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Is Booker already the 3rd best player in the history of the Suns?

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Is Book the 3rd best player in the history of the Suns?

Poll ended at Thu Apr 22, 2021 9:29 am

Yes, he is there behind Nash and Barkley.
5
14%
No, but he will be pretty soon.
12
33%
No, maybe top 10, but may be by the end of his career.
17
47%
No, and I don't see it happening.
2
6%
 
Total votes: 36

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Is Booker already the 3rd best player in the history of the Suns? 

Post#1 » by Saberestar » Mon Apr 12, 2021 9:29 am

I was thinking about it and I think he deserves to be already in the conversation.

Is Booker already the best player in the franchise's history after Nash and Barkley?

Those two players are obviously over him because of their MVP seasons with the Suns, but other than them I do not see too many players or even just one as talented and impressive as Booker has been so far in his career on the Suns.

I can not talk about players before the 90s because I have seen just a few footage about them, so I do not know if someone from that era ( Hawkins, Westphal, Walter Davis...) could be considered better than Book has been in the last few years on the Suns and now, but for my understanding none of them were a Top 10 player in the NBA on their years in the league, so I would give Book an small advantage over them. Anyway I can be wrong, I know.

Regarding Kevin Johnson, Marion and Amare... I think that is an interesting conversation and for me all three are in the same tier as a basketball players. All were fantastic and were huge for the franchise, but I think Book is already there in the same tier as them because he was the only bright spot that we had on the Suns for the worst period in the franchise's history.

Book gave us hope during these last terrible years and now we are great again with him as our cornerstone. He could have asked for a trade, but no, he wanted to be a Sun and make this franchise great again. He did it and now we go to the playoffs (very possible) as a Top 4 team.

Book looks tailor-made to fight in the playoffs. His desire, intensity and relentless scorer mentality will be huge for us, I can not wait to watch him in action on a playoff series. It is gonna be FUN.
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Re: Is Booker already the 3rd best player in the history of the Suns? 

Post#2 » by Bogyo » Mon Apr 12, 2021 10:38 am

76 finals team had to have some ballers too... Westy for example... but Book could be 3rd when all said and done - especially if he has another contract with us and fills that out too. The numbers will be on his side by then for sure - I hope the winning things too.
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Re: Is Booker already the 3rd best player in the history of the Suns? 

Post#3 » by Calvin Klein » Mon Apr 12, 2021 11:58 am

KJ was amazing for a few years prior to injuries and he reached 2 west finals and 1 final, plus many other second round exits.
Book is on his way I think, but his lack of playoffs hurt him at this moment. If he stays with the Suns for many years, he should be up there.
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Re: Is Booker already the 3rd best player in the history of the Suns? 

Post#4 » by bwgood77 » Mon Apr 12, 2021 4:38 pm

No, Marion leads the Suns in so many categories. He was an all around better player. KJ's peak was higher and he was basically leading the team very deep into the playoffs as the leader in his 2nd-5th years...Barkley showed up in his 6th and was on the team for a few years...but KJ was a very high level still his 6th-10th years...but injuries took their toll. But he averaged like around 20/10 that whole time...a little over that his 2nd-4th at around 58%-60% TS%.

After that his range was bigger but as high as 63%. And this was before the 3 ball was being used much, especially in relation to today, and the avg TS% was under 54% (it's over 57% today). Anyway, KJ was a faster paced, more explosive CP3 with more ppg and apg...he wasn't as much of a coach but also knew when to get others involved and when to take over. He could absolutely take over a game Booker style and score 45 when he wanted. Amare was better in his peak around the same age but was also a 6x all star (Marion and KJ 3x all star) KJ was also on 5 all NBA teams.

There are so many guys that long time fans might argue from Davis to Westphal. Davis was a 6x all star, Westphal a 5x all star (4 with Suns)

I think there is an argument Majerle was an all around better player. Or even Hornacek..better shooter and passer. These guys were all on better teams though so they didn't stand out as much.

Majerle made all star teams 3x with the Suns...and we are talking about getting in with selections, not replacements. Hornacek once by selections.

Connie Hawkins was a 4x all star. Van Arsdale a 3x all star. Alvan Adams an all star.

