Game 63: New York Knicks (25-37) @ Phoenix Suns (50-12) | Friday | 8.00pm AZT | ESPN

[bwgood77]

He's shown he can create a lot more this year with his hook shot if he gets the ball in close range, even if well guarded. He could develop more. He also had some pretty big games last year in the playoffs when Paul was out. He had 44 pts on 76% shooting in games 1 and 2 against the Clips along with 23 rebounds. Just no chemistry at all with Payne right now with Payne in his first couple games back.

I wouldn’t even say Ayton is completely reliant on others. He has some go-to moves like the face up mid range jumper, the hook shot from back to the basket, and the fadeaway jumper from the post too. What he is reliant on is getting the ball in an optimal position when he is posting up, but everyone just double teams him so he’s forced to give up the ball and what should be an open man somewhere.
CP3 is good at making average big men look better but once CP3 is gone we no longer have a center or PG. I assume if we didn’t keep Ayton we’d be getting lesser players for around $25 million, and then probably giving Cam Jo a similar contract to Bridges.
Why not just max Ayton, keep Bridges, possibly go into the luxury tax for a year and reevaluate afterwards. I just don’t see a world where we let Ayton go, even in a S&T kind of deal where Suns get assets back and actually improve with a lesser center and spare parts. Ayton is probably the 4th best center in the league maybe 5th after Bam, KAT, Embiid, Jokic. All those guys got max (not sure about Bam) and then Gobert got max. I’d probably take Ayton over KAT and Bam with this current roster too.

That's what I'm saying. Anyone can get a shot off, even if it means getting blocked or missing the shot but it's him creating that availability for passes that is a major issue, even in year 4.

He's not as bad as getting open (though he could improve) as you suggest unless doubled, but last night being doubled and not getting open we made him pay with our shooters.

[lilfishi22]

On vacation, so I missed the game. I guess you guys were right, Cam Johnson is totally a bench player, and we in no way need to start him to get him started as early as possible. We should wait as long as we possible can to bring him into the game, maybe he has ten more game winners in him.

Well, he didn't start and still got 38pts, so this game is not exactly a good example to defend your point.

I don't think people are against him starting, more like understand Monty's arguments for bringing him off the bench. And I'm sure nobody is against him finishing the games or playing more minutes if Crowder is not shooting well.

If he can drop 38 off the bench and still play the minutes he played, why is it such a big deal that he can't do that off the bench? Oh and he also didn't play with Book or CP3 but with Payne for the most part who has been his primary running partner.

I'm totally for Cam starting but the sky isn't falling because Cam is coming off the bench but still playing the same role

[lilfishi22]

I wouldn’t even say Ayton is completely reliant on others. He has some go-to moves like the face up mid range jumper, the hook shot from back to the basket, and the fadeaway jumper from the post too. What he is reliant on is getting the ball in an optimal position when he is posting up, but everyone just double teams him so he’s forced to give up the ball and what should be an open man somewhere.
CP3 is good at making average big men look better but once CP3 is gone we no longer have a center or PG. I assume if we didn’t keep Ayton we’d be getting lesser players for around $25 million, and then probably giving Cam Jo a similar contract to Bridges.
Why not just max Ayton, keep Bridges, possibly go into the luxury tax for a year and reevaluate afterwards. I just don’t see a world where we let Ayton go, even in a S&T kind of deal where Suns get assets back and actually improve with a lesser center and spare parts. Ayton is probably the 4th best center in the league maybe 5th after Bam, KAT, Embiid, Jokic. All those guys got max (not sure about Bam) and then Gobert got max. I’d probably take Ayton over KAT and Bam with this current roster too.

That's what I'm saying. Anyone can get a shot off, even if it means getting blocked or missing the shot but it's him creating that availability for passes that is a major issue, even in year 4.

He's not as bad as getting open (though he could improve) as you suggest unless doubled, but last night being doubled and not getting open we made him pay with our shooters.

