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Game 17: Phoenix Suns (13-3) @ San Antonio Spurs (4-11), Monday, 6:30PM

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Re: Game 17: Phoenix Suns (13-3) @ San Antonio Spurs (4-11), Monday, 6:30PM 

Post#101 » by King4Day » Tue Nov 23, 2021 2:55 pm

Are people really nitpicking DA's game right now?
He's getting his double double without thinking. I feel like he's making micro-improvements where, as fans who watch him every day, it's hard to notice, but when you only watch him once every couple months or once a year, you can see those changes.

- His pick and roll cuts are improving. In years past, he'd set a screen and just stand there. He has lapses sometimes, but he does move quicker. He's also rolling to where he gets deep position in the event the ball didn't get passed to him.
- His paint position looks better on clear-outs when the ball comes to him. He used to be 20ft out, turn and fadeaway. Now he's much closer and makes quick decisions. Isn't always shooting it inside.
- His finishing is insanely underrated. He makes little layups and put backs that I still think he'll miss, but he doesn't.
- He's not bringing the ball down as much anymore, where he'll get stripped.
- He's making proper reads and not getting lost in the offense when the ball comes his way.
- Maybe the most promising thing is that he has had 2 or 3 times this season where the ball comes to him and he puts the ball down and drives hard to the rim. If he can improve on that, he will be unstoppable

To boot, the guy is 23 years old....23 and won't be 24 until July. Not even close to his prime yet.
Imagine him 3 years from now with more seasoning?
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Re: Game 17: Phoenix Suns (13-3) @ San Antonio Spurs (4-11), Monday, 6:30PM 

Post#102 » by bhawk » Tue Nov 23, 2021 3:04 pm

King4Day wrote:Are people really nitpicking DA's game right now?
He's getting his double double without thinking. I feel like he's making micro-improvements where, as fans who watch him every day, it's hard to notice, but when you only watch him once every couple months or once a year, you can see those changes.

- His pick and roll cuts are improving. In years past, he'd set a screen and just stand there. He has lapses sometimes, but he does move quicker. He's also rolling to where he gets deep position in the event the ball didn't get passed to him.
- His paint position looks better on clear-outs when the ball comes to him. He used to be 20ft out, turn and fadeaway. Now he's much closer and makes quick decisions. Isn't always shooting it inside.
- His finishing is insanely underrated. He makes little layups and put backs that I still think he'll miss, but he doesn't.
- He's not bringing the ball down as much anymore, where he'll get stripped.
- He's making proper reads and not getting lost in the offense when the ball comes his way.
- Maybe the most promising thing is that he has had 2 or 3 times this season where the ball comes to him and he puts the ball down and drives hard to the rim. If he can improve on that, he will be unstoppable

To boot, the guy is 23 years old....23 and won't be 24 until July. Not even close to his prime yet.
Imagine him 3 years from now with more seasoning?


I'll chime in. If you watched the game, Ayton played poorly and was outplayed by his back-up. Pretty simple. Ayton should play better if he wants that max contract. No doubt Ayton is good, but he could be so much better. He needs to play with more heart, passion and fire. I felt like I was watching rookie Ayton last night.
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Re: Game 17: Phoenix Suns (13-3) @ San Antonio Spurs (4-11), Monday, 6:30PM 

Post#103 » by King4Day » Tue Nov 23, 2021 3:37 pm

bhawk wrote:
King4Day wrote:Are people really nitpicking DA's game right now?
He's getting his double double without thinking. I feel like he's making micro-improvements where, as fans who watch him every day, it's hard to notice, but when you only watch him once every couple months or once a year, you can see those changes.

- His pick and roll cuts are improving. In years past, he'd set a screen and just stand there. He has lapses sometimes, but he does move quicker. He's also rolling to where he gets deep position in the event the ball didn't get passed to him.
- His paint position looks better on clear-outs when the ball comes to him. He used to be 20ft out, turn and fadeaway. Now he's much closer and makes quick decisions. Isn't always shooting it inside.
- His finishing is insanely underrated. He makes little layups and put backs that I still think he'll miss, but he doesn't.
- He's not bringing the ball down as much anymore, where he'll get stripped.
- He's making proper reads and not getting lost in the offense when the ball comes his way.
- Maybe the most promising thing is that he has had 2 or 3 times this season where the ball comes to him and he puts the ball down and drives hard to the rim. If he can improve on that, he will be unstoppable

To boot, the guy is 23 years old....23 and won't be 24 until July. Not even close to his prime yet.
Imagine him 3 years from now with more seasoning?


