Game 61: Utah Jazz (37-22) @ Phoenix Suns (49-11) l Sunday l 1.30pm

[lilfishi22]

Not saying this is exactly what's going on. I can't read their minds but just based on what I saw and in the replays, it did seem like the "unspoken collective mindset" was to push it rather than call a timeout. Reviewing the play and everything this is what I believe the team was thinking

1. Secure the rebound/possession
2. After Crowder had possession, no one (not coach, not Book, no one) was indicating or calling for the TO so play on
3. We push it to see if we or Book can get a quick 3 against a Utah defense that isn't set
4. If the ball gets stuck on the way to the other side of the court, the Suns still have possession and still can call a timeout
5. Monty sees Booker running up the court and sees a defender in front of him so he knows at that point, they weren't going to advance it much further so that's when he attempts to call the timeout.
5. Pass, pass, bad pass. Lose possession. End

You could argue #2 is where the wrong decision was made and perhaps there was an error of judgement but I don't particularly mind because whether you call the TO or run it, they are both appropriate approaches. Now you could look back and say well this, this, this happened so obviously we should've called a TO but what if we actually executed the push properly and got the 3? Different story, so that's why I think the decision not to call a TO isn't the issue. And the Suns would have run these types of scenarios (pushing off the rebound) before in practice and whether it's miscommunication or just bad execution, it didn't work out. These decisions were made in a span of about 3 seconds from the rebound and mistakes were made.

I think up to #5 it was fine. There was still an option to get the ball to Book and to call a timeout with 5ish seconds left on the clock to run an ATO play. Crowder made a pretty appalling pass vaguely in the direction of Book which was impossible for him to receive and that was that. I think you just chop it up to a learning experience and move on.

[dremill24]

Two ridiculous bank 3s while falling over by Mitchell and a hapless lefty tip by Gobert on a terrible alley oop pass sting a lot more by the end of this too lol.

[bwgood77]

A set play 3 with 5 seconds to go would likely be very contested, I think pushing the ball to Booker was the right call just didn't execute it, good to experience these things before playoffs rather than go in 65-17 and then have to figure it out.

But isn't that what all teams practice late game situations for?? You'd personally have rather tried to break a defensive press with the clock winding down under 7 seconds and then by the time you made it into the frontcourt, you'd maybe at best have 1-3 seconds remaining IF LUCKY to try and score. At least if you called the timeout with a set play, you could be in position for a screen, to rebound a potential miss, and foul if necessary to extend the game with an opportunity to win or tie! I'll choose the timeout and a drawn-up play over chaos in the open court against a press and recovered defense.

We have had good plays with less time....I remember one with a few seconds where Booker came off a screen and hit a 3. Seems a lot of people think one of Monty's strengths is out of bounds plays.

[lilfishi22]

I don't think it is trash, they just aren't hitting their shots the last two games.

Cam off the bench means less minutes from him, and from the stats, far less points. Watching him tonight, he was our smartest player. It sucks watching him come in so late in the first and watching him get guarded heavier, being a primary shooter off the bench. He plays great with Bridges, he plays great with Ayton. We should maximize those three playing together, not lessen it.

I think it is a tricky issue, i agree Cam is our best starting 4, I also agree our bench could use some scoring atm and that I think we should start an actual PG next to Booker. I love cam next to Mikal too.

I know RDG has his strong view, but I don't know what the right solution is.

From previous data, Crowder does about the same scoring comparing starting and bench minutes (days at Miami on a finals team), as long as he averages about 26 minutes. So if he gets the same minutes regardless of starting or coming off the bench, and Cam gets almost 7 more points and shoots much better starting. I just don't see why we wouldn't want better shooting and scoring from a player, right? I mean, if I could make $7 more dollars an hour without having to change much, shouldn't I do it?

To me, individual numbers are not a good indicator of how well a line up plays. Westbrook doesn't fit at all with that starting Laker line up even though he puts up seemingly good raw numbers. Sometimes moving 18/8/7 to the bench might be the right course of action in order to maximise the team and not just the starting line up. A mismatch of player abilities with good individual numbers doesn't necessarily make a good team/line up.

