bad about Luka, player they didn't know anything about. I guess they have gotten what they want. Athletic monster, who unfortunately doesn't understand basketball.
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Re: Game 11: Phoenix Suns (7-3) @ Washington Wizards (2-8) l Monday l 5:00pm l FSNAZ 

Post#471 » by lilfishi22 » Tue Jan 12, 2021 10:09 pm

bwgood77 wrote:
Barkley6 wrote:The issues with the starting unit starts with CP3 for me. Want to know why we are last in pace? Because CP3 allows the ball to roll to half court before picking it up to give us a full 24 second shot clock. But want to know what also happens? Defenders get set and get a nice 5 seconds to catch their breath while CP3 watches the ball roll and our guys stand still waiting for the offense to start. Then Payne comes in and pushes pace up the floor every possession and we all say "WOW THE BENCH IS CARRYING US!" Well, yeah, it's a lot easier to get good shot attempts against a tired and not set defense, it's not rocket science....CP3 is a good point guard, but he needs to get us into the offense earlier.


This is a good point. I always thought it was stupid or low iq that Bledsoe would let the ball roll when the only real reason to do this is to save shot clock, like at the end of the quarter if there are 5-10 seconds left, but no reason with a full shot clock.

Well he must have learned from Paul. I don't understand the point of this...last night I did only because we were way behind, so preserving the clock makes sense, but only if the offense works quickly too, and we don't.

But yeah, playing against a set defense is huge...most teams worry about transition defense..teams don't have to worry about that with us this year like they did last year.

Looking at Houston, they've consistently been in the top 10 in the league in pace during the Harden era except for the two seasons with CP3 where they were 13th and 26th. I dunno if it's too late to teach an old dog new tricks but the answer might just be to limit his 1st half minutes when we need to be playing quicker and more free flowing and leave the walk the ball up to the halfway mark for later in the game.
alamin330 wrote:This draft reminds me of the 2003 draft.
Lebron - Zion, Barrett like Melo, wade like Culver, garland like tj ford, hunter like bosh, white like Barbosa, Clarke like David West. I think this draft is actually going to be deeper though
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Re: Game 11: Phoenix Suns (7-3) @ Washington Wizards (2-8) l Monday l 5:00pm l FSNAZ 

Post#472 » by oddity » Tue Jan 12, 2021 10:13 pm

Bob8 wrote:
bwgood77 wrote:
Bob8 wrote:
To be honest, 75% of Suns board, those who are writing, was for Ayton and many were very aggressive towards anyone, who wanted to explain why Luka will be incredibly good in Nba. The sad story behind all that is, that I believed then and I still believe now Luka would have been better in Suns than in Mavs. Put Luka in this years Suns roster instead of Ayton and change CP3 for decent C, which shouldn’t be too difficult knowing the salary CP3 is getting, and Suns looks as favourite to win the league. Just compare Suns and Mavs roster without Ayton/Luka. It’s like day and night.


If you click on the link it was more like 53/47 for Ayton, or 109-98. There may have been some louder people for Ayton, and some foreign non Suns fans that voted for Doncic, but not enough to make it 75% with that many votes.


I have written down, those who were writing about this topic, not voting. 75% might not be exact number. But believe me, it was very hostile environment towards Luka's supporters. There were very loud Ayton's supporters, some in between, and only few categorically for Luka.

IIRC, the Luka or Ayton pre-draft poll was pretty close to 50/50. Lots of fans wanted Luka
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Re: Game 11: Phoenix Suns (7-3) @ Washington Wizards (2-8) l Monday l 5:00pm l FSNAZ 

Post#473 » by lilfishi22 » Tue Jan 12, 2021 10:17 pm

It was pretty close to 50/50 to my recollection
alamin330 wrote:This draft reminds me of the 2003 draft.
Lebron - Zion, Barrett like Melo, wade like Culver, garland like tj ford, hunter like bosh, white like Barbosa, Clarke like David West. I think this draft is actually going to be deeper though
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Re: Game 11: Phoenix Suns (7-3) @ Washington Wizards (2-8) l Monday l 5:00pm l FSNAZ 

Post#474 » by cberry78 » Tue Jan 12, 2021 11:19 pm

bwgood77 wrote:
Bob8 wrote:
bwgood77 wrote:
Hey Mr. "We should draft Ayton #1!" I wasn't one of the 109 people who wanted him because watching him in college I let everyone know he is a finesse player, likes to pass and looks lost on defense.

