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2021-22 Season/Offseason Speculation

Moderators: bwgood77, Qwigglez, lilfishi22

Grade the Suns off-season moves so far

A
4
5%
B
40
53%
C
23
30%
D
8
11%
F
1
1%
 
Total votes: 76

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Re: 2021-22 Season/Offseason Speculation 

Post#4261 » by lilfishi22 » Wed Sep 15, 2021 1:25 am

I think we're a being a bit more careful. Unlike when Booker got his extension as soon as he became eligible, our books look a lot different. We had a ton of money coming off the books the following season so it was an easy decision. Now it's a little different with Book inked up for $33m+ for another two seasons after this one, CP3 in the books for ballpark $30m for at least one more season after this one then if you throw in Ayton's max and an upcoming extension for Cam in a season or two, we're at a stage where we need to be more sure of what we have.

I think Ayton is deserving of a max based on him playing the role of a game changing defensive anchor and fast becoming a factor offensively. I feel like we've communicated to him already that he's getting the max and it's just a matter of time for him. The big question mark is what is Bridges worth? A really good young 3&D wing with an ever expanding offensive arsenal is valuable in this league, the question is how valuable? He's probably somewhere in the region of OG ($72m) and Aaron Gordon ($92m) despite 538 saying he's in that $120m range. I think the questions are understandably raised because while he did play a role for us in our playoff run, he wasn't consistent. Had a good Denver series (everyone on the team pretty much did) but aside from that, he wasn't all that impressive. Not trying to downplay his value but it certainly raises questions as to what his value actually is.
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Re: 2021-22 Season/Offseason Speculation 

Post#4262 » by Slim Charless » Wed Sep 15, 2021 1:57 am

lilfishi22 wrote:I think we're a being a bit more careful. Unlike when Booker got his extension as soon as he became eligible, our books look a lot different. We had a ton of money coming off the books the following season so it was an easy decision. Now it's a little different with Book inked up for $33m+ for another two seasons after this one, CP3 in the books for ballpark $30m for at least one more season after this one then if you throw in Ayton's max and an upcoming extension for Cam in a season or two, we're at a stage where we need to be more sure of what we have.

I think Ayton is deserving of a max based on him playing the role of a game changing defensive anchor and fast becoming a factor offensively. I feel like we've communicated to him already that he's getting the max and it's just a matter of time for him. The big question mark is what is Bridges worth? A really good young 3&D wing with an ever expanding offensive arsenal is valuable in this league, the question is how valuable? He's probably somewhere in the region of OG ($72m) and Aaron Gordon ($92m) despite 538 saying he's in that $120m range. I think the questions are understandably raised because while he did play a role for us in our playoff run, he wasn't consistent. Had a good Denver series (everyone on the team pretty much did) but aside from that, he wasn't all that impressive. Not trying to downplay his value but it certainly raises questions as to what his value actually is.


That's the issue I brought up around the draft when I suggested that it might not be TERRIBLE idea if we moved Mikal for a top 5 pick. I think that he's getting a max deal from someone-if only to force us to match. Some other team will give him that deal. I still think we might end up doing that.
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Re: 2021-22 Season/Offseason Speculation 

Post#4263 » by ImNotMcDiSwear » Wed Sep 15, 2021 1:59 am

lilfishi22 wrote:I think we're a being a bit more careful. Unlike when Booker got his extension as soon as he became eligible, our books look a lot different. We had a ton of money coming off the books the following season so it was an easy decision. Now it's a little different with Book inked up for $33m+ for another two seasons after this one, CP3 in the books for ballpark $30m for at least one more season after this one then if you throw in Ayton's max and an upcoming extension for Cam in a season or two, we're at a stage where we need to be more sure of what we have.

I think Ayton is deserving of a max based on him playing the role of a game changing defensive anchor and fast becoming a factor offensively. I feel like we've communicated to him already that he's getting the max and it's just a matter of time for him. The big question mark is what is Bridges worth? A really good young 3&D wing with an ever expanding offensive arsenal is valuable in this league, the question is how valuable? He's probably somewhere in the region of OG ($72m) and Aaron Gordon ($92m) despite 538 saying he's in that $120m range. I think the questions are understandably raised because while he did play a role for us in our playoff run, he wasn't consistent. Had a good Denver series (everyone on the team pretty much did) but aside from that, he wasn't all that impressive. Not trying to downplay his value but it certainly raises questions as to what his value actually is.


I'm okay with an evaluation period for Mikal if he's holding out for anything more than $20 million per. If I'm his agents I'm eyeing a deal around Gordon's, but one big difference between them is Gordon was heading for UFA. Bridges is about to be RFA and... if someone throws $25 million at him in free agency, I'll be shocked. Don't know what would happen. Maybe a S&T? Maybe we just bite the bullet (since I assume he will have just had a great season). Maybe we don't want to play that game, but paying him that kind of money right now would be tough.

I hope you're right that Ayton's deal is sitting on the runway waiting for clearance. I wonder if he's angling for a fifth year player option. I'm sure we'll get some sort of update when camp starts.
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Re: 2021-22 Season/Offseason Speculation 

Post#4264 » by Ghost of Kleine » Wed Sep 15, 2021 2:34 am

bwgood77 wrote:
Ghost of Kleine wrote:Kellan Olson (@KellanOlson) Tweeted:
A notable loss for the Suns. Monty Williams would bring up Fois often throughout the last two years. In his role, obviously a guy that deserves some credit for the way the young players came along the last two seasons.
Read on Twitter
?s=20

I guess it really is true that the Suns just don't value player development anymore. This could really come back to bite them in the azz! Post Paul era. :nonono:


What exactly are you talking about? All our young players have developed nicely and we don't know exactly the way they go about it.


