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Game 14: Phoenix Suns (10-3) @ Dallas Mavericks (9-4) l Wednesday l 10:00pm

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Re: Game 14: Phoenix Suns (10-3) @ Dallas Mavericks (9-4) l Wednesday l 10:00pm 

Post#81 » by Ghost of Kleine » Thu Nov 18, 2021 10:43 pm

lilfishi22 wrote:Our role players get undersold. Outside of Book and CP3, the other guys basically get no love from anyone outside of the Suns media sphere. Occasionally you'll get a Zach Lowe showing love for Bridges and Ayton but you'll be hard pressed to find anyone outside of the Suns media talk about Cam x2, McGee, Shamet or Payton who held it down when Payne was out. These guys are solid, high IQ and skilled basketball players. They aren't the most athletic, they aren't the best shooters and they aren't the best playmakers but they play smart, they play with effort and they make winning plays in the minutes they get.

Then where we have really played well is in the last 5min of games. In the last 5min of the game and when teams are within a 5 point differential we are:

#4 in offensive rating: 139.2 per100
Tied #3 in defensive rating: 78.3 per100
#4 in net rating: 61.0 per100
#2 in AST%: 79.2
#2 in AST/TO: 9.50 (1st is Clippers at 10.0. 3rd is a distant 5.50)
#1 in assist ratio: 25.7
#2 in turnover ratio: 3.9%
#2 in EFG%: 73%
#2 in opponent EFG%: 35.4%
#3 in TS%: 74%
#1 in FTA rate: 0.676
#2 in Win% in the clutch: 6-1 // 86%


This is truly awesome when you can go down the list and see all the statistical categories that we're elite in listed here. It definitely projects us as legitimate championship contenders too, which is exciting. Curious as to whose number #1 in the clutch though?
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Re: Game 14: Phoenix Suns (10-3) @ Dallas Mavericks (9-4) l Wednesday l 10:00pm 

Post#82 » by Barkley6 » Thu Nov 18, 2021 10:56 pm

WeekapaugGroove wrote:
Jdiddy701 wrote:
Mulhollanddrive wrote:I think we're undersold.

2 All Stars and 2 Players likely to be All-Defensive Team at some point, who in the league would have 5 of those?

Then our players 5-8 are above average too.

Our timeouts / challenges are our biggest weakness and that's about 20th in terms of all basketball things to get right.

I think Monty Williams is our most underrated part of our team. He gets the best out of players. I wouldn’t change any coach in league over him. Player want to play with Monty and will do whatever he asks of them. How he’s managed to keep the group tight after all the Sarver news is crazy. Monty is amazing.


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Absolutely. I'd add that Jones deserves some credit for putting the right guys with Monty. I don't think Monty's Ted Lasso crossed with a Baptist Minister style works with everyone. Some would find him corny and tune it out but you get the right guys for him and they'll run through a wall.

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That's where Chris Paul comes in. Because if Chris Paul is bought in, everyone better be bought in, or you're not going to have a good time on this team. Chris lends credibility to Monty in a lot of ways, and now that Monty has taken a team to the FInals, and might win a championship or two in the next couple seasons, he's going to have that pedigree on his own. People will view him as maybe unorthodox, but a winner, so it won't matter.
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Re: Game 14: Phoenix Suns (10-3) @ Dallas Mavericks (9-4) l Wednesday l 10:00pm 

Post#83 » by Barkley6 » Thu Nov 18, 2021 11:07 pm

BobbieL wrote:
WeekapaugGroove wrote:
Barkley6 wrote:
The Mavs shot 41% from 2 and 50% from 3. so while the 3 point numbers are good, it seems like the game plan was to let them live with the jump shot and keep them out of the paint. Which worked.

I think a lot of credit goes to Monty Williams because yes, on paper this team doesn't look like it should be as good as it is. Coaching, chemistry and culture are what makes this team great and that goes to Monty. He's not always perfect, but he gets it right A LOT of the time.
It's because people look at teams from a fantasy basketball perspective but fit and having the right balance of role players is more important than people realize. Hell I see that with suns fans and some of the trade ideas that get thrown around. Just because a guy averages more points than a current suns rotation guy it doesn't mean the team would actually be better if you swapped the players.