I'll chime in. If you watched the game, Ayton played poorly and was outplayed by his back-up. Pretty simple. Ayton should play better if he wants that max contract. No doubt Ayton is good, but he could be so much better. He needs to play with more heart, passion and fire. I felt like I was watching rookie Ayton last night.


He's 23 and taking baby steps. If we weren't title contenders I think everyone would be happy with his progress. Instead we want him to be elite this second.
He had energy yesterday. It's not all his fault. Things lead to other things. There were times when their bigs got the best of him, but it wasn't all on him. A driving guard forcing DA to pull off his man, even by a step, can be enough to allow that DA's man to score on him. I saw that a few times yesterday.

I feel like, if DA is offered a max elsewhere, and we let him walk (even if we get someone like Holmes back in a sign/trade), we'll quickly see how bad we miss him and how much the team has regressed back to non-title contenders.


Still, DA was far from our problem yesterday. Our guards were sloppy with the ball.
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Re: Game 17: Phoenix Suns (13-3) @ San Antonio Spurs (4-11), Monday, 6:30PM 

Post#104 » by Slim Charless » Tue Nov 23, 2021 6:31 pm

King4Day wrote:
bhawk wrote:
King4Day wrote:Are people really nitpicking DA's game right now?
He's getting his double double without thinking. I feel like he's making micro-improvements where, as fans who watch him every day, it's hard to notice, but when you only watch him once every couple months or once a year, you can see those changes.

- His pick and roll cuts are improving. In years past, he'd set a screen and just stand there. He has lapses sometimes, but he does move quicker. He's also rolling to where he gets deep position in the event the ball didn't get passed to him.
- His paint position looks better on clear-outs when the ball comes to him. He used to be 20ft out, turn and fadeaway. Now he's much closer and makes quick decisions. Isn't always shooting it inside.
- His finishing is insanely underrated. He makes little layups and put backs that I still think he'll miss, but he doesn't.
- He's not bringing the ball down as much anymore, where he'll get stripped.
- He's making proper reads and not getting lost in the offense when the ball comes his way.
- Maybe the most promising thing is that he has had 2 or 3 times this season where the ball comes to him and he puts the ball down and drives hard to the rim. If he can improve on that, he will be unstoppable

To boot, the guy is 23 years old....23 and won't be 24 until July. Not even close to his prime yet.
Imagine him 3 years from now with more seasoning?


I'll chime in. If you watched the game, Ayton played poorly and was outplayed by his back-up. Pretty simple. Ayton should play better if he wants that max contract. No doubt Ayton is good, but he could be so much better. He needs to play with more heart, passion and fire. I felt like I was watching rookie Ayton last night.


He's 23 and taking baby steps. If we weren't title contenders I think everyone would be happy with his progress. Instead we want him to be elite this second.
He had energy yesterday. It's not all his fault. Things lead to other things. There were times when their bigs got the best of him, but it wasn't all on him. A driving guard forcing DA to pull off his man, even by a step, can be enough to allow that DA's man to score on him. I saw that a few times yesterday.

I feel like, if DA is offered a max elsewhere, and we let him walk (even if we get someone like Holmes back in a sign/trade), we'll quickly see how bad we miss him and how much the team has regressed back to non-title contenders.


Still, DA was far from our problem yesterday. Our guards were sloppy with the ball.


I would say the answer to alot of ppl nitpicking is even easier than that. In any other year everyone here (even Frank Lee) would love Ayton. Unfortunately, he happened to be in the same draft as Luka. Not his fault.

Despite what I said earlier about DA I still think his game has grown leaps and bounds. He can still score-I maintain that this team is best with a 1a 1b thing for our scoring between Ayton and Booker. Our problem is PF-and I want Crowder to stay but off the bench.