So should we consider these young players a finished product then. Do they not have areas of their game still needing to be further developed or refined? Is development not a continuing process? Even our core players will need continuing development and progression in developing their games more fully and effectively. How is losing a development coach supposed to foster that continuing progression for our team?

We don't have a G league team to send our young or two way development players to, IF we had chosen to keep our own team, Then perhaps ( with it being within our team control) We could of made Tyshon Alexander and/ or Smith's development a more profound focal point. When we don't carry our own representation in the G league, We'll of course not have any influence towards our own players being a focal point ( IF they get much experience/ development time at all on another team's affiliate) Perhaps Smith or Alexander could've been farther along in their progression if we had them as a focal point opposed to being relegated to other miscellaneous teams. I don't know how that can be looked upon as an endorsement of player development?

- We lost Darko Rakovic, Who only really spent one season with us. But was known for his high basketball IQ and player development with young players, etc.

-We lost Willie Green, Who was a key factor in our core players development. I realize that this happens with team success and congrats to him, But who did we replace him with again?

- We just lost Ricardo Fois, Who was integral to our teams culture and work ethic towards fostered improvement and discipline.

- We currently have who exactly on our coaching staff behind Williams? Randy Syers and Mark Bryant?

Is not continuity within the coaching staff important for a player's development as well?

I get that we vastly exceeded expectations by making it all the way to the finals. And I also get that our core players are entering their primes with more maturity, experience, and hopefully greater skillset progression too?
I also get that we're supposedly ( even though we've yet to lock down our two key rotation extension eligible core players) going all in with this team! But that's honestly putting alot of pressure on these young players that whilst having definitely shown great progress, Still have varying areas of their games to further develop and or refine to reach their full abilities.

Also, I will agree that we don't know what their plans or strategies are, But these recent moves/ changes don't exactly illicit feelings of stability or confidence towards our post Paul era. I mean if we succeed, that's great! (Obviously) But what if we don't? What does our plan for continuity and sustainability post Paul actually look like? Beyond our core:

It may be absolutely nothing to concern ourselves over, But then again, It could also just as easily cost us our continuity and chemistry if:

We pay Bridges in excess of 20+ million (market value for 4 yr extension)? But then next summer we don't have the cap to pay Cam Johnson a similar amount? That might create some potential locker room issues if Cam takes another jump this season but gets a lesser amount? And IF we do right by him and pay him that similar amount, Then what does that really leave us with to fill out our roster. Smith will also be due the same time as Cam Johnson is, Do we trade him off or simply let him go in interest of paying Cam an equivalent amount? If so, At that point, where does our low cost contract salary ballast come from to fill out our team?

We've traded out of the draft in 2021 for a player in Landry Shamet whom we might not even match in free agency, If we're close to the tax line. Don't have a pick in 2022, Might look to trade off our young prospect from 2020 for a 1 yr rental (salary dump)! There's just alot of " what ifs" to consider, and not that much clarity on what our plans are/ might be for the inevitable post Paul era. Again, It just seems like we're putting all of our eggs in one basket with this. Not really leaving ourselves much if any legitimate insurance policy??

But yes, Our core players have developed nicely SO FAR. Only time will tell if this newfound progression will hold this season and beyond. I just dislike seeing us losing our continuity/ chemistry in the coaching staff that had helped our young guys to their current level of development. It just seems like we're giving up more than we're getting back to me. Especially for a title contender. :dontknow:
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Re: 2021-22 Season/Offseason Speculation 

Post#4265 » by bigfoot » Wed Sep 15, 2021 2:44 am

Ghost of Kleine wrote:
bwgood77 wrote:
Ghost of Kleine wrote:Kellan Olson (@KellanOlson) Tweeted:
A notable loss for the Suns. Monty Williams would bring up Fois often throughout the last two years. In his role, obviously a guy that deserves some credit for the way the young players came along the last two seasons.
Read on Twitter
?s=20

I guess it really is true that the Suns just don't value player development anymore. This could really come back to bite them in the azz! Post Paul era. :nonono:


What exactly are you talking about? All our young players have developed nicely and we don't know exactly the way they go about it.


So should we consider these young players a finished product then. Do they not have areas of their game still needing to be further developed or refined? Is development not a continuing process? Even our core players will need continuing development and progression in developing their games more fully and effectively. How is losing a development coach supposed to foster that continuing progression for our team?

We don't have a G league team to send our young or two way development players to, IF we had chosen to keep our own team, Then perhaps ( with it being within our team control) We could of made Tyshon Alexander and/ or Smith's development a more profound focal point. When we don't carry our own representation in the G league, We'll of course not have any influence towards our own players being a focal point ( IF they get much experience/ development time at all on another team's affiliate) Perhaps Smith or Alexander could've been farther along in their progression if we had them as a focal point opposed to being relegated to other miscellaneous teams. I don't know how that can be looked upon as an endorsement of player development?

- We lost Darko Rakovic, Who only really spent one season with us. But was known for his high basketball IQ and player development with young players, etc.

-We lost Willie Green, Who was a key factor in our core players development. I realize that this happens with team success and congrats to him, But who did we replace him with again?

- We just lost Ricardo Fois, Who was integral to our teams culture and work ethic towards fostered improvement and discipline.

- We currently have who exactly on our coaching staff behind Williams? Randy Syers and Mark Bryant?

Is not continuity within the coaching staff important for a player's development as well?