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The Suns have a good mix of All Stars, maybe not near all star but a couple VERY GOOD ascending players and finally, good role players. And thats what makes a good team
CP3 and Booker - All Stars
Ayton and Bridges - are the ascending players
the rest are role players

Look at The Wizards - they had Beal - very good player, All star
added Dinwiddie and than traded one player for three role players. But by trading Westbrook, able to add depth to their roster in Harrell, KCP and Kuzma


it's funny how much we kind of operate like those mid 2000s Spurs teams. They had Duncan who was a bona fide All-Star and one of the best at his position, and then Manu and Parker who were very good, but probably not top 30 players in the league at the time, and some good quality veteran role players (Bowen, Finely, Mohammed, Barry, Oberto etc.). A great coach in Pop, and a team philosophy focused on good defense and quality offensive possessions. When you'd look at those teams on paper, it would mostly be like, how are we losing to a bunch of role players? How are guys like Oberto and Bowen killing us? But it was all about the system and how guys played together.

We are similarly constructed, but much much younger, and therefore a lot of our role players (Bridges, CamJo, Shamet, etc.) have a higher ceiling. It's a very exciting time to be a Suns fan.
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Re: Game 14: Phoenix Suns (10-3) @ Dallas Mavericks (9-4) l Wednesday l 10:00pm 

Post#84 » by lilfishi22 » Thu Nov 18, 2021 11:12 pm

Ghost of Kleine wrote:
lilfishi22 wrote:Our role players get undersold. Outside of Book and CP3, the other guys basically get no love from anyone outside of the Suns media sphere. Occasionally you'll get a Zach Lowe showing love for Bridges and Ayton but you'll be hard pressed to find anyone outside of the Suns media talk about Cam x2, McGee, Shamet or Payton who held it down when Payne was out. These guys are solid, high IQ and skilled basketball players. They aren't the most athletic, they aren't the best shooters and they aren't the best playmakers but they play smart, they play with effort and they make winning plays in the minutes they get.

Then where we have really played well is in the last 5min of games. In the last 5min of the game and when teams are within a 5 point differential we are:

#4 in offensive rating: 139.2 per100
Tied #3 in defensive rating: 78.3 per100
#4 in net rating: 61.0 per100
#2 in AST%: 79.2
#2 in AST/TO: 9.50 (1st is Clippers at 10.0. 3rd is a distant 5.50)
#1 in assist ratio: 25.7
#2 in turnover ratio: 3.9%
#2 in EFG%: 73%
#2 in opponent EFG%: 35.4%
#3 in TS%: 74%
#1 in FTA rate: 0.676
#2 in Win% in the clutch: 6-1 // 86%


This is truly awesome when you can go down the list and see all the statistical categories that we're elite in listed here. It definitely projects us as legitimate championship contenders too, which is exciting. Curious as to whose number #1 in the clutch though?

imo THE surprise teams of this season so far: Washington Wizards at 7-0
alamin330 wrote:This draft reminds me of the 2003 draft.
Lebron - Zion, Barrett like Melo, wade like Culver, garland like tj ford, hunter like bosh, white like Barbosa, Clarke like David West. I think this draft is actually going to be deeper though
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Re: Game 14: Phoenix Suns (10-3) @ Dallas Mavericks (9-4) l Wednesday l 10:00pm 

Post#85 » by bwgood77 » Thu Nov 18, 2021 11:32 pm

sundevil1999 wrote:Read this on Dallas Forum (Absinthe). I wonder how much of the league fanbase feels the same way.

"I do not understand the Suns. I didn’t last year and I don’t this year. If you look at their roster make up they have have no business having the record they do. They run essentially a seven to eight man rotation and I would classify two of those players as great and the others as middling to good. I tip my hat to them because what they have works, but it seems like it shouldn’t. The Mavs were shooting above 50% at one point from three point range and the Suns still might win. It defies logic. In most games they’d be down by 20 points."


It depends. I think some of our rival fan teams do. But even early in this thread last night I said "We are using our normal recipe...2-10 from 3, up by 1".

Dallas has been winning with extraordinary offense. We used to win that way a decade ago. Now we can stay in any game due to our defense, and it just keeps us in the game and we need to execute.

Now, it has been weird this season because we were TERRIBLE defending the 3 to start the year. Someone (I think darealjuice) pointed out that they were shooting very good from 3 but awful from 2. That's what is great about having Ayton in there, is that sometimes if teams can't get easy baskets inside the arc they HAVE to be lights out from 3 to beat us.

Mikal makes it tougher to drive too...and McGee a better backup big for the middle for defensive purposes.