There's a thread that GoK started in the trade forum about Jonathan Isaac. I'd love to look into him come this summer, or MAYBE the trade deadline if we can get him cheap enough. Healthy, he's the perfect 4 for this team and take some defensive pressure off DA, which allows him to score more. Chris, at this point needs to be the 3rd option, orchestrating and picking his shots here and there.
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Re: Game 17: Phoenix Suns (13-3) @ San Antonio Spurs (4-11), Monday, 6:30PM 

Post#105 » by King4Day » Tue Nov 23, 2021 7:02 pm

Slim Charless wrote:
King4Day wrote:
bhawk wrote:
I'll chime in. If you watched the game, Ayton played poorly and was outplayed by his back-up. Pretty simple. Ayton should play better if he wants that max contract. No doubt Ayton is good, but he could be so much better. He needs to play with more heart, passion and fire. I felt like I was watching rookie Ayton last night.


He's 23 and taking baby steps. If we weren't title contenders I think everyone would be happy with his progress. Instead we want him to be elite this second.
He had energy yesterday. It's not all his fault. Things lead to other things. There were times when their bigs got the best of him, but it wasn't all on him. A driving guard forcing DA to pull off his man, even by a step, can be enough to allow that DA's man to score on him. I saw that a few times yesterday.

I feel like, if DA is offered a max elsewhere, and we let him walk (even if we get someone like Holmes back in a sign/trade), we'll quickly see how bad we miss him and how much the team has regressed back to non-title contenders.


Still, DA was far from our problem yesterday. Our guards were sloppy with the ball.


I would say the answer to alot of ppl nitpicking is even easier than that. In any other year everyone here (even Frank Lee) would love Ayton. Unfortunately, he happened to be in the same draft as Luka. Not his fault.

Despite what I said earlier about DA I still think his game has grown leaps and bounds. He can still score-I maintain that this team is best with a 1a 1b thing for our scoring between Ayton and Booker. Our problem is PF-and I want Crowder to stay but off the bench.

There's a thread that GoK started in the trade forum about Jonathan Isaac. I'd love to look into him come this summer, or MAYBE the trade deadline if we can get him cheap enough. Healthy, he's the perfect 4 for this team and take some defensive pressure off DA, which allows him to score more. Chris, at this point needs to be the 3rd option, orchestrating and picking his shots here and there.


I haven't followed Isaac so I'm not sure how he's done since returning from the injury (assuming he has). Regardless, I don't think he'd be cheap.

As for the Luka draft, I think our team would be completely different if we did take him. I just don't get the feeling he and Booker would have vibed well. And we never would have traded for Paul. If anything, we might have dealt Booker. The path this team would be on right now would almost certainly be drastically different.
Ayton fits this team like a glove. Maybe a few years from now we're regretting it again, but for now, we're in good shape. And as I felt last season, if we can snag a ring out of all this, it won't matter what Luka or Trae does for the rest of their careers.

Nothing is a gimme anyway. Maybe we draft Luka or Trae and both leave after 8 seasons of mediocrity.
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Re: Game 17: Phoenix Suns (13-3) @ San Antonio Spurs (4-11), Monday, 6:30PM 

Post#106 » by Slim Charless » Tue Nov 23, 2021 7:14 pm

King4Day wrote:
Slim Charless wrote:
King4Day wrote:
He's 23 and taking baby steps. If we weren't title contenders I think everyone would be happy with his progress. Instead we want him to be elite this second.
He had energy yesterday. It's not all his fault. Things lead to other things. There were times when their bigs got the best of him, but it wasn't all on him. A driving guard forcing DA to pull off his man, even by a step, can be enough to allow that DA's man to score on him. I saw that a few times yesterday.

I feel like, if DA is offered a max elsewhere, and we let him walk (even if we get someone like Holmes back in a sign/trade), we'll quickly see how bad we miss him and how much the team has regressed back to non-title contenders.


Still, DA was far from our problem yesterday. Our guards were sloppy with the ball.


I would say the answer to alot of ppl nitpicking is even easier than that. In any other year everyone here (even Frank Lee) would love Ayton. Unfortunately, he happened to be in the same draft as Luka. Not his fault.

Despite what I said earlier about DA I still think his game has grown leaps and bounds. He can still score-I maintain that this team is best with a 1a 1b thing for our scoring between Ayton and Booker. Our problem is PF-and I want Crowder to stay but off the bench.

There's a thread that GoK started in the trade forum about Jonathan Isaac. I'd love to look into him come this summer, or MAYBE the trade deadline if we can get him cheap enough. Healthy, he's the perfect 4 for this team and take some defensive pressure off DA, which allows him to score more. Chris, at this point needs to be the 3rd option, orchestrating and picking his shots here and there.


I haven't followed Isaac so I'm not sure how he's done since returning from the injury (assuming he has). Regardless, I don't think he'd be cheap.

