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Game 17: Phoenix Suns (13-3) @ San Antonio Spurs (4-11), Monday, 6:30PM

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Re: Game 17: Phoenix Suns (13-3) @ San Antonio Spurs (4-11), Monday, 6:30PM 

Post#121 » by Slim Charless » Tue Nov 23, 2021 8:24 pm

MrMiyagi wrote:
sunsbg wrote:Haha Mikal is untouchable compared to DA. Imagine the comments in this thread if Deandre scored his first basket in the game with 5 mins left.
Jonathan Isaac is held in higher esteem than DA around these parts, and that dude barely gets on the court due to injury....


I'll chime in on that one, since I brought up Issac. For the record I want him to PAIR with Ayton, not replace. If anything I've said a healthy Issac is the best player to put next to Deandre. He'd be a 6'11 replacement for Mikal in a perfect him-being-healthy for the next 10 years world.
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Re: Game 17: Phoenix Suns (13-3) @ San Antonio Spurs (4-11), Monday, 6:30PM 

Post#122 » by sunsbg » Tue Nov 23, 2021 8:33 pm

bigfoot wrote:
sunsbg wrote:Haha Mikal is untouchable compared to DA. Imagine the comments in this thread if Deandre scored his first basket in the game with 5 mins left.


No one has ever questioned Bridges heart or motor. That's the difference. I think everyone knows Bridges is going to give 100% every time he steps on the floor. Most people are bashing the 80% effort version of Ayton. We should expect 100%. I could care less if he goes 0 for 10 if he's trying his best. We know he can do it. He just doesn't bring it every game.


I'll take 63 FG%, thanks.
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Re: Game 17: Phoenix Suns (13-3) @ San Antonio Spurs (4-11), Monday, 6:30PM 

Post#123 » by GoodBehavior » Tue Nov 23, 2021 9:55 pm

bigfoot wrote:
sunsbg wrote:Haha Mikal is untouchable compared to DA. Imagine the comments in this thread if Deandre scored his first basket in the game with 5 mins left.


No one has ever questioned Bridges heart or motor. That's the difference. I think everyone knows Bridges is going to give 100% every time he steps on the floor. Most people are bashing the 80% effort version of Ayton. We should expect 100%. I could care less if he goes 0 for 10 if he's trying his best. We know he can do it. He just doesn't bring it every game.


There's some truth to this. Ayton plays probably 100% for about 90% of the time. The other 10% of the time, it's really sloppy. In the playoff, he was lock-in throughout. Maybe the difference is due to playoff vs regular season. To be fair, only Mikal really gives it 100% of the time. For example, it has taken Booker close to 6 years before he gave passable effort on D.

The big difference between Book and DA is that Book is just a natural while DA is rough, and their development path shows it clearly. It's going to take him time to harness all that potential. The guy has been working hard on his 3 point shot and yet it's still frustratingly nonexistent. If he has a passable 3 point shot and can dribble hard to the rim, he's going to be damn near unstoppable.
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Re: Game 17: Phoenix Suns (13-3) @ San Antonio Spurs (4-11), Monday, 6:30PM 

Post#124 » by King4Day » Tue Nov 23, 2021 10:06 pm

Something I am really excited about is how locked in the team is. Sure, these wins against lesser competition hasn't been incredibly impressive, but we are still winning games when they get tight at the end. Like...we're winning almost all of them. That's showing the team has a goal in mind. We won't win all of these. We're going to lose games that we had a big lead in. But I bet we show up when the big teams come to play also.

Also, don't be put down if we struggle this trip. Especially in the later games. 5 games in 7 nights is no joke. If we can go 3-2, that's a win. We all know the team has Brooklyn on the back of their minds.
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Re: Game 17: Phoenix Suns (13-3) @ San Antonio Spurs (4-11), Monday, 6:30PM 

Post#125 » by Slim Charless » Tue Nov 23, 2021 10:18 pm

GoodBehavior wrote:
bigfoot wrote:
sunsbg wrote:Haha Mikal is untouchable compared to DA. Imagine the comments in this thread if Deandre scored his first basket in the game with 5 mins left.


