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Even though it's hard to see what's going to happen with all the upcoming extensions, it starts to look like that sooner or later either Ayton or Bridges will be gone. If this indeed is the scenario, who would you prefer to keep?

Edit:
This is a hypothetical scenario. Lets say it's not possible to keep both.

sasquatchBob wrote:Even though it's hard to see what's going to happen with all the upcoming extensions, it starts to look like that sooner or later either Ayton or Bridges will be gone. If this indeed is the scenario, who would you prefer to keep?

I SERIOUSLY doubt this would happen. Sarver cannot possibly break up a key part of a successful team.

But if push came to shove, I'd look at who fetched more in a trade. If we don't have a C we are screwed..so we'd need to get one back.

But without Bridges D and efficiency, we are screwed.

We drop out of playoffs either way if one is gone, especially when Paul declines or is gone.

It may not seem like it but we would certainly be worse than the LA teams, GS, Utah, Denver, probably Dallas and possibly Portland. Watch out for Minnesota too if they can work out a deal revolving around DLo for Simmons.

Then Memphis we also play about even already.

Yeah, I would imagine both are going to be long-term Suns players. CP3 is only guaranteed for two years so there is a fair amount of wiggle room to stay out of lux tax in the future.

bwgood77 wrote:

sasquatchBob wrote:Even though it's hard to see what's going to happen with all the upcoming extensions, it starts to look like that sooner or later either Ayton or Bridges will be gone. If this indeed is the scenario, who would you prefer to keep?

I SERIOUSLY doubt this would happen. Sarver cannot possibly break up a key part of a successful team.

But if push came to shove, I'd look at who fetched more in a trade. If we don't have a C we are screwed..so we'd need to get one back.

But without Bridges D and efficiency, we are screwed.

We drop out of playoffs either way if one is gone, especially when Paul declines or is gone.

It may not seem like it but we would certainly be worse than the LA teams, GS, Utah, Denver, probably Dallas and possibly Portland. Watch out for Minnesota too if they can work out a deal revolving around DLo for Simmons.

Then Memphis we also play about even already.

I think there's many good Mikal options if we had to move on. By that I mean trading him-as letting either player walk free is dumb. There's a multitude of teams that could give us back reasonable stuff-and that he would resign with. In the trade and general forums I already see Magic fans talking about offering him a deal to force our hand. I'm sure they'd fork over some valuable (cheap talent for our cheap owner) stuff for him. DET and Houston too I'll bet would go as well.

As opposed to DA, where if he had to trade him, we'd need a other big back so imo that pretty much limits us to swapping Ayton for Booker's buddy in Minnesota. Which means our defense would take a massive hit

Hopefully $arver ponies up or just sells the damn team. Neither option is very good.

No no no no no NO.

Ayton and Bridges are among the best third and fourth offensive options on one NBA team EVER.

We need to stop thinking like this immediately. Yes, I know it's Robert Sarver we're counting on but I don't care. He finally has a winner; if he shortchanges this organization he'll not only lose 1, but all 4 of our best players. Hopefully someone will get in his ear and talk him out of it. It seems like James Jones might finally have that power. I sincerely hope so. As fans, though, we can NOT start thinking like this. It's both or neither.

FTFY.

There is basically a 0% chance that this scenario happens.

EDIT - OK.....IF this were to happen, then this (https://allthatsinteresting.com/johan-de-witt) would happen to Sarver.

Gerald Bourguet (@GeraldBourguet) Tweeted:
Next up on our Suns player season previews over at @PHNX_Suns is Jalen Smith, who has a lot to prove this year: https://t.co/u11DG9TZis ?s=20

Ayton.

Bridges is an elite role player but it's hard to see him putting up the numbers to get close to All-Star, plus I think his personality is one who won't be fussed if he's the 4th guy for a decade.

Keep both unless Bridges wants near max.

But if I had to choose then yeah Ayton for sure. Ayton’s defensive impact can’t be overstated.

Ghost of Kleine wrote:Gerald Bourguet (@GeraldBourguet) Tweeted:
Next up on our Suns player season previews over at @PHNX_Suns is Jalen Smith, who has a lot to prove this year: https://t.co/u11DG9TZis

Read on Twitter

?s=20

What exactly does this have to do with the topic? Do they discuss the Ayton/Bridges debate in this pod along with Jalen Smith?

bwgood77 wrote:

Ghost of Kleine wrote:Gerald Bourguet (@GeraldBourguet) Tweeted:
Next up on our Suns player season previews over at @PHNX_Suns is Jalen Smith, who has a lot to prove this year: https://t.co/u11DG9TZis

Read on Twitter

?s=20

What exactly does this have to do with the topic? Do they discuss the Ayton/Bridges debate in this pod along with Jalen Smith?