I would like to see Cam score more just as I like to see Bridges score more but to me, the most important thing is the dynamics of the line ups and how you can maximise the line up, not just the individual player stat. It's a totally different dynamic when Cam is in the line up though? All things being equal, a line up with Cam is more dynamical offensively because he has better ball handling and creation abilities as opposed to Crowder who either shoots 3's or does his little pump fake and floater shot. Crowder almost never gets all the way to the rim whereas Cam can score from virtually anywhere on the court. When I look at the bench line up, you have:

Holiday: Better shooter/finisher than creator
Shamet: Better shooter than creator
Craig: Better finisher than shooter/creator
McGee: Better finisher than shooter/creator.

Just looking at that, what are we lacking? Shooting and creation. Not a single guy who can really create either for themselves or for others confidently or consistently. In my opinion pushing Crowder (better shooter than creator) to the bench over Cam doesn't really alleviate that issue. Both line ups could use Cam, no doubt about it but I do think the bench line up just needs him more. Bringing back a healthy and productive Payne would solve a significant portion of these issues but he hasn't been all that good this season and finding his form isn't a given. My position is, I would prefer to see Cam in the starting line up given our starting line up needs him more than the bench line up. I'm not convinced this is the case.

[Ghost of Kleine]

Thanks to Dallas for beating Golden State 107-101 for us tonight.

That's gotta suck for their obtuse fans, not being able to capitalize on our loss and close the gap!

[RunDogGun]

But you keep thinking from the mindset of playing a whole bench at the same time. I don't think we should ever do that. We should always stagger our line ups so two starters are always on the court. Booker often plays the whole first quarter, and sometimes Ayton as well, except for today for some reason.

For me it is a simple case of Math. We all agree that Cam should get close to 30 minutes. Moving him back to the bench, with Monty almost always bringing him in around the 4 min mark, there just isn't enough time and rest to get Cam to those minutes. He will play the most of those minutes with Bridges and Ayton and he plays great with both. With Cam coming off the bench, we usually run him now as Bridges' sub, and Craig as Crowder's sub. So overall, getting Cam close to 30 minutes gives us the best results from him, and getting him going as early as possible means he should start, and get the first three point shot. He just plays so much better and smarter when given the start.

I am not saying our starters need the 7 more points that Cam provides, I am saying the team as a whole needs those points, especially while CP is out. The only way I see that, is to start him. Right now though, we need to start a pg, for it looks like Booker is being overused. He doesn't normally miss two free throws when he did today.

I really thought we got Shamet to be the Booker 2.0, he makes the same types of moves. Holiday doesn't normally shoot this badly, and Craig might get a few less minutes while we juggle the wing rotations. Only Holiday got more than 13 minutes off the bench with 21 minutes, so that really isn't much of a "bench unit". Moreover, as we graduate into playoff mode, the rotations will get smaller, and I would just rather see the team like the bubble.

[RunDogGun]

Thanks to Dallas for beating Golden State 107-101 for us tonight.

That's gotta suck for their obtuse fans, not being able to capitalize on our loss and close the gap!

And they got outscored in the 4th 33 to 13.

[lilfishi22]

But you keep thinking from the mindset of playing a whole bench at the same time. I don't think we should ever do that. We should always stagger our line ups so two starters are always on the court. Booker often plays the whole first quarter, and sometimes Ayton as well, except for today for some reason.

For me it is a simple case of Math. We all agree that Cam should get close to 30 minutes. Moving him back to the bench, with Monty almost always bringing him in around the 4 min mark, there just isn't enough time and rest to get Cam to those minutes. He will play the most of those minutes with Bridges and Ayton and he plays great with both. With Cam coming off the bench, we usually run him now as Bridges' sub, and Craig as Crowder's sub. So overall, getting Cam close to 30 minutes gives us the best results from him, and getting him going as early as possible means he should start, and get the first three point shot. He just plays so much better and smarter when given the start.

I am not saying our starters need the 7 more points that Cam provides, I am saying the team as a whole needs those points, especially while CP is out. The only way I see that, is to start him. Right now though, we need to start a pg, for it looks like Booker is being overused. He doesn't normally miss two free throws when he did today.

I really thought we got Shamet to be the Booker 2.0, he makes the same types of moves. Holiday doesn't normally shoot this badly, and Craig might get a few less minutes while we juggle the wing rotations. Only Holiday got more than 13 minutes off the bench with 21 minutes, so that really isn't much of a "bench unit". Moreover, as we graduate into playoff mode, the rotations will get smaller, and I would just rather see the team like the bubble.