No one has ever questioned Bridges heart or motor. That's the difference. I think everyone knows Bridges is going to give 100% every time he steps on the floor. Most people are bashing the 80% effort version of Ayton. We should expect 100%. I could care less if he goes 0 for 10 if he's trying his best. We know he can do it. He just doesn't bring it every game.


There's some truth to this. Ayton plays probably 100% for about 90% of the time. The other 10% of the time, it's really sloppy. In the playoff, he was lock-in throughout. Maybe the difference is due to playoff vs regular season. To be fair, only Mikal really gives it 100% of the time. For example, it has taken Booker close to 6 years before he gave passable effort on D.

The big difference between Book and DA is that Book is just a natural while DA is rough, and their development path shows it clearly. It's going to take him time to harness all that potential. The guy has been working hard on his 3 point shot and yet it's still frustratingly nonexistent. If he has a passable 3 point shot and can dribble hard to the rim, he's going to be damn near unstoppable.


I for one don't care about the 3 point shooting. I'd rather him focus on being a dominant force in the middle...and more aggressiveness. He should be looking to impose his will down low and on the glass every night. I could less about making him float around the perimeter like KAT. We have Landry/Book/CP3 and the Cams for the 3, let Ayton do work.
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Re: Game 17: Phoenix Suns (13-3) @ San Antonio Spurs (4-11), Monday, 6:30PM 

Post#126 » by Jdiddy701 » Tue Nov 23, 2021 10:32 pm

Just putting my two cents out there, but I also can care less about Ayton’s stats. If he’s aggressive and playing with intensity, his stats will play itself out. From what I’ve noticed, it looks like McGee’s play is rubbing of DA. DA looked very active yesterday - really hope that continues. The Suns are on a 13-game winning streak, that’s crazy. There shouldn’t be much complaints right now. Let’s keep going!!!


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Re: Game 17: Phoenix Suns (13-3) @ San Antonio Spurs (4-11), Monday, 6:30PM 

Post#127 » by lilfishi22 » Tue Nov 23, 2021 10:38 pm

sunsbg wrote:While we are at DA vs Luka again it's not like he doesn't get criticism. Just shows there are no perfect players.

https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=2140701#p94988022

His conditioning is pretty bad for a 22yo, who knows what he looks like at 27, much less at 33. Maybe there were red flags about that even at draft time and someone like Divac with inside sources decided to pass on him for this reason.

If we give Ayton leeway for being young then we should give the same to Luka who is even younger and has a significantly bigger load on his shoulders. Plenty of young players don't come into the league being absolute pros. I won't question Luka's motivation because anyone that is an MVP level player at his age almost certainly has plenty of motivation.
alamin330 wrote:This draft reminds me of the 2003 draft.
Lebron - Zion, Barrett like Melo, wade like Culver, garland like tj ford, hunter like bosh, white like Barbosa, Clarke like David West. I think this draft is actually going to be deeper though
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Re: Game 17: Phoenix Suns (13-3) @ San Antonio Spurs (4-11), Monday, 6:30PM 

Post#128 » by lilfishi22 » Tue Nov 23, 2021 10:52 pm

sunsbg wrote:
bigfoot wrote:
sunsbg wrote:Haha Mikal is untouchable compared to DA. Imagine the comments in this thread if Deandre scored his first basket in the game with 5 mins left.


No one has ever questioned Bridges heart or motor. That's the difference. I think everyone knows Bridges is going to give 100% every time he steps on the floor. Most people are bashing the 80% effort version of Ayton. We should expect 100%. I could care less if he goes 0 for 10 if he's trying his best. We know he can do it. He just doesn't bring it every game.


I'll take 63 FG%, thanks.