I took it as trade ayton and bridges and keep smith

If we're playing the hypothetical, who would I keep? That's a tough one to answer. I typed up multiple answers after doing a pros/cons list in my head. It's just so hard to answer.

I'm just gonna go with Ayton because it's what I'm feeling right now as I type. But it's a toss up in my head

I keep Ayton because we at least got Cam Johnson who can start for SF and he can probably do a couple things better offensively than what Bridges can, though defensively we lose a lot.

But yeah, why not keep both?

bwgood77 wrote:

Ghost of Kleine wrote:Gerald Bourguet (@GeraldBourguet) Tweeted:
Next up on our Suns player season previews over at @PHNX_Suns is Jalen Smith, who has a lot to prove this year: https://t.co/u11DG9TZis

Read on Twitter

?s=20

What exactly does this have to do with the topic? Do they discuss the Ayton/Bridges debate in this pod along with Jalen Smith?

Sorry!
Obviously posted this in the wrong thread. That's what I get for trying to do too many things at once this morning and rushing. Apologies to everyone on this.

The problem with this roster is Sarver. You can't compete in this league over multiple seasons unless you pay the luxury tax. If he's unwilling to do that, we're simply SOL for as long as he owns the team.

It took us ten years of suffering to cobble together enough talent to compete. If he lets these guys walk, it'll take that long to get back to this level, and Sarver will squander the opportunity again.

I can see haggling over Bridges' price tag, because the analysis is complicated. He's an advanced stats darling who produces relatively few counting stats. I think I have a pretty nuanced perspective on the game and I still have problems paying a guy who is essentially an elite glue guy. But Ayton? IMO, he's underrated league-wide, and still I think most any GM would gladly pay him the max.

Colangelo may have made mistakes, but he understood something Sarver doesn't: you can't win each and every contract. You take risks. Sometimes you end up with a bad deal on the books. That's a cost of doing business. If you're committed to avoiding that at all costs, that cost will be your chance at contention.

You pay these guys and we're guaranteed another 2 years of contention, with a chance that we'll continue to contend with this core beyond Chris Paul's eventual retirement. If you don't, you're risking every single card in your deck, because falling out of contention to save money will surely cost you Booker as well.

If we end up losing either one of them that would be the last straw. I would no longer be a Suns fan after being a fan for 20 years. There's only so much I can take. Losing Joe Johnson still hurts to this day.

ImNotMcDiSwear wrote:The problem with this roster is Sarver. You can't compete in this league over multiple seasons unless you pay the luxury tax. If he's unwilling to do that, we're simply SOL for as long as he owns the team.

It took us ten years of suffering to cobble together enough talent to compete. If he lets these guys walk, it'll take that long to get back to this level, and Sarver will squander the opportunity again.

I can see haggling over Bridges' price tag, because the analysis is complicated. He's an advanced stats darling who produces relatively few counting stats. I think I have a pretty nuanced perspective on the game and I still have problems paying a guy who is essentially an elite glue guy. But Ayton? IMO, he's underrated league-wide, and still I think most any GM would gladly pay him the max.

Colangelo may have made mistakes, but he understood something Sarver doesn't: you can't win each and every contract. You take risks. Sometimes you end up with a bad deal on the books. That's a cost of doing business. If you're committed to avoiding that at all costs, that cost will be your chance at contention.

You pay these guys and we're guaranteed another 2 years of contention, with a chance that we'll continue to contend with this core beyond Chris Paul's eventual retirement. If you don't, you're risking every single card in your deck, because falling out of contention to save money will surely cost you Booker as well.

I would bet Bridges would be more coveted than Ayton next summer. Not necessarily that people would pay him more than people would pay Ayton, but that every team could use a great 3 pt shooter who is a top tier defender, elite finisher and basically the perfect teammate with a crazy high bbiq.

There are a lot of good 3 pt shooters (though only 15-20 better than he was last year), and a alot of good defenders, though he ranked 11th in All NBA defense in his 3rd year in the NBA (VERY RARE).

I imagine he will also be doing more creating of his own shot. I didn't mention he is a great passer who very rarely turns it over. He doesn't get to ball handle much but has had 8 assists in a game and sometimes is one of the better guys at getting it to Ayton, etc.

A lot of teams have Centers though. Ayton right now is a solid 1 on 1 defender and a much improving help defender and a finisher who has a few moves offensively, rebounds, screens and contests shots.