I get that we vastly exceeded expectations by making it all the way to the finals. And I also get that our core players are entering their primes with more maturity, experience, and hopefully greater skillset progression too?
I also get that we're supposedly ( even though we've yet to lock down our two key rotation extension eligible core players) going all in with this team! But that's honestly putting alot of pressure on these young players that whilst having definitely shown great progress, Still have varying areas of their games to further develop and or refine to reach their full abilities.

Also, I will agree that we don't know what their plans or strategies are, But these recent moves/ changes don't exactly illicit feelings of stability or confidence towards our post Paul era. I mean if we succeed, that's great! (Obviously) But what if we don't? What does our plan for continuity and sustainability post Paul actually look like? Beyond our core:

It may be absolutely nothing to concern ourselves over, But then again, It could also just as easily cost us our continuity and chemistry if:

We pay Bridges in excess of 20+ million (market value for 4 yr extension)? But then next summer we don't have the cap to pay Cam Johnson a similar amount? That might create some potential locker room issues if Cam takes another jump this season but gets a lesser amount? And IF we do right by him and pay him that similar amount, Then what does that really leave us with to fill out our roster. Smith will also be due the same time as Cam Johnson is, Do we trade him off or simply let him go in interest of paying Cam an equivalent amount? If so, At that point, where does our low cost contract salary ballast come from to fill out our team?

We've traded out of the draft in 2021 for a player in Landry Shamet whom we might not even match in free agency, If we're close to the tax line. Don't have a pick in 2022, Might look to trade off our young prospect from 2020 for a 1 yr rental (salary dump)! There's just alot of " what ifs" to consider, and not that much clarity on what our plans are/ might be for the inevitable post Paul era. Again, It just seems like we're putting all of our eggs in one basket with this. Not really leaving ourselves much if any legitimate insurance policy??

But yes, Our core players have developed nicely SO FAR. Only time will tell if this newfound progression will hold this season and beyond. I just dislike seeing us losing our continuity/ chemistry in the coaching staff that had helped our young guys to their current level of development. It just seems like we're giving up more than we're getting back to me. Especially for a title contender. :dontknow:


That's the price of success. Assistants will get offers and you can't hold back their careers. Monty and James are good with people and also good at bringing in people with character. I still think we have two awesome coaches between Monty and CP3.
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Re: 2021-22 Season/Offseason Speculation 

Post#4266 » by matt131 » Wed Sep 15, 2021 3:36 am

Read on Twitter
?s=20

Not sure what league rule he's referencing. Keeps moving the possibility of this back and back. I'm sure by training camp it'll be likely that it's a mid year trade so we can explore all options.
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Re: 2021-22 Season/Offseason Speculation 

Post#4267 » by Ghost of Kleine » Wed Sep 15, 2021 3:38 am

bwgood77 wrote:
Mulhollanddrive wrote:Aaron Gordon just **** us.

$23m for a worse player than Bridges, we're going to have to give a role player near max.


I don't know...538 already had his value higher than that, over $25 million a year. https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/2022-nba-player-projections/mikal-bridges/


That's pretty steep. What do you think a conservative number might be for Cam next summer if he continues his improvement this season? I'd have him in the 16-18 range. But if he gets above that in the 20 million range???
Things could definitely become a bit complicated!
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Re: 2021-22 Season/Offseason Speculation 

Post#4268 » by lilfishi22 » Wed Sep 15, 2021 3:40 am

ImNotMcDiSwear wrote:
lilfishi22 wrote:I think we're a being a bit more careful. Unlike when Booker got his extension as soon as he became eligible, our books look a lot different. We had a ton of money coming off the books the following season so it was an easy decision. Now it's a little different with Book inked up for $33m+ for another two seasons after this one, CP3 in the books for ballpark $30m for at least one more season after this one then if you throw in Ayton's max and an upcoming extension for Cam in a season or two, we're at a stage where we need to be more sure of what we have.

I think Ayton is deserving of a max based on him playing the role of a game changing defensive anchor and fast becoming a factor offensively. I feel like we've communicated to him already that he's getting the max and it's just a matter of time for him. The big question mark is what is Bridges worth? A really good young 3&D wing with an ever expanding offensive arsenal is valuable in this league, the question is how valuable? He's probably somewhere in the region of OG ($72m) and Aaron Gordon ($92m) despite 538 saying he's in that $120m range. I think the questions are understandably raised because while he did play a role for us in our playoff run, he wasn't consistent. Had a good Denver series (everyone on the team pretty much did) but aside from that, he wasn't all that impressive. Not trying to downplay his value but it certainly raises questions as to what his value actually is.


I'm okay with an evaluation period for Mikal if he's holding out for anything more than $20 million per. If I'm his agents I'm eyeing a deal around Gordon's, but one big difference between them is Gordon was heading for UFA. Bridges is about to be RFA and... if someone throws $25 million at him in free agency, I'll be shocked. Don't know what would happen. Maybe a S&T? Maybe we just bite the bullet (since I assume he will have just had a great season). Maybe we don't want to play that game, but paying him that kind of money right now would be tough.

I hope you're right that Ayton's deal is sitting on the runway waiting for clearance. I wonder if he's angling for a fifth year player option. I'm sure we'll get some sort of update when camp starts.

I'm ok with waiting a year as well. Ultimately, it doesn't change when he'll get paid since he'll stay on his rookie contract until the end of his 4th season anyway. I think if he plays really well, we would be totally fine to match a big offer although I have doubts a massive ($25m+ per) deal would be in the market. I haven't seen the project cap space for other teams yet but I just don't think teams see Mikal as the kinda player you gamble a near max deal. Considering he's already 25 and you can begin to reasonably project the type of player he will likely become and that's primarily a 3&D player with some offensive skills but not a 2nd or 3rd option, he's probably worth about $90-100m at the higher end.