I think Booker is in the top 10. Seems like based on careers and accomplishments....all star, all nba, playoffs, leading team, etc, he would be well below a lot of these guys. Definitely behind KJ, Davis, Amare, Marion Westphal, Hawkins, Van Arsdale...in that order.

You could maybe put him ahead of Majerle...but it's a hard argument...Majerle was an all around great player on both sides and a 3x all star...so kind of a hard argument. Hornacek and Adams maybe since longevity with team was not as long even though they were probably equally as good (Adams better early but he declined after rookie year for whatever reason).

So he's probably around #10 with the guys in that last paragraph with the other 9 ahead.

I think many judge players strictly on how much they score.

And as a scorer, Booker is probably up there in the top 5...and you could argue as a pure scorer, maybe the best, even though Barkley averaged more at times..as did probably Amare. But when you consider complete games, it sinks Booker a lot.

Edit: Forgot about Chambers...he was a great scorer too in the 88-92 era...he's in that last group too.

I do think Book has a chance by the end of his career to get up to 3rd or 4th though. I don't know that his peak will be KJs, considering KJ was by far the best player who led a team to two consecutive WCF, knocking out Magic's defending champion Lakers and other massive star laden teams...and what's crazy is he did it in his 2nd and 3rd years.

I think KJ made it to the playoffs in every year he played except the first one which he didn't play much on the Cavs and only played a third of the year for the Suns. That year we traded all star Nance for KJ we won 28 games.

The next year as a 2nd year player KJ, as the best player on the team led us to 55 wins and the WCF....third year, again, WCF (probably make it to finals if not injured). These years were every bit as exciting as the SSOL Suns....even before Barkley..they were annual contenders, making songs on the radio, the Purple Palace rocking, etc.


By the way, I changed the wording on the last two poll options....choices were:

"No, and I am not sure he ever gets there" and "No way, not even close". Voting for either didn't seem completely right....the last one seems worse....I don't know that I feel he is close yet, but I think he easily could get there....but the last one makes it seem like you definitely don't think he will get there.

I don't think he is that close yet, unless you are purely talking about scoring..but I do think he could definitely get there...so I kind of revised the last two options so I hope you don't mind.

Another edit: Reading post below...forgot about Kidd. He's in there somewhere too....doesn't feel like he played with us for long though and we never went that far so didn't think of him.
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Re: Is Booker already the 3rd best player in the history of the Suns? 

Post#5 » by NapoleonII » Mon Apr 12, 2021 6:14 pm

Close, but with no playoffs to show (not really his fault) this conversation cannot be had right now.

The top five (modernly?) are pretty much indisputable:

Nash/Sir Charles/Kidd/Marion/Amare

Booker, right now, has a higher peak than Marion and Kidd (as his tenure as a Sun).

Amare, while never an MVP, put up some reasons of 26 ppg/9 rpg with good efficiency and destroyed many, many teams in the playoffs.

Nash's offensive impact is reachable for Booker, IMO. He put up 70 points in the NBA while most are starting their 2nd or 3rd year in college or working low-skill jobs. He won't do it in the same way and will always struggle with efficiency, I think, but that comes with the territory of his shot selection. I still think Booker's future is a hybrid of James Harden and like 2009 Kobe.

Better than Sir Charles, at his peak? I don't know. Probably not.
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Re: Is Booker already the 3rd best player in the history of the Suns? 

Post#6 » by bigfoot » Tue Apr 13, 2021 3:19 am

No, but may be by the end of his career. Strictly off career win share he has a long way to go. He won't break into the top 10 for three more years. Players like Alvin Adams, Amare, Marion, Nash, Barkley, KJ, Nance, Davis, Majerle, Westy are all long-time Suns contributors that were all-stars and contributed to many deep playoff runs.
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Re: Is Booker already the 3rd best player in the history of the Suns? 

Post#7 » by lilfishi22 » Tue Apr 13, 2021 4:23 am

I think there's like a handful of guys who would have to be considered in front of him and that's even before taking into account Suns royalty like Nash and Barkley.

Book firstly needs to play in the post-season and then he needs some playoff success. When that happens, he'll be up there. But he's not even 25 yet and this is his first winning season so I wouldn't be too worried about his legacy.
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Re: Is Booker already the 3rd best player in the history of the Suns? 

