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CP3 vs Rubio

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Re: CP3 vs Rubio 

Post#41 » by Saberestar » Fri Jan 29, 2021 10:59 pm

CP3 averages in his last five games:
18 points, 8.2 assists, 5 rebounds and 1.4 steals with .461 FG% (36/78).


Rubio averages in his last five games (three starts):
6 points, 6.8 assists, 3.6 rebounds and 1 steal with .233 FG% (7/30).
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Re: CP3 vs Rubio 

Post#42 » by itlnsunsfan » Fri Jan 29, 2021 11:25 pm

Saberestar wrote:CP3 averages in his last five games:
18 points, 8.2 assists, 5 rebounds and 1.4 steals with .461 FG% (36/78).


Rubio averages in his last five games (three starts):
6 points, 6.8 assists, 3.6 rebounds and 1 steal with .233 FG% (7/30).


Rubio's stats with the Twolves this year are irrelevant. They are using him differently than the Suns did, and it is a different team, with different roster talent. The comparison being drawn was Rubio's fit with the Suns last year vs Paul this year. Through Paul's first 15 games, his production was virtually identical to Rubio's, making the trade a negative in terms of value. Over the last 5 games, Paul has been better, and more of what we were expecting when we made the swap. However, it remains to be seen if the production declines again once Booker returns. Let's hope it does not.
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Re: CP3 vs Rubio 

Post#43 » by Revived » Sat Jan 30, 2021 6:12 am

itlnsunsfan wrote:
Saberestar wrote:CP3 averages in his last five games:
18 points, 8.2 assists, 5 rebounds and 1.4 steals with .461 FG% (36/78).


Rubio averages in his last five games (three starts):
6 points, 6.8 assists, 3.6 rebounds and 1 steal with .233 FG% (7/30).


Rubio's stats with the Twolves this year are irrelevant. They are using him differently than the Suns did, and it is a different team, with different roster talent. The comparison being drawn was Rubio's fit with the Suns last year vs Paul this year. Through Paul's first 15 games, his production was virtually identical to Rubio's, making the trade a negative in terms of value. Over the last 5 games, Paul has been better, and more of what we were expecting when we made the swap. However, it remains to be seen if the production declines again once Booker returns. Let's hope it does not.

I’ve tried explaining that to Saberestar at least like 12 times on many different occasions this season.

There’s no use, it’s obvious he’s just gonna keep bringing that up because he knows there is no case when comparing Rubio’s # with the Suns vs Paul’s # with the Suns. That should be the only thing that matters to Suns fans.

It makes as much sense to compare MJ’s 95 season #s to CP3’s this season as it does to compare Rubio on that TWolves team to what CP3’s doing here.

There are two main issues with CP3. One is that he doesn’t bother trying to score until the 4th QTR or if we’re down by 25 in the first 3 quarters before that. Does he not know that we traded for him because of the extra scoring he will bring throughout the entirety of a game? We’re not paying him $30M more per yr than Rubio to facilitate for the first 3 quarters.

Second problem is that he doesn’t push the pace at all. He wants to slow down and play a halfcourt offense every possession and that’s an outdated style in today’s NBA. The Suns rank among the bottom 3 teams in categories such as fastbreak pts, pts off turnovers, pace etc. You can’t expect to create easy offense when your in the halfcourt 90% of the time. He needs to run and push the tempo.

Even though he isn’t even half as good a scorer, Rubio always put pressure on the defense last season by being aggressive and looking to score whether it’s layups or mid range or 3s. He was also an excellent 3pt shooter in Monty’s system and alongside Booker which helped us. Rubio also LOVES to push the pace and he’s been doing that since his time in Spain.
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Re: CP3 vs Rubio 

Post#44 » by Saberestar » Sat Jan 30, 2021 9:20 am

Revived wrote:
itlnsunsfan wrote:
Saberestar wrote:CP3 averages in his last five games:
18 points, 8.2 assists, 5 rebounds and 1.4 steals with .461 FG% (36/78).


Rubio averages in his last five games (three starts):
6 points, 6.8 assists, 3.6 rebounds and 1 steal with .233 FG% (7/30).


Rubio's stats with the Twolves this year are irrelevant. They are using him differently than the Suns did, and it is a different team, with different roster talent. The comparison being drawn was Rubio's fit with the Suns last year vs Paul this year. Through Paul's first 15 games, his production was virtually identical to Rubio's, making the trade a negative in terms of value. Over the last 5 games, Paul has been better, and more of what we were expecting when we made the swap. However, it remains to be seen if the production declines again once Booker returns. Let's hope it does not.