But then again, it takes one team to offer a big deal, it takes his agent to get him to only accept a near max deal and it takes him having a career year to really backfire on wait and see year. Overall, I'm pretty confident we'll retain him, even at a moderate premium.
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Re: 2021-22 Season/Offseason Speculation 

Post#4269 » by Ghost of Kleine » Wed Sep 15, 2021 3:52 am

Spoiler:
bigfoot wrote:
Ghost of Kleine wrote:
bwgood77 wrote:
What exactly are you talking about? All our young players have developed nicely and we don't know exactly the way they go about it.


So should we consider these young players a finished product then. Do they not have areas of their game still needing to be further developed or refined? Is development not a continuing process? Even our core players will need continuing development and progression in developing their games more fully and effectively. How is losing a development coach supposed to foster that continuing progression for our team?

We don't have a G league team to send our young or two way development players to, IF we had chosen to keep our own team, Then perhaps ( with it being within our team control) We could of made Tyshon Alexander and/ or Smith's development a more profound focal point. When we don't carry our own representation in the G league, We'll of course not have any influence towards our own players being a focal point ( IF they get much experience/ development time at all on another team's affiliate) Perhaps Smith or Alexander could've been farther along in their progression if we had them as a focal point opposed to being relegated to other miscellaneous teams. I don't know how that can be looked upon as an endorsement of player development?

- We lost Darko Rakovic, Who only really spent one season with us. But was known for his high basketball IQ and player development with young players, etc.

-We lost Willie Green, Who was a key factor in our core players development. I realize that this happens with team success and congrats to him, But who did we replace him with again?

- We just lost Ricardo Fois, Who was integral to our teams culture and work ethic towards fostered improvement and discipline.

- We currently have who exactly on our coaching staff behind Williams? Randy Syers and Mark Bryant?

Is not continuity within the coaching staff important for a player's development as well?

I get that we vastly exceeded expectations by making it all the way to the finals. And I also get that our core players are entering their primes with more maturity, experience, and hopefully greater skillset progression too?
I also get that we're supposedly ( even though we've yet to lock down our two key rotation extension eligible core players) going all in with this team! But that's honestly putting alot of pressure on these young players that whilst having definitely shown great progress, Still have varying areas of their games to further develop and or refine to reach their full abilities.

Also, I will agree that we don't know what their plans or strategies are, But these recent moves/ changes don't exactly illicit feelings of stability or confidence towards our post Paul era. I mean if we succeed, that's great! (Obviously) But what if we don't? What does our plan for continuity and sustainability post Paul actually look like? Beyond our core:

It may be absolutely nothing to concern ourselves over, But then again, It could also just as easily cost us our continuity and chemistry if:

We pay Bridges in excess of 20+ million (market value for 4 yr extension)? But then next summer we don't have the cap to pay Cam Johnson a similar amount? That might create some potential locker room issues if Cam takes another jump this season but gets a lesser amount? And IF we do right by him and pay him that similar amount, Then what does that really leave us with to fill out our roster. Smith will also be due the same time as Cam Johnson is, Do we trade him off or simply let him go in interest of paying Cam an equivalent amount? If so, At that point, where does our low cost contract salary ballast come from to fill out our team?

We've traded out of the draft in 2021 for a player in Landry Shamet whom we might not even match in free agency, If we're close to the tax line. Don't have a pick in 2022, Might look to trade off our young prospect from 2020 for a 1 yr rental (salary dump)! There's just alot of " what ifs" to consider, and not that much clarity on what our plans are/ might be for the inevitable post Paul era. Again, It just seems like we're putting all of our eggs in one basket with this. Not really leaving ourselves much if any legitimate insurance policy??

But yes, Our core players have developed nicely SO FAR. Only time will tell if this newfound progression will hold this season and beyond. I just dislike seeing us losing our continuity/ chemistry in the coaching staff that had helped our young guys to their current level of development. It just seems like we're giving up more than we're getting back to me. Especially for a title contender. :dontknow:

That's the price of success. Assistants will get offers and you can't hold back their careers. Monty and James are good with people and also good at bringing in people with character. I still think we have two awesome coaches between Monty and CP3.


Very true! I'm actually relieved for us having Monty and Jones to help stabilize things. And you're right on CP3 as well. It'd be amazing if he finished his career here and then joined Monty on our coaching staff!!! Not only for the awesome coaching duo that he'd make alongside of Williams, But also for the Clout that a trio of Jones/ Williams/ Paul could bring to this franchise as well.

I think my only legitimate concerns as it pertains to player development, is in interest of maintaining an influx of cheap, cost effective talent incoming and the necessary coaching staff to foster that growth as a tangible insurance policy for the incoming post Paul era ( IF we happen to lose any key contributors from our core) So they can theoretically step in to somewhat fill any gaps in order to keep us highly competitive and relevant through the next 5+ yrs? :pray:

I'm sure that Jones has a plan though. :D
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Re: 2021-22 Season/Offseason Speculation 

Post#4270 » by Ghost of Kleine » Wed Sep 15, 2021 4:44 am

Spoiler:
Slim Charless wrote:
lilfishi22 wrote:I think we're a being a bit more careful. Unlike when Booker got his extension as soon as he became eligible, our books look a lot different. We had a ton of money coming off the books the following season so it was an easy decision. Now it's a little different with Book inked up for $33m+ for another two seasons after this one, CP3 in the books for ballpark $30m for at least one more season after this one then if you throw in Ayton's max and an upcoming extension for Cam in a season or two, we're at a stage where we need to be more sure of what we have.