I'm not. When you come off the bench you're simply more likely to be playing along side 2, 3 or 4 of these players.

I agree we need to start a PG because Book at the moment being a PG and our go-to scorer is just not something he's ever been comfortable or successful being. That being said, I don't think that really solves bench issue. You start a PG (Elf, Holiday, Payne), you move everyone back to their more positions and but then you lose one starting spot. I assume you would like to see Cam start and I'm guessing we'd have to bring Crowder off the bench then? So how does that address the inadequacies of our bench? Crowder is simply too limited to help the bench's shot creation problems.

I don't know what the answer is but right now we need a scorer off the bench more than ever and even with a healthy Payne, he's the only guy capable of creating and averaging double digit points (inefficiently might I add) and the only other guy capable of creating his own shot, bringing that dynamic offense to the table and average more than 10ppg is Cam.

[RunDogGun]

When Cam and Ayton came out of the game(5;39 mark), we were 24-13 ahead. Craig came in for Crowder at the 4:06 mark (the normal sub time that Cam comes in off the bench, which means this is a regular rotation move by Monty) and it was 26-20. So that was a 7-2 run in 1.5 minutes by Utah. Shamet comes in for Bridges at the 1:34 mark and the score is 32-27. Booker never comes out, and we end the first tied at 32. We never have a full bench unit in the first, and without Cam and Ayton we are outscored 19 to 8.

Cam starts the 2nd in place of Booker with a full bench group. We are down by one when Ayton comes in for McGee at the 10:26 mark 37-36, and Cam makes his 2nd free throw and ties it. Mikal comes in at the 8 minute mark for Craig, and we are still tied at 39. Crowder for Shamet at the 7 minute mark tied at 41. Booker in for Holiday at the same time, then end the half with our starters except Cam because Holiday comes in for Cam at the 2;49 mark.

We never once have a full bench in the first half. The largest bench to starter ratio is 4 to 1, with the one starter being Booker in the first quarter for 1.5 minutes, and Cam to start the second for 1.5 minutes.

So Cam can start, and play with the bench unit, and we keep a "shot creator" on the floor at all times. Cam ends with 35 minutes, and Booker with 40. Side note, Cam takes his last shot at the 6 minute mark of the forth. Ending 7 for 11, 4 for 6 from 3, and we lose by 4.

[RunDogGun]

I'm not. When you come off the bench you're simply more likely to be playing along side 2, 3 or 4 of these players.

I agree we need to start a PG because Book at the moment being a PG and our go-to scorer is just not something he's ever been comfortable or successful being. That being said, I don't think that really solves bench issue. You start a PG (Elf, Holiday, Payne), you move everyone back to their more positions and but then you lose one starting spot. I assume you would like to see Cam start and I'm guessing we'd have to bring Crowder off the bench then? So how does that address the inadequacies of our bench? Crowder is simply too limited to help the bench's shot creation problems.

I don't know what the answer is but right now we need a scorer off the bench more than ever and even with a healthy Payne, he's the only guy capable of creating and averaging double digit points (inefficiently might I add) and the only other guy capable of creating his own shot, bringing that dynamic offense to the table and average more than 10ppg is Cam.

But when Cam comes off the bench, he only averages 10.8 points, so that really isn't much. And Holiday didn't take a three today, and so far he is 6-8. Could be he was unsure about taking a three because of his recent injury. I would like to limit our bench, except if we bring Crowder off the bench, for I still would like to give him 26+ minutes. Cam get his 30 splitting time at the 3 and 4, but can only get that with Monty's rotations if he starts, and Bridges 30+ minutes. And Craig gets the remaining minutes.

When Payne returns, that only alters the minutes at the 1-2 spot, where we run Payne at 28 minutes, Booker at 34+, and Holiday the rest. I wouldn't play Shamet or Payton again if we don't have to.

[Revived]

Regardless of timeouts being called or whatever but that was a SHT pass from Crowder. I mean, no one was close to him and he could've made a direct pass to Book but instead he went with a confused half-assed lob pass which was way too high.

But Crowder should never be in position to make that pass. It’s not his job to bring the ball up and he looked uncomfortable doing it. That’s why he got rid of it Cam to immediately but then Cam got a double and had to throw it back. Booker should’ve came back and got the ball.