I’ve tried explaining that to Saberestar at least like 12 times on many different occasions this season.

There’s no use, it’s obvious he’s just gonna keep bringing that up because he knows there is no case when comparing Rubio’s # with the Suns vs Paul’s # with the Suns. That should be the only thing that matters to Suns fans.

It makes as much sense to compare MJ’s 95 season #s to CP3’s this season as it does to compare Rubio on that TWolves team to what CP3’s doing here.

There are two main issues with CP3. One is that he doesn’t bother trying to score until the 4th QTR or if we’re down by 25 in the first 3 quarters before that. Does he not know that we traded for him because of the extra scoring he will bring throughout the entirety of a game? We’re not paying him $30M more per yr than Rubio to facilitate for the first 3 quarters.

Second problem is that he doesn’t push the pace at all. He wants to slow down and play a halfcourt offense every possession and that’s an outdated style in today’s NBA. The Suns rank among the bottom 3 teams in categories such as fastbreak pts, pts off turnovers, pace etc. You can’t expect to create easy offense when your in the halfcourt 90% of the time. He needs to run and push the tempo.

Even though he isn’t even half as good a scorer, Rubio always put pressure on the defense last season by being aggressive and looking to score whether it’s layups or mid range or 3s. He was also an excellent 3pt shooter in Monty’s system and alongside Booker which helped us. Rubio also LOVES to push the pace and he’s been doing that since his time in Spain.

I do not understand why we need to ignore how a player is doing in the current season. We live in the present.

If Rubio were doing a terrific job on the Wolves and he were in great shape I would consider this comparison more seriously, but that is not the case.

He has started some games on the Wolves but he is again on a backup role because he has not been playing well.

It is a similar to Oubre and Baynes... I do not miss them because they are showing on their current teams that James Jones did the right thing.

On the other hand CP3 is healthy and playing great lately. We will play with a higher pace with some more reps.
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Re: CP3 vs Rubio 

Post#45 » by Revived » Sat Jan 30, 2021 10:12 am

Saberestar wrote:
Revived wrote:
itlnsunsfan wrote:
Rubio's stats with the Twolves this year are irrelevant. They are using him differently than the Suns did, and it is a different team, with different roster talent. The comparison being drawn was Rubio's fit with the Suns last year vs Paul this year. Through Paul's first 15 games, his production was virtually identical to Rubio's, making the trade a negative in terms of value. Over the last 5 games, Paul has been better, and more of what we were expecting when we made the swap. However, it remains to be seen if the production declines again once Booker returns. Let's hope it does not.

I’ve tried explaining that to Saberestar at least like 12 times on many different occasions this season.

There’s no use, it’s obvious he’s just gonna keep bringing that up because he knows there is no case when comparing Rubio’s # with the Suns vs Paul’s # with the Suns. That should be the only thing that matters to Suns fans.

It makes as much sense to compare MJ’s 95 season #s to CP3’s this season as it does to compare Rubio on that TWolves team to what CP3’s doing here.

There are two main issues with CP3. One is that he doesn’t bother trying to score until the 4th QTR or if we’re down by 25 in the first 3 quarters before that. Does he not know that we traded for him because of the extra scoring he will bring throughout the entirety of a game? We’re not paying him $30M more per yr than Rubio to facilitate for the first 3 quarters.

Second problem is that he doesn’t push the pace at all. He wants to slow down and play a halfcourt offense every possession and that’s an outdated style in today’s NBA. The Suns rank among the bottom 3 teams in categories such as fastbreak pts, pts off turnovers, pace etc. You can’t expect to create easy offense when your in the halfcourt 90% of the time. He needs to run and push the tempo.

Even though he isn’t even half as good a scorer, Rubio always put pressure on the defense last season by being aggressive and looking to score whether it’s layups or mid range or 3s. He was also an excellent 3pt shooter in Monty’s system and alongside Booker which helped us. Rubio also LOVES to push the pace and he’s been doing that since his time in Spain.

I do not understand why we need to ignore how a player is doing in the current season. We live in the present.

If Rubio were doing a terrific job on the Wolves and he were in great shape I would consider this comparison more seriously, but that is not the case.