They aren't that far apart if you take away Mikal's valuable 41% from the arc. Ayton is just under 65% from inside the arc while Bridges is 62%.
alamin330 wrote:This draft reminds me of the 2003 draft.
Lebron - Zion, Barrett like Melo, wade like Culver, garland like tj ford, hunter like bosh, white like Barbosa, Clarke like David West. I think this draft is actually going to be deeper though
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Re: Game 17: Phoenix Suns (13-3) @ San Antonio Spurs (4-11), Monday, 6:30PM 

Post#129 » by lilfishi22 » Tue Nov 23, 2021 10:55 pm

Jdiddy701 wrote:Just putting my two cents out there, but I also can care less about Ayton’s stats. If he’s aggressive and playing with intensity, his stats will play itself out. From what I’ve noticed, it looks like McGee’s play is rubbing of DA. DA looked very active yesterday - really hope that continues. The Suns are on a 13-game winning streak, that’s crazy. There shouldn’t be much complaints right now. Let’s keep going!!!


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I thought DA looked great yesterday. He was super active with the putbacks and hustling for boards. Couldn't really fault him at all in the game. He's basically playing the exact way we need him to play in order for us to win. But he, like everyone else, will need to step up even further if we want to win against the great teams in the league which we have yet to face. But I feel like Ayton is a guy who has risen to the occasion in the playoffs so I hope to see him bring that same mindset and focus against the Brooklyn's and the Golden State's
alamin330 wrote:This draft reminds me of the 2003 draft.
Lebron - Zion, Barrett like Melo, wade like Culver, garland like tj ford, hunter like bosh, white like Barbosa, Clarke like David West. I think this draft is actually going to be deeper though
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Re: Game 17: Phoenix Suns (13-3) @ San Antonio Spurs (4-11), Monday, 6:30PM 

Post#130 » by lilfishi22 » Tue Nov 23, 2021 10:59 pm

Mulhollanddrive wrote:I'm still trying to understand the Javale McGee impact and how it may translate in playoffs (good and bad):

Past 2 games (29 minutes):
24 points
8 defensive rebounds
4 offensive rebounds
1 steal
75% FG
+24

But had 12 poor posessions:
4 shooting fouls
3 offensive fouls
3 turnovers
1 loose ball foul
1 offensive goaltending

I wouldn't worry too much. If we're not asking the world of him, he'll be an asset to us in the playoffs, as evidenced from the 3 rings he's earned with the Warriors and Lakers. He's not the McGee of old where he's a nightly Shaqtin candidate. He's still prone to mistakes but he's proven to be more of an asset than a liability to title winning teams so he's proven in that respect. It's just a matter of what you ask of him. If you ask too much then you're in for disappointment.
alamin330 wrote:This draft reminds me of the 2003 draft.
Lebron - Zion, Barrett like Melo, wade like Culver, garland like tj ford, hunter like bosh, white like Barbosa, Clarke like David West. I think this draft is actually going to be deeper though
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Re: Game 17: Phoenix Suns (13-3) @ San Antonio Spurs (4-11), Monday, 6:30PM 

Post#131 » by bwgood77 » Tue Nov 23, 2021 11:53 pm

King4Day wrote:Something I am really excited about is how locked in the team is. Sure, these wins against lesser competition hasn't been incredibly impressive, but we are still winning games when they get tight at the end. Like...we're winning almost all of them. That's showing the team has a goal in mind. We won't win all of these. We're going to lose games that we had a big lead in. But I bet we show up when the big teams come to play also.

Also, don't be put down if we struggle this trip. Especially in the later games. 5 games in 7 nights is no joke. If we can go 3-2, that's a win. We all know the team has Brooklyn on the back of their minds.


Yeah even the close ones against not great or teams with stars out, I'll take. Remember last year we were losing to the Wizards without Westbrook, Detroit, Houston and Sacramento early.
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Re: Game 17: Phoenix Suns (13-3) @ San Antonio Spurs (4-11), Monday, 6:30PM 

Post#132 » by Slim Charless » Wed Nov 24, 2021 1:02 am

lilfishi22 wrote:
sunsbg wrote:While we are at DA vs Luka again it's not like he doesn't get criticism. Just shows there are no perfect players.

https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=2140701#p94988022

His conditioning is pretty bad for a 22yo, who knows what he looks like at 27, much less at 33. Maybe there were red flags about that even at draft time and someone like Divac with inside sources decided to pass on him for this reason.