But even then they would’ve doubled him and forced someone else to bring the ball up court.

That’s why calling a timeout and advancing it forward so that bringing the ball up wouldn’t be a concern was an obvious move.

Yes I know. I'm just saying regardless of all the decisions that led to the ball in Crowder's hand, he couldn't even make a run of the mill pass.

Looks like he inspired DeAndre Jordan

Read on Twitter

[RunDogGun]

But Crowder should never be in position to make that pass. It’s not his job to bring the ball up and he looked uncomfortable doing it. That’s why he got rid of it Cam to immediately but then Cam got a double and had to throw it back. Booker should’ve came back and got the ball.

But even then they would’ve doubled him and forced someone else to bring the ball up court.

That’s why calling a timeout and advancing it forward so that bringing the ball up wouldn’t be a concern was an obvious move.

Yes I know. I'm just saying regardless of all the decisions that led to the ball in Crowder's hand, he couldn't even make a run of the mill pass.

Looks like he inspired DeAndre Jordan

Read on Twitter

[lilfishi22]

I'm not. When you come off the bench you're simply more likely to be playing along side 2, 3 or 4 of these players.

I agree we need to start a PG because Book at the moment being a PG and our go-to scorer is just not something he's ever been comfortable or successful being. That being said, I don't think that really solves bench issue. You start a PG (Elf, Holiday, Payne), you move everyone back to their more positions and but then you lose one starting spot. I assume you would like to see Cam start and I'm guessing we'd have to bring Crowder off the bench then? So how does that address the inadequacies of our bench? Crowder is simply too limited to help the bench's shot creation problems.

I don't know what the answer is but right now we need a scorer off the bench more than ever and even with a healthy Payne, he's the only guy capable of creating and averaging double digit points (inefficiently might I add) and the only other guy capable of creating his own shot, bringing that dynamic offense to the table and average more than 10ppg is Cam.

But when Cam comes off the bench, he only averages 10.8 points, so that really isn't much. And Holiday didn't take a three today, and so far he is 6-8. Could be he was unsure about taking a three because of his recent injury. I would like to limit our bench, except if we bring Crowder off the bench, for I still would like to give him 26+ minutes. Cam get his 30 splitting time at the 3 and 4, but can only get that with Monty's rotations if he starts, and Bridges 30+ minutes. And Craig gets the remaining minutes.

When Payne returns, that only alters the minutes at the 1-2 spot, where we run Payne at 28 minutes, Booker at 34+, and Holiday the rest. I wouldn't play Shamet or Payton again if we don't have to.

He also plays less minutes and takes fewer shots off the bench. Off the bench he's mostly played alongside Payne who hasn't been good this season while taking more shots than last season as well. Playing off the bench generally means playing alongside a guy who's a significant step down from CP3 so the open shots and shots in generally will be harder to come by but that's why we need another guy who can create playing alongside some bench heavy line ups where there's 2-3 bench guys.

It's no secret starting means he's playing generally with a HOF PG, a elite SG who also passes well and two guys who aren't actively looking for their own shots so the opportunities are going to be there and the counting stats will be MUCH easier to accumulate. Everyone who has started and played alongside CP3/Booker put up betters stats. Shamet averaged 10pts and shot 41% from 3. Bismark is a walking double double when he starts. McGee has a much higher offensive rating, grabs more rebounds and scores more when he starts. Jalen Smith looked legit AF starting the game alongside CP3.

The problem as I've mentioned is that we're down that HOF PG, we're our primary back up PG and Cam is still able to score and score relatively efficiently. That skillset is valuable and I'm only suggesting now more so than ever, we could use that scoring and creation with the bench guys. Does it mean he has to come off the bench? Not necessarily but looking at our bench scoring over the past two games, perhaps Cam off the bench makes sense and Monty isn't the most creative with his rotations so Cam coming off the bench better aligns his minutes with line ups featuring a few bench guys who do need his scoring.

[lilfishi22]

But Crowder should never be in position to make that pass. It’s not his job to bring the ball up and he looked uncomfortable doing it. That’s why he got rid of it Cam to immediately but then Cam got a double and had to throw it back. Booker should’ve came back and got the ball.

But even then they would’ve doubled him and forced someone else to bring the ball up court.