The only times he gets the ball without much defense is when he's outside of his shooting range. He doesn't try and establish position often and when he does, if our other players miss him then it's all their fault for missing him. But it's not like the top C's in the league give up establishing position because they are being well defended. They keep trying

[WeekapaugGroove]

Yeah obviously can't let Ayton walk for nothing. My prediction is they let him go get an offer sheet and then match it. Then in a year or two they trade him and his salary slot for Paul's replacement.

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What about C then?

Honestly I think with Booker, Mikal and Cam, Payne and/or Holiday will be fine as PGs. I think they both get better. Holiday will be good. He is already shooting very well from 3 with us. I don't think we need an elite PG as our 2/3/4 improve. I think once Paul is gone, if we keep those guys as PGs we are ok to keep Ayton but I think if we trade it will be for a cheaper C.

Find another one. But who the hell knows and for all we know maybe Paul plays into his 40s.

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[Slim Charless]

Mitchell is good at a few things. High FG% but no range...15 shots all season outside of 3 ft...8 ppg. Good shot blocker but chases a lot. Pretty solid rim protector. Bad at a lot of things. Even the way things looked tonight, Robinson and Ayton get the same # of rebounds per 36.

It was definitely the worst game I've ever seen Ayton play. I don't know what was up with him. Won't make a ton of judgements on him off one game, especially with some of the things he's added this year like becoming elite with that hook shot and better from mid range but he can't have a few games like this in a row...or really many ever at all.

Mitchell sounds like the Centers that played with Michael Jordan. He also has the same range as Shaq. He also would fit right in with the Rick Barry Warriors. By the way who played center for the recent Warriors led by Curry. No cheating and looking up the name or names. How many championships did they win with that unknown center.

The facts are the teams that win the most now and in the past have been exceptional at the wings. That is where we need to spend our money. At all cost we need to keep Booker, Cam Johnson and Mikal Bridges while finding a suitable replacement for CP3 when he retires. If we blow all of our money on Ayton we are screwed.

I was thinking last night Ayton reminds me in ways of Shaq. Not in play as much as effort. Shaq often was lazy most of the regular season (moreso than Ayton actually) but would say he just needs to be ready for the playoffs. A lot of this was because he would come into the season VERY out of shape and work his way into shape throughout the season.

This was a big reason Kobe was so irritated with him because he didn't think he has the work ethic or desire to win that Kobe had. Ayton doesn't have nearly as much overall talent as Shaq of course, but is better at some things (free throws, guarding wings, shooting range), etc, just doesn't have the low post dominance. But both step up big time for the playoffs.

Again, not a comparison with Shaq outside of him reminding me of lacking effort or seemingly caring, not to the extent Shaq did for half the season and until playoffs but similar.

That's funny since I never thought that Shaq was that talented. He was just big. He did have very soft hands for a guy his size and was a decent passer later in his career. He never was a good defender and yes, he always played himself into shape. Ayton has more natural talent and can do more things on the court.

I remember telling friends back in those days if Shaq had half the desire and drive Kobe did then he'd be known as a better player than Jordan. I still feel like we never really got to see him fully going at 100%

He was just lazy and could get away with half assing it.

[RunDogGun]

On vacation, so I missed the game. I guess you guys were right, Cam Johnson is totally a bench player, and we in no way need to start him to get him started as early as possible. We should wait as long as we possible can to bring him into the game, maybe he has ten more game winners in him.

Well, he didn't start and still got 38pts, so this game is not exactly a good example to defend your point.

I don't think people are against him starting, more like understand Monty's arguments for bringing him off the bench. And I'm sure nobody is against him finishing the games or playing more minutes if Crowder is not shooting well.

If he can drop 38 off the bench and still play the minutes he played, why is it such a big deal that he can't do that off the bench? Oh and he also didn't play with Book or CP3 but with Payne for the most part who has been his primary running partner.