I think Ayton is deserving of a max based on him playing the role of a game changing defensive anchor and fast becoming a factor offensively. I feel like we've communicated to him already that he's getting the max and it's just a matter of time for him. The big question mark is what is Bridges worth? A really good young 3&D wing with an ever expanding offensive arsenal is valuable in this league, the question is how valuable? He's probably somewhere in the region of OG ($72m) and Aaron Gordon ($92m) despite 538 saying he's in that $120m range. I think the questions are understandably raised because while he did play a role for us in our playoff run, he wasn't consistent. Had a good Denver series (everyone on the team pretty much did) but aside from that, he wasn't all that impressive. Not trying to downplay his value but it certainly raises questions as to what his value actually is.


That's the issue I brought up around the draft when I suggested that it might not be TERRIBLE idea if we moved Mikal for a top 5 pick. I think that he's getting a max deal from someone-if only to force us to match. Some other team will give him that deal. I still think we might end up doing that.


Whilst I love Mikal and his incredible versatility/ upside, Your proposal ( when considering our imminent cap implications) along with the likelihood of one of either Bridges or Cam being pushed out due to discontent from salary disparity or cap constraints, Seems like the most reasonable course of action, rather than simply losing Bridges to an escalated offer or Cam Johnson to possibly being disgruntled if we can't afford to offer him what he fully thinks he is worth (within market value). Or if in signing Bridges to an excess of 20+ million would leave us hamstrung financially to where we can't offer Cam his full market value or something comparable to what Bridges recieved!

Could this potentially create some hurt feelings or chemistry issues ( jealousy) in the locker room. IF we had to choose between the two of Cam and Bridges, Knowing we'd have to lose one or the other due to cap constraints, AND their anticipated projections, Who would you choose honestly.

Again, I love Bridges skillset/ upside. But things are going to be really tight for us financially next summer, Even before Johnson's and Smith's extensions come due. We really need that young incoming talent that can serve as salary ballast to our max contracts, and also provide a modicum of rotational insurance against possibly losing them to varying circumstances. Bridges could've likely gotten us the two lottery worthy players on rookie scale contracts.

We could've ended up with a Davion Mitchell - Moses Moody, Davion Mitchell/ Tre Murphy, or a Jonathan Kuminga/ Jared Butler. Or a Davion Mitchell/ Jalen Johnson. And then still flipped our 29th pick/ Carter to Brooklyn for Shamet. I get that we're competing for a title, But IF we can't close the deal on a championship before Paul leaves in 2024, Then Things could get really dicey not only with Booker, But also with Johnson and Bridges/ Ayton contractually in 2022/2023.

I just hope that we can REALISTICALLY keep our core together, Resign Cam and Smith, And still fill out the team reasonably to remain competitive. But I worry that we may be following in the Thunders' footsteps when they had tough decisions to make with : Westbrook/ Harden/ Durant/ Ibaka??
This concern only further exacerbated by Savers financial inadequacies :o :-?
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Re: 2021-22 Season/Offseason Speculation 

Post#4271 » by Ghost of Kleine » Wed Sep 15, 2021 5:01 am

FLEX From Jersey (@FlexFromJersey) Tweeted:
James Jones is good at negotiating trades. He will wait as long as needed until he gets the deal he wants. He sat on the CP3 deal for months until it was the deal he wanted. This deal should be no different, Suns won't bid against themselves. I trust James Jones & Company! https://t.co/j9Xgjl5EKB
Read on Twitter
?s=20
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Re: 2021-22 Season/Offseason Speculation 

Post#4272 » by Bogyo » Wed Sep 15, 2021 5:22 am

Ghost of Kleine wrote:FLEX From Jersey (@FlexFromJersey) Tweeted:
James Jones is good at negotiating trades. He will wait as long as needed until he gets the deal he wants. He sat on the CP3 deal for months until it was the deal he wanted. This deal should be no different, Suns won't bid against themselves. I trust James Jones & Company! https://t.co/j9Xgjl5EKB
Read on Twitter
?s=20


For the love of all things holy, can we pretty please with sugar on the top NOT quote this lying, fake, wannabe, annoying weirdo dude as if he were any different from any of us here? In fact, can we just stop quoting him at all?
He has no info, he writes and sounds weird, and is absolutely bad all round.
Thank you for coming to my TED talk.
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Re: 2021-22 Season/Offseason Speculation 

Post#4273 » by lilfishi22 » Wed Sep 15, 2021 5:23 am

Slim Charless wrote:
lilfishi22 wrote:I think we're a being a bit more careful. Unlike when Booker got his extension as soon as he became eligible, our books look a lot different. We had a ton of money coming off the books the following season so it was an easy decision. Now it's a little different with Book inked up for $33m+ for another two seasons after this one, CP3 in the books for ballpark $30m for at least one more season after this one then if you throw in Ayton's max and an upcoming extension for Cam in a season or two, we're at a stage where we need to be more sure of what we have.

I think Ayton is deserving of a max based on him playing the role of a game changing defensive anchor and fast becoming a factor offensively. I feel like we've communicated to him already that he's getting the max and it's just a matter of time for him. The big question mark is what is Bridges worth? A really good young 3&D wing with an ever expanding offensive arsenal is valuable in this league, the question is how valuable? He's probably somewhere in the region of OG ($72m) and Aaron Gordon ($92m) despite 538 saying he's in that $120m range. I think the questions are understandably raised because while he did play a role for us in our playoff run, he wasn't consistent. Had a good Denver series (everyone on the team pretty much did) but aside from that, he wasn't all that impressive. Not trying to downplay his value but it certainly raises questions as to what his value actually is.