As for the Luka draft, I think our team would be completely different if we did take him. I just don't get the feeling he and Booker would have vibed well. And we never would have traded for Paul. If anything, we might have dealt Booker. The path this team would be on right now would almost certainly be drastically different.
Ayton fits this team like a glove. Maybe a few years from now we're regretting it again, but for now, we're in good shape. And as I felt last season, if we can snag a ring out of all this, it won't matter what Luka or Trae does for the rest of their careers.

Nothing is a gimme anyway. Maybe we draft Luka or Trae and both leave after 8 seasons of mediocrity.


Actually, Issac hasn't returned. Part of the reason why he'd be cheap(er). You see him play for a cpl months and if he looks good, you make an offer.

As to the rest of your post, I agree and am fine with Ayton. Luka is Luka but I think it's getting closer between DA and Trae. Alot of teams might take Ayton over Young still. You're also right about CP3, we would not have him if we had Luka-who has proven to be prickly. I'm not 100% sure him and Booker would've worked out.
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Re: Game 17: Phoenix Suns (13-3) @ San Antonio Spurs (4-11), Monday, 6:30PM 

Post#107 » by bwgood77 » Tue Nov 23, 2021 7:19 pm

sunsbg wrote:
Bogyo wrote:
Slim Charless wrote:
Na. I'm fine with him especially in comparison to a few other posters here lol. I like how he played tonight for the most part. I'm not gonna nitpick about 21/14....with 5 offensive rebounds. He can quietly do that all season right on his way to 2nd team all NBA :nod:


My feelings about DA are about the same as DA's feelings about playing compeitive basketball. I'm good, content with it, but far from estatic or putting in 100%.
Is he gonna be an allstar a couple times? For sure! All-NBA? Most likely. Could he be a lot better than that if he really tried and had the mindset? Absolutley. It is what it is.
About that no dunk - dude has like a 45 inch vertical... tell me about bad positioning or whatever, I'll tell you about lack of effort to jump. All day, every day, any damn day, on any random play. But I've gotten used to it by now, and his overall play, impact and stats are good. I just don't really care for the guy for the above reasons (that have been beaten to death... twice over).


DA is as important as anyone on the team for current and last playoffs success. I guess you would not care for a co-worker doing his job quietly either. Wonder how many of the critics are putting any more effort in their jobs than Ayton, who's doing just fine, except not dunking every ball I guess.


I don't get the "not trying" part. I mean sometimes he is obviously tired and other times he sees a teammate is getting a rebound and doesn't take it, and he may try to lay in rather than dunk, but I don't know that it is actively not trying. He plays a ton of minutes as a big and does get tired.

I mean it's not anything like Booker not trying the least on defense for like 5 years. I know there were excuses made about using a lot on offense, or not on a good team or probably a long list, but he still uses a lot on offense now and tries at least half the time on defense.

Ayton has to move more than most any player as a starter outside of maybe Paul and Booker on offense as he is constantly moving to screen while others are floor spreading (and usually one of Book or Paul). And then on D he switches and chases smaller guys often.

It makes sense he gets tired and isn't "lazy" or "not putting in effort". He puts in a ton of effort why he is our one player constantly showing up in nba.com's hustle stats in multiple categories.
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Re: Game 17: Phoenix Suns (13-3) @ San Antonio Spurs (4-11), Monday, 6:30PM 

Post#108 » by bwgood77 » Tue Nov 23, 2021 7:23 pm

Saberestar wrote:
Bogyo wrote:
Slim Charless wrote:
Na. I'm fine with him especially in comparison to a few other posters here lol. I like how he played tonight for the most part. I'm not gonna nitpick about 21/14....with 5 offensive rebounds. He can quietly do that all season right on his way to 2nd team all NBA :nod:


My feelings about DA are about the same as DA's feelings about playing compeitive basketball. I'm good, content with it, but far from estatic or putting in 100%.
Is he gonna be an allstar a couple times? For sure! All-NBA? Most likely. Could he be a lot better than that if he really tried and had the mindset? Absolutley. It is what it is.
About that no dunk - dude has like a 45 inch vertical... tell me about bad positioning or whatever, I'll tell you about lack of effort to jump. All day, every day, any damn day, on any random play. But I've gotten used to it by now, and his overall play, impact and stats are good. I just don't really care for the guy for the above reasons (that have been beaten to death... twice over).