Post#8 » by bwgood77 » Tue Apr 13, 2021 4:38 am

bigfoot wrote:No, but may be by the end of his career. Strictly off career win share he has a long way to go. He won't break into the top 10 for three more years. Players like Alvin Adams, Amare, Marion, Nash, Barkley, KJ, Nance, Davis, Majerle, Westy are all long-time Suns contributors that were all-stars and contributed to many deep playoff runs.


Funny I was just looking at some Suns #s and briefly went to the franchise index on b-ref which shows pictures of the top 12 by WS...and to some extent, you have to consider them the top Suns based on their cumulative contributions to the teams. Now it can be argued that Book is better than a few of them, but it mainly comes down strictly to scoring.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/PHO/
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Re: Is Booker already the 3rd best player in the history of the Suns? 

Post#9 » by Saberestar » Tue Apr 13, 2021 9:12 am

bigfoot wrote:No, but may be by the end of his career. Strictly off career win share he has a long way to go. He won't break into the top 10 for three more years. Players like Alvin Adams, Amare, Marion, Nash, Barkley, KJ, Nance, Davis, Majerle, Westy are all long-time Suns contributors that were all-stars and contributed to many deep playoff runs.

Well, some of those players like Nance and Majerle were ELITE role players, but at the end of the day role players for most of their careers. You can built an efficient offense around Book as your primary offensive player.

I could not see Nance, he probably was more than an elite role player, but Majerle for sure could not create for himself or for his teammates consistently, not even in his prime. For a very good two-way player he was limited offensively.

I can not talk too much about Adams, but from what I have seen he was a solid starting C but not much more than that during his career (except for his impressive rookie season).

All those players played with better coaches and teammates than Book, he only had a solid team around him last season and on this one.

But I get what you are saying and I somewhat agree, he needs to win in the playoffs to be considered that great as a player.
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Re: Is Booker already the 3rd best player in the history of the Suns? 

Post#10 » by bwgood77 » Tue Apr 13, 2021 5:26 pm

Saberestar wrote:
bigfoot wrote:No, but may be by the end of his career. Strictly off career win share he has a long way to go. He won't break into the top 10 for three more years. Players like Alvin Adams, Amare, Marion, Nash, Barkley, KJ, Nance, Davis, Majerle, Westy are all long-time Suns contributors that were all-stars and contributed to many deep playoff runs.

Well, some of those players like Nance and Majerle were ELITE role players, but at the end of the day role players for most of their careers. You can built an efficient offense around Book as your primary offensive player.

I could not see Nance, he probably was more than an elite role player, but Majerle for sure could not create for himself or for his teammates consistently, not even in his prime. For a very good two-way player he was limited offensively.

I can not talk too much about Adams, but from what I have seen he was a solid starting C but not much more than that during his career (except for his impressive rookie season).

All those players played with better coaches and teammates than Book, he only had a solid team around him last season and on this one.

But I get what you are saying and I somewhat agree, he needs to win in the playoffs to be considered that great as a player.


Adams was a great passing C, and great all around player. He averaged over 4 apg in his 13 year career and he was also a solid defender..he averaged 1.3 spg too. He was maybe like a much better passing, athletic, defensive Saric.

I take it your original question is basically mostly regarding scoring?
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Re: Is Booker already the 3rd best player in the history of the Suns? 

Post#11 » by Saberestar » Tue Apr 13, 2021 6:40 pm

bwgood77 wrote:
Saberestar wrote:
bigfoot wrote:No, but may be by the end of his career. Strictly off career win share he has a long way to go. He won't break into the top 10 for three more years. Players like Alvin Adams, Amare, Marion, Nash, Barkley, KJ, Nance, Davis, Majerle, Westy are all long-time Suns contributors that were all-stars and contributed to many deep playoff runs.

Well, some of those players like Nance and Majerle were ELITE role players, but at the end of the day role players for most of their careers. You can built an efficient offense around Book as your primary offensive player.

I could not see Nance, he probably was more than an elite role player, but Majerle for sure could not create for himself or for his teammates consistently, not even in his prime. For a very good two-way player he was limited offensively.