But it is funny that a Mavs fan would say they have a middling roster outside of 2 guys. What exactly do the Mavs have that is different or better? Luka is obviously one of the league's best player, but same with them, if you even consider KP still a great player, that is two, and I'd put our next 3-4 best players better than their next best ones...I'd take Ayton, Bridges and the Cams over THJr, Brunson, etc. I like Brunson a lot too and he may be better than Payne, but he may be their 3rd or 4th best player and I certainly don't put him ahead of Ayton or Bridges (even though he was the national player of the year and star of the Villanova championship team Bridges was on).
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Re: Game 14: Phoenix Suns (10-3) @ Dallas Mavericks (9-4) l Wednesday l 10:00pm 

Post#86 » by bwgood77 » Thu Nov 18, 2021 11:33 pm

King4Day wrote:NBA radio saying 'suns under the radar 10 game win streak'. Truer words have never been spoken :)
All because of who we played. But I'm sure all other teams have beaten the weaker teams they have played too


It was already posted in one of the threads that although we have had the easiest schedule, the Warriors have had the second easiest.
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Re: Game 14: Phoenix Suns (10-3) @ Dallas Mavericks (9-4) l Wednesday l 10:00pm 

Post#87 » by bwgood77 » Thu Nov 18, 2021 11:42 pm

sunsbg wrote:Suns have two of the best players in the league (Booker's numbers actually look better than Doncic's so far this season), two of the most efficient role players, deep bench and a chemistry. What's not to like.


Well, to be fair, Booker is having a bad season by his own standards..his #s efficiency wise are among the worst of his career.

But Doncic's efficiency has yes, been even worse...the worst in his career. He does get the rebounds and assists though, averaging 8 of each.

They are clearly both struggling with their scoring efficiency.

I assume that improves for both.

Even though they are among the best players/talents in the NBA, they are both having their worst seasons in 4 years.
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Re: Game 14: Phoenix Suns (10-3) @ Dallas Mavericks (9-4) l Wednesday l 10:00pm 

Post#88 » by sunsbg » Fri Nov 19, 2021 9:33 am

bwgood77 wrote:
sunsbg wrote:Suns have two of the best players in the league (Booker's numbers actually look better than Doncic's so far this season), two of the most efficient role players, deep bench and a chemistry. What's not to like.


Well, to be fair, Booker is having a bad season by his own standards..his #s efficiency wise are among the worst of his career.

But Doncic's efficiency has yes, been even worse...the worst in his career. He does get the rebounds and assists though, averaging 8 of each.

They are clearly both struggling with their scoring efficiency.

I assume that improves for both.

Even though they are among the best players/talents in the NBA, they are both having their worst seasons in 4 years.


Remember arguing with Luka fans in his first seasons that if they allow a tougher defense his numbers will not look so great. Applies for all wings this season. Nobody is scoring more than 30ppg, even Curry while having great season.

Book's assists at 5 are great so far as a secondary playmaker to someone who averages 10apg. 2:1 A/T ratio, same as Luka.
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Re: Game 14: Phoenix Suns (10-3) @ Dallas Mavericks (9-4) l Wednesday l 10:00pm 

Post#89 » by Saberestar » Fri Nov 19, 2021 11:08 am

bwgood77 wrote:
sunsbg wrote:Suns have two of the best players in the league (Booker's numbers actually look better than Doncic's so far this season), two of the most efficient role players, deep bench and a chemistry. What's not to like.


Well, to be fair, Booker is having a bad season by his own standards..his #s efficiency wise are among the worst of his career.

But Doncic's efficiency has yes, been even worse...the worst in his career. He does get the rebounds and assists though, averaging 8 of each.

They are clearly both struggling with their scoring efficiency.

I assume that improves for both.

Even though they are among the best players/talents in the NBA, they are both having their worst seasons in 4 years.

Booker is at his best this season because he is finally a two-way All Star.

This season he has taken another step in the right direction defensively. He has been huge in that regard and he is helping a lot on the boards too with 6.2 rpg.

5.1 assists to 2.6 TOs, when he averaged 4.3 assists to 3.1 TOs last year.

And he is having his best season shooting from three since 2017/18.

37% on 6 attempts per game is great for a player who gets so much attention as him from opposing teams.

So yeah, he is scoring less points per game with "just" 23 and his 2p shooting is not great, but after a slow start he is as good as he has ever been and a more complete player IMO.
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Re: Game 14: Phoenix Suns (10-3) @ Dallas Mavericks (9-4) l Wednesday l 10:00pm 

Post#90 » by bwgood77 » Fri Nov 19, 2021 7:06 pm

sunsbg wrote:
bwgood77 wrote:
sunsbg wrote:Suns have two of the best players in the league (Booker's numbers actually look better than Doncic's so far this season), two of the most efficient role players, deep bench and a chemistry. What's not to like.