That’s why calling a timeout and advancing it forward so that bringing the ball up wouldn’t be a concern was an obvious move.

Yes I know. I'm just saying regardless of all the decisions that led to the ball in Crowder's hand, he couldn't even make a run of the mill pass.

Looks like he inspired DeAndre Jordan

Read on Twitter

It all about the stage where it happened.

JR Smith >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Crowder>>>>>>>>DAJ

[Funky Tut]

We win this game by 15 with CP3. Not even tripping on this loss , it’s the NO loss that annoys me.

[King4Day]

The Warriors loss def helps take the sting out of this one a bit.
I'm not upset about the Crowder pass. I'm upset at the rebounding problems we continue to have.
I'd like to see Monty inject Bizmack in at some point to see if he can fix some of this

[Jdiddy701]

We win this game by 15 with CP3. Not even tripping on this loss , it’s the NO loss that annoys me.

I’m not sure we win either game with CP3. Defense has been pretty bad. We’ll figure out. I am not worried one bit.


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[ImNotMcDiSwear]

Anyone else actually pretty encouraged by this game? Point Book with the starters was killer. Ayton looking like a #1 option. Cam Jo a straight killer. The fact that our bench got wrecked reflects poorly on our depth this season, but looking at the big picture, I saw lots of reason to believe that our core guys can continue to contend beyond CP3's tenure.

[RunDogGun]

He also plays less minutes and takes fewer shots off the bench. Off the bench he's mostly played alongside Payne who hasn't been good this season while taking more shots than last season as well. Playing off the bench generally means playing alongside a guy who's a significant step down from CP3 so the open shots and shots in generally will be harder to come by but that's why we need another guy who can create playing alongside some bench heavy line ups where there's 2-3 bench guys.

It's no secret starting means he's playing generally with a HOF PG, a elite SG who also passes well and two guys who aren't actively looking for their own shots so the opportunities are going to be there and the counting stats will be MUCH easier to accumulate. Everyone who has started and played alongside CP3/Booker put up betters stats. Shamet averaged 10pts and shot 41% from 3. Bismark is a walking double double when he starts. McGee has a much higher offensive rating, grabs more rebounds and scores more when he starts. Jalen Smith looked legit AF starting the game alongside CP3.

The problem as I've mentioned is that we're down that HOF PG, we're our primary back up PG and Cam is still able to score and score relatively efficiently. That skillset is valuable and I'm only suggesting now more so than ever, we could use that scoring and creation with the bench guys. Does it mean he has to come off the bench? Not necessarily but looking at our bench scoring over the past two games, perhaps Cam off the bench makes sense and Monty isn't the most creative with his rotations so Cam coming off the bench better aligns his minutes with line ups featuring a few bench guys who do need his scoring.

He hasn't been playing with CP3 the last three games, and is scoring more than his average when starting with CP3. We are down a HOF pg like you said, so we need to make up for those points. If Crowder (from past data) scores about the same coming off the bench as he does when starting when getting 26 minutes, and Cam scores on average, seven more points, that means we have already made up for the 14 points CP3 averages, only needing to cover 7 more points for the bench. Cam's average is already covered. We don't need Cam's points coming off the bench, we needs Cam's points total throughout the game, and the best way to get the 17+ points we need from him, is starting him, and getting him going early.

As we saw from last night, Cam can start, and still be the "shot creator" with 4 bench players starting the second quarter. Moving him back to the bench will most likely cut his minutes back to 24, and decrease his shots and points. Last night, showed that Monty can manage the squads keeping either Booker or Johnson on the court at all times, which satisfies your concern.

[RunDogGun]

Anyone else actually pretty encouraged by this game? Point Book with the starters was killer. Ayton looking like a #1 option. Cam Jo a straight killer. The fact that our bench got wrecked reflects poorly on our depth this season, but looking at the big picture, I saw lots of reason to believe that our core guys can continue to contend beyond CP3's tenure.

I liked how we played, and I hope that Criag and Holiday won't have stinker shooting games like they did last night. Shamet only took one shot, so I don't know if he is hesitant to shoot, because he has been shooting poorly. McGee was having a rougher time as well, but going up against Gobert and Whiteside, with their ability to push and shove, and do many moving screens, its got to be hard for any center.

Overall, I think our bench will start shooting better soon.