2021 CP3 or 2010 Nash?

[Saberestar]

Nash from 2009/10 or CP3 from 2020/21?
Who do you think was better when comparing them at 35 years old?

Obviously CP3 season has not concluded so this comparison is flawed, but I think that we have enough sample size to do it for fun.

Both All Stars.
Not an easy task that late on their careers.

Great winning records.
09/10 Suns were 23W-12L on their first 35 games.
The current Suns team are 24W-11L.

Similar stats.
Nash averaged 16.5 points, 11 assists, 3.3 boards, 0.5 steals and 3.6 TOs. Shooting 42.6 from three.

CP3 averages 16.0 points, 8.8 assists, 4.7 boards, 1.2 steals and 2.4 TOs. Shooting 39.1 from three.

Durability
Nash played 81 games that season. 32.8 mpg.
Paul has played 34 out of 35 games so far. 31.8 mpg.

Defense
Paul is the better defender, but I want to say that Nash was an underrated defender. He was one of the best taking charges and he was an smart team defender. He had physical limitations to be considered a positive defender, but I do not think that he was a big liability out there.

Paul is one of the best defenders at his position. He knows how to defend bigger players so he can switch in screens effectively and his awareness as a team defender is outstanding.

Pace
I do not have the stats, but IIRC Nash's team played a higher pace offense and were a bit more fun to watch.


All in all personally I prefer Nash because he is my favorite basketball player and what he did that season was remarkable but CP3 is so great that I think it is a legitimate question.

[Qwigglez]

Right now, a bit of a toss up for me. 6 months from now when the Suns win their very first championship it's definitely Chris Paul. Will have to dive deeper into this when I'm not at work.

[Frank Lee]

Heads I win, tails you lose

[TouchPassDario]

2009-10 Suns played at 95.3 possessions per48
2020-21 Suns play at 97.1 possessions per48

[TouchPassDario]

I vote for Paul, because I think he is more influential on the overall team than Nash. The Nash Suns team was 23rd in d-rating.

Most of the Suns rotation guys are the same as last year (when they were 17th in DRTG), and Rubio (the guy replaced by Paul) was no slouch on that end. Paul isn’t just good at defense; he is really good at getting others to buy in to it. A team that’s 23rd in DRTG had zero chance to win a Finals. A team that’s 3rd? We got a shot.

[Saberestar]

2009-10 Suns played at 95.3 possessions per48
2020-21 Suns play at 97.1 possessions per48

Yeah, but the difference I think is that on those years 95.3 possessions per48 was one of the higher pace offense.

[TouchPassDario]

That’s correct. The Suns’ relative pace was faster in 2010.

[SUN]

Depends on what happens down the stretch. Nash was even more of a defensive liability by that point, but at least he was with the team. CP3 is the king of the inconvenient hamstring.

[ryanball]

Nash. His court vision and superior shooting outweigh any problems on the defensive side.

If you plug 35yo Nash into this team, he'd easily be allowed to take twice as many 3s as he did in 2010 and hit them at a 42+% rate.

Its actually crazy to realize Nash never even averaged 5 three point attempts per game while guys now who are substantially worse shooters just casually toss up so many more.

[bwgood77]

Nash. His court vision and superior shooting outweigh any problems on the defensive side.

If you plug 35yo Nash into this team, he'd easily be allowed to take twice as many 3s as he did in 2010 and hit them at a 42+% rate.

Its actually crazy to realize Nash never even averaged 5 three point attempts per game while guys now who are substantially worse shooters just casually toss up so many more.

It is interesting to think about whether he would have had a Curry-like impact if he shot as many 3s. I think the biggest problem if he was on this team is him and Booker as backcourt defenders. If it was a D'Antoni-Gentry type offense, I doubt they would want nearly as many isos, too, though Booker would thrive on offense with more catch and shoots and that type of thing.

It's a tough one.

[TouchPassDario]

I definitely think Nash would take a lot more pull-up 3s, and while I doubt he would maintain the same efficiency on increased volume, I do think it would have increased the team’s ORTG if were encouraged to take more shots.

[lilfishi22]

What's interesting is despite being the 29th ranked team in pace this season, it's still faster than any of the SSOL teams who were ranked #1 in pace during that time. Amazing how much this pace and space era has changed the NBA.

I think at 35, CP3 is probably playing at the higher level and being the more well rounded player, so on face value he should take this poll.

However, if we were to conclude that Nash would be playing a more modern style of basketball that most PG's play nowadays in terms of pace, shooting and ball movement, I think Nash probably averages even more assists, more points and we would probably be a top 10 team in pace. Just given Nash's style, he's just a lot more suited to today's NBA than CP3's more olds school half court style. There's also far fewer straight up grinding teams like the Spurs or Pistons which always put a ton of strain on Nash's body and style. Suns of Nash's days played their best against teams who also wanted to outrun and out-shoot us and that's pretty much today's NBA. I think the defensive personnel we have on this team would cover Nash's defensive issues more so than the 2009-2010 Suns team whose best defender was 37yo Grant Hill.