A lot of C's do all those things. The main thing he is better at than most...maybe top tier is switching and guarding smaller guys on the perimeter, but a lot of people also think he gets burned too much when this happens and that he isn't great at it (I disagree...he does get burned by crafty quick guards but holds his own against most).

Anyway, tons of teams have very good to great or at least adequate Cs for today's game. Not many teams have a top tier wing defender who can guard the opposition's best player every night as well as be efficient enough while taking the most high quality shots that he had a near 67% TS%. I doubt there are more than a couple of non Cs with a TS% higher.

bwgood77 wrote:

ImNotMcDiSwear wrote:The problem with this roster is Sarver. You can't compete in this league over multiple seasons unless you pay the luxury tax. If he's unwilling to do that, we're simply SOL for as long as he owns the team.

It took us ten years of suffering to cobble together enough talent to compete. If he lets these guys walk, it'll take that long to get back to this level, and Sarver will squander the opportunity again.

I can see haggling over Bridges' price tag, because the analysis is complicated. He's an advanced stats darling who produces relatively few counting stats. I think I have a pretty nuanced perspective on the game and I still have problems paying a guy who is essentially an elite glue guy. But Ayton? IMO, he's underrated league-wide, and still I think most any GM would gladly pay him the max.

Colangelo may have made mistakes, but he understood something Sarver doesn't: you can't win each and every contract. You take risks. Sometimes you end up with a bad deal on the books. That's a cost of doing business. If you're committed to avoiding that at all costs, that cost will be your chance at contention.

You pay these guys and we're guaranteed another 2 years of contention, with a chance that we'll continue to contend with this core beyond Chris Paul's eventual retirement. If you don't, you're risking every single card in your deck, because falling out of contention to save money will surely cost you Booker as well.

I would bet Bridges would be more coveted than Ayton next summer. Not necessarily that people would pay him more than people would pay Ayton, but that every team could use a great 3 pt shooter who is a top tier defender, elite finisher and basically the perfect teammate with a crazy high bbiq.

There are a lot of good 3 pt shooters (though only 15-20 better than he was last year), and a alot of good defenders, though he ranked 11th in All NBA defense in his 3rd year in the NBA (VERY RARE).

I imagine he will also be doing more creating of his own shot. I didn't mention he is a great passer who very rarely turns it over. He doesn't get to ball handle much but has had 8 assists in a game and sometimes is one of the better guys at getting it to Ayton, etc.

A lot of teams have Centers though. Ayton right now is a solid 1 on 1 defender and a much improving help defender and a finisher who has a few moves offensively, rebounds, screens and contests shots.

A lot of C's do all those things. The main thing he is better at than most...maybe top tier is switching and guarding smaller guys on the perimeter, but a lot of people also think he gets burned too much when this happens and that he isn't great at it (I disagree...he does get burned by crafty quick guards but holds his own against most).

Anyway, tons of teams have very good to great or at least adequate Cs for today's game. Not many teams have a top tier wing defender who can guard the opposition's best player every night as well as be efficient enough while taking the most high quality shots that he had a near 67% TS%. I doubt there are more than a couple of non Cs with a TS% higher.

You might be right. I do find it puzzling that you consider it a mark against Ayton that "most teams have Cs" and " at least adequate Cs" when obviously most teams have at least adequate small forwards as well. You can't exactly slot him in at the 2 due to his lack of ballhandling, though you think he has more in his bag than we've seen. If you were right about that, I wouldn't disagree with you, I don't think. You say Bridges is "elite" in several respects, but Ayton is an elite rebounder and post defender. He is also, like Bridges, a great passer who rarely turns it over - but that's in large part because of the way this team is coached.

I also think it's a little disingenuous to say that Bridges guards the opposing team's top player every night. He can't guard Lebron, and Paul George roasted him in the WCF. The common denominator there is size. He's not one of those super-rare defenders who can guard every position. He can't guard the 4, and I don't recall him guarding traditional point guards last season, either. Among young defenders, I think Thybulle and Dort are better, and Brown and OG are right there with him.

And on the flipside, I think that in a one-on-one, Ayton bests every center in the league other than Embiid, Gobert and Towns. Last year he finally got to the level where he played Gobert essentially even, and with Towns - he wrecks him on both ends one game, then the other, Towns goes off from deep and destroys Ayton: hard to categorize that as a win or a loss. Embiid is the only center who bests him consistently.