How many coordinated 6'11 guys has already seen this league that haven't been as good as Ayton is? Do you remember Kwame Brown? Alex Len? The list is ridiculously long...is not easy to be as good as Ayton is without hard working.

I get that people want him to be the greatest C ever to play the game, it's great to be ambitious and all of that, but some gratitude and appreciation for how great he is at just 23 years old would be nice too.

He didn't score an easy bucket at the rim in this game, yeah, it is true, but he scored on every other chance that he had around the paint. Every player makes a mistake here or there...EVERYONE. His touch around the rim is nice and that allows him to finish without fouling or getting hit and that is huge for an starting big man because of fouls trouble and durability.

What I am trying to say is that Ayton has played two consecutive fantastic games on a back-to-back, scoring 21 points in each of them with very good efficiency and a lot of good defense and rebounding...but we are here just talking about one specific play.

He is not a perfect player but neither is Book, CP3 or Mikal, but I think they don't get criticized as much as Ayton because they are not physical specimens.

Personally I am really happy with Ayton's performance so far this season. He is slightly better than last year, so that means he keeps improving and you know what you are getting from him game in and game out. His floor has raised and he is way more consistent than a year ago...not spectacular but consistent.


Very good post. It is very strange that he can play a great game and because he tries to lay in instead of dunk on one play where he didn't have great positioning and had two guys there, he gets bashed at the end of the game by multiple people. Despite not dunking he is still one of the more efficient Cs in the game who scores that much. Particularly if you take out guys that can only score inside 2 or 3 feet...like a Capela or Mitch Robinson or Gobert who may dunk more but can't do anything else offensively.
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Re: Game 17: Phoenix Suns (13-3) @ San Antonio Spurs (4-11), Monday, 6:30PM 

Post#109 » by bwgood77 » Tue Nov 23, 2021 7:25 pm

bigfoot wrote:
Saberestar wrote:
Bogyo wrote:
My feelings about DA are about the same as DA's feelings about playing compeitive basketball. I'm good, content with it, but far from estatic or putting in 100%.
Is he gonna be an allstar a couple times? For sure! All-NBA? Most likely. Could he be a lot better than that if he really tried and had the mindset? Absolutley. It is what it is.
About that no dunk - dude has like a 45 inch vertical... tell me about bad positioning or whatever, I'll tell you about lack of effort to jump. All day, every day, any damn day, on any random play. But I've gotten used to it by now, and his overall play, impact and stats are good. I just don't really care for the guy for the above reasons (that have been beaten to death... twice over).

How many coordinated 6'11 guys has already seen this league that haven't been as good as Ayton is? Do you remember Kwame Brown? Alex Len? The list is ridiculously long...is not easy to be as good as Ayton is without hard working.

I get that people want him to be the greatest C ever to play the game, it's great to be ambitious and all of that, but some gratitude and appreciation for how great he is at just 23 years old would be nice too.

He didn't score an easy bucket at the rim in this game, yeah, it is true, but he scored on every other chance that he had around the paint. Every player makes a mistake here or there...EVERYONE. His touch around the rim is nice and that allows him to finish without fouling or getting hit and that is huge for an starting big man because of fouls trouble and durability.

What I am trying to say is that Ayton has played two consecutive fantastic games on a back-to-back, scoring 21 points in each of them with very good efficiency and a lot of good defense and rebounding...but we are here just talking about one specific play.

He is not a perfect player but neither is Book, CP3 or Mikal, but I think they don't get criticized as much as Ayton because they are not physical specimens.

Personally I am really happy with Ayton's performance so far this season. He is slightly better than last year, so that means he keeps improving and you know what you are getting from him game in and game out. His floor has raised and he is way more consistent than a year ago...not spectacular but consistent.


Make sure to take a look at player stats for the Suns on nba.com. DA has some of the worst on the team for non-traditional stats. Sure his traditional stats look good but when you start looking at all the other little things, he darn near has the worst numbers in most of them. Certainly bottom of the team for many. For example, opponent FG% when he is on the court or opponent +/- or opponent 3pt %. Really his defense has been meh so far this season and the numbers back it up.