If we give Ayton leeway for being young then we should give the same to Luka who is even younger and has a significantly bigger load on his shoulders. Plenty of young players don't come into the league being absolute pros. I won't question Luka's motivation because anyone that is an MVP level player at his age almost certainly has plenty of motivation.


Luka has played significantly more basketball than Ayton. That was his biggest draw-the fact that he's been a champ at every level.

He doesn't get the same benefit of the doubt imo. That said, obviously he's been everything you could ever want-minus some interesting diva-like flags.
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Re: Game 17: Phoenix Suns (13-3) @ San Antonio Spurs (4-11), Monday, 6:30PM 

Post#133 » by lilfishi22 » Wed Nov 24, 2021 3:13 am

Slim Charless wrote:
lilfishi22 wrote:
sunsbg wrote:While we are at DA vs Luka again it's not like he doesn't get criticism. Just shows there are no perfect players.

https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=2140701#p94988022

His conditioning is pretty bad for a 22yo, who knows what he looks like at 27, much less at 33. Maybe there were red flags about that even at draft time and someone like Divac with inside sources decided to pass on him for this reason.

If we give Ayton leeway for being young then we should give the same to Luka who is even younger and has a significantly bigger load on his shoulders. Plenty of young players don't come into the league being absolute pros. I won't question Luka's motivation because anyone that is an MVP level player at his age almost certainly has plenty of motivation.


Luka has played significantly more basketball than Ayton. That was his biggest draw-the fact that he's been a champ at every level.

He doesn't get the same benefit of the doubt imo. That said, obviously he's been everything you could ever want-minus some interesting diva-like flags.

Talent and skill doesn't necessary mean he's mature. He's STILL a 22 year old
alamin330 wrote:This draft reminds me of the 2003 draft.
Lebron - Zion, Barrett like Melo, wade like Culver, garland like tj ford, hunter like bosh, white like Barbosa, Clarke like David West. I think this draft is actually going to be deeper though
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Re: Game 17: Phoenix Suns (13-3) @ San Antonio Spurs (4-11), Monday, 6:30PM 

Post#134 » by Slim Charless » Wed Nov 24, 2021 4:31 am

lilfishi22 wrote:
Slim Charless wrote:
lilfishi22 wrote:If we give Ayton leeway for being young then we should give the same to Luka who is even younger and has a significantly bigger load on his shoulders. Plenty of young players don't come into the league being absolute pros. I won't question Luka's motivation because anyone that is an MVP level player at his age almost certainly has plenty of motivation.


Luka has played significantly more basketball than Ayton. That was his biggest draw-the fact that he's been a champ at every level.

He doesn't get the same benefit of the doubt imo. That said, obviously he's been everything you could ever want-minus some interesting diva-like flags.

Talent and skill doesn't necessary mean he's mature. He's STILL a 22 year old


That's my point though. He is. He's been in locker rooms with grown men since he was 15 or so. Playing with guys who are trying to earn for their families while at the same Ayton was probably chilling on a beach in the Bahamas.

Different experiences growing up. Luka was supposed to be ready-which he has been. I give DA more lee-way, he's just getting used to this.

Add into the fact that he dealt with a messy situation at AZ before coming into the dumpster fire that was the pre-Monty Suns.
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Re: Game 17: Phoenix Suns (13-3) @ San Antonio Spurs (4-11), Monday, 6:30PM 

Post#135 » by lilfishi22 » Wed Nov 24, 2021 5:52 am

Slim Charless wrote:
lilfishi22 wrote:
Slim Charless wrote:
Luka has played significantly more basketball than Ayton. That was his biggest draw-the fact that he's been a champ at every level.

He doesn't get the same benefit of the doubt imo. That said, obviously he's been everything you could ever want-minus some interesting diva-like flags.

Talent and skill doesn't necessary mean he's mature. He's STILL a 22 year old


That's my point though. He is. He's been in locker rooms with grown men since he was 15 or so. Playing with guys who are trying to earn for their families while at the same Ayton was probably chilling on a beach in the Bahamas.