He has started some games on the Wolves but he is again on a backup role because he has not been playing well.

It is a similar to Oubre and Baynes... I do not miss them because they are showing on their current teams that James Jones did the right thing.

On the other hand CP3 is healthy and playing great lately. We will play with a higher pace with some more reps.

Because they are in two completely different situations. If you put CP3 in Minnesota with that mess there, the TWolves would be just as bad or worse. So that’s why the comparison makes no sense. Rubio played for just 5 months ago, it’s not like he had some injury or randomly lost all his skills. We know what he’s capable of in our system. And we now know what CP3 is capable of here as well. If a comparison must be made, that’s where it should be done.

The fit matters imo. Rubio was the better fit for this team (as he showed just 6 months ago) than Paul is. Nobody here besides maybe 1 or 2 people care about Rubio’s fit on the TWolves.

You can’t just plug any good player into any team and expect them to be good because of it. The reason for this is because of the importance of fit. Best example of this is Isaiah Thomas. He was very good in Sacramento yet we brought him here and was not very good. Yet we trade him to Boston and he goes into become an All Star and MVP caliber player there.

The very few exceptions to this are the great players who are also athletic freaks like LeBron, Durant, Giannis, Jordan etc.

Baynes and Oubre don’t look the same after their injuries. Baynes had a hip issue iirc and never looked quite the same after and Oubre obviously had the meniscus which I don’t think he still has completely recovered from. Baynes is old and probably on one of his last years but Oubre will return to playing well at some point, this season is basically still a rehab for him. Some players return pretty quickly from meniscus and there is no difference and for some there are.

You see how TWolves post in this Suns forum from time to time about how Rubio is being used completely wrong in Minnesota and they wish they can save him by taking him out of that mess.

I think Dallas should make a play for him. I think asking Luka to do playmaking and scoring for a full game is just way too much and they can use an elite secondary ball handler/playmaker. Just don’t know if they have the salaries to trade for him.
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Re: CP3 vs Rubio 

Post#46 » by Saberestar » Sat Jan 30, 2021 1:03 pm

Revived wrote:
Saberestar wrote:I do not understand why we need to ignore how a player is doing in the current season. We live in the present.

If Rubio were doing a terrific job on the Wolves and he were in great shape I would consider this comparison more seriously, but that is not the case.

He has started some games on the Wolves but he is again on a backup role because he has not been playing well.

It is a similar to Oubre and Baynes... I do not miss them because they are showing on their current teams that James Jones did the right thing.

On the other hand CP3 is healthy and playing great lately. We will play with a higher pace with some more reps.

Because they are in two completely different situations. If you put CP3 in Minnesota with that mess there, the TWolves would be just as bad or worse. So that’s why the comparison makes no sense. Rubio played for just 5 months ago, it’s not like he had some injury or randomly lost all his skills. We know what he’s capable of in our system. And we now know what CP3 is capable of here as well. If a comparison must be made, that’s where it should be done.

The fit matters imo. Rubio was the better fit for this team (as he showed just 6 months ago) than Paul is. Nobody here besides maybe 1 or 2 people care about Rubio’s fit on the TWolves.

You can’t just plug any good player into any team and expect them to be good because of it. The reason for this is because of the importance of fit. Best example of this is Isaiah Thomas. He was very good in Sacramento yet we brought him here and was not very good. Yet we trade him to Boston and he goes into become an All Star and MVP caliber player there.

The very few exceptions to this are the great players who are also athletic freaks like LeBron, Durant, Giannis, Jordan etc.

Baynes and Oubre don’t look the same after their injuries. Baynes had a hip issue iirc and never looked quite the same after and Oubre obviously had the meniscus which I don’t think he still has completely recovered from. Baynes is old and probably on one of his last years but Oubre will return to playing well at some point, this season is basically still a rehab for him. Some players return pretty quickly from meniscus and there is no difference and for some there are.

You see how TWolves post in this Suns forum from time to time about how Rubio is being used completely wrong in Minnesota and they wish they can save him by taking him out of that mess.

I think Dallas should make a play for him. I think asking Luka to do playmaking and scoring for a full game is just way too much and they can use an elite secondary ball handler/playmaker. Just don’t know if they have the salaries to trade for him.

1. Isaiah Thomas played well for the Suns. He averaged 15.2 points and 3.7 assists shooting over 39% from three in just 26 mpg. The problem were egos and wanting (him and Dragic) more the ball and more shots, but he never played as bad as Rubio is playing for the Wolves.