This is mostly due to us playing crap opponents when he was out and blowing them out so every other player's stats are inflated based on the small sample size. Use proper context, think about it, and watch the games before blindly relying on these things.
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Re: Game 17: Phoenix Suns (13-3) @ San Antonio Spurs (4-11), Monday, 6:30PM 

Post#110 » by bwgood77 » Tue Nov 23, 2021 7:26 pm

King4Day wrote:Are people really nitpicking DA's game right now?
He's getting his double double without thinking. I feel like he's making micro-improvements where, as fans who watch him every day, it's hard to notice, but when you only watch him once every couple months or once a year, you can see those changes.

- His pick and roll cuts are improving. In years past, he'd set a screen and just stand there. He has lapses sometimes, but he does move quicker. He's also rolling to where he gets deep position in the event the ball didn't get passed to him.
- His paint position looks better on clear-outs when the ball comes to him. He used to be 20ft out, turn and fadeaway. Now he's much closer and makes quick decisions. Isn't always shooting it inside.
- His finishing is insanely underrated. He makes little layups and put backs that I still think he'll miss, but he doesn't.
- He's not bringing the ball down as much anymore, where he'll get stripped.
- He's making proper reads and not getting lost in the offense when the ball comes his way.
- Maybe the most promising thing is that he has had 2 or 3 times this season where the ball comes to him and he puts the ball down and drives hard to the rim. If he can improve on that, he will be unstoppable

To boot, the guy is 23 years old....23 and won't be 24 until July. Not even close to his prime yet.
Imagine him 3 years from now with more seasoning?


A lot of great points as well.
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Re: Game 17: Phoenix Suns (13-3) @ San Antonio Spurs (4-11), Monday, 6:30PM 

Post#111 » by bwgood77 » Tue Nov 23, 2021 7:29 pm

bhawk wrote:
King4Day wrote:Are people really nitpicking DA's game right now?
He's getting his double double without thinking. I feel like he's making micro-improvements where, as fans who watch him every day, it's hard to notice, but when you only watch him once every couple months or once a year, you can see those changes.

- His pick and roll cuts are improving. In years past, he'd set a screen and just stand there. He has lapses sometimes, but he does move quicker. He's also rolling to where he gets deep position in the event the ball didn't get passed to him.
- His paint position looks better on clear-outs when the ball comes to him. He used to be 20ft out, turn and fadeaway. Now he's much closer and makes quick decisions. Isn't always shooting it inside.
- His finishing is insanely underrated. He makes little layups and put backs that I still think he'll miss, but he doesn't.
- He's not bringing the ball down as much anymore, where he'll get stripped.
- He's making proper reads and not getting lost in the offense when the ball comes his way.
- Maybe the most promising thing is that he has had 2 or 3 times this season where the ball comes to him and he puts the ball down and drives hard to the rim. If he can improve on that, he will be unstoppable

To boot, the guy is 23 years old....23 and won't be 24 until July. Not even close to his prime yet.
Imagine him 3 years from now with more seasoning?


I'll chime in. If you watched the game, Ayton played poorly and was outplayed by his back-up. Pretty simple. Ayton should play better if he wants that max contract. No doubt Ayton is good, but he could be so much better. He needs to play with more heart, passion and fire. I felt like I was watching rookie Ayton last night.


I know many seem to ignore turnovers, but McGee is sloppy with the ball. He had 4 turnovers in 15 minutes while Ayton had 2 in 33. If Ayton had some of those McGee turnovers we wouldn't hear the end of it.

These high energy bench guys have it easier. I don't think you understand with a comment like this how different it is playing 33 minutes instead of 15. Playing 8 minutes straight at full court professional basketball as a 7 footer is a lot different than playing less than 4 minutes at a time (usually with a qtr break halfway between those 4 minutes).

All this coming off a lay off with a leg injury that makes it hard to keep conditioning up.
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Re: Game 17: Phoenix Suns (13-3) @ San Antonio Spurs (4-11), Monday, 6:30PM 

Post#112 » by sunsbg » Tue Nov 23, 2021 7:33 pm

While we are at DA vs Luka again it's not like he doesn't get criticism. Just shows there are no perfect players.

https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=2140701#p94988022

His conditioning is pretty bad for a 22yo, who knows what he looks like at 27, much less at 33. Maybe there were red flags about that even at draft time and someone like Divac with inside sources decided to pass on him for this reason.
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Re: Game 17: Phoenix Suns (13-3) @ San Antonio Spurs (4-11), Monday, 6:30PM 

Post#113 » by bigfoot » Tue Nov 23, 2021 7:44 pm

bwgood77 wrote:
bigfoot wrote:
Saberestar wrote:How many coordinated 6'11 guys has already seen this league that haven't been as good as Ayton is? Do you remember Kwame Brown? Alex Len? The list is ridiculously long...is not easy to be as good as Ayton is without hard working.