That's the issue I brought up around the draft when I suggested that it might not be TERRIBLE idea if we moved Mikal for a top 5 pick. I think that he's getting a max deal from someone-if only to force us to match. Some other team will give him that deal. I still think we might end up doing that.

Yeah I dunno, I don't see a max deal out there to be honest. I also wouldn't move such a known quantity in Bridges for the uncertainty of a top 5 pick nor the miniscule chance a random team is going to clear max space to throw an offer at Bridges. I love Bridges but he's just not that kinda guy that would get that kinda offer. Maybe a guy like Sexton who has been a go-to guy on a lotto team or someone with insane offensive upside like MPJ might get a max offer but it's hard for me to imagine a team going all in on a primarily 3&D guy.
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Re: 2021-22 Season/Offseason Speculation 

Post#4274 » by lilfishi22 » Wed Sep 15, 2021 5:25 am

Bogyo wrote:
Ghost of Kleine wrote:FLEX From Jersey (@FlexFromJersey) Tweeted:
James Jones is good at negotiating trades. He will wait as long as needed until he gets the deal he wants. He sat on the CP3 deal for months until it was the deal he wanted. This deal should be no different, Suns won't bid against themselves. I trust James Jones & Company! https://t.co/j9Xgjl5EKB
Read on Twitter
?s=20


For the love of all things holy, can we pretty please with sugar on the top NOT quote this lying, fake, wannabe, annoying weirdo dude as if he were any different from any of us here? In fact, can we just stop quoting him at all?
He has no info, he writes and sounds weird, and is absolutely bad all round.
Thank you for coming to my TED talk.

Yeah not to say Jones is good or bad at negotiating trades/signings but "winning" at all cost like waiting for as long as it takes to get a deal done might actually have left off a lot of potentially good additions to the team because Jones is waiting for the perfect deal.
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Re: 2021-22 Season/Offseason Speculation 

Post#4275 » by lilfishi22 » Wed Sep 15, 2021 5:29 am

Ghost of Kleine wrote:
Spoiler:
Slim Charless wrote:
lilfishi22 wrote:I think we're a being a bit more careful. Unlike when Booker got his extension as soon as he became eligible, our books look a lot different. We had a ton of money coming off the books the following season so it was an easy decision. Now it's a little different with Book inked up for $33m+ for another two seasons after this one, CP3 in the books for ballpark $30m for at least one more season after this one then if you throw in Ayton's max and an upcoming extension for Cam in a season or two, we're at a stage where we need to be more sure of what we have.

I think Ayton is deserving of a max based on him playing the role of a game changing defensive anchor and fast becoming a factor offensively. I feel like we've communicated to him already that he's getting the max and it's just a matter of time for him. The big question mark is what is Bridges worth? A really good young 3&D wing with an ever expanding offensive arsenal is valuable in this league, the question is how valuable? He's probably somewhere in the region of OG ($72m) and Aaron Gordon ($92m) despite 538 saying he's in that $120m range. I think the questions are understandably raised because while he did play a role for us in our playoff run, he wasn't consistent. Had a good Denver series (everyone on the team pretty much did) but aside from that, he wasn't all that impressive. Not trying to downplay his value but it certainly raises questions as to what his value actually is.


That's the issue I brought up around the draft when I suggested that it might not be TERRIBLE idea if we moved Mikal for a top 5 pick. I think that he's getting a max deal from someone-if only to force us to match. Some other team will give him that deal. I still think we might end up doing that.


Whilst I love Mikal and his incredible versatility/ upside, Your proposal ( when considering our imminent cap implications) along with the likelihood of one of either Bridges or Cam being pushed out due to discontent from salary disparity or cap constraints, Seems like the most reasonable course of action, rather than simply losing Bridges to an escalated offer or Cam Johnson to possibly being disgruntled if we can't afford to offer him what he fully thinks he is worth (within market value). Or if in signing Bridges to an excess of 20+ million would leave us hamstrung financially to where we can't offer Cam his full market value or something comparable to what Bridges recieved!

Could this potentially create some hurt feelings or chemistry issues ( jealousy) in the locker room. IF we had to choose between the two of Cam and Bridges, Knowing we'd have to lose one or the other due to cap constraints, AND their anticipated projections, Who would you choose honestly.

Again, I love Bridges skillset/ upside. But things are going to be really tight for us financially next summer, Even before Johnson's and Smith's extensions come due. We really need that young incoming talent that can serve as salary ballast to our max contracts, and also provide a modicum of rotational insurance against possibly losing them to varying circumstances. Bridges could've likely gotten us the two lottery worthy players on rookie scale contracts.

We could've ended up with a Davion Mitchell - Moses Moody, Davion Mitchell/ Tre Murphy, or a Jonathan Kuminga/ Jared Butler. Or a Davion Mitchell/ Jalen Johnson. And then still flipped our 29th pick/ Carter to Brooklyn for Shamet. I get that we're competing for a title, But IF we can't close the deal on a championship before Paul leaves in 2024, Then Things could get really dicey not only with Booker, But also with Johnson and Bridges/ Ayton contractually in 2022/2023.

I just hope that we can REALISTICALLY keep our core together, Resign Cam and Smith, And still fill out the team reasonably to remain competitive. But I worry that we may be following in the Thunders' footsteps when they had tough decisions to make with : Westbrook/ Harden/ Durant/ Ibaka??
This concern only further exacerbated by Savers financial inadequacies :o :-?