Where I come down hard on this question is positional rankings. I think Ayton is, overall, a top-5 center in the league, behind Jokic and Embiid, and jostling for position with Gobert and Towns, ahead of Adebayo (though that is apparently a minority opinion). Is Bridges a top-5 small forward? Obviously not. Tatum, Jaylen Brown, Doncic, Kawhi and Middleton are all very clearly ahead, and then arguably Butler, George, Ingram, Grant, Barnes and Anunoby are better as well. I feel I'm being generous in consideration of the advanced stats you are sure to be relying on as a counterpoint - I think most people would put all of those players except maybe Barnes and Anunoby ahead of Mikal, though I might prefer Mikal to everyone in that group except maybe Jerami Grant, maaaybe Ingram or Anuboy. There are also plenty of other young players who could leapfrog him in the near future like Barrett, Hunter, Cam Johnson, Keldon Johnson, maybe even Desmond Bane or Jonathan Isaac if he ever gets healthy. FWIW, I have him solidly ahead of Derozan, as well as Hayward, Warren (obviously, injuries), Ingles, Bojan, Barton and Saddiq Bey, but on any given night, those guys could match or exceed Bridges' impact.

Guys that fit Bridges' profile show up in every draft, though not all of them pan out. Guys that fit Ayton's profile are once every several years (Wiseman was the last, and he's not looked great so far). My point here is that Bridges might not be easily, fully replaceable, but it's not *that* hard to get close.

All that said, I'd still pay Bridges what it takes to keep him around, unless he's asking for the max or near-max as well. My principal concern when it comes to payroll is having to choose between Bridges and Cam Johnson, since I think Cam's ceiling is higher. But at the end of the day, you pay to keep this team together, because it takes money to win in this league. You go big or go home.

ImNotMcDiSwear wrote:

bwgood77 wrote:

ImNotMcDiSwear wrote:The problem with this roster is Sarver. You can't compete in this league over multiple seasons unless you pay the luxury tax. If he's unwilling to do that, we're simply SOL for as long as he owns the team.

It took us ten years of suffering to cobble together enough talent to compete. If he lets these guys walk, it'll take that long to get back to this level, and Sarver will squander the opportunity again.

I can see haggling over Bridges' price tag, because the analysis is complicated. He's an advanced stats darling who produces relatively few counting stats. I think I have a pretty nuanced perspective on the game and I still have problems paying a guy who is essentially an elite glue guy. But Ayton? IMO, he's underrated league-wide, and still I think most any GM would gladly pay him the max.

Colangelo may have made mistakes, but he understood something Sarver doesn't: you can't win each and every contract. You take risks. Sometimes you end up with a bad deal on the books. That's a cost of doing business. If you're committed to avoiding that at all costs, that cost will be your chance at contention.

You pay these guys and we're guaranteed another 2 years of contention, with a chance that we'll continue to contend with this core beyond Chris Paul's eventual retirement. If you don't, you're risking every single card in your deck, because falling out of contention to save money will surely cost you Booker as well.

I would bet Bridges would be more coveted than Ayton next summer. Not necessarily that people would pay him more than people would pay Ayton, but that every team could use a great 3 pt shooter who is a top tier defender, elite finisher and basically the perfect teammate with a crazy high bbiq.

There are a lot of good 3 pt shooters (though only 15-20 better than he was last year), and a alot of good defenders, though he ranked 11th in All NBA defense in his 3rd year in the NBA (VERY RARE).

I imagine he will also be doing more creating of his own shot. I didn't mention he is a great passer who very rarely turns it over. He doesn't get to ball handle much but has had 8 assists in a game and sometimes is one of the better guys at getting it to Ayton, etc.

A lot of teams have Centers though. Ayton right now is a solid 1 on 1 defender and a much improving help defender and a finisher who has a few moves offensively, rebounds, screens and contests shots.

A lot of C's do all those things. The main thing he is better at than most...maybe top tier is switching and guarding smaller guys on the perimeter, but a lot of people also think he gets burned too much when this happens and that he isn't great at it (I disagree...he does get burned by crafty quick guards but holds his own against most).

Anyway, tons of teams have very good to great or at least adequate Cs for today's game. Not many teams have a top tier wing defender who can guard the opposition's best player every night as well as be efficient enough while taking the most high quality shots that he had a near 67% TS%. I doubt there are more than a couple of non Cs with a TS% higher.

You might be right. I do find it puzzling that you consider it a mark against Ayton that "most teams have Cs" and " at least adequate Cs" when obviously most teams have at least adequate small forwards as well. You can't exactly slot him in at the 2 due to his lack of ballhandling, though you think he has more in his bag than we've seen. If you were right about that, I wouldn't disagree with you, I don't think. You say Bridges is "elite" in several respects, but Ayton is an elite rebounder and post defender. He is also, like Bridges, a great passer who rarely turns it over - but that's in large part because of the way this team is coached.