I'm totally for Cam starting but the sky isn't falling because Cam is coming off the bench but still playing the same role

If he can score 38 from the bench, and someone who is not better than him is starting in his place, why do that? I’m not saying the sky is falling, but it’s increasingly not smart to do that. Because he came in at the 5 min mark, got hit, and had to come out a minute later, he had to play 27 out of the next 36 minutes just to make it to 28 minutes. It also took him a few shots to get going. His first shot comes during the first minute of the second. I just don’t see how that makes sense, to have such a weapon, used that late into a game. CamJo, can get hot with anyone passing him the ball, so it doesn’t matter who his “running partner” is. He and Mikal are great partners. With both Booker and CP3 out, we have no one else that can really get that hot, and score that much. Why not use it, instead of waiting so long? Oh well, Monty will figure it out in about 7-8 games, and eventually do what I am suggesting, like he did with Bridges for Saric, and then again Cam for Saric.

[Revived]

Capable of making 9 threes in a game but not good enough for the 3pt contest according to Adam Silver lol. Even with heavy campaigning from all Suns players including prominent ones like CP3 and Booker.

[cberry78]

Anybody seen a dead horse around here anywhere?

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[bwgood77]

Anybody seen a dead horse around here anywhere?

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No, just dried up blood on the ground.

[RunDogGun]

Anybody seen a dead horse around here anywhere?

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It’s a whole new situation right now, so while the desire is the same, the variables are completely different. But maybe instead of throwing up a lame comment, actually comment on the topic? But back to the Ayton saga everyone else has been talking about that really has no effect until this summer.

[cberry78]

Anybody seen a dead horse around here anywhere?

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It’s a whole new situation right now, so while the desire is the same, the variables are completely different. But maybe instead of throwing up a lame comment, actually comment on the topic? But back to the Ayton saga everyone else has been talking about that really has no effect until this summer.

Actually no, the variables are still the same. It's you, your desire for CamJ to start, and your incessant screaming into the void on multiple threads how Monty isn't doing what you want. Even though CamJ just had a career night off the bench and hit the game-winner off the glass 3 for his 9th 3 pointer of the night, you still complain about how things aren't what you want them to be......EVERYBODY ON THIS FORUM KNOWS THAT YOU WANT CAMJ TO START.

Give it a rest man....use your energy, and our time, arguing something new.

[RunDogGun]

Anybody seen a dead horse around here anywhere?

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It’s a whole new situation right now, so while the desire is the same, the variables are completely different. But maybe instead of throwing up a lame comment, actually comment on the topic? But back to the Ayton saga everyone else has been talking about that really has no effect until this summer.

Actually no, the variables are still the same. It's you, your desire for CamJ to start, and your incessant screaming into the void on multiple threads how Monty isn't doing what you want. Even though CamJ just had a career night off the bench and hit the game-winner off the glass 3 for his 9th 3 pointer of the night, you still complain about how things aren't what you want them to be......EVERYBODY ON THIS FORUM KNOWS THAT YOU WANT CAMJ TO START.

Give it a rest man....use your energy, and our time, arguing something new.

Monty literally said he wants to start a campaign to get CamJo more shots the other day. He has the power do this by starting him and giving him more minutes to accomplish this so-called campaign. So that right there is a new variable. Next we are down two starters, and started the Sham twice, new variable. And then Cam just lit it up for a career high of 38 points, which no other healthy player can do for our team. That is another variable, that should change the equation.

So I’ve heard how you don’t like my comments, but do you have your own? Or just don’t care that our coach can’t seem to find a way to do what he himself says he wants?

Side note: there are at least 10 posts a day about back and forths on Ayton, max player/not, who to trade for, etc. And these pop up in every thread, and there is absolutely nothing we can do about Ayton until this summer. There are always those posts you can troll.

[RunDogGun]

Randle was fined $50k for his crap he pulled “after” he got ejected? I never really thought of him as a dirty player, but he was throwing elbows a lot in that game, and multiple times at CamJo. I hope the league really looks into this. From what I have seen, Cam is probably one of the nicest players on and off the court. Maybe I’ve heard wrong.