As I mentioned in my reply to Slim, you're risking a lot for the tiny risk that someone might clear enough space to throw Bridges a max offer. You don't know if the guy you pick up in the top 5 will even end up being as good a player as Bridges. We don't know what Cam is worth when it comes time for his deal to be extended and I think you're assuming a lot of things like hurt feelings and chemistry issues to justify a pretty significant trade. If anything, I think there would be more of a risk of chemistry issues if you traded away a great team guy in Mikal who by all accounts is great friends with Cam, for a top 5 guy who likely has an ego. I think you're jumping the gun with a move like this.
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Re: 2021-22 Season/Offseason Speculation 

Post#4276 » by Slim Charless » Wed Sep 15, 2021 5:41 am

lilfishi22 wrote:
Ghost of Kleine wrote:
Slim Charless wrote:
That's the issue I brought up around the draft when I suggested that it might not be TERRIBLE idea if we moved Mikal for a top 5 pick. I think that he's getting a max deal from someone-if only to force us to match. Some other team will give him that deal. I still think we might end up doing that.


Whilst I love Mikal and his incredible versatility/ upside, Your proposal ( when considering our imminent cap implications) along with the likelihood of one of either Bridges or Cam being pushed out due to discontent from salary disparity or cap constraints, Seems like the most reasonable course of action, rather than simply losing Bridges to an escalated offer or Cam Johnson to possibly being disgruntled if we can't afford to offer him what he fully thinks he is worth (within market value). Or if in signing Bridges to an excess of 20+ million would leave us hamstrung financially to where we can't offer Cam his full market value or something comparable to what Bridges recieved!

Could this potentially create some hurt feelings or chemistry issues ( jealousy) in the locker room. IF we had to choose between the two of Cam and Bridges, Knowing we'd have to lose one or the other due to cap constraints, AND their anticipated projections, Who would you choose honestly.

Again, I love Bridges skillset/ upside. But things are going to be really tight for us financially next summer, Even before Johnson's and Smith's extensions come due. We really need that young incoming talent that can serve as salary ballast to our max contracts, and also provide a modicum of rotational insurance against possibly losing them to varying circumstances. Bridges could've likely gotten us the two lottery worthy players on rookie scale contracts.

We could've ended up with a Davion Mitchell - Moses Moody, Davion Mitchell/ Tre Murphy, or a Jonathan Kuminga/ Jared Butler. Or a Davion Mitchell/ Jalen Johnson. And then still flipped our 29th pick/ Carter to Brooklyn for Shamet. I get that we're competing for a title, But IF we can't close the deal on a championship before Paul leaves in 2024, Then Things could get really dicey not only with Booker, But also with Johnson and Bridges/ Ayton contractually in 2022/2023.

I just hope that we can REALISTICALLY keep our core together, Resign Cam and Smith, And still fill out the team reasonably to remain competitive. But I worry that we may be following in the Thunders' footsteps when they had tough decisions to make with : Westbrook/ Harden/ Durant/ Ibaka??
This concern only further exacerbated by Savers financial inadequacies :o :-?

As I mentioned in my reply to Slim, you're risking a lot for the tiny risk that someone might clear enough space to throw Bridges a max offer. You don't know if the guy you pick up in the top 5 will even end up being as good a player as Bridges. We don't know what Cam is worth when it comes time for his deal to be extended and I think you're assuming a lot of things like hurt feelings and chemistry issues to justify a pretty significant trade. If anything, I think there would be more of a risk of chemistry issues if you traded away a great team guy in Mikal who by all accounts is great friends with Cam, for a top 5 guy who likely has an ego. I think you're jumping the gun with a move like this.


I think a team like ORL/NYK/HOU/DET wouldn't hesitate to throw a max deal at him. All of them should have the money to do so this summer I think as well.
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Re: 2021-22 Season/Offseason Speculation 

Post#4277 » by bwgood77 » Wed Sep 15, 2021 5:54 am

Barkley6 wrote:
bwgood77 wrote:
ImNotMcDiSwear wrote:OK, I wasn't too concerned about this in July or August, but training camp starts in just over two weeks and we haven't heard a peep about extensions for Ayton and Bridges. What gives? How much is there to discuss with Ayton, really? I could see putting some incentives in his deal to qualify for the max, but otherwise, we're offering the 5 year max, right? What's the hold up?

I can see why negotiations might draw out a bit for Mikal, since his valuation is arguable. But I really expected we'd get something done with both of them. I could see going into camp with Mikal's deal still in the air - I could even see us going into next summer with him as RFA. But not seeing any update for either is giving me flashbacks.

So what gives? When are we going to see a deal for Ayton get done, or both?


I think we will but I don't see any real reason to be waiting. Just get them done and move on.


I've kind of wondered if maybe they are waiting for the rest of the offseason to be 'done' just so they can see exactly how much salary they are committed to over the next couple seasons. I think if we're looking at the tax coming in the next few years, a difference of a couple million could mean a lot to the Suns and probably wouldn't be as significant to either Bridges or Ayton in the grand scheme (i.e. is 4/$90 that different than 4/$94 for Bridges? No, but if it's the difference between tax tiers for the Suns then its a huge difference).


I don't think they will concern themselves too much with a couple million on a FA...Sarver has said he learned his lesson with Joe Johnson when they were apart on an extension in the summer of 2004...he was worth more than double that the next summer.