I get that people want him to be the greatest C ever to play the game, it's great to be ambitious and all of that, but some gratitude and appreciation for how great he is at just 23 years old would be nice too.

He didn't score an easy bucket at the rim in this game, yeah, it is true, but he scored on every other chance that he had around the paint. Every player makes a mistake here or there...EVERYONE. His touch around the rim is nice and that allows him to finish without fouling or getting hit and that is huge for an starting big man because of fouls trouble and durability.

What I am trying to say is that Ayton has played two consecutive fantastic games on a back-to-back, scoring 21 points in each of them with very good efficiency and a lot of good defense and rebounding...but we are here just talking about one specific play.

He is not a perfect player but neither is Book, CP3 or Mikal, but I think they don't get criticized as much as Ayton because they are not physical specimens.

Personally I am really happy with Ayton's performance so far this season. He is slightly better than last year, so that means he keeps improving and you know what you are getting from him game in and game out. His floor has raised and he is way more consistent than a year ago...not spectacular but consistent.


Make sure to take a look at player stats for the Suns on nba.com. DA has some of the worst on the team for non-traditional stats. Sure his traditional stats look good but when you start looking at all the other little things, he darn near has the worst numbers in most of them. Certainly bottom of the team for many. For example, opponent FG% when he is on the court or opponent +/- or opponent 3pt %. Really his defense has been meh so far this season and the numbers back it up.


This is mostly due to us playing crap opponents when he was out and blowing them out so every other player's stats are inflated based on the small sample size. Use proper context, think about it, and watch the games before blindly relying on these things.


We are approaching the 1/4 of the season mark so the stats are what they are.

I've watched plenty of games this season and Ayton is not nearly as good on defense as he was during the playoffs.

Blowing out teams when he was out needs to be compared to squeaking by against teams without their best players and Ayton playing. Since he has been back for five games Suns have played Mavs without Donic twice, Nuggets without Jokic, and Western conference cellar dwellers in the Wolves and Spurs. Most of them were close games.

Finally, when Booker says to Ayton during the game that he's been waiting for three years for DA to drive hard to the bucket with the ball it really comes as no suprise. The fans have been waiting too.

Read on Twitter


Read on Twitter


Again Ayton is all talk right now. We'll see how many times he drives hard to the basket with the ball over the next ten games.
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Re: Game 17: Phoenix Suns (13-3) @ San Antonio Spurs (4-11), Monday, 6:30PM 

Post#114 » by sunsbg » Tue Nov 23, 2021 7:47 pm

bwgood77 wrote:
I don't get the "not trying" part. I mean sometimes he is obviously tired and other times he sees a teammate is getting a rebound and doesn't take it, and he may try to lay in rather than dunk, but I don't know that it is actively not trying. He plays a ton of minutes as a big and does get tired.

I mean it's not anything like Booker not trying the least on defense for like 5 years. I know there were excuses made about using a lot on offense, or not on a good team or probably a long list, but he still uses a lot on offense now and tries at least half the time on defense.

Ayton has to move more than most any player as a starter outside of maybe Paul and Booker on offense as he is constantly moving to screen while others are floor spreading (and usually one of Book or Paul). And then on D he switches and chases smaller guys often.

It makes sense he gets tired and isn't "lazy" or "not putting in effort". He puts in a ton of effort why he is our one player constantly showing up in nba.com's hustle stats in multiple categories.


Yeah, as I said in the Min game thread you can't just look at PPG when comparing DA and KAT. One is setting multiple screens in a possession while the other 5 screens in total for the game. Setting screens, catching lobs, defending wings on the perimeter - all requires energy. I wouldn't hold it against him for trying to preserve his body. We all know what happened to Amare.
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Re: Game 17: Phoenix Suns (13-3) @ San Antonio Spurs (4-11), Monday, 6:30PM 

Post#115 » by bwgood77 » Tue Nov 23, 2021 7:51 pm

bigfoot wrote:
bwgood77 wrote:
bigfoot wrote:
Make sure to take a look at player stats for the Suns on nba.com. DA has some of the worst on the team for non-traditional stats. Sure his traditional stats look good but when you start looking at all the other little things, he darn near has the worst numbers in most of them. Certainly bottom of the team for many. For example, opponent FG% when he is on the court or opponent +/- or opponent 3pt %. Really his defense has been meh so far this season and the numbers back it up.