[nevetsov]

I've always wondered how those pace metrics were measured. If they are indeed measured by possessions /48, wouldn't it also be reliant on the amount of time the other team has possession for?

I mean, back in the SSOL era, other teams were (relatively) playing super slow. So if they were using say 18 seconds of the shot clock, and we were routinely using 9 seconds, wouldn't that mean we'd only have team possession for 1/3 of the game? So our pace figures would have been actually have been higher had we had the ball (and therefore possession) more of the time?

Fast forward to 2021, where all teams have elevated their pace - yes, our pace rating has gone up, but we're at the bottom of the league relatively speaking. To me this implies:
1) Ball movement (possession count) across all teams has improved, in part due to the prioritization of the three ball swing and kick out
2) all teams are taking quick shots, meaning we are going to have more actual game time in possession as a team. Say if our total game possession (48 minute) time had gotten closer to 50%, up from 33%, were going to have more possessions per 48 purely by the increase in other teams pace, even if we are in fact slower.

Probably didn't explain that very well.

[bwgood77]

I've always wondered how those pace metrics were measured. If they are indeed measured by possessions /48, wouldn't it also be reliant on the amount of time the other team has possession for?

I mean, back in the SSOL era, other teams were (relatively) playing super slow. So if they were using say 18 seconds of the shot clock, and we were routinely using 9 seconds, wouldn't that mean we'd only have team possession for 1/3 of the game? So our pace figures would have been actually have been higher had we had the ball (and therefore possession) more of the time?

Fast forward to 2021, where all teams have elevated their pace - yes, our pace rating has gone up, but we're at the bottom of the league relatively speaking. To me this implies:
1) Ball movement (possession count) across all teams has improved, in part due to the prioritization of the three ball swing and kick out
2) all teams are taking quick shots, meaning we are going to have more actual game time in possession as a team. Say if our total game possession (48 minute) time had gotten closer to 50%, up from 33%, were going to have more possessions per 48 purely by the increase in other teams pace, even if we are in fact slower.

Probably didn't explain that very well.

I was thinking the same thing...or at least I was thinking that the Suns pace is probably slower with this team than the SSOL teams, but that due to every other team's pace (or almost all teams' paces) being so much faster, that the pace our games our played at our faster overall, despite our pace being slower on this team while on offense than while those teams were on offense. I mean, it's clearly obvious that a team designed to get a shot off within 7 seconds vs a team that uses nearly the whole shot clock every time, will be at a faster pace on offense.

Another thing that probably speeds up all paces is only have 14 seconds on offensive rebounds as opposed to a full 24, prior to a couple years ago.

[nevetsov]

When I think of pace, I think of how long a team takes to get a shot off - so basically average shot clock usage.

The metric measures ball movement, which I guess is a way of defining pace - it's just not the way I think most would ordinarily think of.

[starbosa10]

Nash's game is perfect for today's NBA. Cp3 has been amazing this year though

[Kings4win]

Can't really lose with this one. 2 excellent players for you guys at the pg position

[DirtyDez]

I’ll go with CP3 he was the more complete player. Nash was more fun to watch.

[cberry78]

Can I just choose my starting backcourt as CP3 at the 1 and Nash at the 2?

[Biff]

I've always wondered how those pace metrics were measured. If they are indeed measured by possessions /48, wouldn't it also be reliant on the amount of time the other team has possession for?

I mean, back in the SSOL era, other teams were (relatively) playing super slow. So if they were using say 18 seconds of the shot clock, and we were routinely using 9 seconds, wouldn't that mean we'd only have team possession for 1/3 of the game? So our pace figures would have been actually have been higher had we had the ball (and therefore possession) more of the time?

Fast forward to 2021, where all teams have elevated their pace - yes, our pace rating has gone up, but we're at the bottom of the league relatively speaking. To me this implies:
1) Ball movement (possession count) across all teams has improved, in part due to the prioritization of the three ball swing and kick out
2) all teams are taking quick shots, meaning we are going to have more actual game time in possession as a team. Say if our total game possession (48 minute) time had gotten closer to 50%, up from 33%, were going to have more possessions per 48 purely by the increase in other teams pace, even if we are in fact slower.

Probably didn't explain that very well.

I was thinking the same thing...or at least I was thinking that the Suns pace is probably slower with this team than the SSOL teams, but that due to every other team's pace (or almost all teams' paces) being so much faster, that the pace our games our played at our faster overall, despite our pace being slower on this team while on offense than while those teams were on offense. I mean, it's clearly obvious that a team designed to get a shot off within 7 seconds vs a team that uses nearly the whole shot clock every time, will be at a faster pace on offense.

Another thing that probably speeds up all paces is only have 14 seconds on offensive rebounds as opposed to a full 24, prior to a couple years ago.

Yeah, the shot clock was definitely a change that sped up the game. Median offensive rebounds per game is around 10, so that's 20 per game for both teams. 200 fewer seconds or about 8 possessions if the teams were using up the entire clock. My guess is it added 3-4 possessions a game.