Well, to be fair, Booker is having a bad season by his own standards..his #s efficiency wise are among the worst of his career.

But Doncic's efficiency has yes, been even worse...the worst in his career. He does get the rebounds and assists though, averaging 8 of each.

They are clearly both struggling with their scoring efficiency.

I assume that improves for both.

Even though they are among the best players/talents in the NBA, they are both having their worst seasons in 4 years.


Remember arguing with Luka fans in his first seasons that if they allow a tougher defense his numbers will not look so great. Applies for all wings this season. Nobody is scoring more than 30ppg, even Curry while having great season.

Book's assists at 5 are great so far as a secondary playmaker to someone who averages 10apg. 2:1 A/T ratio, same as Luka.


Yeah, Book's ast/to is the best part.

I was purely talking about the scoring efficiency...which has been bad for both...they are still good in other areas of the game and obviously have the ability to hit tough clutch shots at times and get hot. The great thing for their teams is they are both playing well despite this.
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Re: Game 14: Phoenix Suns (10-3) @ Dallas Mavericks (9-4) l Wednesday l 10:00pm 

Post#91 » by bwgood77 » Fri Nov 19, 2021 7:15 pm

Saberestar wrote:
bwgood77 wrote:
sunsbg wrote:Suns have two of the best players in the league (Booker's numbers actually look better than Doncic's so far this season), two of the most efficient role players, deep bench and a chemistry. What's not to like.


Well, to be fair, Booker is having a bad season by his own standards..his #s efficiency wise are among the worst of his career.

But Doncic's efficiency has yes, been even worse...the worst in his career. He does get the rebounds and assists though, averaging 8 of each.

They are clearly both struggling with their scoring efficiency.

I assume that improves for both.

Even though they are among the best players/talents in the NBA, they are both having their worst seasons in 4 years.

Booker is at his best this season because he is finally a two-way All Star.

This season he has taken another step in the right direction defensively. He has been huge in that regard and he is helping a lot on the boards too with 6.2 rpg.

5.1 assists to 2.6 TOs, when he averaged 4.3 assists to 3.1 TOs last year.

And he is having his best season shooting from three since 2017/18.

37% on 6 attempts per game is great for a player who gets so much attention as him from opposing teams.

So yeah, he is scoring less points per game with "just" 23 and his 2p shooting is not great, but after a slow start he is as good as he has ever been and a more complete player IMO.


I thought you'd have a response as much as you like him, but yeah, he has been better in other aspects. It's just that is shooting has sufffered dramatically, though he has done well from 3 the last couple games to get that up a little....and was back over 35% from 3 finally after the TWolves game and at close to 37% from 3 after the last one. All star players get a lot of attention though, and obviously most people shoot 3s when they are open anyway.

So right now, it's a great year from 3 for him so far at 36.9%, his 2nd best year ever. It's just when he really elevated his offensive game was when he went from hovering around 46% from 2 for his first few years, to 54% from 2 for a few years, so he went from avg to elite from mid range taking him to a different tier as as scorer. Now he is at 47%.

As for defense, he's gotten better, but I don't know if I'd go quite as far as calling him a defensive all star.

I think he will be finally voted in as an all star though, given our playoff succeess and how well we are playing again this year, especially with Kawhi out.
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Re: Game 14: Phoenix Suns (10-3) @ Dallas Mavericks (9-4) l Wednesday l 10:00pm 

Post#92 » by Saberestar » Fri Nov 19, 2021 8:33 pm

bwgood77 wrote:
Saberestar wrote:
bwgood77 wrote:
Well, to be fair, Booker is having a bad season by his own standards..his #s efficiency wise are among the worst of his career.

But Doncic's efficiency has yes, been even worse...the worst in his career. He does get the rebounds and assists though, averaging 8 of each.

They are clearly both struggling with their scoring efficiency.

I assume that improves for both.

Even though they are among the best players/talents in the NBA, they are both having their worst seasons in 4 years.

Booker is at his best this season because he is finally a two-way All Star.

This season he has taken another step in the right direction defensively. He has been huge in that regard and he is helping a lot on the boards too with 6.2 rpg.

5.1 assists to 2.6 TOs, when he averaged 4.3 assists to 3.1 TOs last year.

And he is having his best season shooting from three since 2017/18.

37% on 6 attempts per game is great for a player who gets so much attention as him from opposing teams.

So yeah, he is scoring less points per game with "just" 23 and his 2p shooting is not great, but after a slow start he is as good as he has ever been and a more complete player IMO.