I wanted Doncic.

However, Ayton has improved in areas more than I expected him to, despite some of these games like tonight where he played like ass.



viewtopic.php?f=27&t=1706063&p=66216887#p66216887

Perhaps YOU should be apologizing to Luka?


To be honest, 75% of Suns board, those who are writing, was for Ayton and many were very aggressive towards anyone, who wanted to explain why Luka will be incredibly good in Nba. The sad story behind all that is, that I believed then and I still believe now Luka would have been better in Suns than in Mavs. Put Luka in this years Suns roster instead of Ayton and change CP3 for decent C, which shouldn’t be too difficult knowing the salary CP3 is getting, and Suns looks as favourite to win the league. Just compare Suns and Mavs roster without Ayton/Luka. It’s like day and night.


If you click on the link it was more like 53/47 for Ayton, or 109-98. There may have been some louder people for Ayton, and some foreign non Suns fans that voted for Doncic, but not enough to make it 75% with that many votes.

Come on, we all know Luka won that vote by, like, millions of votes! It was a landslide and it was stolen from him.
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Re: Game 11: Phoenix Suns (7-3) @ Washington Wizards (2-8) l Monday l 5:00pm l FSNAZ 

Post#475 » by lilfishi22 » Wed Jan 13, 2021 12:02 am

cberry78 wrote:
bwgood77 wrote:
Bob8 wrote:
To be honest, 75% of Suns board, those who are writing, was for Ayton and many were very aggressive towards anyone, who wanted to explain why Luka will be incredibly good in Nba. The sad story behind all that is, that I believed then and I still believe now Luka would have been better in Suns than in Mavs. Put Luka in this years Suns roster instead of Ayton and change CP3 for decent C, which shouldn’t be too difficult knowing the salary CP3 is getting, and Suns looks as favourite to win the league. Just compare Suns and Mavs roster without Ayton/Luka. It’s like day and night.


If you click on the link it was more like 53/47 for Ayton, or 109-98. There may have been some louder people for Ayton, and some foreign non Suns fans that voted for Doncic, but not enough to make it 75% with that many votes.

Come on, we all know Luka won that vote by, like, millions of votes! It was a landslide and it was stolen from him.

So many dead people registering on RealGM just to lodge illegitmate vote in our poll!
alamin330 wrote:This draft reminds me of the 2003 draft.
Lebron - Zion, Barrett like Melo, wade like Culver, garland like tj ford, hunter like bosh, white like Barbosa, Clarke like David West. I think this draft is actually going to be deeper though
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Re: Game 11: Phoenix Suns (7-3) @ Washington Wizards (2-8) l Monday l 5:00pm l FSNAZ 

Post#476 » by DroughtsOverPHX » Wed Jan 13, 2021 1:03 am

bigfoot wrote:
alamin330 wrote:
collidingNeurons wrote:Try running up and down an nba court for 7 minutes straight, playing defense on the biggest guys, setting picks for everyone and the coach not calling plays for you and you never get the ball in a spot where you can score. He gets the ball and is immediately doubled. He passes it back out and never gets it back.


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Re: Game 11: Phoenix Suns (7-3) @ Washington Wizards (2-8) l Monday l 5:00pm l FSNAZ 

Post#477 » by bigfoot » Wed Jan 13, 2021 1:04 am

lilfishi22 wrote:
cberry78 wrote:
bwgood77 wrote:
If you click on the link it was more like 53/47 for Ayton, or 109-98. There may have been some louder people for Ayton, and some foreign non Suns fans that voted for Doncic, but not enough to make it 75% with that many votes.