This is mostly due to us playing crap opponents when he was out and blowing them out so every other player's stats are inflated based on the small sample size. Use proper context, think about it, and watch the games before blindly relying on these things.


We are approaching the 1/4 of the season mark so the stats are what they are.

I've watched plenty of games this season and Ayton is not nearly as good on defense as he was during the playoffs.


I agree he was better during the playoffs, but despite us being 20% through the season, he has only played in 11 of them, and had a leg injury which kept him out long enough to hurt conditioning.

I know you will be hard on him forever, and it's a bit ridiculous...not sure why I reply on occasion, but it's early. Others have played worse, especially by their standards.

I've been wanting him to drive more too. There are things I want him to improve and I was very hard on him as a rookie but he's improved FAR more than I would have expected and he's still a ripe 23.

As for your clip, people could say to Book "I've been waiting for 6 years for you to improve your 3 pt shooting/stop turning it over so much/start playing defense, etc"

Guys improve over time at things they need to if they work, and he obviously does.

I remember a quote Book said recently about Bridges saying "we get on him all the time about that" and I thought if that quote came out about Ayton it would be taken a lot differently by a handful of fans.
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Re: Game 17: Phoenix Suns (13-3) @ San Antonio Spurs (4-11), Monday, 6:30PM 

Post#116 » by MrMiyagi » Tue Nov 23, 2021 8:03 pm

We could be 81-0 going into our last game and guys around here would still be trashing DA, ffs.
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Re: Game 17: Phoenix Suns (13-3) @ San Antonio Spurs (4-11), Monday, 6:30PM 

Post#117 » by sunsbg » Tue Nov 23, 2021 8:04 pm

Haha Mikal is untouchable compared to DA. Imagine the comments in this thread if Deandre scored his first basket in the game with 5 mins left.
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Re: Game 17: Phoenix Suns (13-3) @ San Antonio Spurs (4-11), Monday, 6:30PM 

Post#118 » by MrMiyagi » Tue Nov 23, 2021 8:10 pm

sunsbg wrote:Haha Mikal is untouchable compared to DA. Imagine the comments in this thread if Deandre scored his first basket in the game with 5 mins left.
Jonathan Isaac is held in higher esteem than DA around these parts, and that dude barely gets on the court due to injury....
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Re: Game 17: Phoenix Suns (13-3) @ San Antonio Spurs (4-11), Monday, 6:30PM 

Post#119 » by King4Day » Tue Nov 23, 2021 8:14 pm

Regarding Ayton's drive and the 'waiting 3 years for that' comment...

I preface this by saying I know I'm a flea when compared to any player NBA, Pro, college, and most everything, but when I played rec league, I was being taught to do new things I wasn't used to. Including just something minor like when you post up and try to remember which pivot foot you are using that specific time on top of the specific move you are going to try to perform.

All of this is dependent on who you are posting, the players near you on both teams, the game situation (are you up big, down big, or are you in a tight game?). Even the spot on the floor. Every spot is different. An extra inch away from the basket can slightly alter how you proceed as you are still a new distance away from what you may be used to practicing.
There are so many nuances that have to be taken into account when it comes to learning to do big-man things. And most of it is very uncomfortable to perform because it's not easy and puts you in positions to do what you normally don't do.
Just the fact he has done a few of these drives...while it may seem miniscule to most, that gives me hope that in a few years, he can be the best big man in the entire league.
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Re: Game 17: Phoenix Suns (13-3) @ San Antonio Spurs (4-11), Monday, 6:30PM 

Post#120 » by bigfoot » Tue Nov 23, 2021 8:24 pm

sunsbg wrote:Haha Mikal is untouchable compared to DA. Imagine the comments in this thread if Deandre scored his first basket in the game with 5 mins left.


No one has ever questioned Bridges heart or motor. That's the difference. I think everyone knows Bridges is going to give 100% every time he steps on the floor. Most people are bashing the 80% effort version of Ayton. We should expect 100%. I could care less if he goes 0 for 10 if he's trying his best. We know he can do it. He just doesn't bring it every game.

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