I thought you'd have a response as much as you like him, but yeah, he has been better in other aspects. It's just that is shooting has sufffered dramatically, though he has done well from 3 the last couple games to get that up a little....and was back over 35% from 3 finally after the TWolves game and at close to 37% from 3 after the last one. All star players get a lot of attention though, and obviously most people shoot 3s when they are open anyway.

So right now, it's a great year from 3 for him so far at 36.9%, his 2nd best year ever. It's just when he really elevated his offensive game was when he went from hovering around 46% from 2 for his first few years, to 54% from 2 for a few years, so he went from avg to elite from mid range taking him to a different tier as as scorer. Now he is at 47%.

As for defense, he's gotten better, but I don't know if I'd go quite as far as calling him a defensive all star.

I think he will be finally voted in as an all star though, given our playoff succeess and how well we are playing again this year, especially with Kawhi out.

He is already a perennial All Star, no doubt that he will be there again this season and probably the next 7-8 years in a row.

I wouldn't call him a defensive All Star, I would say he is now a two-way player. He has been pretty good on defense so far this season.
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Re: Game 14: Phoenix Suns (10-3) @ Dallas Mavericks (9-4) l Wednesday l 10:00pm 

Post#93 » by oddity » Fri Nov 19, 2021 9:51 pm

Booker has been great bc he is willing to get others involved or decide to take over during key moments of the game, depending on what's more appropriate. His leadership is what has improved, and it doesn't show up in any of the shooting stats really. I think his shooting will come along, but Booker has always developed by expanding his game first at the expense of his efficiency, only to later enter a phase of perfecting those little wrinkles he adds to his game and shoring up his efficiency. He's been doing this every season since he was drafted, so I expect him to address those efficiency concerns to the point where it isn't a problem towards the end of the season like he has always done.

The Suns have such a balanced attack this year. I mean Cam Johnson is our 10th leading scorer averaging 7.1 a game. Compare that to other contenders 10th guys and none of them have someone who can contribute half as much. Partially this is because of how deep this team is, but it is mostly because of the excellent coaching and leadership between CP3 Monty and Book. If Book was a selfish player that hunts for his own shots too much as I see some casual fans mislabel him, this dynamic wouldn't be possible. Averaging 5 APG over 23 PPG is the most pass-favoring scoring to assisting ratio I've seen from Book and is a testament to how far he has come as a leader willing to make personal sacrifices for the good of a balanced offense.
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Re: Game 14: Phoenix Suns (10-3) @ Dallas Mavericks (9-4) l Wednesday l 10:00pm 

Post#94 » by bwgood77 » Sat Nov 20, 2021 2:17 am

oddity wrote:Booker has been great bc he is willing to get others involved or decide to take over during key moments of the game, depending on what's more appropriate. His leadership is what has improved, and it doesn't show up in any of the shooting stats really. I think his shooting will come along, but Booker has always developed by expanding his game first at the expense of his efficiency, only to later enter a phase of perfecting those little wrinkles he adds to his game and shoring up his efficiency. He's been doing this every season since he was drafted, so I expect him to address those efficiency concerns to the point where it isn't a problem towards the end of the season like he has always done.

The Suns have such a balanced attack this year. I mean Cam Johnson is our 10th leading scorer averaging 7.1 a game. Compare that to other contenders 10th guys and none of them have someone who can contribute half as much. Partially this is because of how deep this team is, but it is mostly because of the excellent coaching and leadership between CP3 Monty and Book. If Book was a selfish player that hunts for his own shots too much as I see some casual fans mislabel him, this dynamic wouldn't be possible. Averaging 5 APG over 23 PPG is the most pass-favoring scoring to assisting ratio I've seen from Book and is a testament to how far he has come as a leader willing to make personal sacrifices for the good of a balanced offense.


I agree with this. I think those intangibles are another big improvement and he had really become more of a team player. He didn't end up with any assists in the last one, but he's been doing better there without increasing turnovers.

Sometimes I have felt he takes too many shots and the distribution can be better but often the dstribution has been pretty good as of late.

His last 3 games have been great. I was a bit concerned before that because I'd see like 17 or 18 points on 17 shots or 12 points on 15 shots with a lot of turnovers. He had a run of games in the middle of our 13 games of about 7 games averaging about 4 turnovers a game. But prior to that he had a couple zero turnover games and only a total of 2 turnovers the last 3.

So I think part of it to start the season is just inconsistency.
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Re: Game 14: Phoenix Suns (10-3) @ Dallas Mavericks (9-4) l Wednesday l 10:00pm 

Post#95 » by bwgood77 » Sat Nov 20, 2021 7:00 pm

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