Thomas was much younger and getting into his prime then, Rubio is 30 so I don't expect him to get better in the next couple of seasons. Thomas was good for us but he was amazing for the Celtics. You regret trading a player in those cases.

2. Personally I think that you put now CP3 on the Wolves and they would be considerably better. Not a playoff team, but competing on more games for sure. They have deal with injuries and they have some young players that are gonna make mistakes but a player like CP3 would give them pause and they would select better shots on their half court offense.

3. I agree with you about the Mavs being a good trade partner with the Wolves. They could work something around Dwight Powell for Rubio.
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Re: CP3 vs Rubio 

Post#47 » by sunsbg » Sat Jan 30, 2021 2:48 pm

Rubio to the Mavs is one of the more illogical trades being thrown around. Mavs probably need a better backup PG to run the offense when Doncic rests, that's 10 mins though. Don't see how Rubio fits next to him being that he's absolutely in love with having the ball in his hands all the time. There were concerns even with Booker who despite the Point-Book narrative is still a SG, Luka is PG and shoots worse from 3 than DB. Though I don't like such one man oriented offense, it seems to work fine for the Mavs with their fans bringing up the fact it was the best ranked offense historically, so doubt their coaching staff wants to take the ball off his hands.

This team was carried by the bench in some games in the bubble, same as games during this season. If Saric and Payne were available maybe those OT losses are wins now. Just hard to say last years roster would do better this season. If Rubio keeps his current play maybe we can sign him in a year for cheaper, who knows. In the meantime there is more evidence how Booker and Ayton fit with a CP3 type PG.
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Re: CP3 vs Rubio 

Post#48 » by RiRuHoops » Sat Jan 30, 2021 8:24 pm

What do you guys think of this trade in the offseason?

http://www.espn.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=yxl94ts9
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Re: CP3 vs Rubio 

Post#49 » by bwgood77 » Sat Jan 30, 2021 10:56 pm

Rubio is not better than Paul. These arguments are absurd. He played well with the Suns over an entire season and CP3 has identical stats as he learns the team without benefit of a training camp. He also helps us in crunch time. I like that he tries to get others involved in the first half and get everyone going and getting 12-14 assists in the first half, and then if need be, take over down the stretch, being the most clutch guy in the league last year. I really like Rubio, but our team will be better with Paul barring an injury or serious decline from where he is now (which I fear for next year, but not this year).
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Re: CP3 vs Rubio 

Post#50 » by itlnsunsfan » Sat Jan 30, 2021 11:17 pm

bwgood77 wrote:Rubio is not better than Paul. These arguments are absurd. He played well with the Suns over an entire season and CP3 has identical stats as he learns the team without benefit of a training camp. He also helps us in crunch time. I like that he tries to get others involved in the first half and get everyone going and getting 12-14 assists in the first half, and then if need be, take over down the stretch, being the most clutch guy in the league last year. I really like Rubio, but our team will be better with Paul barring an injury or serious decline from where he is now (which I fear for next year, but not this year).


Do you feel his slower paced style of play is a good fit for this team?
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Re: CP3 vs Rubio 

Post#51 » by bwgood77 » Sun Jan 31, 2021 12:18 am

itlnsunsfan wrote:
bwgood77 wrote:Rubio is not better than Paul. These arguments are absurd. He played well with the Suns over an entire season and CP3 has identical stats as he learns the team without benefit of a training camp. He also helps us in crunch time. I like that he tries to get others involved in the first half and get everyone going and getting 12-14 assists in the first half, and then if need be, take over down the stretch, being the most clutch guy in the league last year. I really like Rubio, but our team will be better with Paul barring an injury or serious decline from where he is now (which I fear for next year, but not this year).


Do you feel his slower paced style of play is a good fit for this team?