I can not talk too much about Adams, but from what I have seen he was a solid starting C but not much more than that during his career (except for his impressive rookie season).

All those players played with better coaches and teammates than Book, he only had a solid team around him last season and on this one.

But I get what you are saying and I somewhat agree, he needs to win in the playoffs to be considered that great as a player.


Adams was a great passing C, and great all around player. He averaged over 4 apg in his 13 year career and he was also a solid defender..he averaged 1.3 spg too. He was maybe like a much better passing, athletic, defensive Saric.

I take it your original question is basically mostly regarding scoring?

No, it is more than scoring.
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Re: Is Booker already the 3rd best player in the history of the Suns? 

Post#12 » by Frank Lee » Wed Apr 14, 2021 2:55 am

Good to see some kudos for Alvin Adams.... That group, late 70s- early 80s would have flourished in today’s game and Y’all really would have loved watching Walter Davis. I don’t know if there ever was a more joyous player on the court. The dude was just so fluid. Book is a stat stuffer for sure, but there are some ballers in front of him in that long line.

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Re: Is Booker already the 3rd best player in the history of the Suns? 

Post#13 » by RunDogGun » Thu Apr 15, 2021 4:48 pm

This would be a great topic for GMAT. I am sure KJ would top his list.
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Re: Is Booker already the 3rd best player in the history of the Suns? 

Post#14 » by Doctor MJ » Thu Apr 15, 2021 8:41 pm

So clearly, the OP is just asking about Peak, because Booker's career is negligible to this point.

Here's the thing:

Booker's never been a serious candidate for being considered to be a Top 10 player in the league.

Here are a list of Suns who have been on that level while playing for the franchise:

Connie Hawkins
Paul Westphal
Walter Davis
Kevin Johnson
Charles Barkley
Jason Kidd
Shawn Marion
Amar'e Stoudemire
Steve Nash

So, all of them, plus an argument for Larry Nance, Goran Dragic, and Chris Paul.

So no, I don't see Booker as a candidate like this yet.
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Re: Is Booker already the 3rd best player in the history of the Suns? 

Post#15 » by DirtyDez » Thu Apr 15, 2021 9:09 pm

Not even close. Maybe if the Suns accomplish something of significance with him as the franchise player but there’s a long way to go,
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Re: Is Booker already the 3rd best player in the history of the Suns? 

Post#16 » by Seattlesun » Fri Apr 16, 2021 6:58 am

DirtyDez wrote:Not even close. Maybe if the Suns accomplish something of significance with him as the franchise player but there’s a long way to go,


This. I love Devin and am 100% behind the man. But he’s got a lot of great memories to give us before I put him on par with the 10 greatest Suns.
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Re: Is Booker already the 3rd best player in the history of the Suns? 

Post#17 » by MrMiyagi » Fri Apr 16, 2021 7:20 am

Is Booker even the 3rd best player on this team?
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Re: Is Booker already the 3rd best player in the history of the Suns? 

Post#18 » by bwgood77 » Fri Apr 16, 2021 7:36 pm

MrMiyagi wrote:Is Booker even the 3rd best player on this team?


Well, although this is green font, I think it's pretty obvious CP3 is 1st, but for purposes of this poll I imagine it also takes into account Suns longevity.

But it wouldn't surprise me at all if another Sun or two on this team finish ahead of him at career's end for greats on this team. Not scoring wise...but complete game...though I know scoring is the most important if on high efficiency.
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Re: Is Booker already the 3rd best player in the history of the Suns? 

Post#19 » by bwgood77 » Fri Apr 16, 2021 7:43 pm

I imagine the voters of the top 2 choices are fans that came on around the SSOL days, or possibly the Barkley days, but even then it seems weird to already place him in top 3 (even with SSOL), or maybe after.

But anyone a fan pre 93 I can't fathom voting top 2.
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Re: Is Booker already the 3rd best player in the history of the Suns? 

Post#20 » by Revived » Sat Apr 17, 2021 1:32 am

No. And honestly I think it’s disrespectful to even have that conversation. Booker is super young so one day perhaps he can be.

But you look at the careers of some of the other guys already mentioned in this thread vs what Booker has accomplished thus far and there’s no debate imo.

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