We can make other moves. A couple million isn't much. Any moves we make will not be signficant or impact those guys. Those guys are much more important to our core than whatever else we might do (Thad, Love, etc).
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Re: 2021-22 Season/Offseason Speculation 

Post#4278 » by bwgood77 » Wed Sep 15, 2021 6:00 am

lilfishi22 wrote:I think we're a being a bit more careful. Unlike when Booker got his extension as soon as he became eligible, our books look a lot different. We had a ton of money coming off the books the following season so it was an easy decision. Now it's a little different with Book inked up for $33m+ for another two seasons after this one, CP3 in the books for ballpark $30m for at least one more season after this one then if you throw in Ayton's max and an upcoming extension for Cam in a season or two, we're at a stage where we need to be more sure of what we have.

I think Ayton is deserving of a max based on him playing the role of a game changing defensive anchor and fast becoming a factor offensively. I feel like we've communicated to him already that he's getting the max and it's just a matter of time for him. The big question mark is what is Bridges worth? A really good young 3&D wing with an ever expanding offensive arsenal is valuable in this league, the question is how valuable? He's probably somewhere in the region of OG ($72m) and Aaron Gordon ($92m) despite 538 saying he's in that $120m range. I think the questions are understandably raised because while he did play a role for us in our playoff run, he wasn't consistent. Had a good Denver series (everyone on the team pretty much did) but aside from that, he wasn't all that impressive. Not trying to downplay his value but it certainly raises questions as to what his value actually is.


Well the $120 was 5 years...Gordon's is 4 at $23 a year. $23 at 5 years is $115.

Anyway, it does seem like general fans and fans of other teams value Mikal more than our forum does, for whatever reason....though Max and David Nash speculated at the $25 a year amount, which I felt was a bit high. Always felt it would be more like $22.5...around $4/90. But I wouldn't wait. He adds more to his game every year than anyone else and has continually gotten better, missing out on all defensive by 1 vote....becoming the elite 3 pt shooter, now creating his own shot, etc, which he seems to talk a lot about expanding on. I think he is going to be a very key player for our future.
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Re: 2021-22 Season/Offseason Speculation 

Post#4279 » by bwgood77 » Wed Sep 15, 2021 6:07 am

ImNotMcDiSwear wrote:
lilfishi22 wrote:I think we're a being a bit more careful. Unlike when Booker got his extension as soon as he became eligible, our books look a lot different. We had a ton of money coming off the books the following season so it was an easy decision. Now it's a little different with Book inked up for $33m+ for another two seasons after this one, CP3 in the books for ballpark $30m for at least one more season after this one then if you throw in Ayton's max and an upcoming extension for Cam in a season or two, we're at a stage where we need to be more sure of what we have.

I think Ayton is deserving of a max based on him playing the role of a game changing defensive anchor and fast becoming a factor offensively. I feel like we've communicated to him already that he's getting the max and it's just a matter of time for him. The big question mark is what is Bridges worth? A really good young 3&D wing with an ever expanding offensive arsenal is valuable in this league, the question is how valuable? He's probably somewhere in the region of OG ($72m) and Aaron Gordon ($92m) despite 538 saying he's in that $120m range. I think the questions are understandably raised because while he did play a role for us in our playoff run, he wasn't consistent. Had a good Denver series (everyone on the team pretty much did) but aside from that, he wasn't all that impressive. Not trying to downplay his value but it certainly raises questions as to what his value actually is.


I'm okay with an evaluation period for Mikal if he's holding out for anything more than $20 million per. If I'm his agents I'm eyeing a deal around Gordon's, but one big difference between them is Gordon was heading for UFA. Bridges is about to be RFA and... if someone throws $25 million at him in free agency, I'll be shocked. Don't know what would happen. Maybe a S&T? Maybe we just bite the bullet (since I assume he will have just had a great season). Maybe we don't want to play that game, but paying him that kind of money right now would be tough.

I hope you're right that Ayton's deal is sitting on the runway waiting for clearance. I wonder if he's angling for a fifth year player option. I'm sure we'll get some sort of update when camp starts.


Why are you concerned with a couple million a year? Curious. Not giving an extension a guy wants could backfire. I've always been a "we have his rights to match" guy but still....extending should be a no brainer.

We will almost certainly be an over the cap team for the foreseeable future, so it's not like saving a couple mill gives us cap space.

Seems like a lot of people worried about Sarver's pocketbook. We have a definite core 3 and probably core 4 with Cam not counting Paul)...and maybe Cam Payne enters that core with another step.

Once our team is good it seems like many (and Sarver) has thought we will continue to be good and can make moves. Our core starters are all very important and I wouldn't mess with them, consider a S&T, trade for a top 5 pick or any of that. You get rid of a glue guy...best defender, most efficient player on team, that would be absurd, especially if it was because a couple million.
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Re: 2021-22 Season/Offseason Speculation 

Post#4280 » by bwgood77 » Wed Sep 15, 2021 6:09 am

Ghost of Kleine wrote:
bwgood77 wrote:
Mulhollanddrive wrote:Aaron Gordon just **** us.

$23m for a worse player than Bridges, we're going to have to give a role player near max.


I don't know...538 already had his value higher than that, over $25 million a year. https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/2022-nba-player-projections/mikal-bridges/


That's pretty steep. What do you think a conservative number might be for Cam next summer if he continues his improvement this season? I'd have him in the 16-18 range. But if he gets above that in the 20 million range???
Things could definitely become a bit complicated!


I don't know..here is Cam's # right now... https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/2022-nba-player-projections/cameron-johnson/

They are probably a little high on Mikal and a little low on Cam.

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