I also think it's a little disingenuous to say that Bridges guards the opposing team's top player every night. He can't guard Lebron, and Paul George roasted him in the WCF. The common denominator there is size. He's not one of those super-rare defenders who can guard every position. He can't guard the 4, and I don't recall him guarding traditional point guards last season, either. Among young defenders, I think Thybulle and Dort are better, and Brown and OG are right there with him.

And on the flipside, I think that in a one-on-one, Ayton bests every center in the league other than Embiid, Gobert and Towns. Last year he finally got to the level where he played Gobert essentially even, and with Towns - he wrecks him on both ends one game, then the other, Towns goes off from deep and destroys Ayton: hard to categorize that as a win or a loss. Embiid is the only center who bests him consistently.

Where I come down hard on this question is positional rankings. I think Ayton is, overall, a top-5 center in the league, behind Jokic and Embiid, and jostling for position with Gobert and Towns, ahead of Adebayo (though that is apparently a minority opinion). Is Bridges a top-5 small forward? Obviously not. Tatum, Jaylen Brown, Doncic, Kawhi and Middleton are all very clearly ahead, and then arguably Butler, George, Ingram, Barnes and Anunoby are better as well (I feel I'm being generous in consideration of the advanced stats you are sure to be relying on as a counterpoint). There are also plenty of other young players who could leapfrog him in the near future like Barrett, Hunter, Cam Johnson, Keldon Johnson, maybe even Desmond Bane or Jonathan Isaac if he ever gets healthy. FWIW, I have him solidly ahead of Derozan, as well as Hayward, Warren (obviously, injuries), Ingles, Bojan, Barton and Saddiq Bey, but on any given night, those guys could match or exceed Bridges' impact.

Guys that fit Bridges' profile show up in every draft, though not all of them pan out. Guys that fit Ayton's profile are once every several years (Wiseman was the last, and he's not looked great so far). My point here is that Bridges might not be easily, fully replaceable, but it's not *that* hard to get close.

All that said, I'd still pay Bridges what it takes to keep him around, unless he's asking for the max or near-max as well. My principal concern when it comes to payroll is having to choose between Bridges and Cam Johnson, since I think Cam's ceiling is higher. But at the end of the day, you pay to keep this team together, because it takes money to win in this league. You go big or go home.

While I like to think Ayton is a top 5 C, I think that' a biased look at this point. On the GB (and it's not just the Suns, but every team thinks the GB hates them and underrates their players), he ranked around 10th on avg.

Do you really think he is already on the level of Towns and Gobert for overall impact? Most rank Adebayo ahead. Then you have guys like Sabonis who was an all star an elite at many things..different things, but elite.. Vucevic is very versatile. Capela is very similar to Ayton in many ways but a better rebounder.

I do think he is in the 5-8 range, and firmly will be in the top 6 or 7...and maybe top 5. If he adds to his offensive game like I hope and kind of expect, I would say he would be higher but it just depends on what you need. None will be as good as a rim deterrent as Gobert. Not as good of a #1 option as Embiid, Jokic or Towns on offense. Not nearly the passer that Bam, Jokic, Sabonis and probably Towns are. And then Vucevic is good at passing, 3 pt shooting, rebounding and scoring.

Then you never know where guys like Mobley, Wiseman (who I recall you saying you thought was already better than Ayton, though premature and before Ayton playoffs, but he should take a big step I imagine), Mobley, and I know you are extremely high on Okongwu.

As for Bridges, again, it all comes down to need, and your first list is clearly better, though you are including guys who play SG and PF. Then your second list, I don't agree with anyone but Butler, Ingram and certainly not Barnes.

I don't think any of that last list is even close. You must be very low on Bridges if you think that list and Barnes are better. OG I can say MAYBE is equal and has a little more versatility guarding bigger players.

But Bridges has an 18 net rtg while OG has a 1. Bridges has triple the BPM and VORP, a lot higher WS/48, etc.

Bridges game impact is just underrated and too many people look at PPG.

As for Bridges guarding the best player, I mean within his positional range...1 through small 4s. And of the superstars, no one stops them but he bothers them. He doesn't get picked by coaches/media as 11th in All NBA if he's not respected. It's not like he has a big name that carries him.

A popular discussion amongst fans. There was a similar thread the previous season IIRC, who's the 2nd option behind Booker. The opinions used to be split, now the poll is clearly on DA's side. I still think he has more upside. Last season and playoffs showed he's the anchor on D, take him out and other teams start to abuse you inside. In the offensive order he's been in front of Mikal every season. Just looks harder to replace, especially with CJ already on the roster. That said, keep both.