Come on, we all know Luka won that vote by, like, millions of votes! It was a landslide and it was stolen from him.

So many dead people registering on RealGM just to lodge illegitmate vote in our poll!


Definitely, people voting hundreds of times.
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Re: Game 11: Phoenix Suns (7-3) @ Washington Wizards (2-8) l Monday l 5:00pm l FSNAZ 

Post#478 » by nevetsov » Wed Jan 13, 2021 1:13 am

bwgood77 wrote:
nevetsov wrote:Thank you for writing this so I didn't have to!

Pretty simple.

Last year:

Rubio, Book, Mikal, Oubre, Ayton = great
Rubio, Book, Mikal, CamJ, Ayton = great
Therefore
Rubio, Book, Mikal, PF, Ayton = great

Paul, Book, Mikal, PF, Ayton = stinks.
- Book playing like garbage
- Ayton playing like garbage

CP3 is a pound the rock, half court PG.
Rubio maximised the output of the young guys by pushing the tempo and moving the ball.

Something needs to change - either Paul learns how to push it, or Book and DA learn to play half court (which is not their strength).

I think we are fool's gold.


I wouldn't just sub "PF" in there with Rubio. When we started Oubre at 3 and Saric at 4 most of the season, we were not great. It is not until we put Mikal in as a starter with Oubre at the 4 when we started killing people with that lineup.


Clearly had Mikal at the 3 in each of the Rubio scenarios.
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Re: Game 11: Phoenix Suns (7-3) @ Washington Wizards (2-8) l Monday l 5:00pm l FSNAZ 

Post#479 » by bwgood77 » Wed Jan 13, 2021 1:17 am

nevetsov wrote:
bwgood77 wrote:
nevetsov wrote:Thank you for writing this so I didn't have to!

Pretty simple.

Last year:

Rubio, Book, Mikal, Oubre, Ayton = great
Rubio, Book, Mikal, CamJ, Ayton = great
Therefore
Rubio, Book, Mikal, PF, Ayton = great

Paul, Book, Mikal, PF, Ayton = stinks.
- Book playing like garbage
- Ayton playing like garbage

CP3 is a pound the rock, half court PG.
Rubio maximised the output of the young guys by pushing the tempo and moving the ball.

Something needs to change - either Paul learns how to push it, or Book and DA learn to play half court (which is not their strength).

I think we are fool's gold.


I wouldn't just sub "PF" in there with Rubio. When we started Oubre at 3 and Saric at 4 most of the season, we were not great. It is not until we put Mikal in as a starter with Oubre at the 4 when we started killing people with that lineup.

Oh, ok...but I just don't think you an stick any PF in there...traditional ones don't seem to work as well.
Clearly had Mikal at the 3 in each of the Rubio scenarios.
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Re: Game 11: Phoenix Suns (7-3) @ Washington Wizards (2-8) l Monday l 5:00pm l FSNAZ 

Post#480 » by Revived » Wed Jan 13, 2021 1:36 am

bwgood77 wrote:
Revived wrote:
grumpysaddle wrote:Imagine if we could swap Ayton for Sabonis? DROOOOOOOOOL

I’d rather swap him with Atlanta for Collins and Okongwu. We get slightly worse defensively but much better offensively and athletically. And I think Collins would improve defensively playing alongside elite defensive wings like Bridges and Crowder.

Imagine having a player this explosive in our starting 5 (he can do a lot more than just dunk btw and is much more skilled offensively than Ayton)



Imagine thinking Ayton sucks but also thinking you could trade him for Collins AND Okongwu.

Just because someone critiques his play and wants better effort out of him consistently doesn’t mean they think he sucks. I showered praises on him all season after he came back from his suspension because of how good he looked (pre bubble) both defensively and offensively.

He’s shown he doesn’t suck, he just doesn’t bring it every game. He probably goes off against Atlanta in the next game since he didn’t do much in the last 2 games.

But yeah perhaps adding Okongwu to it is too much.

Return to Phoenix Suns