Not ideally all the time, but it's show it can work. Though some players like Ayton especially would thrive more with a faster pace. That's more on Monty though. It's not like Paul can't run it.
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Re: CP3 vs Rubio 

Post#52 » by SunsRback4Good » Sun Jan 31, 2021 12:57 am

We may have a slow paced team in the regular season but the pace that Paul brings will be crucial in the playoffs.
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Re: CP3 vs Rubio 

Post#53 » by itlnsunsfan » Sun Jan 31, 2021 1:46 am

bwgood77 wrote:
itlnsunsfan wrote:
bwgood77 wrote:Rubio is not better than Paul. These arguments are absurd. He played well with the Suns over an entire season and CP3 has identical stats as he learns the team without benefit of a training camp. He also helps us in crunch time. I like that he tries to get others involved in the first half and get everyone going and getting 12-14 assists in the first half, and then if need be, take over down the stretch, being the most clutch guy in the league last year. I really like Rubio, but our team will be better with Paul barring an injury or serious decline from where he is now (which I fear for next year, but not this year).


Do you feel his slower paced style of play is a good fit for this team?


Not ideally all the time, but it's show it can work. Though some players like Ayton especially would thrive more with a faster pace. That's more on Monty though. It's not like Paul can't run it.


I feel Paul does not want to run it, and it seems like we've gotten away from Monty's .5 second system, as often times I see Paul walk it up and pound the air out of the ball. Do you think this is a conscious decision by Monty and Paul, or Monty is deferring to Paul's wishes and needs to take back more control?
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Re: CP3 vs Rubio 

Post#54 » by bwgood77 » Sun Jan 31, 2021 5:24 am

itlnsunsfan wrote:
bwgood77 wrote:
itlnsunsfan wrote:
Do you feel his slower paced style of play is a good fit for this team?


Not ideally all the time, but it's show it can work. Though some players like Ayton especially would thrive more with a faster pace. That's more on Monty though. It's not like Paul can't run it.


I feel Paul does not want to run it, and it seems like we've gotten away from Monty's .5 second system, as often times I see Paul walk it up and pound the air out of the ball. Do you think this is a conscious decision by Monty and Paul, or Monty is deferring to Paul's wishes and needs to take back more control?


Monty has said he wants to push the pace more. I think it's the case of Paul being more stuck in his habits. Hopefully they start to run some more..not sure I expect it though.
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Re: CP3 vs Rubio 

Post#55 » by JohnWall2 » Sun Jan 31, 2021 6:11 am

CP3 v Rubio lol

Next it will be Dragon Bender v Charles Barkley
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Re: CP3 vs Rubio 

Post#56 » by sunsbg » Sun Jan 31, 2021 11:44 am

The Jazz are winning by running relatively slow offense, but they move the ball very well. The rosters look somewhat similar, so I feel we should be able to win playing slow as well.
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Re: CP3 vs Rubio 

Post#57 » by Adrao » Sun Jan 31, 2021 1:29 pm

My conclusion, if CP3 is our star player like during the last games without Booker he is better for the team than Rubio.
If Booker is our main player I think Rubio fits better.

So, CP3 and Booker don't fit well.
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Re: CP3 vs Rubio 

Post#58 » by bwgood77 » Sun Jan 31, 2021 11:13 pm

Adrao wrote:My conclusion, if CP3 is our star player like during the last games without Booker he is better for the team than Rubio.
If Booker is our main player I think Rubio fits better.

So, CP3 and Booker don't fit well.


However, staggering the whole game gives us an edge for the whole game. Rubio without Booker, not that great and vice versa. Look at our record pre-better bubble bench...even with both starting...26-39.

Even with Booker/Paul starting we are 10-8 and they are still finding their way, but staggering they are much better without each other giving us a much more balanced team when one is in, with a star always out there.
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Re: CP3 vs Rubio 

Post#59 » by JohnWall2 » Mon Feb 1, 2021 1:48 am

bwgood77 wrote:
Adrao wrote:My conclusion, if CP3 is our star player like during the last games without Booker he is better for the team than Rubio.
If Booker is our main player I think Rubio fits better.

So, CP3 and Booker don't fit well.


However, staggering the whole game gives us an edge for the whole game. Rubio without Booker, not that great and vice versa. Look at our record pre-better bubble bench...even with both starting...26-39.

Even with Booker/Paul starting we are 10-8 and they are still finding their way, but staggering they are much better without each other giving us a much more balanced team when one is in, with a star always out there.
Yeah that staggering is certainly key, look how well it worked for Harden and CP3 a few years ago as well. There should never be situation really aside from garbage time when they are both healthy that one of them isn't on the floor imo.
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Re: CP3 vs Rubio 

Post#60 » by bwoolf2 » Tue Feb 2, 2021 2:26 am

This isn't a competition it's not close, Rubio is a nice player he isn't on CP3s level

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