Different experiences growing up. Luka was supposed to be ready-which he has been. I give DA more lee-way, he's just getting used to this.

Add into the fact that he dealt with a messy situation at AZ before coming into the dumpster fire that was the pre-Monty Suns.

That wasn't the consensus pre-draft. There were a lot of doubters who as they always do, question the ability for Euro's to adapt to the NBA. Would he be quick enough, would he be able to handle NBA defenses, would he be able to shoot with his relatively slower shooting stroke and would his physicality translate in the NBA, there were a list of questions pre-draft and that's why he slipped even though he was a winner overseas. NBA Twitter loved him and had him very high (1 or 2) but NBA scouts had more questions. Most see the college route as the proven way to see how far a prospect is to being NBA ready or not and that's the path Ayton took. Ayton was the one with fewer question, the one who was the safer choice.

Luka is further along skill wise and probably talent wise coming into the league so he may be closer to his peak than Ayton but that's largely based on his NBA ready skills, his talent and his experience but he is still a 22 year old who still has life skills, leadership skills and maturing to do. Very few players come into the league with the maturity of a pros pro.

Even guys like Dudley didn't clean up his diet until a couple of years in Phoenix playing next to Nash.
alamin330 wrote:This draft reminds me of the 2003 draft.
Lebron - Zion, Barrett like Melo, wade like Culver, garland like tj ford, hunter like bosh, white like Barbosa, Clarke like David West. I think this draft is actually going to be deeper though
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Re: Game 17: Phoenix Suns (13-3) @ San Antonio Spurs (4-11), Monday, 6:30PM 

Post#136 » by Bogyo » Wed Nov 24, 2021 6:24 am

lilfishi22 wrote:
Slim Charless wrote:
lilfishi22 wrote:Talent and skill doesn't necessary mean he's mature. He's STILL a 22 year old


That's my point though. He is. He's been in locker rooms with grown men since he was 15 or so. Playing with guys who are trying to earn for their families while at the same Ayton was probably chilling on a beach in the Bahamas.

Different experiences growing up. Luka was supposed to be ready-which he has been. I give DA more lee-way, he's just getting used to this.

Add into the fact that he dealt with a messy situation at AZ before coming into the dumpster fire that was the pre-Monty Suns.

That wasn't the consensus pre-draft. There were a lot of doubters who as they always do, question the ability for Euro's to adapt to the NBA. Would he be quick enough, would he be able to handle NBA defenses, would he be able to shoot with his relatively slower shooting stroke and would his physicality translate in the NBA, there were a list of questions pre-draft and that's why he slipped even though he was a winner overseas. NBA Twitter loved him and had him very high (1 or 2) but NBA scouts had more questions. Most see the college route as the proven way to see how far a prospect is to being NBA ready or not and that's the path Ayton took. Ayton was the one with fewer question, the one who was the safer choice.

Luka is further along skill wise and probably talent wise coming into the league so he may be closer to his peak than Ayton but that's largely based on his NBA ready skills, his talent and his experience but he is still a 22 year old who still has life skills, leadership skills and maturing to do. Very few players come into the league with the maturity of a pros pro.

Even guys like Dudley didn't clean up his diet until a couple of years in Phoenix playing next to Nash.


Just for the record: If we had drafted Luka and he was a Sun, I'd be "on his asss" about his conditioning like I seem to be on Aytons for his faults. But again, it is what it is, you can't really-truly change a person usually. For Luka it's contitioning (and his Larry Bird body type, he is never gonna be ripped, but that is a bit different from conditioning), and for DA it's the mental part, and the effort. After their respective carreers the guy who fought his own "demon" better will have the better carreer overall.
(Likely, as injuries, sucky owners, GMs, coaches, teamates etc...can alter the picture in a big way)
Just for the record part 2: I've said multiple that Ayton should have gotten the rookie max extension this summer - even tho I'm scared that he will get lazy afterwards. So I'm not hating on the guy, he will just never be my favourite player for the reasons above. In my mindset, who am I really rooting for and why - the effort and making the most of your talent part comes before natural (and somewhat untapped) talent. Nothing wrong if anyone has the exact opposite view.

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